Is folk a dirty four-letter word?

Subject: RE: Is folk a dirty four-letter word?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 11 Jan 22 - 07:25 AM

well seeing as the word 'folk' has created such division - perhaps that is no bad thing

Subject: RE: Is folk a dirty four-letter word?
From: GUEST,Roderick A. Warner
Date: 11 Jan 22 - 09:03 AM

Point taken, Dave. But I’ve heard more bad acoustic guitar players then amplified ones down the years I’ve attended gigs in various venues in several countries. I’ve heard a lot of great music in ‘folk clubs’ and a fearful amount of bungling crap. In fact, can’t think of any bad amplified guitar players, off hand.

Subject: RE: Is folk a dirty four-letter word?
From: rosma
Date: 11 Jan 22 - 09:10 AM

I've read about half of this thread (sorry if I'm repeating what's in the other half). It reminds me of something I mused recently. An acquaintance of mine is a shanty singer. He has been known to look down his nose a little at popular shanty groups.

I am perfectly aware of "traditional" shanty singing, but I relatively recently saw The Longest Johns a few times and have been inspired to sing some of the songs they sing, whether or not I'd heard them before.

My acquaintance recently referred to hearing a recording of The Longest Johns and described it as being the worst he'd heard them sing. He described it though in a way that showed somewhere deep down some sort of admiration for them.

I pointed out to another acquaintance that popular folk-like performers, particularly those who sing traditional or near-traditional songs, are capable of acting as a gateway drug which could, with the right attitude from us, get more people into folk clubs and sessions. If we sing a shanty in a traditional way, for example, and they recognise it, they may sing along, and they may even be drawn further in to listening to that type, and perhaps other types of folk music.

Subject: RE: Is folk a dirty four-letter word?
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 11 Jan 22 - 10:58 AM

Good points, rosma. Regarding chanties, they are today 100% heritage related entertainment and are totally away from the original context, so that means they can be performed in any way the performers feel fit. It is a personal preference to me to sing them in as close a way as I can to what I envisage was the original style, with the proviso I have other preferences, i.e., I enjoy singing in a group and improvising harmonies. I doubt very much any harmonising was involved with the originals. What I'm trying to say rather clumsily is there is no right way or wrong way, it all comes down to personal preference. We are entertaining/educating so we should make the best stab at that if we wish to succeed.

Subject: RE: Is folk a dirty four-letter word?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 11 Jan 22 - 02:37 PM

I had this discussion with someone from a shanty group, Steve. Yes, they were work songs and I would certainly concur that no-one purposely put any harmonies in. However, harmony happens whether it is meant to or not. Get a group of a dozen or so people singing and, whether by design or accident, some will be harmonising. May be because there are some notes they cannot reach. May be because that is what they hear. Could be many other reasons. But he was insisting that shanties should be in pure unison because that is how they were sung. That was probably as they were intended but I doubt that is they way they came out!

Nowt to do with the thread of course but an interesting enough aside I think :-)

Subject: RE: Is folk a dirty four-letter word?
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 11 Jan 22 - 03:41 PM

When you're breaking your back with exertion musical niceties were the last thing to be taken care of. The only consideration was keeping in time.

Subject: RE: Is folk a dirty four-letter word?
From: The Sandman
Date: 11 Jan 22 - 04:00 PM

That was probably as they were intended but I doubt that is they way they came out!"
speculation and guess work

Subject: RE: Is folk a dirty four-letter word?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 11 Jan 22 - 04:03 PM

Exactly, Steve. They would have been sung with a complete disregard of keeping to the tune or words. Bit like some floorsingers :-) I reckon that it would have been pretty difficult to hear anything but the rhythm at times anyway!

Subject: RE: Is folk a dirty four-letter word?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 11 Jan 22 - 04:15 PM

I suppose it is, Dick. Which is why I said I doubt rather than I know. It is a fact that some people will automatically harmonise though so I will still say it is likely that in any situation where a group of people are singing, some will be harmonising. They may not intend to or even know they are doing it but some will do it all the same.

Subject: RE: Is folk a dirty four-letter word?
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 11 Jan 22 - 05:28 PM

There is a likelihood that heaving chanties in port or in less strenuous circumstances might have afforded the luxury of harmony on occasion, but I can't see it with hauling chanties whilst out at sea.

Subject: RE: Is folk a dirty four-letter word?
From: GUEST,Phil d'Conch
Date: 11 Jan 22 - 06:16 PM

Steve: "...100% heritage related entertainment...."

Why do I get the feeling no actual maths were used in this statement?

Less drift here methinks: What is a Shanty

Subject: RE: Is folk a dirty four-letter word?
From: rosma
Date: 11 Jan 22 - 08:28 PM

Although I used shanty singers and pseudo-shanty singers as my example, I didn't intend to mean it would apply exclusively to shanty singing.

Subject: RE: Is folk a dirty four-letter word?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 11 Jan 22 - 09:37 PM

Threads like this always make me nervous, but I guess they have to be. What I like to do with threads like this is to let them run their natural course, and then close them quietly once they've died down so nobody can refresh them and peel the scab off the wounds.
-Joe-

Subject: RE: Is folk a dirty four-letter word?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 12 Jan 22 - 02:55 AM

well feel free to expunge anything I say that you think might be contentious. I don't claim to be an expert on anything

Subject: RE: Is folk a dirty four-letter word?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 Jan 22 - 07:46 AM

Actually, Joe, it makes me nervous too. I feel that one of the reasons that we folkies are often seen as a somewhat impenetrable set apart, in which it's rather hard to do anything without being criticised for doing something or other wrong or a bit untraditional, is that we indulge ourselves in long bouts of looking inward, as in many a thread like this one. As a relative outsider (a harmonica player of traditional, mostly Irish, music) I feel rather fortunate in that I can so explicitly and so boldly "do the wrong thing" that I never get criticised for it!

Subject: RE: Is folk a dirty four-letter word?
From: the lemonade lady
Date: 12 Jan 22 - 12:00 PM

We've found it a bit of a hurdle when getting gigs. Once I mention folk, I can hear the interest drain out of their enthusiasm. I now say that our genre is progressive folk with attitude.

Www.miceinamatchbox.co.uk

Subject: RE: Is folk a dirty four-letter word?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 13 Jan 22 - 02:53 AM

"Progressive folk with attitude." Ah, that's the formula!!
Cheers!
-Joe-

Subject: RE: Is folk a dirty four-letter word?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 18 Jan 22 - 11:06 AM

But is progressive folk with attitude folk? :-D

Subject: RE: Is folk a dirty four-letter word?
From: The Sandman
Date: 18 Jan 22 - 12:28 PM

i get gigs without having t9o mention the word folk, that is because i have been playing in folk clubs and festivals for over 46 years and have a track record.
i get gigs in ireland on the strength of my singing.
if someone approached me for a gig at the festival i run and said they do progressive folk with attitude.
I would think it was an entry for Pseuds Corner.
using the term progresive folk with attitude is just a load of bullshit, being progressive is a subjective opinion that is open to debate
dealing with someone who has an attitude is the last thing i want as an organiser, what i want is professionalism, skill, abilty to communicate with an audience and performers who do not create me with problems, as far as i am concerned someone with an attitude can jump of the Ballydehob 12 arch bridge.

Subject: RE: Is folk a dirty four-letter word?
From: GUEST,Iains
Date: 18 Jan 22 - 02:48 PM

I doubt the capstan shanties for hauling anchors were very musical.
As an example take "randy dandy oh" and HMS Victory. This ship had two anchor capstans one above the other so up to 144 sailors could be employed on the task that could take up to 5 hours of backbreaking labour.
It was not a continuous process either. The capstan rope was a continuous circle of rope, not the same as the anchor rope.One was continuously untied and tied to the other by "nippers" and friction allowed the capstan rope to heave up the anchor cable and store the 6 tons of it into a locker, this employing yet more sailors.
Even allowing for pauses the process was strenuous. The emphasis would be on keeping the timing, rather than musicality. I would imagine by the end of the process, even the singer was nackered.
(other sources suggest up to 250 sailors would be employed raising anchors)
A performance by shanty singers would find it hard to convey the hideousness of the process, in limited headroom and having to step over the rope with each revolution of the capstan, while all the while exerting maximum effort. If the dogs failed and the anchor was allowed to get away the capstan bars would be lethal.

Subject: RE: Is folk a dirty four-letter word?
From: the lemonade lady
Date: 18 Jan 22 - 02:49 PM

That's a bit rude ??

Subject: RE: Is folk a dirty four-letter word?
From: GUEST,Keith Price
Date: 18 Jan 22 - 03:05 PM

Iains, they didn't sing shanties in the Royal Navy.

Subject: RE: Is folk a dirty four-letter word?
From: GUEST,Phil d'Conch
Date: 18 Jan 22 - 03:32 PM

Iains: Not sure how you got shanties out of all this. Crosspost maybe?

RE rudeness and folk in general:

Attitude is an internal individual psychological construct. Hospitality and entertainment are external relationships.

If both the venue owner and the audience all share your attitude, Bob's yer uncle. If somebody, somewhere, calls you something dirty, it is you who have failed to be accessible, interesting and entertaining. That's one job, not three.

And let's make no mistake, audiences do like to hate. It's a product. Always has been. Between the so-called “Mandela Effect” and dogma/propaganda/fake news, folks can be managed to hate things that do.not.exist.

Subject: RE: Is folk a dirty four-letter word?
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Jan 22 - 04:04 PM

Guest Keith Price.You are quite correct In the RN for capstan work a bosuns whistle, fife, fiddle or drum was used. The only reason I used HMS Victory as an example is that the records state how many sailors were required on the capstan.( a number I found surprisingly high)
Thanks for the correction and clarification.

I was kind of agreeing with Steve Gardham's post of the 11th Jan

Subject: RE: Is folk a dirty four-letter word?
From: The Sandman
Date: 18 Jan 22 - 04:23 PM

lemonade lady, you are clearly aiming at venues outside thefolk club circuit, so if it works for you ok,
but i am only explaining my reaction in the context of the folk club festival circuit and what my reaction as an organiser would be

Subject: RE: Is folk a dirty four-letter word?
From: The Sandman
Date: 19 Jan 22 - 01:49 AM

one thing that attracted me to this music 50 years ago, was it was more honest than the the pop music world, I have never had any problem using the word folk to describe my music.
I do not regard it as a dirty word.
Part of that which attracted me to this music, was the idea at that time, that folk music was judged on actual perfomance not hyped PR.