Is folk a dirty four-letter word?

Subject: RE: Is folk a dirty four-letter word?
From: GUEST,Rigby
Date: 31 Dec 21 - 05:31 PM

Personally I find it a bit irritating to turn up at a folk club and hear a procession of people singing the works of Paul Simon, Bob Dylan et al. That's not because I have a strong opinion as to whether or not they are folk music, it's because there are a million other open mic nights where you can hear that. My selfish preference is for the folk club to be a space where I can hear material that's more closely associated with the tradition, and talk to other people who are interested in it.

As to the decline in attendance, I started going to folk clubs around ten years ago, coincidentally at about the same time my other half decided to re-train as a vicar. It's remarkable how similar the dynamic is between folk clubs and C of E congregations. Both rely on a core of loyal but increasingly elderly people, and for some of those people, the religious/musical purpose of the thing has become a bit secondary to its being a social circle where they can meet up every week with their friends. And while they're both very friendly and welcoming environments, it's not hard to see why younger people might think "There's nothing for me here."

Subject: RE: Is folk a dirty four-letter word?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 31 Dec 21 - 09:17 PM

I think basically the problem devolves down to this:-

we'll have to see what happens after we're dead.......

Subject: RE: Is folk a dirty four-letter word?
From: GUEST,Nick Dow
Date: 01 Jan 22 - 04:49 AM

And Happy New Year to you as well Al! :=)

Subject: RE: Is folk a dirty four-letter word?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 01 Jan 22 - 07:36 AM

And to you Nick, and good luck attend ye!

Subject: RE: Is folk a dirty four-letter word?
From: GUEST,Tom Patterson
Date: 01 Jan 22 - 10:15 AM

"The best in acoustic music: contemporary and traditional folk, country, blues, comedy, jazz and standards"
This is the promotional description used by a well-established Midlands folk club. Whilst one might question whether any local club can offer "the best", there is little doubt that the rest of the sentence gives a very fair description of what you will find on one of their club nights. When I arrived in Birmingham, nearly 50 years ago, there were at least 5 folk clubs operating in the city centre with a strong focus on traditional song. This not to say that you would only hear traditional song as at least 2 of these clubs had residents performing music hall songs and "new" songs by the likes of Ewen MacColl and Bill Caddick. Now only one of these clubs remains- The Black Diamond. Whilst there are plenty of other clubs and singarounds in the local area, most are of the "anything goes" variety and traditional songs are less commonly heard than they used to be.
It is interesting that nearly all of these clubs still choose to call themselves folk clubs and that suggests to me that folk is not a dirty four-letter word; it's just that for many people now it has become a generic word for "anything goes" music.

Subject: RE: Is folk a dirty four-letter word?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 01 Jan 22 - 04:37 PM

Interesting... I was living in Brum fifty years ago and ran several folk clubs round that time, and attended all the others.

I'm sorry if Brum's folkscene is in such a parlous state. As you say fifty years ago, the scene was very exciting. Of course the bombs going off in the 1970's scared a lot of people out of the town centre. That knocked everything sideways for a long while.

If you think back. The scene was very fragmented back then the trad clubs of the time The Old Crown in Digbeth, The Prince of Wales, The Star, Ian Campbell's various clubs, Chas Baird's club. They weren't really a homogenous gang with a common aim. Frequently they didn't like each other very much.

I think I liked the clubs outside the city more. The Blackthorn, The Three Barrels, The Fitters Arms in Walsall, The Old Crown in Lichfield, Bob Lines's various clubs in Sutton Not sure any of them were very keen on me - still - no one is forced to love you.

Subject: RE: Is folk a dirty four-letter word?
From: GUEST,Nick Dow
Date: 01 Jan 22 - 06:59 PM

Especially Chas Baird and Jim McPhee, but then I'm not sure anybody liked McPhee. I lived in Bearwood round the corner from Chas. He was my roadie in the 1970's.

Subject: RE: Is folk a dirty four-letter word?
From: GUEST,Tom Patterson
Date: 01 Jan 22 - 07:50 PM

Big Al - with regard to Brum's folkscene, I wasn't implying that it is in a parlous state; the point I was making is that folk clubs have changed in that there is less of a focus on traditional song.

Subject: RE: Is folk a dirty four-letter word?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 01 Jan 22 - 08:39 PM

Of course Jim and Les Ward and Derek Grinell (over at The Bell and Pump) were fairly unashamedly showbusiness agents - although they booked folk acts also. Jim's club the Fox and Hounds was very successful. Jack Hudson told me that Jim booked him into a night club in Kenya for a month.

The great folk scare was over by 10 years - but the folk comedian business gave a woof of air beneath the wings of the professional folksingers.
Plus there ware acts that worked in Scandinavia and Germany. I remember Waterfall did some gigs in Holland.

It was a very diverse time. Barrie Roberts (who ran the Fitters) was always full of gossip - he told me about Free Reed going bust when it produced The Transports for Peter Bellamy.I think every one was excited by the breadth of vision of Peter Bellamy, even if they had reservations about buying it.

Victoria Wood was winning New Faces and appearing at The Bell and Pump. Fivepenny Piece were also on New Faces. And I heard The Spinners play The Bleacher Lass of Kelvinhaugh on Pebble Mill at One. The late Donny McLeod who introduced Pebble Mill at One was a folk fan and invited Jon Raven to play on the programme.
I think we knew the movement was getting away from us, but looking back - it was an interesting time.

Subject: RE: Is folk a dirty four-letter word?
From: Malcolm Storey
Date: 01 Jan 22 - 09:12 PM

Ah Jim Mc(Mega)Fee - not at all popular with those dealing with him with his agent's hat on.
Not sure he did his stable a lot of favours.
I certainly stopped dealing with him when running the Folk Union One in Hull and never dealt with him when involved at Whitby.
A decade and a half of running large mixed engineering installations from Teeside to Hereford in the late 60s to early 80s (Dave Burland once opined that I was a Gypsy) meant I could get to at least five folk clubs a week most weeks. There were not many I did not enjoy although I did tend towards the more traditional clubs where there was a choice on any particular evening.
Happy days.

Subject: RE: Is folk a dirty four-letter word?
From: The Sandman
Date: 02 Jan 22 - 03:21 AM

bring back Mary Whitehouse, she will know, She did not like four letter words

Subject: RE: Is folk a dirty four-letter word?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 02 Jan 22 - 05:07 AM

So how does this tradition thing work?
Does someone say to you, by gum! you're a traditional singer?
Do you guys feel differently to us who who play all kinds of stuff?

And more importantly - do you really feel its made for a good working basis.

In my time I've played a lot of traditional songs - initially in folk clubs, then country and western, then Irish pubs and theme pubs, old peoples homes. But I've always been a mongrel - picking up guitar riffs and songs here there and everywhere.

Has the idea of 'the tradition' worked for you. Has it made the best out of you as a musician and artist?   I think if not, you have to work out the four letter word that has summed up your experience.

And does it seem worth handing onto a next generation.

Subject: RE: Is folk a dirty four-letter word?
From: The Sandman
Date: 02 Jan 22 - 06:22 AM

Al i am not a tradtional singer but a singer of trad songs , there is a difference
YES listening to tradtional tunes has made me a better player, and listening to tradtional singers has given me an idea of style, much the same as listening to blues singers, like robert johnson blind lemopn jefferson gives you an idea of blues style. its about listening to the roots of the music.
if you want to understand rock and roll you listen to the roots, it came out of blues, and to the early rock and rollers
. bill haley was an exception, his roots were country and jazz, his early years played in a band called the four aces of western swing.
Al it is about listening to roots, to get an idea of styles
"Has the idea of 'the tradition' worked for you. Has it made the best out of you as a musician and artist?"
Yes, in my case listening in my teEnage years to MissipPiJohn Hurt, and learning his guitar style, playing melody on and off the beat, and transferring it to concertina, influenced my accompaniments, my singng was influenced by listening to Harry Cox JEANNIEROBERTSON and loads of unaccompanied tradtional singers [ not singers of trad songs]

Subject: RE: Is folk a dirty four-letter word?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Jan 22 - 06:32 AM

You ask all the right questions, Al.

Subject: RE: Is folk a dirty four-letter word?
From: The Sandman
Date: 02 Jan 22 - 09:12 AM

Al, it is my opinion that it is difficult to master more than one style[ which is hard enough, to try and sing jazz well, classical music well, blues well and trad folk well, if you stick to one style you have a better chance of getting one thing done better.
the old cliche jack of all trades master of none is apt

Subject: RE: Is folk a dirty four-letter word?
From: The Sandman
Date: 02 Jan 22 - 10:37 AM

Nick Dow, now there is someone who is an exception, many years ago I saw him playing in a pub[ john of gaunt?] in Lancaster playing blues[ he did not know i was there, i get around sometimes incognito] and he was good, in my opinion he is good as a trad performer too

Subject: RE: Is folk a dirty four-letter word?
From: Brian Peters
Date: 02 Jan 22 - 01:23 PM

'So how does this tradition thing work?'

Some interesting questions there, Al...

'Does someone say to you, by gum! you're a traditional singer?'

No-one ever said that to me - I just concentrated on the stuff I enjoyed the most, and then got asked to do gigs playing it. Like Dick, I would use 'traditional singer' to mean the kind of singer who had their songs handed down to them as part of the natural flow of things, rather than people like me, who set out to learn them in a folk revival setting.

'Do you guys feel differently to us who who play all kinds of stuff?'

Probably not. I played for many years in a band doing Americana of various stripes, and formed a mid-life-crisis rock'n'roll band for a while as well. The task is always to develop the material in a way that makes it an interesting challenge for the musician, and entertaining for the audience. My job description has always been 'professional entertainer', rather than 'keeper of the flame'.

'And more importantly - do you really feel its made for a good working basis.'

Musically yes - I never got bored with arranging trad. songs in different ways. Career-wise it's kept me going for 40 years and taken me to a lot of interesting places. Developing the educational / workshop side has been useful in terms of career - trad. fans may be a niche audience, but they are keen and often participatory.

'But I've always been a mongrel - picking up guitar riffs and songs here there and everywhere.'

Many of us (instrumentalists especially) possess that instinct, and I've played all kinds of different stuff in my solo set, never mind in bands. Peter Bellamy (himself a handy bottleneck guitarist) once told me that his approach was 'anything goes for the encore', but that he preferred to keep the trad' stuff as the core of his set.

'Has the idea of 'the tradition' worked for you. Has it made the best out of you as a musician and artist?'

I like to think so. Arranging old stuff for new audiences was, for me, always a more interesting challenge than writing my own songs (I did write a few, many years ago). And, though I can get a thrill from a falsetto bluegrass harmony or a rock'n'roll accordion break, nothing matches the intensity of a blood-and-guts Child ballad! I would also say that, for someone with my musical predelictions, folk gigs at which people actually listen to what you're doing are a great spur to musical development.

'And does it seem worth handing onto a next generation.'

That is a great question. My impression is that there was a great crusading spirit around in the 1960s, and it was still there among many of the pros and organisers when I started playing in the 1980s. People like Bellamy and Martin Carthy would always be telling you to look up Sam Larner or Harry Cox's version of this or that, and my old pal Roy Harris was truly passionate about a sense of mission. I did use to think that 'handing it on' was a sacred duty, but I don't so much now. There are plenty of talented young singers and musicians (some of whom even admit to listening to my old records) and they're well capable of finding things out for themselves without some crusty oldster telling them what they ought to do. Performing folk songs in an accessible style, while keeping the source material available to anyone who wants to pick up on it, would be enough for me.

Subject: RE: Is folk a dirty four-letter word?
From: The Sandman
Date: 02 Jan 22 - 03:07 PM

With the greatest respect,Brian much as i admire your dexterity and ability playing blues on your accordion., which you do very well,
You are in my opinion a much better singer of traditional songs[ A VERY GOOD ONE IMO] than a singer of blues.
I recorded two blues on duet concertina on Boxing Clever, a concertina compilation, but I got a good BLUES singer, Pauline Abbott, to sing them.
Al, we have to decide what we are best at as singers., and stick to it. And can i make it clear Brian is not a traditional singer but a singer of traditional songs, which he sings very well, do you understand the difference?

Subject: RE: Is folk a dirty four-letter word?
From: Brian Peters
Date: 03 Jan 22 - 04:49 AM

Thanks, Dick, but btw I've never claimed to be a blues singer - though I'll sometimes do 'Bright Lights, Big City' or similar for a bit of fun. Didn't you use to do 'Four Until Late'?

Subject: RE: Is folk a dirty four-letter word?
From: The Sandman
Date: 03 Jan 22 - 05:39 AM

I understand, just trying to explain to Al.
I did used to do four until late , the concertina part was intersting, I adapted a Blind Lemon Jefferson guitar part for a different song, to the Robert Johnson song, but I Should have got a blues singer to sing the vocals., bit difficult that on folk singers money

Subject: RE: Is folk a dirty four-letter word?
From: Howard Jones
Date: 03 Jan 22 - 07:20 AM

I think that for most people now folk music is entirely alien to them. For about a century popular music has been largely based on American musical forms, in particular black American forms. The rhythms, modes, and many other characteristics of folk music are entirely unfamiliar to most modern ears. Most people will get excited by an Irish reel but most have no idea how to move to a jig or a hornpipe. We play unfamiliar instruments which make unfamiliar sounds. For most people it's remote from their daily experience of music, and they need to learn to listen to it just as they might have to learn to listen to Middle Eastern music, or jazz or classical music.

In England there isn't even the desire for a sense of national identity which makes the Scots, Irish and Welsh at least recognise and acknowledge their traditional music even if they don't choose to listen to it for pleasure. The English have ignored their own traditional music heritage, and are embarrassed by it when it comes to their attention.

The folk world itself has become too introverted, too ready to accept low standards of performance, and too stingy to pay a reasonable amount to hear good music. Most professional folk musicians do it for the love of the music, they may (or may not) make a decent living from it but no one's going to get rich. Is it any wonder that singer-songwriters like Ed Sheeran (reported worth £220m) or Katie Melua (£18m) are careful to avoid any suggestion of the "folk" tag?

Subject: RE: Is folk a dirty four-letter word?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 03 Jan 22 - 07:55 AM

Thank you all for your considered and creative replies.

Its interesting that both Dick and Brian stress the importance of communicating with an audience.

In many of the folk clubs of Brum I visited and took my uncommitted pals to back in the 1970's - the style was actually confrontational. It was almost like a competition to come up with the most grotesque singing style. It was like 'repel all boarders'. Frequently my friends left the folk club totally bewildered.

To be fair this was a trend that was going through avant gard jazz and and acid rock at the time also.
I agree that to be Pavarotti or George Jones or Robert Johnson - you need to start early and stick to your last. However as financial necessity kicked me out of my comfort zone - as I went from folksinger, to country singer, pub singer, Irish theme bar singer, old peoples home singer - each time I gained something. Icouldn't do these jobs initially - but there were important skills to be learned.

In contrast I was really sad when Noel Murphy told me he didn't clean up in the great Irish theme bar explosion because the audiences ( abit of a stretch calling them that!) weren't quiet like in a folk club. And Doug Porter told me that Derek Brimstone had cancelled a a gig because he had to go on after a disco.

Like I say thanks for your insights

One last thing that resonates with me. Les Worral asked me to do a few spots for his festival of Scarecrows at Faldingworth in Lincolnshire. Must be about 15 years back. Anyway tin the time honoured fashion, the rain pelted down all day - sometometimes torrential, sometimes heavy sometimes semi trpical in its intensity. Key Largo had nothing on it.

So the cream teas were held indoors -steam coming off busloads of pensioners,
'Aren't they wonderful?' Les asked me as some kids (everyone under 40 looks like kids!) banged a hob nail boot, to a totally unfamiliar acoordion accompanied song, and two hundred and fifty pensioners endured a lugubrious Watersons style lump of unintelligibility.


I'm not telling this story to say - ain't I great God knows we're all old enough to have war stories of dying on our arse. But my feeling is that 'the tradition' - if there is one, it is more spiritual than anything.

Subject: RE: Is folk a dirty four-letter word?
From: Howard Jones
Date: 03 Jan 22 - 09:41 AM

Al, I think what you're forgetting is that many folk clubs were catering for a specialist audience. The uncommitted who dropped in expecting what they'd seen the Spinners do on TV were likely to be challenged by it. This didn't just apply to folk clubs - I remember ending up in Ronnie Scott's after a night out and being just as baffled as your friends were.

I don't see anything wrong with that. Any art form worth its salt requires time and effort to understand. You first need to cut your teeth on the more accessible stuff, which may then lead you to the more difficult and more challenging material. If Kenny Ball's Jazz Men on Saturday night TV hadn't prepared me for what the musicians in Ronnie Scott's were playing, that was my failing not theirs.

Someone with "The Four Seasons" as their ringtone may not be able to understand Schoenberg. Someone whose idea of folk music is "The Wild Rover" might struggle with a Child ballad. The imbalance arises when the wrong performer is put in front of the wrong audience.

There is a perception that folk music is simple and should be immediately enjoyable by everyone. Some of it is, but some of it is more complex and more challenging, and takes time to appreciate.

Subject: RE: Is folk a dirty four-letter word?
From: The Sandman
Date: 03 Jan 22 - 09:55 AM

There is something in what you say about performing to different audiences and adapting. But my point is that you have to stick to what you do best.
before the lockdown i was singing regularly in two community halls to senior citizens, but because i was in ireland, i could sing trad songs, because the irish are closer to their tradtions.
i did adapt, singing some songs popularised by luke kelly and also the clancy brothers, but i also was able to sing more esoteric material too it was a listening audience and i did not sing pop songs, absoluteley no need to murder buddy holly or englebert humperdinck.
why? sing musack that can be heard in every supermarket and music that is treated as wallpaper music.
I sing because i like the material I sing, I COULD HAVE BEEN A POP SINGER AND EARNED MUCH MORE MONEY. I chose not to.
Folk clubs have become a place where failed popsingers can live out their failed fantasies, it was never thus in 1966 when i first waked in to a folk blues club, neither was it like that at les cousins in soho in 1967, yes it was a broad church, but no body singing Buddy Holly, Or Cliff Richard

Subject: RE: Is folk a dirty four-letter word?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 03 Jan 22 - 09:57 AM

I'm not 100% sure on that, Howard. I have often said in these discussions that I am shallow and do not want to work for my entertainment. That is not strictly true I suppose. I did about 30 years helping to run a folk club and festival so there was a certain amount of effort! That aside though, when I feel I have to work to understand the music that is being played, I move on to something easier. It is not necessarily because it is traditional rather than 'light' either. I have seen at least 3 of the contributors on here (and a good few others) who all perform 'heavy' traditional music and I have no problem at all enjoying their work. I think they have all put the work in for me! They make traditional music enjoyable and that is not something everyone can do. When someone performs without entertaining it does become hard work to listen to and, yes, may give folk a bad name. It is easier to entertain an audience with popular music that they are familiar with and can sing along to than it is to make an obscure traditional song entertaining as well as interesting. I think most people go for the easy option!

Subject: RE: Is folk a dirty four-letter word?
From: The Sandman
Date: 03 Jan 22 - 10:08 AM

Derek Brimstone was a good entertainer, he entertained without singing top ten popsongs., as far as i remember
Alex Campbell was hilarious, but sang some trad material[ inever heard him sing cliff richard or Buddy Holly songs] , he understood what was folk.
The dichotomy for perfomers [and i speak only for myself], is that entertainment is there to enhance the songs that you sing, as an entertainer you should imo have respect for your material, once you start denigrating your songs to get a cheap laugh, you have imo got the balance wrong

Subject: RE: Is folk a dirty four-letter word?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 03 Jan 22 - 10:54 AM

Entertaining is not always about 'getting a cheap laugh', Dick, or getting any sort of laugh if it comes to that. Entertaining can be tugging at the heart strings. Telling an amazing story. Dazzling people with your skill. Many, many different things can be entertaining. Yes, you do need to get the balance right but with the best will in the world, if the artist does not entertain me in some way, I am not likely to pay to see them again!

I like Buddy Holly songs BTW - Even though they were a bit before my time. His music was simple and very entertaining. I cannot honestly say the same of Cliff Richard but I know that plenty of other people would. Not saying that either is suitable for a folk club but the simplicity of Holly's music certainly lends itself to audience participation and I have never objected to anyone playing it :-)

Bit of a tangent though so I'll leave that bit of the thread there!

Subject: RE: Is folk a dirty four-letter word?
From: The Sandman
Date: 03 Jan 22 - 11:13 AM

I did not say Entertaining is always about 'getting a cheap laugh, please do not lecture me on the subject of entertainment.
I am not intersted in what pop songs you like, as you say a tangent and an unnecessary one,
simplicity is neither here or there, because a pop song is complicated or simple, does not alter the fact that they are pop songs
folk songs can be simple or complicated country and western songs can be simple or complicated, so what

Subject: RE: Is folk a dirty four-letter word?
From: The Sandman
Date: 03 Jan 22 - 11:58 AM

Sorry Dave, that was a bit brusque, we have had an intersting discussion

Subject: RE: Is folk a dirty four-letter word?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 03 Jan 22 - 01:35 PM

It was a bit, Dick, but I'm used to it :-)

The point I was trying, and failing, to make about simplicity is that if the tune and/or lyrics are simple, people are more likely to sing or whistle it later. It becomes memorable. I think it was Sam Cooke that made the same point when asked why his compositions were so popular.

Bringing it back on topic, simple songs are easier to sing and remember so they are quite likely to be performed by some floorsingers. Whether they are folk or not!

Subject: RE: Is folk a dirty four-letter word?
From: The Sandman
Date: 03 Jan 22 - 02:26 PM

Simple song and tunes are jot necessarily easier to sing well.
Some singers find songs with stories easier to remember, and can remember a long song with an interesting song easier than sqay a song with not much of a story, it depends on the singer.
if floor singers are not singing folk songs, is That the fault of the organiser for allowing it as a policy?
When i started singing,it was difficult to get on as a floor singer ,we had to practise and everyone sang either American folk songs or folk songs from the uk or ireland
I am going to pose a question
is it similiar to dumbing down? is it, less people come to a venue because maybe the standard of floor singers is dropping, so the organiser allows anything goes repertoire and unpractised singers, those people who want to hear what they think of as folk songs well performed stop attending
or is attendances on guest nights drop because singers just want to hear themselves and only go to singers nights and for these people socialising is more important than music?
these are questions not statements

Subject: RE: Is folk a dirty four-letter word?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 03 Jan 22 - 03:27 PM

Dunno, Dick. As I said before, cause and effect are never straight forward. Did numbers start dwindling because organisers started to introduce non-folk songs or did organisers try to boost numbers with non-folk offerings because numbers were dwindling anyway? I can only go off personal experience. As you know, at Swinton Ged did most of the bookings. Dave W, and sometimes Frank, joined him on 'stage' as the resident act. I did the door and paid people as well as organising publicity and performing a singers spot if time allowed. We did not change anything at all for years and while numbers were very high at first they did dwindle eventually. Frank no longer performs. Dave W moved to Scotland. I moved to Yorkshire. The singers nights still go on at the White Lion on Mondays but guests are now presented at the Conservative club in Westhoughton. I could be wrong but I think you may have been the last guest to be booked at the Lion.

It is far to easy to lay the blame for dwindling numbers on one aspect but, in truth, the situation is tied in to the economy, social trends and changing tastes as well as a myriad of other factors. Just like why some people think folk is a dirty four letter word :-D

Subject: RE: Is folk a dirty four-letter word?
From: Brian Peters
Date: 04 Jan 22 - 08:49 AM

Big Al: 'But my feeling is that 'the tradition' - if there is one, it is more spiritual than anything.'

Not for me, Al, nor any trad. musician I've ever met. It's a particular style of music ands lyric that doesn't sound like contemporary folk (or blues, or jazz, or pop), and those who enjoy it can get passionate about it. Nothing spiritual about it, though. I accept that some traddies in the past have been passionate to the point of intolerance but at the same time I can remember intolerant contemporary club organisers who would refuse point-blank to book what they called 'all-that-finger-in-the-ear-stuff'.

You do have a point though, Al, about singing styles on the tradfolk scene during the 1970s, a subject about which I've researched and written. The topic of 'mannerism' was debated vigorously in the folk press of the time, and pretty much every leading artist was accused of it at some point. Some of it did get a bit abstruse and weird. I once interviewed Will Noble - a singer who learned his songs traditionally and is notably free of folkie mannerisms - and asked him what he thought of the singing style in the 'folk scene'. Like the gentleman he is, he replied: 'a lot of them sang in a "different" way, shall we say... I suppose people were trying to get back to a way of life that they thought was around when this singing was going on.' I'm sure that 60s and 70s revival singers were actively experimenting with vocal styles, in search of an elusive 'authenticity'. It wasn't always successful...

I quite agree with what Howard said about finding the right repertoire/style for the right environment, and what Dave said about all the other factors that have caused a reduction in numbers.

Subject: RE: Is folk a dirty four-letter word?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Jan 22 - 10:43 AM

In 2007, the Fairport version of Sandy Denny's "Who Knows Where The Time Goes?" was voted "Favourite Folk Track Of All Time" by listeners of BBC Radio 2.

Either discuss or throw stones at me... :-)

Subject: RE: Is folk a dirty four-letter word?
From: GUEST,Nick Dow
Date: 04 Jan 22 - 12:10 PM

I know we've been here before, but now we are minus Jim Carroll, I will dare to venture the opinion that the informal definition of Folk, is some distance away from the academic definition, (such as it is).
Folk, to most club going people, covers Traditional and Contemporary, and that'll do, end of argument. It's just for convenience sake. No amount of hair splitting, is going to bother them at all, and usually provokes a mass exodus to the bar, where they will probably start their own sing around, with impunity. (Pinch of salt required for this bit of imagery. You know what I mean, I'm sure...)

Subject: RE: Is folk a dirty four-letter word?
From: Brian Peters
Date: 04 Jan 22 - 12:17 PM

I agree with Nick. To that small portion of the world at large that bothers itself with such matters at all (and particularly to 'Folk on 2' listeners), anything by Fairport Convention would fall smack in the mainstream of 'Folk'. I don't get upset about it.

And it is a lovely song!

Subject: RE: Is folk a dirty four-letter word?
From: GUEST,Phil d'Conch
Date: 04 Jan 22 - 01:53 PM

Sandman: ...proves nothing other than the taste of those listeners in 2007...
Pesky consumers! When will they ever learn?

Brian: ...anything by Fairport Convention would fall smack in the mainstream of 'Folk'. I don't get upset about it.

When Fairport had their first whack at Yellow Bird they tried to claim Norman Luboff as a 'traditional arrangement.' Publishers everywhere just rolled their eyes and billed them for the standard mechanical rights. Second time around proper ASCAP credit was given to the composer + Alan & Marilyn Bergman (lyrics.)

If you're doing this for money, run your personal consumer preference definitions past the usual pop sausage grinders.

PS: There's some Bob Dylan & Joni Mitchell on those first few Fairport albums. Some Mudcatters would call that something dirty, others would not & most don't care either way.

Subject: RE: Is folk a dirty four-letter word?
From: The Sandman
Date: 04 Jan 22 - 02:02 PM

it has nothing to do with pesky consumers, it is a small selection of listeners, but it has nothing to do with folk being a for letter dirty word,
my comment is not a criticism of the song., the song has no relevance to the original post
here is the otiginal postSubject: Is folk a dirty four-letter word?
From: Colin Randall - PM
Date: 17 Dec 21 - 09:47 AM

I posted this at my site Salut! Live yesterday and have received some interesting comments already. Maybe a topic on which Mudcatters would have thoughts. You'll need to
go to the site to see the responses but I'll repost the article below with apologies to US Mudcatters for my own piece being a bit Anglocentric -- I could and perhaps should have used American examples , too



What is it about folk music that makes some folk or folksy artists want to disown it and smug rockers want to sneer?

Think how many acoustic musicians and people associated historically with folk have sought to create distance. Briefly fashionable singer-songwriters seem to recoil in horror from being “pigeon-holed”. Folk, to many, is a dirty word.

Salut Live Froots ad - 1
There is nothing especially new in this. Maddy Prior, a product of the folk clubs of England who has made a living singing (superbly) traditional songs put to amplified accompaniment, once insisted Steeleye Span was a rock band.

And I have never forgotten one moment when the excellent trio Therapy - Dave Shannon, Sam Bracken and Fiona Simpson – played at my folk club, the Spinning Wheel, in Darlington, in about 1970.

Dave – sadly no longer with us – paused after a selection of self-compositions and at least one Cat Stevens hit to introduce a traditional song (it may have been Blackwaterside). “This," he said, "is one for anyone who strayed in here expecting to hear folk music.”

A young character in the BBC radio soap, The Archers, was once heard mocking his parents’ fondness for old Fairport Convention records.

Often enough, it depends on what you are prepared to label folk. But some venues are nervous, too, about being linked too closely with the genre.

Among the artists who have appeared or are due to perform at the Old Cinema Launderette in Durham are the Unthanks, Martin Carthy, Kathryn Roberts and Sean Lakeman, Jez Lowe and Peggy Seeger.

Yet the co-owner, Richard Turner, was quick – and right - to pounce when I sloppily omitted the negative from this sentence in a recent Salut! Live item: ”…Richard is keen to point out that it is not a folk venue”.

“It is not a folk venue at all,” he wrote. “We have artists from across the board.” But what followed felt like the twist of a knife:

      ‘We are getting less and less folk. There doesn’t seem to the audience for it’

In reality, this too is familiar territory. How often have we been told that while there is indeed an audience for such people as Kate Rusby, Oysterband, Bellowhead and its descendants, Show of Hands and assorted Lakemans (Kathryn Roberts and Cara Dillon included), that audience is a predominantly a middle-aged or older one.

Melanie_Safka_1975_cropImage of Melanie: public domain, via the William Morris Agency

Nor is the tendency to talk down folk a recent phenomenon. A grim introduction to Kat Lister’s interesting Guardian interview with Melanie (Brand New Keys, glorious Ruby Tuesday cover etc) Safka read: “Overlooked and underestimated, Melanie was framed as a winsome folkie and left out of the pantheon of greats.”

The subtext could not be clearer. Find yourself labelled folk and you can forget about ever being taken seriously let alone thought of as great.

I’d say that is or ought to be utter nonsense. So many of the artists featured at Salut! Live over its 13 years or so of existences ooze greatness that it is pointlessly difficult to choose where to start.

But maybe they succeed or win respect despite rather than because of identification with folk. Maybe I am just an unreformed and unreformable folkie living in the past. And maybe we should stop calling our music folk and just go on enjoying it for what and whatever it is.
Subject: Is folk a dirty four-letter word?
From: Colin Randall - PM
Date: 17 Dec 21 - 09:47 AM

I posted this at my site Salut! Live yesterday and have received some interesting comments already. Maybe a topic on which Mudcatters would have thoughts. You'll need to
go to the site to see the responses but I'll repost the article below with apologies to US Mudcatters for my own piece being a bit Anglocentric -- I could and perhaps should have used American examples , too



What is it about folk music that makes some folk or folksy artists want to disown it and smug rockers want to sneer?

Think how many acoustic musicians and people associated historically with folk have sought to create distance. Briefly fashionable singer-songwriters seem to recoil in horror from being “pigeon-holed”. Folk, to many, is a dirty word.

Salut Live Froots ad - 1
There is nothing especially new in this. Maddy Prior, a product of the folk clubs of England who has made a living singing (superbly) traditional songs put to amplified accompaniment, once insisted Steeleye Span was a rock band.

And I have never forgotten one moment when the excellent trio Therapy - Dave Shannon, Sam Bracken and Fiona Simpson – played at my folk club, the Spinning Wheel, in Darlington, in about 1970.

Dave – sadly no longer with us – paused after a selection of self-compositions and at least one Cat Stevens hit to introduce a traditional song (it may have been Blackwaterside). “This," he said, "is one for anyone who strayed in here expecting to hear folk music.”

A young character in the BBC radio soap, The Archers, was once heard mocking his parents’ fondness for old Fairport Convention records.

Often enough, it depends on what you are prepared to label folk. But some venues are nervous, too, about being linked too closely with the genre.

Among the artists who have appeared or are due to perform at the Old Cinema Launderette in Durham are the Unthanks, Martin Carthy, Kathryn Roberts and Sean Lakeman, Jez Lowe and Peggy Seeger.

Yet the co-owner, Richard Turner, was quick – and right - to pounce when I sloppily omitted the negative from this sentence in a recent Salut! Live item: ”…Richard is keen to point out that it is not a folk venue”.

“It is not a folk venue at all,” he wrote. “We have artists from across the board.” But what followed felt like the twist of a knife:

      ‘We are getting less and less folk. There doesn’t seem to the audience for it’

In reality, this too is familiar territory. How often have we been told that while there is indeed an audience for such people as Kate Rusby, Oysterband, Bellowhead and its descendants, Show of Hands and assorted Lakemans (Kathryn Roberts and Cara Dillon included), that audience is a predominantly a middle-aged or older one.

Melanie_Safka_1975_cropImage of Melanie: public domain, via the William Morris Agency

Nor is the tendency to talk down folk a recent phenomenon. A grim introduction to Kat Lister’s interesting Guardian interview with Melanie (Brand New Keys, glorious Ruby Tuesday cover etc) Safka read: “Overlooked and underestimated, Melanie was framed as a winsome folkie and left out of the pantheon of greats.”

The subtext could not be clearer. Find yourself labelled folk and you can forget about ever being taken seriously let alone thought of as great.

I’d say that is or ought to be utter nonsense. So many of the artists featured at Salut! Live over its 13 years or so of existences ooze greatness that it is pointlessly difficult to choose where to start.

But maybe they succeed or win respect despite rather than because of identification with folk. Maybe I am just an unreformed and unreformable folkie living in the past. And maybe we should stop calling our music folk and just go on enjoying it for what and whatever it is.

Is there a debate worth having? Is folk, indeed, still strong and resilient enough to rise above mainstream disdain?

Subject: RE: Is folk a dirty four-letter word?
From: The Sandman
Date: 04 Jan 22 - 02:06 PM

the finishing line of the above post
Subject: Is folk a dirty four-letter word?
From: Colin Randall - PM
Date: 17 Dec 21 - 09:47 AM



Is there a debate worth having? Is folk, indeed, still strong and resilient enough to rise above mainstream disdain? quote

so what is the relevance of steve shaws post

Subject: RE: Is folk a dirty four-letter word?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 04 Jan 22 - 02:35 PM

I suppose the spiritual thing is a bit unavoidable for me. I was bought up a Quaker and - my intro to folk music was Where have all the Flowers Gone -folk music versus nuclear destruction.

However much I reject 'the pale socialist of Gallilee'. I look for larger significance in the music and most other things.

And I think this is the start of the problem. We come to folk and jazz music - always from different positions.

I'm sorry we've lost Jim . To me, my Fathers house has many mansions and I should have liked Jim to be co-existent with us. I don't know how it happened - he denounced everyone he didn't care for - and the simple fact is that far more people have become involved with folk music through Peter Paul and Mary and Donovan than any of the stuff he champions.

In classical music - there seems to be a general acceptance that Mozart is a good guy, so is Bach and Beethoven, Wagner, Chopin. And you can go to college to learn what makes these guys the bees knees.

Whereas in folk, there is no such common ground. And jazz.....trad lovers are really intolerant of mainstream jazz. And as for bebop players - they used to be called 'dirty boppers' when I was a kid.

Probably my favourite Julian Bream DVD starts off with with JB playing John Taverner's Nocturne. Now this a piece of music I really don't 'get'.

I don't get it but it doesn't seem to cause friction. There does seem to be emnity in folk music amongst the various factions.

Subject: RE: Is folk a dirty four-letter word?
From: GUEST,Spleencringe
Date: 04 Jan 22 - 05:36 PM

I'm surprised no-one picked up on that Guardian best folk albums of 2021 someone posted up the thread: 7 out of 10 of the albums are wholly or partly traditional music, and of the others, you can hear the influence of at least three different traditions on Yasmin Williams' brilliant Urban Driftwood.

I'd contend that outside of the folk club scene, there's still more rumblings in the undergrowth than you'd imagine. Over the last couple years I've heard great albums of traditional music from (off the top of my head) Burd Ellen, Green Ribbons, Jack Sharp, Jake Xerxes Fussell and House & Land. There's more to add to that list. Also great contemporary music rooted in folk traditions by players like Henry Parker and Jim Ghedi. Happy to post some Bandcamp links

Subject: RE: Is folk a dirty four-letter word?
From: Brian Peters
Date: 04 Jan 22 - 05:58 PM

'Over the last couple years I've heard great albums of traditional music from (off the top of my head) Burd Ellen, Green Ribbons, Jack Sharp, Jake Xerxes Fussell and House & Land.'

Links would be good but, to return to the OP, how many of those regard or market themselves as 'Folk'?

Subject: RE: Is folk a dirty four-letter word?
From: GUEST,Spleencringe
Date: 04 Jan 22 - 06:50 PM

"How many of those regard or market themselves as 'Folk'?". Good question. Pretty much all of them, I'd say. Just not necessarily 'folk scene' folk.

Burd Ellen

"Burd Ellen is a collaborative project featuring Debbie Armour (Alasdair Roberts, Green Ribbons) and Gayle Brogan (Pefkin, Barrett’s Dottled Beauty). The group uses traditional song to explore and evoke dark landscapes and deep stories. Innovative instrumentation, drone and sound-wash support detailed vocal work to create a unique sonic atmosphere."

Subject: RE: Is folk a dirty four-letter word?
From: GUEST,Spleencringe
Date: 04 Jan 22 - 06:53 PM

Jack Sharp

"Good Times Older is Jack Sharp’s first solo album, following 13 years fronting psych rock band Wolf People. This collection of 11 songs features Jack’s guitar and voice, recorded in an austere and spare setting, using mostly traditional music and words gleaned from his home county of Bedfordshire."

Subject: RE: Is folk a dirty four-letter word?
From: GUEST,Spleencringe
Date: 04 Jan 22 - 06:57 PM

Green Ribbons

(Though this is cheating as the involvement of Frankie Armstrong is a clear link to the folk club scene)

"Green Ribbons is a project dedicated to the celebration of unaccompanied song. The current line-up features Debbie Armour (Burd Ellen), Frankie Armstrong, Alasdair Roberts and Benjamin “Jinnwoo” Webb (Jinnwoo, Bird in the Belly). Their debut release is an intimate collection of traditional and newly composed songs."

Subject: RE: Is folk a dirty four-letter word?
From: GUEST,Spleencringe
Date: 04 Jan 22 - 07:00 PM

House and Land

"House and Land is a North Carolina based duo whose guitar, fiddle and banjo abilities transform traditional folk forms from the familiar to the strikingly fresh."

Subject: RE: Is folk a dirty four-letter word?
From: GUEST,Spleencringe
Date: 04 Jan 22 - 07:04 PM

Jake Xerxes Fussell

"Fussell is creating his own legacy within the long lineage of traditional folk musicians and storytellers that have come before him."

Subject: RE: Is folk a dirty four-letter word?
From: GUEST,Spleencringe
Date: 04 Jan 22 - 07:06 PM

Henry Parker

"Henry Parker's contemporary take on folk, which he explores via thoughtful yet deeply accomplished guitar playing, unfurls and moves much like the landscape itself - mirroring the unpredictable, yet beautifully flowing, rolling hills and valleys of his hometown, the Aire Valley in West Yorkshire."

Subject: RE: Is folk a dirty four-letter word?
From: GUEST,Spleencringe
Date: 04 Jan 22 - 07:09 PM

Jim Ghedi

"An alternative & progressive take on folk and song-writing, exploring themes on social politics, history and environment."

Subject: RE: Is folk a dirty four-letter word?
From: GUEST,Nick Dow
Date: 04 Jan 22 - 07:09 PM

Unfortunately, Jim Carroll turned most threads that he joined into a slanging match. He gave offence and then expected everything to be alright afterwards. His mind was closed and he was unreceptive to any other point of view. He was impossible to ignore, in as much as almost every time you posted, there he was trying to start an argument.
There are very few on mudcat who behave in such a way I'm glad to say.
There is one other, however I for one will not engage with him on any level since his last torrent of abuse in my direction. Probably right.
I think as Joe Offer has said it's desirable to be on your best behaviour on mudcat, and it makes for a pleasant experience.
Anyway, enough, and back to the thread.
How many times have we had conversations with surprised members of the non Folk public who have heard songs that we are familiar with and exclaimed in surprise 'That's Folk music! I didn't realise. It's good isn't it?'
Two of my next door neighbours when we were singing in the garden. (The other one fired up a circular saw!) Oh well. Not sure if that is an argument for marketing your self as Folk or not. Goes against the grain a bit.