BS: New rules of the road for the UK

Subject: BS: New rules of the road for the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 31 Jan 22 - 11:45 AM

Most drivers in the UK do not know that some new laws cane into force on Saturday 29 Jan 2022. They all hinge around a new hierarchy of road users with the pedestrian being granted most protection, followed closely by cyclists and horse riders. the order is now -

Pedestrians
Cyclists
Horse riders
Motorcyclists
Cars/taxis
Vans/minibuses
Larger vehicles such as HGVs and buses

As a frequent pedestrian, cyclist and car driver they seem to make sense to me. And when I saw Jeremey Clarkson's reaction, it confirmed that they were indeed a good move :-D This morning I did my usual cycle trip to Skipton but rather than sticking to the backroads I chose to use the busy bypass. I must say that it seems to me that car and lorry drivers do seem to be paying attention as not once on the bypass did a driver pass me at a dangerously close distance. The only incident I witnessed was an Audi driver (who else?) overtaking me just before a T junction in our local village. A move that was frowned upon before and is definitely dangerous.

I can see a proliferation of helmet cams soon and a flood of calls to 101 plus online reports of dangerous driving.

Views anyone?

Subject: RE: BS: New rules of the road for the UK
From: Donuel
Date: 31 Jan 22 - 12:11 PM

Its like maratime guidlines with an exceotion for trains? Still when a tiny sailboat darts in front of a cargo ship the big guy wins.

Subject: RE: BS: New rules of the road for the UK
From: Manitas_at_home
Date: 31 Jan 22 - 12:15 PM

Apparently the law hasn't changed but the new Highway Code explains it better.

Subject: RE: BS: New rules of the road for the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 31 Jan 22 - 01:22 PM

I believe some laws have changed. For instance cars must now give way to pedestrians waiting on the pavement to cross a junction. It used to be give way to people already crossing. I could be wrong of course but a search on new driving laws yields lots of results.

Subject: RE: BS: New rules of the road for the UK
From: Allan Conn
Date: 31 Jan 22 - 01:33 PM

Guidelines have changed for cyclists too. For instance they are being told to be aware of traffic behind them and to let them by being in single file or if need be "stopping" to let traffic past. Plus when passing parked vehicles they are being asked to give more than a door width of space.

Subject: RE: BS: New rules of the road for the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 31 Jan 22 - 02:00 PM

Easier said than done if you are going up a narrow 1 in 5 Allan. If I were to stop I would never get going again! The new rule does add "if it is safe to do so" anyway.

I always give parked vehicles a wide berth where I can. The problems arise when you are passing a vehicle and someone else, usually in a BMW or Audi, wants to pass you :-(

Subject: RE: BS: New rules of the road for the UK
From: Mr Red
Date: 31 Jan 22 - 02:20 PM

For instance cars must now give way to pedestrians waiting on the pavement to cross a junction.

No way is that new. The Highway Code book pointed this out when I was a learner on a motorbike. Many years ago.

I'm sure there was some text that said "Give way to pedestrians at all times". Think about it - if pedestrians are main road traffic and the Highway Code surely says "give way when crossing main road traffic".

The junction thing, as I read it, is when the pedestrian is crossing a minor road as "main road traffic". And if you are forceful enough you can stretch that to include islands where the signs signal a give way. I am sure if a pedestrian forced his way crossing main road traffic and was injured, there would be little sympathy

But TBH road design doesn't help. I see cars go shooting through traffic light controlled crossings where there are two lanes and high-sided lorries obscure the nearside lights. Just today I poked my head round a lorry to look for the BMW (it was) so he could see me - he stopped - just, and did he realise his mistake? Not from the sarcastic hand gesture of "OK you can cross".

And just to lighten the thread
Old road signs never die, they just Give Way.

Subject: RE: BS: New rules of the road for the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 31 Jan 22 - 03:09 PM

It was always the case for pedestrians already on the road or crossing but it now includes pedestrians waiting to cross.

"Rule H2: New priority for pedestrians at junctions At a junction, drivers, motorcyclists, horse riders and cyclists should give way to pedestrians crossing or waiting to cross a road into which or from which you are turning. You should give way to pedestrians waiting to cross a zebra crossing (currently you only have to give way if they’re already on the crossing), and to pedestrians and cyclists waiting to cross a parallel crossing."

Subject: RE: BS: New rules of the road for the UK
From: robomatic
Date: 31 Jan 22 - 03:25 PM

Glad to see that motorcyclists have some sort of right over cars, but if a car doesn't see 'em and goes into the road ahead of them, the result won't be pretty. Likewise with pedestrians who do not get seen as they proceed into a crossing that they were not already in when a vehicle approached.

Everyone is on a phone these days. Either talking on it, looking at it, or both. The pedestrian, the motorcyclist, the car driver, and the lorry driver.

So a part of me is thinking these new laws (or newly explicated existing regulations) are to make matters simpler for the programmers of the coming autodriving cars and trucks.

It'll probably be a good thing but it won't feel like a good thing.

Subject: RE: BS: New rules of the road for the UK
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 31 Jan 22 - 03:29 PM

And I hope these new rules do NOT apply to cyclists riding with no lights against a one way traffic flow - saw 2 this evening.

Subject: RE: BS: New rules of the road for the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 31 Jan 22 - 05:01 PM

Good job they had no lights if they were riding against the flow, Bonzo. They may have dazzled you otherwise!

Subject: RE: BS: New rules of the road for the UK
From: Rain Dog
Date: 31 Jan 22 - 05:25 PM

I guess we will be all waiting a long time before any party tries to deal with the problem of private car ownership.

There are too many vehicles in the UK.

Most of those vehicles spend the majority of their time sitting on the road rather than moving.

How long do we have to wait before the government decides to put money into public transport rather than subsidise the private motorist?

Subject: RE: BS: New rules of the road for the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 31 Jan 22 - 05:27 PM

Agreed Rain Dog.

Subject: RE: BS: New rules of the road for the UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 01 Feb 22 - 08:04 AM

One of my rowing mates was killed, very horribly, when he rode his bike up from behind, on the left side of an artic, which swung out into the centre of the road at a T-junction, and turned left. He was in the driver’s blind-spot, and the driver was unaware that he was there or that he’d hit him until he’d been dragged thirty or forty yards up the road. Fortunately for the driver, there were a number of reliable witnesses, and the investigation into the accident confirmed that the driver would have been unable to see my friend due to the blind spot.

Anyone in the haulage industry (as I was for 17 years) will tell you that it’s necessary for an artic to swing ‘out’ when turning left in order to prevent the trailer from swinging in too far and possibly hitting anything/anyone on the pavement.

I think some more, very serious thought needs to be given about the ‘straight-on’ rule.

Subject: RE: BS: New rules of the road for the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 01 Feb 22 - 08:35 AM

Hopefully new sensor technology and micro cameras will eliminate blind spots soon enough.

Subject: RE: BS: New rules of the road for the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 01 Feb 22 - 08:41 AM

The other thing I should add is that the majority of todays HGVs are totally unsuitable for yesterdays roads! I know it's a tough one to get round but the sooner massive loads are put back on to trains and barges the better for me. Local deliveries can be made by vehicles which do not use the same space and can use greener power. I know there has to be exceptions but that is what they should be - exceptions.

Subject: RE: BS: New rules of the road for the UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 01 Feb 22 - 10:19 AM

Couldn’t agree more, Dave. The biggest mistake this country ever made was the destruction of the majority of the rail network. And we all know whose handiwork that was, don’t we?

Subject: RE: BS: New rules of the road for the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 01 Feb 22 - 12:07 PM

We do, John, but that may be too political! :-)

Subject: RE: BS: New rules of the road for the UK
From: Charmion
Date: 01 Feb 22 - 12:22 PM

The incident Backwoodsman describes is one of the reasons why I don't ride a bicycle at all, let alone in traffic. I'm blind in my left eye, a problem somewhat mitigated by the wing mirror while driving, but on a bicycle it makes me excruciatingly vulnerable to the antics of motorists as well as the state of the pavement.

The hierarchy of road users quoted by Dave the Gnome looks to me just like the German road priority system. I thought Britain wanted out of Europe?!

Subject: RE: BS: New rules of the road for the UK
From: Rain Dog
Date: 01 Feb 22 - 03:28 PM

"Couldn’t agree more, Dave. The biggest mistake this country ever made was the destruction of the majority of the rail network. And we all know whose handiwork that was, don’t we?"

Not so straitforward. The rail industry was underfunded by all governments over the years. If you wanted to cut costs all governments cut the investment to nationalised industries.

People look back on the rail industry with false memories. It was underfunded for years, poor rolling stock, poor service.

Subject: RE: BS: New rules of the road for the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 01 Feb 22 - 04:29 PM

So instead of investing in it they hired the biggest political vandal they could find to decimate it. Nice work. Maybe you should come down to the Westcountry some time, have a look at where our railway lines used to be (you can still trace hundreds of miles of them across the fields), reflect on our near-non-existent public transport and marvel at some of the highest petrol prices in the country. Just recently, a very limited service from Okehampton to Exeter has reopened on what was a Beeching-axed line. Well that's a 45-minute from Bude. Or, next nearest, I could drive to Bodmin Parkway. An hour. In both cases, mind the potholes.

Subject: RE: BS: New rules of the road for the UK
From: Charmion's brother Andrew
Date: 01 Feb 22 - 04:41 PM

[Quoted from DtG's post]
Pedestrians
Cyclists
Horse riders
Motorcyclists
Cars/taxis
Vans/minibuses
Larger vehicles such as HGVs and buses

As a cyclist (admittedly one with very few interactions with the horsey set) I think horse riders should be ahead of cyclists in such a hierarchy: cyclists have greater control over their conveyance than a horse rider has. A horse may take it into its head to throw its rider or otherwise act up.

Subject: RE: BS: New rules of the road for the UK
From: Black belt caterpillar wrestler
Date: 01 Feb 22 - 05:00 PM

One new thing is that you are supposed to open your car door from inside with the opposite hand so that you turn more and look behind as you open it.
I predict a lot of older people needing physio after trying to turn.

Robin

Subject: RE: BS: New rules of the road for the UK
From: Rain Dog
Date: 01 Feb 22 - 05:09 PM

"So instead of investing in it they hired the biggest political vandal they could find to decimate it."

Decimate? I still cannot get used to the misuse of that word.

Yes, every single government under invested in the rail network. Just typical of the lack of long term planning we all suffer from in this country.

Subject: RE: BS: New rules of the road for the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 01 Feb 22 - 05:26 PM

I assure you that I did not misuse that word. Do your research.

Subject: RE: BS: New rules of the road for the UK
From: G-Force
Date: 01 Feb 22 - 05:43 PM

Beeching didn't cut anything, he only reported to the Tory government. Most of the resultant cuts took place between 1964-1970, i.e. under Labour.

Subject: RE: BS: New rules of the road for the UK
From: DaveRo
Date: 01 Feb 22 - 05:47 PM

Although the publicity suggests that it's a strict hierarchy - horse riders give way to cyclists - the new rules H1 etc. do not actually say that. They give specific cases, eg

- horse riders should give way to cyclists on a 'parallel' crossing - obviously
- cyclists should give way to horse riders on a bridleway - sensible

An actual hierarchy - as quoted in the OP - is not in the Code. Perhaps it was invented to get the changes noticed.

Subject: RE: BS: New rules of the road for the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 01 Feb 22 - 06:25 PM

That's right, G-Force, and I'm aware that Beeching was defended by some of his supporters who claimed that he was made the scapegoat. It's true that he proposed a much-improved bus transport sytem, which never happened. However, that doesn't resolve him from blame. He was ruthless and unsentimental and he had no regard for history, and, especially, for the plight that he was proposing to visit on rural areas. It was all about money, money, money. Yes it fell to Wilson's government (for which I don't hold a candle, by the way) to make the cuts. They did resist a number of the recommendations, and when the Heath government got in they wanted to renew the cuts programme. They chickened out. Thatcher wanted to go much further - had she got her way Wales (Labour at the time) and the whole of south-west England (Liberal at the time) would have ended up with no railways at all. She eventually decided that it was politically too risky, so those plans quietly melted away. McMillan and his heartless henchman Beeching started the rot, but for sure they were not the only culprits in that long process which has ended us up with a severely depleted and not very impressive railway system. That's capitalism for you.

Subject: RE: BS: New rules of the road for the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 01 Feb 22 - 08:27 PM

I thought that didn't look right: it's "Macmillan."

Subject: RE: BS: New rules of the road for the UK
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 02 Feb 22 - 08:50 AM

Surprised me seeing Wales as Labour above but I only think of the corner of N W Wales I lived in and S Wales is another world... Trying to work back with Wiki for the Thatcher era (79-90), I come up with:

Anglesey/Ynys Mon: Keith Best (Con) served as MP 79-87 followed by Ieuan Wyn Jones (Plaid) 87-01
Caernarfon: Dafydd Wigley (Plaid) 74-01
Conwy: Wyn Roberts (Con) 70-97
Denbigh (abolished 83): Geriant Morgan (Con) 74-83
West Flintshire/Clwyd North West: Anthony Mayer (Con) 70-92

I’ve not a clue about these things but I’m puzzled at the thought of the Holyhead – London route being considered for scrapping? I could imagine it with the Conwy Valley Line though.

Subject: RE: BS: New rules of the road for the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Feb 22 - 10:03 AM

Thanks, Jon. Sorry for putting you to that work. I was incorrect on both counts. It was late and I haven't been well (I wasn't partying, I promise!)

Subject: RE: BS: New rules of the road for the UK
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 02 Feb 22 - 10:21 AM

I'd read you had visited hospital in another thread. Hope things clear up for you soon.

Subject: RE: BS: New rules of the road for the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Feb 22 - 01:06 PM

I'm fine now, Jon. I was just struggling to make a feeble excuse. I should have checked! It could be that lots of the industrial seats in South Wales were Labour but I haven't checked. I'll leave it there!

Subject: RE: BS: New rules of the road for the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 02 Feb 22 - 04:32 PM

So, the long and the short of it is that the rail cuts were down to Labour.

Heath wanted to renew the cuts - but didn't
Thatcher wanted to do more, but didn't.

It seems that including details of those two is just a smokescreen to hide the fact that Labour did the cuts!

Which is probably not what was meant by Backwoodsman's comment: Couldn’t agree more, Dave. The biggest mistake this country ever made was the destruction of the majority of the rail network. And we all know whose handiwork that was, don’t we?

Subject: RE: BS: New rules of the road for the UK
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 02 Feb 22 - 04:41 PM

"One new thing is that you are supposed to open your car door from inside with the opposite hand so that you turn more and look behind as you open it."

Have the idiots who thought this up never heard of wing mirrors???

Subject: RE: BS: New rules of the road for the UK
From: Mr Red
Date: 02 Feb 22 - 05:17 PM

but it now includes pedestrians waiting to cross

It was in the highway code in the 60s

Subject: RE: BS: New rules of the road for the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Feb 22 - 05:33 PM

Labour did the cuts, Nigel, but did rein back on many of them. Heath and Thatcher wanted to go much further, but found that it was politically impossible. Just think, Nigel, had Thatcher had a bit more courage, your principality would, by now, be relying on nowt but buses...

Subject: RE: BS: New rules of the road for the UK
From: Mr Red
Date: 02 Feb 22 - 05:43 PM

How long do we have to wait before the government decides to put money into public transport rather than subsidise the private motorist?

They already do. The problems are many.
1) COVID has reduce passenger numbers
2) Brexshit has reduced driver numbers. Yes it has. Reduced timetables to balance the driver v routes are the inevitable cop-out.
3) Less buses, so people need a car to get to work.
4) Buses and cars are wider because people are wider. Less possibility for bus routes. Solution anyone?
5) More cars. Wider cars. Chelsea tractors. All parked where the fuck they want. Reduced bus routes.
6) Bus timetable planners don't use their buses. Poor documentation - confusion reigns, cars are easier. So get a car.
7) Routes change depending on the time of day, and can terminate in a village miles from anywhere. 1 hour to last bus!

I use buses, I am time rich, money limited (I ain't poor). But, geeze, if I want to go walking, the car gets me there & back quicker, more time for ambling. And in the summer there is no anxiety with the last bus not arriving, & I can go on after that time.

Cities are well served with public transport. Notso in rural areas.

No I don't have solutions. Unless the wider public deign to tolerate the cost and it is measured in £s, as well as acceptance of less convenience.

I well remember being gobsmacked at people taking taxis to do the weekly shopping, but even with a convenient rural bus would you want to carry 6 heavily loaded bags? Or shop 6 times?

Subject: RE: BS: New rules of the road for the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Feb 22 - 06:08 PM

Good ruminations there, Mr Red. As a thoroughly rural inhabitant these last 35 years (we raised a glass tonight as it was the 35th anniversary of our getting the keys to our house), I can tell you that I either drive into Bude (four miles away along the A39) to do my shopping, or I get a taxi. Last time I used a taxi (two years ago so that I could get a bit pissed in a restaurant without worrying about it), the fee was fifteen quid each way. There is absolutely no convenient rural bus. And it's a ten-minute walk, three quarters of a mile, up a farm lane before a bus is even remotely possible. Petrol 1.49.99 per litre, Diesel £1.55.99 per litre.

Subject: RE: BS: New rules of the road for the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 03 Feb 22 - 02:48 AM

Would you keep politics to the right thread please. Ta :-)

Buses between Skipton and Keigjley are great and we live smack between the two. I know we are lucky though.

I can only go off what I read about the new rules. What I remember of the Highway Code in 1970 when I passed my motorcycle test was you had to give way to pedestrians already on the crossing or junction but it was a long time ago, As a pedestrian prior to that I distinctly remember putting one foot on the road in order to be on the crossing or junction to force drivers to stop. Of course then, as now, lots ignored you anyway :-( Bus drivers were always good though :-)

Subject: RE: BS: New rules of the road for the UK
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 03 Feb 22 - 04:51 AM

Have the idiots who thought this up never heard of wing mirrors???

My car has a button to fold in the wing mirrors but it only works with the ignition switched on, i.e. before I have exited the car. For me, the "Dutch reach" is absolutely essential.



Bus drivers were always good though

That might depend on where you were.

When I first started driving, in Liverpool in the '70s, if I was waiting to exit a side road into slow moving traffic, I would get ready if I saw a bus as the driver was likely to let me out.

When I moved to Manchester, I would check that I wasn't over the give-way line for fear of the bus taking my bumper off. I seem to remember far more car horns in the Manchester rush hour than in Liverpool (although not nearly as many as London, at that time).

DC

Subject: RE: BS: New rules of the road for the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 Feb 22 - 05:23 AM

From the mid-80s to the mid-90s I cycled to and from work every day. For several years that was a 14-mile round trip which included a two-mile stretch of the North Circular near Walthamstow. After that it was a 22-mile round trip on very rural roads in Cornwall and Devon. I never wore Lycra. I never encountered any of the bad blood between motorists and cyclists that I hear about today, in spite of the fact that my London commute invariably involved a lot of weaving in traffic jams. In all that time I had just two negative encounters, one with a chap who did a stupid overtake on a narrow country lane (I shouted at him, he heard, he stopped and we had a barney...) and one with a bus who squeezed me into the gutter as he overtook. I reported him to the police, who, commendably, followed it up with me and the bus company. No witnesses, of course.

Subject: RE: BS: New rules of the road for the UK
From: Senoufou
Date: 03 Feb 22 - 05:32 AM

I'm going to have to start driving again in my little Fiesta (husband has moved out and taken his own car). The roads are mainly narrow lanes in my part of Norfolk, and overtaking is already a bit of a nightmare (tractors, farm machinery, combines etc). Obviously cyclists should be protected, but the practicalities are a bit tricky.
There was a very nasty accident quite close by a couple of days ago, caused by reckless overtaking (four vehicles involved, one casualty critically ill in hospital).
Wish me luck!

Subject: RE: BS: New rules of the road for the UK
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 03 Feb 22 - 05:51 AM

My worst experience as a cyclist when I was 16 where white van 'sandwiched me between the side of his van and a row of parked cars, so I agree with the new rule that cyclists should give themselves far more clearance so if an idiot in a white van tries to overtake too close, there is room to manoeuvre on the left hand side.

The only plus was that I got away with miniscule damage to myself and my bike, but the car I was sandwiched against had a dent along the whole of its right hand side, and was possibly written off by its insurer, as the van did not stop, and therefore its insurers culd not be held liable.

here is also a good animation that simply explains the turn left rule - pedestrians and cycles going straight on at the junction have priority to cycles and motor vehicles turning. End off.

Subject: RE: BS: New rules of the road for the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 03 Feb 22 - 12:02 PM

Husband moved out, Sen? I hope that is not how it sounds! :-(

Subject: RE: BS: New rules of the road for the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 Feb 22 - 12:17 PM

I cycled thousands of miles a year for over ten years (6000 miles in 1993 alone), and my golden rule was that I owned the lane I was in. I decided when it was safe for someone to overtake (most of the time it was, I'd make room and I would never pig-headedly hold anyone up unnecessarily). It isn't safe for cyclists to ride in the gutter. There are grids and all kinds of debris and there is no escape room. When cycling uphill on a main road, if a line builds up behind you, stop and let them pass.

Subject: RE: BS: New rules of the road for the UK
From: Senoufou
Date: 03 Feb 22 - 01:01 PM

Yes, I'm afraid he has Dave. Gone to live in another Breckland town.
I'm very sad, but he's free to do as he wishes.

Subject: RE: BS: New rules of the road for the UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 03 Feb 22 - 02:05 PM

Very sorry to hear that, Sen. Hope you’ll be feeling better soon. All good thoughts.

Subject: RE: BS: New rules of the road for the UK
From: Senoufou
Date: 03 Feb 22 - 05:06 PM

Thank you Backwoodsman. Luckily I have many lovely neighbours here in the village and feel safe. 'Onwards and upwards' as they say!

Subject: RE: BS: New rules of the road for the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 03 Feb 22 - 05:30 PM

Awwww :-( So sorry to hear that Eliza. PM me if you feel like it.