Folklore: Mystery gesture

Subject: Folklore: Mystery gesture
From: Lighter
Date: 03 Jan 23 - 01:43 PM

What's this about?

From Englishman John Brophy's semi-autobiographical novel of WW1, "The Bitter End" (1928), referring to 1917-18:

"There was current at the time a slang phrase used to express intense pleasure and triumph and accompanied by a gesture of the fingers. Everyone not too genteel used it, in this sense, but among coarser and more knowing people it passed as a euphemism for the sexual act performed illicitly....The soldiers were of course aware of the double meaning."

Q: What slang phrase? What gesture? (The OK sign? Beats me!)

Anybody know?

Subject: RE: Folklore: Mystery gesture
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 03 Jan 23 - 01:57 PM

I think it probably means the one that evolved into 'F off!'. If you're too genteel, Jon, to know what that is, picture the victory sign with hand reversed.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Mystery gesture
From: Lighter
Date: 03 Jan 23 - 03:35 PM

Very possible, Steve. We only use one finger in the States. Two mean victory and nothing else.

I wasn't aware that the "V for Victory" antedated 1940.


But what was the accompanying slang phrase?

Subject: RE: Folklore: Mystery gesture
From: GUEST,Ray
Date: 04 Jan 23 - 08:11 AM

My understanding is that the “two fingered salute” was used by English archers at the battle of Agincourt to demonstrate to the French that they still had their bow stretching fingers left (the enemy used to chop the fingers off if they were captured to prevent them firing a bow.)

More recently, someone referred to it as “an early form of digital communication”!

Subject: RE: Folklore: Mystery gesture
From: cnd
Date: 04 Jan 23 - 09:52 AM

My favorite middle-finger related joke is that it's the state bird of New York. Ideally, you introduce it with a bit of related ornithology trivia.

Some (modern) explanations, as well as an interesting report about hand gestures around the world, are included in The Independent (Nov 7, 1992)

I don't have access to it, but this chapter of A History of Cant and Slang Dictionaries: Volume III: 1859-1936 pulled up a promising preview with the word "gesture"

Alternatively, it could be the "thumbs up." Only problem is that it's one finger. From https://www.army.mil/article/197973/echoes_of_world_war_i

thumbs up -- A phrase or gesture that everything is fine. May derive from the Roman gesture to spare a downed gladiator in the arena. Now mostly an American gesture, it must be used carefully as it has more vulgar meanings in other cultures [ie, "up yours"].

Subject: RE: Folklore: Mystery gesture
From: Lighter
Date: 04 Jan 23 - 02:05 PM

Carter, the thumbs-up gesture was certainly in use in the British Army in 1917. And that may be what Brophy was referring to.

If both thumbs were used accompanied by a verbal "Thumbs-up!" it could fit the description, but in that case I'm surprised he wrote "fingers" instead.

Any other possibilities?

(Contrary to popular belief, the Roman "thumbs-up" was the gesture of disapproval: see OED - which, btw, can't find a reference to the "two fingers" gesture before World War II, or the U.S. "one-finger" gesture before the '50s!)

Subject: RE: Folklore: Mystery gesture
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 04 Jan 23 - 03:28 PM

The mind boggles! Presumably Brophy meant both the phrase and the gesture were a euphemism for the sex act, so he implies there was an innocent explanation and a sexual one. All the ones I can think of are too explicit. What could have been 'the sex act performed illicitly'? Gay men perhaps?
I have a vague recollection of holding the left hand, tips of forefinger and thumb touching to form a ring, and then putting in and out of the hole the forefinger of the right hand, to denote the sex act, and to an innocent this might not be construed in the same way, but this would not explain the phrase. Intriguing.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Mystery gesture
From: Lighter
Date: 04 Jan 23 - 03:34 PM

It's hard to believe that a phrase-and-gesture that was widely used in 1917 should have disappeared without leaving even a trace of memory behind.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Mystery gesture
From: Jack Campin
Date: 04 Jan 23 - 08:47 PM

My guess would be the forefinger of the right hand shoved into the rolled up fingers of the left. Dunno what phrase goes with it though. Haven't seen it very often and not for decades.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Mystery gesture
From: r.padgett
Date: 05 Jan 23 - 01:36 AM

As Steve Gardham says the V sign adopted by Winston Churchill (Victory) could easily be turned to the rude sign of "F ~ off" and the usual sign in UK to denote displeasure ~ very effective btw

Ray

Subject: RE: Folklore: Mystery gesture
From: MaJoC the Filk
Date: 05 Jan 23 - 10:45 AM

.... and rumour reached me (many decades later) that Churchill had to be told which way round the hand went to *not* be rude. Early photographic or newsreel footage from before the correction may or may not still exist.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Mystery gesture
From: Lighter
Date: 05 Jan 23 - 01:37 PM

Brophy's "slang phrase" may itself have been "Thumbs up!"

But it would be nice to have some roughly contemporary explanation of the phenomenon he was talking about.

Apparently it was "obvious" in 1928 but is now obscure to us.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Mystery gesture
From: GUEST,Modette
Date: 06 Jan 23 - 11:04 AM

Guest Ray wrote: 'My understanding is that the “two fingered salute” was used by English archers at the battle of Agincourt to demonstrate to the French that they still had their bow stretching fingers left (the enemy used to chop the fingers off if they were captured to prevent them firing a bow.)'

Historically, there is no evidence for this. See Agincourt myth and the Snopes version
of the story Snopes - finger removal.

Coincidentally, while undertaking completely unrelated research, I found the first film recording of the British 'V' sign (not the polite Churchill version).

Rotherham, Yorkshire, 1901

Subject: RE: Folklore: Mystery gesture
From: Lighter
Date: 06 Jan 23 - 01:00 PM

Sure looks like it to me.

A photo exists of American baseball player William H. Taylor raising his middle finger to the camera at the edge of a team portrait in the 1890s.

I can't find it online however.

Taylor's clubhouse nickname, btw, was "Ballocky Bill."

Subject: RE: Folklore: Mystery gesture
From: Charmion
Date: 06 Jan 23 - 01:11 PM

The slang phrase in question may well have been "Pull your finger out", meaning, "Get on with it." It goes with the index-finger-through-closed-fist gesture.

A generation later (1940-45), the expression "finger trouble" meant hesitation (at best) or cowardice (at worst).

Subject: RE: Folklore: Mystery gesture
From: MaJoC the Filk
Date: 06 Jan 23 - 02:44 PM

In my old trade, "FRinger trouble" yields tyops, which for a programmer can be problematical. I've had to use that as an excuse so often that I actually find it difficult typint "typo" properly. Down with spiel chequers.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Mystery gesture
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 06 Jan 23 - 03:02 PM

Going back to the OP we have 'express intense pleasure and triumph' coupled with 'euphemism for the sex act performed illicitly'. And we have specifically 'gesture of the fingers' (not a fist). To me a gesture of the fingers suggests perhaps moving the fingers as opposed to just holding them static. Intriguing and further evidence needed. The V sign does usually involve either wagging the fingers or an upward thrust as in the 1901 video. There is an obvious connection between 'triumph' and 'victory'. To a soldier could this also signify 'intense pleasure'?

Subject: RE: Folklore: Mystery gesture
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 06 Jan 23 - 07:00 PM

As I understand it, the Roman crowds used the thumbs up sign as a gesture of approval for the victor, and as encouragement fo him to finish the job properly and by killing the defeated opponent. They weren't a particularly nice crowd.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Mystery gesture
From: meself
Date: 06 Jan 23 - 08:28 PM

I thought thumbs up was 'let him live' and thumbs down was 'finish him off' ... ?

Subject: RE: Folklore: Mystery gesture
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 07 Jan 23 - 09:34 AM

Thumbs up or down is not a gesture of the fingers really. If only thumbs had been involved surely Brophy would have used the word thumb(s). The nearest suggestion so far has got to be the V sign.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Mystery gesture
From: Lighter
Date: 07 Jan 23 - 09:54 AM

Yes, Steve. Despite my readiness to accept the "thumbs-up" solution on Jan. 5, I must admit now that it won't quite do.

The two-finger sign isn't impossible, but the seemingly inseparable "slang phrase" remains a mystery. I'm unaware also of any use of the victory V in World War I.

And at least in Brophy's experience, the gesture-and-phrase combination was common.

If any 1914-18 victory V's can be found, that might solve half the problem.

Meanwhile, Wikipedia has a useful article on the Roman gesture. (It wasn't as most people think.)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pollice_verso

Subject: RE: Folklore: Mystery gesture
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 07 Jan 23 - 02:11 PM

https://www.mentalfloss.com/article/63863/brief-history-6-useful-hand-gestures

This site claims the victory V was definitely WWII. This I suppose makes sense as Winston Churchill was one of its more famous exponents.

So, back to square one!

Subject: RE: Folklore: Mystery gesture
From: Lighter
Date: 07 Jan 23 - 04:50 PM

The gesture gains significance in Brophy's novel when his young protagonist, an extreme romantic idealist, is scandalized by seeing his sweetheart innocently use it in conversation with some hospitalized soldiers, who smirk knowingly at her and each other.

Brophy was just that sort of idealist. Lying about his age, he managed to enlist in the British Army bfore he was 15 [!] and grew disillusioned on almost the first day. He served four years in the infantry on the Western Front.

His WW2 novel, "The Immortal Sergeant" (1942) was made into a movie starring Henry Fonda.

Possibly his biggest literary success was "Gentleman of Straford" (1939), a fictionalized life of Shakespeare.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Mystery gesture
From: Jack Campin
Date: 07 Jan 23 - 05:36 PM

A museum curator friend of mine claimed (on what evidence I know not) that the V sign goes back to the Luddites, who called themselves Voluntary Associations. V with one hand and the other way up to indicate an A with the other signalled your allegiance.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Mystery gesture
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 07 Jan 23 - 05:58 PM

I get the feeling this is going to run and run. I have a large.....collection of ballads that use sexual euphemisms and I'll have a look through but nothing immediately springs to mind. Most of the ballads are from earlier centuries. Intriguing!

A large section of the ballads include soldier/battle/weapon euphemisms so I'll start with these.

'sexual act performed illicitly' should narrow it down. There may be something hidden in Brophy and Partridge's songbooks.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Mystery gesture
From: Lighter
Date: 09 Jan 23 - 08:45 AM

Good suggestion, Steve. I'll have to back-track again. From Brophy & Partridge, 1965:

"THUMBS UP. An expression denoting intense joy or gratification....E.g., 'Thumbs up, boys. There's buckshee rum tonight.' Also as an adjective: 'It's thumbs up in this company now the S.M.'s gone on leave.' Often accompanied by a gesture, both thumbs vertical above clenched fingers. Occasionally used with a sexual meaning."

So one *might* say he was all fingers and thumbs when he wrote the 1928 passage.

Had Brophy intended something else in 1928, he presumably would have included it in the later book (first ed. 1930). And the inclusion suggests that B & P thought "thumbs-up" notable and novel in WW1.

In my experience the interjection is rarely heard in the U.S. The gesture, of course, is universally understood. One thumb almost always suffices.

I doubt I've ever heard B & P's "thumbs-up" as an adjective, or with a specifically sexual meaning - which may have been less sexual than contextual.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Mystery gesture
From: GUEST,Hootenanny
Date: 09 Jan 23 - 11:17 AM

I have always taken it to mean "Bollocks".

In the army if the tune of Colonel Bogey came up instead of singing "Hitler has only got one ball" that phrase was replaced with "Bollocks and the same to you".

The V sign that is reverse way to that used by Churchill.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Mystery gesture
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 09 Jan 23 - 12:17 PM

A finger gesture that I am familiar with is forming the first finger and thumb into a circle with the rest of the fingers open and slightly curved, to express "top notch" for something performed really well. The open palm faces the recipient and extra emphasis can be be given by moving the hand slightly backwards and forwards. This could easily be seen as a euphemism for masturbation or some other sexual act.

DC

Subject: RE: Folklore: Mystery gesture
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 09 Jan 23 - 01:09 PM

I'm beginning to think Jon has nailed it. It certainly fits in with the Brophy definition. I'll check my slang dictionaries.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Mystery gesture
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 09 Jan 23 - 01:11 PM

I have also seen the same sign described as the OK sign, but more in the form of a question :
"Everything OK?"
Replying with a raised hand, palm forward, would be "yes, I'm OK"
Replying by returning the same sign would be "Absolutely perfect".

DC

Subject: RE: Folklore: Mystery gesture
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 09 Jan 23 - 01:17 PM

I'm beginning to think Jon has nailed it.

What is it that Jon has nailed?

DC

Subject: RE: Folklore: Mystery gesture
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 09 Jan 23 - 05:11 PM

Thumbs up! Doug.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Mystery gesture
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 09 Jan 23 - 05:17 PM

Erm ??? Not convinced.

DC