Finding a home for Folk-Legacy's Library

Subject: Finding a home for Folk-Legacy's Library
From: GUEST,Linnea Paton (Sandy and Caroline's granddaug
Date: 26 May 23 - 02:38 PM

Hi Mudcatters,

I am looking for a home for Sandy & Caroline Paton's folk music library, which includes about 4000 books related to folk music and folklore as well as papers and ephemera (ex. a set of self-published "zines" from the Fox Hollow Festival). Some of the books are old, others are more modern.

I have reached out to dozens of libraries and institutions, to no avail. Sometimes they express interest, but then don't follow up, and I don't have the time to keep calling places to try to find these books a home.

And so a request:

Please write to me at [e-mail] if YOU or someone YOU KNOW would like to take them and what you would like to do with them.

At this point, I'm not looking for suggestions of places I could contact. I don't have time. But you are welcome to pass along my email others who may be interested and let them know they can write to me and I will respond.

Happy to provide a phone number upon request. I also have a fairly-complete list of titles in the collection.

The books are currently stored in northwestern Connecticut.

Here's to finding this wonderful collection a permanent home!

Best,
Linnea

Subject: RE: Finding a home for Folk-Legacy's Library
From: GUEST,Robert B. Waltz
Date: 26 May 23 - 03:31 PM

Linnea Paton wrote, in part: Here's to finding this wonderful collection a permanent home!

Thank you for trying so hard to find them a good home.

I fear I have no suggestions -- and the reason I have no suggestions is because I recently went through a somewhat similar problem. I was asked what to do about Ed Cray's large folklore collection, because his daughter didn't know what to do with it. I don't know how it was ultimately disposed of (if it was); I know that it was hard to find a good place.

We need to find a way to give homes to such folklore collections -- to find a library that really cares, or maybe even locate a non-academic custodian. Because this probably won't be the last time.

Subject: RE: Finding a home for Folk-Legacy's Library
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 26 May 23 - 09:47 PM

There are a number of people here who will hopefully rattle a few cages to see if there is someplace this can go. But to start with the obvious - have you spoken to the folks at the Smithsonian?

I will certainly ask around, and I second Robert's Thank You for looking for someplace to safely donate this archive.

Subject: RE: Finding a home for Folk-Legacy's Library
From: Joe Offer
Date: 27 May 23 - 12:05 AM

I spent the night in that library back in November 2000, when I visited Sandy and Caroline. I actually did get some sleep, but not much. That library is a wonderland, and I hope it finds a good home.
I'm already shopping for a home for my library.
Linnea, how much did your grandfather read? I know it was a lot, but I forget how much. One of the wisest people I've ever known.
-Joe-

Subject: RE: Finding a home for Folk-Legacy's Library
From: Howard Kaplan
Date: 27 May 23 - 09:44 PM

Are we asking the wrong questions about these libraries?

Yes, there will be a few fortunate individuals who can visit them wherever they wind up, especially if they're stored and shelved conveniently. However, many other potential readers will want to access them electronically, over the 'net. That desire on the part of many readers is part of the reason that it's hard to find a home for these books -- or for any books.

Maybe some better questions are these (temporarily ignoring questions of copyright and intellectual property):

How much would it cost to digitize such a collection (or at least the rarer parts not already available in digital form) and then store the books safely but inaccessibly, the way many libraries already have off-site storage for infrequently-borrowed books, while the digital copies are kept online? There would be both start-up costs and continuing maintenance costs (including website hosting) to be considered.

How does the cost of such a project compare to the cost of doing it the old-fashioned way, that is, by putting books on shelves?

Is there a library willing to organize the work and provide the off-site storage if those costs are met from outside?

Is the cost low enough that the prospect of having such a library online would entice the folk community to crowdfund it? If not, would crowdfunding a meaningful fraction of the cost convince some kind of foundation or similar entity to fund the rest?

Subject: RE: Finding a home for Folk-Legacy's Library
From: KarenJoyce
Date: 28 May 23 - 10:22 AM

The Internet Archive accepts donations (any size, variety of media, definitely including books), according to the information on this page:

https://help.archive.org/help/how-do-i-make-a-physical-donation-to-the-internet-archive/

However, while they intend to digitize what they receive (it is, after all, their whole purpose to digitize stuff and make it available), they do not promise to do so... whether, and when, depends on funding and, I assume, their decisions about priorities. They do promise to hold the original books.

Also, they want donations only of what is not already available, so there would be a need to check, book by book, whether it is already on-line (in their collection? on the Internet anywhere? not clear). Presumably this could be very time consuming.

The page linked to above includes a link to a donations form for further inquiries and a link to a webinar about the process.

Subject: RE: Finding a home for Folk-Legacy's Library
From: GUEST,Robert B. Waltz
Date: 28 May 23 - 06:04 PM

KarenJoyce wrote, in part, The Internet Archive accepts donations (any size, variety of media, definitely including books)

And some of their digitizations are really pretty bad, especially, I suspect, in books which had paper which had darkened with age or due to acidic paper, or which used old, unusual typefaces -- which description would probably apply to many of the best things in the Paton library.

Also, ideally, one would like to digitize the music as well as just the text. Not just create images, note; convert it to a usable digital music format (ABC, MIDI, something).

Making a good digital archive of a music library is a tough task. While I would applaud if someone were to try to do it, I'd suggest that there should be a good physical library (or museum, or something) associated with the task.

Subject: RE: Finding a home for Folk-Legacy's Library
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 28 May 23 - 09:14 PM

Just because a library has a book doesn't mean they can make it public. There are copyright and/or licensing issues to consider. And if one is going to donate an archive to a library, the best way to insure that it is processed by archivists and made available to users is to endow it. Donate enough money to support the work, and then some.

Maggie/retired library employee and Special Collections scanner.

Subject: RE: Finding a home for Folk-Legacy's Library
From: Joe Offer
Date: 29 May 23 - 01:32 AM

Hi, much of an endowment would support a library of 4,000 books, SRS?

Subject: RE: Finding a home for Folk-Legacy's Library
From: GUEST,Robert B. Waltz
Date: 29 May 23 - 06:58 AM

Joe Offer wrote, Hi, much of an endowment would support a library of 4,000 books, SRS?

That's a good question, but if we can find a host library, we should probably think bigger. Can we set it up so that it could take additional donations (e.g. I might eventually want to donate my folk music library)? And could it do digitization of the public domain material? This might be the chance to build a truly major collection, with the Paton Library as the seed.

Subject: RE: Finding a home for Folk-Legacy's Library
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 29 May 23 - 11:11 AM

I suppose it depends on how much information (data on spreadsheets) is available about the books - and if the family has already created any finding aids for searching specific content in the collection. It also probably isn't just books, it may well include what is called "vertical files" or paper clippings, journals, albums, cassettes, CDs - and then there is all of the art that is sometimes in these collections.

The more the library has to work with the collection to integrate it into their system, and to dedicate someone (who may not already be on staff) to do the work - it isn't necessarily huge, but it isn't small, either. Endowments can be open-ended, we had one that worked for years to reach $400,000 to host a huge number of historic maps. They did regular fundraising over a course of several years to add to that goal.

Subject: RE: Finding a home for Folk-Legacy's Library
From: GUEST,Wally Macnow
Date: 29 May 23 - 05:51 PM

Have you tried the Folk Song Society of Greater Boston? Suzanne Mrozak used to (and still may) oversee their library.

Some other places to check would be Warren Wilson College in Swannanoa, NC, Oberlin College Music School and University of Pennsylvania. I assumed you've tried the Library of Congress American Folklife Center.

If these don't work, try contacting Joe Hickerson. He might know of others who would be interested.

Subject: RE: Finding a home for Folk-Legacy's Library
From: GUEST,Julia L
Date: 29 May 23 - 08:04 PM

Unfortunately, libraries and institutions don't seem to be interested in acquisition just now. They have their hands full with digitizing their existing collections. It might be useful to speak with the custodians of various collections to determine the best course of action. I bet they would be delighted if all that work was done for them! Perhaps a grant could be acquired to digitize it, esp, as has been said, the rare and unique portions. Docents? Volunteers? Folklore majors?

The Maine Folklife Center seems to have fallen victim to this lack of staff and much of the collection is difficult to access. Programming is defunt. It is being warehoused in the Fogler Library at Orono and has not even been properly catalogued yet, though some samples are online. The Library of Congress did receive the work of Sandy Ives about 10 years ago, but that has not been digitized either.

Fred and I have just completed transcribing lyrics and tunes for all the Maine songs in the Flanders collection (close to 400 songs) from the digitized files that appear on Archive.org. We plan to donate this work back to the Middlebury Library after we have studied them for use in our book series "Bygone Ballads of Maine".

Good luck and keep us apprised
Julia Lane

Subject: RE: Finding a home for Folk-Legacy's Library
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 29 May 23 - 09:05 PM

Archivists would always be best for this work - don't start low and work up, ask an archivist about the project and then make decisions. I work as a volunteer scanning slides in an art collection at a local art museum, and it is unusual that I had many years of work in a university library (though I'm not an archivist) already doing that kind of work before I retired and went there to help out. Volunteers aren't created equal, so try for the professionals first.

Subject: RE: Finding a home for Folk-Legacy's Library
From: Joe Offer
Date: 29 May 23 - 09:08 PM

There are so many good folk music resources, and I would love to find a way to keep them all alive. There were a number of folk music resources at Fresno State University in California, including the Traditional Ballad Index, but the professor in charge retired and suddenly all those resources were removed (luckily, the professor in charge made provisions for that and these resources are now hosted privately).
Great Britain has the English Folk Dance and Song Society Website to house all sorts of valuable resources: https://www.efdss.org/, but what is there in the US to fulfill this function? One of my pet projects is to find a way to make the entire run of Sing Out! Magazine available to the public forever, but I haven't been able to even get a response from Sing Out! I'd give ten grand to support a Sing Out! archive, but I'd give fifty grand to support an overall US folk music archive (if it's a nonprofit and I can get the tax deduction). Is there some way we can establish a Website to house any and all US folk music information? We can't let this be lost.
The American Folklife Center can and should be a repository for all of this, but I don't trust the state of American politics to be able to support this as a government entity. That being said, if our friends at AFC can promise they can do it, I'll be the first to donate fifty grand. I think this is an urgent matter - we cannot allow any of these treasures to be lost.

Subject: RE: Finding a home for Folk-Legacy's Library
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 29 May 23 - 09:40 PM

The Internet Archive would need a cash infusion for that kind of collection and everything would need to be scanned and organized - a huge project, but one way Joe's goal would be accomplished for the print and digitized audio and video parts of the collection. The physical disposition would still be up in the air.

Subject: RE: Finding a home for Folk-Legacy's Library
From: Robert B. Waltz
Date: 02 Jun 23 - 05:07 PM

Stilly River Sage wrote, The Internet Archive would need a cash infusion for that kind of collection and everything would need to be scanned and organized - a huge project, but one way Joe's goal would be accomplished for the print and digitized audio and video parts of the collection. The physical disposition would still be up in the air.

I don't have much to add here, but I thought I'd post to keep this thread alive and try to make sure everyone who wants to see it, sees it.

As regards digitization, possibly some of us could help with the proofreading after the books are scanned (a necessary step!), whether the scans go on the Internet Archive or Google Books or somewhere else, but the physical disposition and conservation of the books is still an issue, and of course books that are in copyright could not be posted, so the physical archive remains the main issue.

Subject: RE: Finding a home for Folk-Legacy's Library
From: Robert B. Waltz
Date: 10 Jun 23 - 08:33 PM

An update: I just received a message from a gentleman telling me that his folk music library (which sounds like a fairly significant one) had been accepted by The Liston B. Ramsey Center for Appalachian Studies at Mars Hill University in Mars Hill, NC.

He tells me that they also have Bascom Lamar Lunsford's and Betty Smith's papers.

I don't have a contact, but it sounds as if they might be a good home for folk music libraries.

Subject: RE: Finding a home for Folk-Legacy's Library
From: Rapparee
Date: 10 Jun 23 - 09:06 PM

Consider Indiana University, which has a big collection of folklore, etc. My niece works for the Internet archive at the University of Illinois .

Subject: RE: Finding a home for Folk-Legacy's Library
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 03 Oct 23 - 10:51 AM

Has there been an answer regarding this priceless collection of folk music and folklore as well as papers and ephemera?

Subject: RE: Finding a home for Folk-Legacy's Library
From: GUEST,CupOfTea, no cookies at work
Date: 04 Oct 23 - 05:33 PM

I'm wondering if the enormous bulk of this collection is a hinderance to being accepted? Is it possible that there may be subdivisions of it that would enhance existing collections in specific geographic areas or particular subjects?
If I won the Megabux, I'd build a library to hold 'em all and digitize the lot, but as with many things in folk music, finding the funds to make what OUGHT to happen take place is a major barrier.

Where are schools where there are graduate courses that encompass folk music?
Are any music schools/conservatories places where there might be interest?
Any schools of library science that might lend a hand in cataloging such a collection?

I greatly fear that decades from now folks will be talking about a resource that vanished. I've been dismayed to know how few people who identify as "folkies" know who Sandy & Caroline were, much less what they'd accomplished. Matt Watroba and I presented a festival workshop about the songs learned from Caroline Paton, and quite a few were there only because they knew it was a session where they could sing along, even if they had no clue who she was. I was shocked, but then the folks *I* know are the folks *they* knew. Gathering interest in Folk Legacy might be a perquisite to getting the library a home.

Still hoping for a good solution,

Joanne in Cleveland

Subject: RE: Finding a home for Folk-Legacy's Library
From: Robert B. Waltz
Date: 04 Oct 23 - 06:51 PM

A guest wrote: I'm wondering if the enormous bulk of this collection is a hinderance to being accepted?

I strongly doubt it. To a large university library, that isn't that big a collection. It's about the size of my personal library, e.g., which could be fit into a single room if properly organized.

I think the problem is just that a lot of universities no longer care about folk music (a lot of my books are university discards!), and it's hard to find and negotiate with the ones that do. Even if there is one which wants the material, it has to be transported!

Subject: RE: Finding a home for Folk-Legacy's Library
From: GUEST,.gargoyle
Date: 04 Oct 23 - 07:47 PM

Joe - I understand.

I just donated a four foot high stack of wilderness/rivers/fishing books to a place that will USE them.

In the USA Postal system ... MEDIA books etc ... are shipped at a flat-rate, no matter the distance ... i.e. Fresno to Frisco... Same price as Frisco to Florida, Hollywood.

There is a loving library somewhere.

All music I have ... I thought about giving to you.

Sincerely,
Gargoyle

The key ... is doing the research ... to find a library that REALLY collects and wants that genre.

I volunteered, several years, at a local library, once a week to go through the donated books. 80% went into the dumpster. I picked up a few "gems" ...Lighter Random House $3.00 for gifts. They tossed anything older than five years ... they scanned for collectables.

Subject: RE: Finding a home for Folk-Legacy's Library
From: GUEST,.gargoyle
Date: 04 Oct 23 - 08:22 PM

I went to TWO local university archive departments - the floor where you put the white cotten gloves on - to ask how to scan hand-written letters, envelopes, photograpghs, telegrams, Bible notatations.

They looked at me like I was delirious.

Can you post military aircraft details from the 1940's?

Is a military telegraph message, undelivered, from April 15, 1865 still classified?

Sincerely,
Gargoyle

End of rant

Subject: RE: Finding a home for Folk-Legacy's Library
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 05 Oct 23 - 06:54 AM

Here is a simple suggestion but it would need someone with the appropriate knowledge to organise it.

Almost all archives/collections consist of at least 50% readily accessible books that can be found easily in libraries. The appropriate person needs to identify all of the non-essential material that can be sold (book dealer/Ebay) and any money from that could be used to find an appropriate archive to take the more personal material that the collector has accumulated. Not ideal but at least practical.

Subject: RE: Finding a home for Folk-Legacy's Library
From: Robert B. Waltz
Date: 05 Oct 23 - 07:17 AM

Steve Gardham wrote: Almost all archives/collections consist of at least 50% readily accessible books that can be found easily in libraries. The appropriate person needs to identify all of the non-essential material that can be sold (book dealer/Ebay) and any money from that could be used to find an appropriate archive to take the more personal material that the collector has accumulated. Not ideal but at least practical.

This suggests that we should start by making up a working catalog. It wouldn't have to have complete bibliographical details (editions, etc.), just titles and such. And that suggests to me that it might be worth asking the LibraryThing database to let us set it up as a Legacy Library. That way, the content information would still be available to all even after the collection is broken up, and it might be of some help to the new catalogers.

Still a lot of work, but it is something that could be done by a non-librarian.

Subject: RE: Finding a home for Folk-Legacy's Library
From: GUEST,CupOfTea, no cookies at work
Date: 04 Oct 23 - 05:33 PM

I'm wondering if the enormous bulk of this collection is a hinderance to being accepted? Is it possible that there may be subdivisions of it that would enhance existing collections in specific geographic areas or particular subjects?
If I won the Megabux, I'd build a library to hold 'em all and digitize the lot, but as with many things in folk music, finding the funds to make what OUGHT to happen take place is a major barrier.

Where are schools where there are graduate courses that encompass folk music?
Are any music schools/conservatories places where there might be interest?
Any schools of library science that might lend a hand in cataloging such a collection?

I greatly fear that decades from now folks will be talking about a resource that vanished. I've been dismayed to know how few people who identify as "folkies" know who Sandy & Caroline were, much less what they'd accomplished. Matt Watroba and I presented a festival workshop about the songs learned from Caroline Paton, and quite a few were there only because they knew it was a session where they could sing along, even if they had no clue who she was. I was shocked, but then the folks *I* know are the folks *they* knew. Gathering interest in Folk Legacy might be a perquisite to getting the library a home.

Still hoping for a good solution,

Joanne in Cleveland

Subject: RE: Finding a home for Folk-Legacy's Library
From: GUEST,.gargoyle
Date: 04 Oct 23 - 07:47 PM

Joe - I understand.

I just donated a four foot high stack of wilderness/rivers/fishing books to a place that will USE them.

In the USA Postal system ... MEDIA books etc ... are shipped at a flat-rate, no matter the distance ... i.e. Fresno to Frisco... Same price as Frisco to Florida, Hollywood.

There is a loving library somewhere.

All music I have ... I thought about giving to you.

Sincerely,
Gargoyle

The key ... is doing the research ... to find a library that REALLY collects and wants that genre.

I volunteered, several years, at a local library, once a week to go through the donated books. 80% went into the dumpster. I picked up a few "gems" ...Lighter Random House $3.00 for gifts. They tossed anything older than five years ... they scanned for collectables.

Subject: RE: Finding a home for Folk-Legacy's Library
From: GUEST,.gargoyle
Date: 04 Oct 23 - 08:22 PM

I went to TWO local university archive departments - the floor where you put the white cotten gloves on - to ask how to scan hand-written letters, envelopes, photograpghs, telegrams, Bible notatations.

They looked at me like I was delirious.

Can you post military aircraft details from the 1940's?

Is a military telegraph message, undelivered, from April 15, 1865 still classified?

Sincerely,
Gargoyle

End of rant

Subject: RE: Finding a home for Folk-Legacy's Library
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 03 Oct 23 - 10:51 AM

Has there been an answer regarding this priceless collection of folk music and folklore as well as papers and ephemera?

Subject: RE: Finding a home for Folk-Legacy's Library
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 05 Oct 23 - 06:54 AM

Here is a simple suggestion but it would need someone with the appropriate knowledge to organise it.

Almost all archives/collections consist of at least 50% readily accessible books that can be found easily in libraries. The appropriate person needs to identify all of the non-essential material that can be sold (book dealer/Ebay) and any money from that could be used to find an appropriate archive to take the more personal material that the collector has accumulated. Not ideal but at least practical.

Subject: RE: Finding a home for Folk-Legacy's Library
From: Robert B. Waltz
Date: 04 Oct 23 - 06:51 PM

A guest wrote: I'm wondering if the enormous bulk of this collection is a hinderance to being accepted?

I strongly doubt it. To a large university library, that isn't that big a collection. It's about the size of my personal library, e.g., which could be fit into a single room if properly organized.

I think the problem is just that a lot of universities no longer care about folk music (a lot of my books are university discards!), and it's hard to find and negotiate with the ones that do. Even if there is one which wants the material, it has to be transported!

Subject: RE: Finding a home for Folk-Legacy's Library
From: Robert B. Waltz
Date: 05 Oct 23 - 07:17 AM

Steve Gardham wrote: Almost all archives/collections consist of at least 50% readily accessible books that can be found easily in libraries. The appropriate person needs to identify all of the non-essential material that can be sold (book dealer/Ebay) and any money from that could be used to find an appropriate archive to take the more personal material that the collector has accumulated. Not ideal but at least practical.

This suggests that we should start by making up a working catalog. It wouldn't have to have complete bibliographical details (editions, etc.), just titles and such. And that suggests to me that it might be worth asking the LibraryThing database to let us set it up as a Legacy Library. That way, the content information would still be available to all even after the collection is broken up, and it might be of some help to the new catalogers.

Still a lot of work, but it is something that could be done by a non-librarian.