A guided tour of Ratcliffe Highway

Subject: A guided tour of Ratcliffe Highway
From: GUEST,Nick Dow
Date: 20 Sep 23 - 09:36 AM

I saw this reference on the Stan Hugill thread but did not want to hijack the OP.
Is the Ratcliffe Highway, now Royal Exchange Street? I know Rag Fair used to be at the bottom of the highway. Why was it named 'Ratcliffe' and what were the most famous buildings and are they still standing in one form or another? Can anybody enlighten me? All fascinating stuff.

Subject: RE: A guided tour of Ratcliffe Highway
From: Manitas_at_home
Date: 20 Sep 23 - 09:50 AM

The Ratcliffe Highway I'm thinking of is just The Highway now and is the Limehouse Link road running to the City from Docklands. There are a few old buildings left but it's usually a bit of a race track. I believe Ratcliffe was named for the nearby red cliffs on the Thames bank.

Subject: RE: A guided tour of Ratcliffe Highway
From: Brian Peters
Date: 20 Sep 23 - 09:57 AM

Nick, I thought the Ratcliffe Highway was in East London, running through Wapping and latterly called just 'the Highway'? I remember getting lost down there about 50 years ago at dead of night, having missed my last bus back to the Isle of Dogs. Its reputation made me a bit apprehensive!

Subject: RE: A guided tour of Ratcliffe Highway
From: GUEST,Nick Dow
Date: 20 Sep 23 - 10:07 AM

Thanks. The highway adjoins Royal Exchange Street and heads down toward Wapping the other end. Wonder which end was Rag Fair?

Subject: RE: A guided tour of Ratcliffe Highway
From: GUEST,Nick Dow
Date: 20 Sep 23 - 10:18 AM

Rag Fair, near present-day Liverpool Street Station, was a market where old clothes and textiles were traded. So that would be the west end of the highway. I've found a photo on Wikipedia.

Subject: RE: A guided tour of Ratcliffe Highway
From: GUEST,Hootenanny
Date: 20 Sep 23 - 11:26 AM

Subject: RE: A guided tour of Ratcliffe Highway
From: Manitas_at_home
Date: 20 Sep 23 - 11:52 AM

Perhaps Petticoat Lane? This was/is held in what is now Middlesex St a few yards from the station.

Subject: RE: A guided tour of Ratcliffe Highway
From: GUEST,hoot
Date: 20 Sep 23 - 12:01 PM

Sorry Nick

Rag Fair was near Rosemary Lane off Wellclose Square which is situated between The Highway and Cable Street, not near present day Liverpool Street.

Subject: RE: A guided tour of Ratcliffe Highway
From: GUEST,Hootenanny
Date: 20 Sep 23 - 12:15 PM

I should have added that the Highway is now part of the A1203. At the western end it becomes East Smithfield until it comes to the Tower of London and Tower Bridge Road. Several of my ancestors were tripe dressers and had shops in the east end one of which was on Ratcliffe Highway.

Subject: RE: A guided tour of Ratcliffe Highway
From: GUEST,Nick Dow
Date: 20 Sep 23 - 01:39 PM

Thanks Hoot, that quote was from The Royal Collection trust.

https://www.rct.uk/collection/913692/rag-fair

Doesn't mean they were right by the way.

Meanwhile your ancestors sound very interesting. Do you have any family stories. Are you familiar with the area? I used to work near Tower bridge in another life 50 years ago. I can't remember tripe sellers, but there was Mossy and his wife who sold enormous boiled ham sandwiches wrapped up in newspaper, just over the bridge. They would be closed down immediately by the health and safety today.

Subject: RE: A guided tour of Ratcliffe Highway
From: GUEST,Hootenanny
Date: 20 Sep 23 - 06:03 PM

Yes Nick I do have many interesting stories from various branches of my family but none of relevance re traditional music except for one family in Cornwall in the early 1800s. The patriarch was an African who became a music teacher who fathered a number of sons who were musicians and like wise their children. Some of their descendants are still musicians in the States.

Am I familiar with the area? Yes I am an East Ender from Old Ford, Bow.

I doubt also whether the jellied eels stalls in the open street markets would pass H & S today.

Subject: RE: A guided tour of Ratcliffe Highway
From: GUEST,Nick Dow
Date: 20 Sep 23 - 07:28 PM

Still very interesting. Thank you. Love jellied Eels!

Subject: RE: A guided tour of Ratcliffe Highway
From: Charley Noble
Date: 21 Sep 23 - 11:13 AM

Nice to see this thread.

Subject: RE: A guided tour of Ratcliffe Highway
From: Anne Lister
Date: 21 Sep 23 - 06:36 PM

I used to live in St Katharine's Dock, just off the Highway. I discovered while doing family research that a g-g-grandfather was a lock keeper at the dock, and his family lived in Limehouse. Prior to being a lock keeper he had been a ship's cabin boy.
However the coincidence of me living a stone's throw from where he had worked was all down to getting my flat from a lottery. Odd, huh?

Subject: RE: A guided tour of Ratcliffe Highway
From: GUEST,Phil d'Conch
Date: 21 Sep 23 - 11:42 PM

“...The only places which I have ever seen which could “hold a candle” to the low sailor resorts of Liverpool, are in the East of London, say about Ratcliffe* Highway.”
[Thirty Years at Sea: The Story of a Sailor's Life, Shippen, 1879]

The Highway, London
“The Highway, part of which was formerly known as the Ratcliffe Highway, is a road in the London Borough of Tower Hamlets, in the East End of London. The route dates back to Roman times. In the 19th century it had a reputation for vice and crime and was the location of the Ratcliff Highway murders. Prior to a renaming programme of 1937, different parts of the route had different names depending on what district they were in.”

...The name “Ratcliffe” literally means “red cliff”, referring to the red sandstone cliffs which descended from the plateau on which the road was situated down to the Wapping Marshes to the south.”


*If looking for song titles, mind the colonial spellings: Radcliffe, Rathcliffe and who knows how many others.

Subject: RE: A guided tour of Ratcliffe Highway
From: GUEST,iains
Date: 23 Sep 23 - 01:56 PM

Ratcliffe Highway, in Stepney, was one of the most notorious thoroughfares of early 19th century London. It was an area of sailors' lodgings (and of the young, and not so young, ladies who preyed on the sailors' earnings) and today is lost beneath more modern buildings.
It skirts the shadwell dock (Ewan McColl Sweet Thames flow softly)

Tiger Bay in Cardiff was a similar area. Now with the construction of the Barrage it has been cleaned up and is no longer recognisable.

As a kid in the 50s my father used to take me up to dockland on occasions, as he worked for a hardwood importer based just north of the docks and the "highway". In the 60s I had many saturday nights in the Prospect of whitby on wapping wall. This pub dates from around 1580 and it is said Hanging judge jefferys used to sup there. Very close by was Execution Dock where the ADmiralty had their own hangings over water for 4 centuries (Captn. Kidd being but one) Bodis were left for three tides to wash over them and pirates were hung with a shorter rope so they slowly suffocated instead of having a broken neck.

Subject: RE: A guided tour of Ratcliffe Highway
From: GUEST,Nick Dow
Date: 23 Sep 23 - 02:07 PM

Thanks Iain. I think this thread is giving an interesting insight into the Highway. I love these sort of stories. I've just checked out the pub on line. Well worth a visit I imagine. Please keep the stories coming, I'm loving it, and the memories are valuable.

Subject: RE: A guided tour of Ratcliffe Highway
From: Anne Lister
Date: 23 Sep 23 - 04:49 PM

As Ian says, Wapping is where the bodies were left for three tides to wash over and has thus given its name to a famous hamburger. Because the bodies were so bloated after the three tides, they were known as "wappers" or "whoppers" ... at least, that's what local lore said when I was living in Wapping.
I know the Prospect of Whitby well, but even by the 80s when I moved into the area it had become fairly posh, and there was also the Captain Kidd (pub).
When I was living in the area, and did a lot of teaching in local schools, it was interesting how the various warehouses (then in a state of dilapidation and now mostly demolished for very expensive housing) retained the scent of the spices, so that when the wind was in the right direction the air smelled of cinnamon.
As well as the g-g-grandfather who worked the locks, my g-grandfather was a superintendent of cargo at the docks a bit further east. Sadly he died well before I was born and so I know very little about his life.

Subject: RE: A guided tour of Ratcliffe Highway
From: GUEST,Nick Dow
Date: 24 Sep 23 - 08:28 AM

Excellent Anne. I remember the spice warehouses and also the hops that were stored there. My last straight job before I went professional, was at Saccone and Speed, near the docks. They sacked me for taking days off to do gigs. They did me a favour. Would not have pleased the superintendent of cargo, although he would have been proud of his grand daughter. I've just checked out the Captain Kidd pub. I would love to have had the job of signwriting the pub sign. I like doing heraldry the best, but that would have been fun. Wappers would have put me off hamburgers if I was not already vegetarian. We are getting quite a feel for the highway that we have been singing about. We've also touched on Rosemary lane and rag fair. The latter is mentioned in a song in Hammond recorded by my old acquaintance Peter Bellamy.

Subject: RE: A guided tour of Ratcliffe Highway
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 24 Sep 23 - 09:53 AM

Anne, the Docklands Museum just atop of West India Dock might have some info on your relatives. It's a great museum. My youngest lad lives next to Millwall Dock and we have had some great walks around the Docklands area. Many of our Yorkshire vessels have ended up as houseboats in the London Docks and canals.

I have a big photo (1856) on my bedroom wall of schooners tied up at Wapping. The same photo is in the Museum.

I also sing the Ratcliffe Highway song that starts 'As I was a walking down London from Wapping to Ratcliffe Highway'. Been singing that one for over 50 years.

Subject: RE: A guided tour of Ratcliffe Highway
From: GUEST,Hootenanny
Date: 24 Sep 23 - 10:16 AM

I find it very hard to believe the story about the Hamburger. Unless I am mistaken the "Whopper" originated with Burger King or a similar American company and was so called because it was quite large compared to those of the opposition.

What relationship is there between bodies in East London being washed over three times by the tide and an American "Delicacy"?

Where does this information come from Anne? Sounds like a bit of fakelore.

Subject: RE: A guided tour of Ratcliffe Highway
From: Anne Lister
Date: 24 Sep 23 - 12:29 PM

Dear Hootenanny
The word "whopper" was around when I was small (predating the American Burger King company) and meant, and still means, something very big. A frequent phrase is "that's a whopping great xxxx" (insert noun of your choice). Someone who tells lies is often accused of "telling whoppers", as in "whopping great lie". I have no idea how old the word is. The pronunciation of "Wapping" is identical to "whopping". So "whopper" may have come from "Wapping".That's why the story is around. Bodies washed over by the tide would have been bloated by the water and therefore very much bigger. They may well have been called "wappers".
I can't tell you where the information came from originally, but when I was living in Wapping (from 1980 - 2001) it was said to me quite frequently. We were amused that Burger King adopted the word. It may be fakelore, but it makes as much sense as anything else.

Subject: RE: A guided tour of Ratcliffe Highway
From: GUEST,Nick Dow
Date: 24 Sep 23 - 01:10 PM

Consulting Grose (for what it's worth) there is the following definition in 1811.
TO WAP. To copulate, to beat. If she wont wap for a
winne, let her trine for a make; if she won't lie with a
man for a penny, let her hang for a halfpenny. Mort
wap-apace; a woman of experience, or very expert at the
sport.
WAPPER-EYED. Sore-eyed.

Considering the Ratcliffe area and it's reputation the word may well have been in common usage. That said Grose would be working for the Sun Newspaper in this day and age. So take a pinch of salt, or any other available dockyard spice!

Subject: RE: A guided tour of Ratcliffe Highway
From: Anne Lister
Date: 24 Sep 23 - 01:48 PM

The online etymological dictionary gives us: whopper (n.)
1767, "uncommonly large thing," originally and especially an audacious lie, formed as if from whop (v.) "to beat, overcome." Whopping "large, big, impressive" is attested by 1620s.

also from 1767
whop (v.)
"to beat, strike," mid-15c., of imitative origin. Compare Welsh chwap "a stroke," also of imitative origin; also see wap. Related: Whopped; whopping.
So yes, the association with bloated bodies may be fakelore, but you never know. The words still sound the same.

Subject: RE: A guided tour of Ratcliffe Highway
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Sep 23 - 04:36 PM

The area Wapping (according to latest research) suggests a derivation from wapol - a marsh. The draining of Wapping Marsh, and the consolidation of a river wall along which houses were built, were finally achieved by 1600 after previous attempts had failed. The Prospect of Whitby pub has a replica gibbet and noose by the riverside terrace as a nod to Execution Dock.There was one pub (The Turks Head Inn, now a café) that was permitted to serve the last quart of ale to condemned pirates on their final journey from the prison to the docks.
The more notorious pirates were then tarred and hung in cages along the Thames estuary to dissuade any other wannabe-trouble makers!

Perhaps the most famous pirate to be tarred and hung in a cage was Captain Kidd, the inspiration for Treasure Island. In 1701 he was convicted of piracy and murder and was taken from Newgate Prison and executed. Rather gruesomely, on the first hanging attempt the rope broke and he only died on the second attempt. Even more gruesomely, his body was left tarred and gibbeted in an iron cage on the Thames riverbanks for more than twenty years. The actual site of Execution Dock is disputed, as the original gallows are long gone The current contenders for this rather dubious crown are the Sun Warf building (marked with a large E on the Thames side of the building), The Prospect of Whitby pub, the Captain Kidd pub, and the likeliest location of all – the Town of Ramsgate pub.
Part of the reason 3 tides were allowed to wash over the bodies is that the Admiralty had jurisdiction below the low tide point. Today the tidal range is 3 meters and by thursday it will be nearly 6m
(Measured at the Isle of dogs, just downstream)

Subject: RE: A guided tour of Ratcliffe Highway
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Sep 23 - 04:53 PM

Anne,
You are just repeating what I was pointing out "Whopper" = "Large, it was around during my childhood too which I think pre-dates yours.

I find it hard to see why Burger King an American Company would name one of their products after a very small district in a city three or four thousand miles away. Wapping becomes Whopper? It does not make sense.

Also I doubt that Burger King had access to your 1767 references. But am willing to be corrected.

Subject: RE: A guided tour of Ratcliffe Highway
From: GUEST,Hootenanny
Date: 24 Sep 23 - 04:56 PM

Apologies the above guest addressing Anne was me

Subject: RE: A guided tour of Ratcliffe Highway
From: GUEST,Nick Dow
Date: 24 Sep 23 - 05:13 PM

I have often wondered where the authorities were when all the debauchery was taking place in Ratcliffe Highway. We hear of the 'Watchman of the night' in 'Jack Tar ashore'. Was there one to call on the Highway? I'm wondering if it was accepted as a 'no go' area for policing. Maybe the Ratcliffe Highway murders were the turning point.

Subject: RE: A guided tour of Ratcliffe Highway
From: GUEST,Iains
Date: 24 Sep 23 - 05:14 PM

The documentary series London Next Stop makes a reference to Wapping and whoppers: The female narrator said that the area was called Wopping or Wapping because bodies would be fished out of the river at that location rather bloated hence the Whopper name for big burgers.

Seems an extremely unlikely explanation to me. The only part I can accept is that bodies in the water for a while get bloated and are not a pretty sight.
More likely it is simoly the narrator telling whoppers.

Subject: RE: A guided tour of Ratcliffe Highway
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 24 Sep 23 - 05:50 PM

Nick, correct. 19th century certainly a no-go area, and murder was rife. Some pubs that overlooked the river had trap-doors to drop the bodies through into the river, apart from being used for smuggling of course. The stories of tars being turned over are only the tip of the iceberg. I have read a few historical novels that give plenty of well-researched detail.

Subject: RE: A guided tour of Ratcliffe Highway
From: GUEST,Nick Dow
Date: 24 Sep 23 - 06:04 PM

So rattling rigging with a fireship seems fairly sanitised against the reality. There was obviously some respectable business transactions made, from tripe sellers to warehouse work as we have been told. How did they protect their business in a 'No go area'? This gets more interesting every post. Thanks all.

Subject: RE: A guided tour of Ratcliffe Highway
From: GUEST,Hootenanny
Date: 24 Sep 23 - 06:25 PM

Nic,

As you seem to be very interested in Ratcliffe Highway, I just took a look at one of my maps of the East End. Crutchley's New Plan of London Improved to 1829 shows that only a short stretch of today's Highway was named Ratcliff Highway running East from Wellclose Square to approximately New Gravel Lane, the next stretch is named High Street or Upper Shadwell, the next section is Cock Hill, the next is Queen Street.

Surely almost if not every port city has a rowdy entertainment area for the seamen ashore. I am no expert on British folk song but I would guess that several have songs related to them.

Subject: RE: A guided tour of Ratcliffe Highway
From: StephenH
Date: 24 Sep 23 - 06:40 PM

This may be a bit tangential - so please forgive me - but all this talk of Wapping reminded me of this song by Agnes Bernelle (although I hadn't seen this particular clip before.)

https://youtu.be/x-o3bsnXTdk?si=9qacs_hrwN3a7YCR

Subject: RE: A guided tour of Ratcliffe Highway
From: GUEST,Nick Dow
Date: 24 Sep 23 - 07:25 PM

Thanks Hoot. It's a poor folklorist who is not part historian and sociologist. Yes of course every town had its rough area but none is so well represented in the tradition as Ratcliffe Highway or Rosemary Lane. I just wanted a flavour of their history. I believe in understanding what I am singing or writing about. This thread has entertained my curiosity. There's always something to learn, hence our books and my magazine articles etc. Sorting the truth from the fiction can be challenging, but I can now see the area in my mind's eye in more detail than before. That's important to a singer (well this one anyway) and will affect my arrangement and treatment of the songs.

Subject: RE: A guided tour of Ratcliffe Highway
From: GUEST,Hootenanny
Date: 25 Sep 23 - 04:40 AM

Nic,

Further to my relative the tripe dresser he was at 88 Ratcliffe Highway from at least 1837 to 1847. One of his daughters was in and out of the workhouse/infirmiary with a sexual disease. His brother also had a tripe shop further east where the same road was called Shadwell High Street. Various brothers and cousins were in the same business in Bethnal Green and Lambeth.
Looking at my write-up on my family research I came across the following:

Ratcliff Highway was for many years a notorious street, being close to the docks it was full of sailors, drinking houses, prostitution and gambling and general mayhem and crime. Many men “joined” the navy or army here with the help of a recruiting sergeant or ship’s crew and a little alcohol. Ratcliff Highway is “celebrated” in an old folk song of that name. Because of it’s notoriety the name was changed to George Street but has now reverted to The Highway and is a busy route to and from Docklands which is now largely residential and high rise office buildings housing banking institutions)
In 2012 it appears that the banks have now taken over not only the area but the gambling and stealing. Is it time to re-name it again?

I hope this helps you a little.

Subject: RE: A guided tour of Ratcliffe Highway
From: GUEST,Nick Dow
Date: 25 Sep 23 - 05:21 AM

Well done Hoot! Just my sort of thinking. Definitely time for another re-name. I had no idea it was changed to George street, so thank you for that. I also had no idea that an STD could allow you in and out of the workhouse infirmary. Often untreated STD was just marked as 'Imbecile' on the workhouse records. The fact that your relative was allowed back out again is a testament to her father, who would have to accept his daughter back home again. This is all relevant to the genealogical research I am undertaking with the Hammond brothers collection. Yes you have been a help, and very kind to take time to post here. I'm still recovering from my heart attack so I get a bit tired, but when I have time I'll turn my attention to a bit more research on the Highway.

Subject: RE: A guided tour of Ratcliffe Highway
From: GUEST,Nick Dow
Date: 25 Sep 23 - 08:36 AM

https://theratcliffehighway.files.wordpress.com/2015/04/wallis16b1.jpg
A Map of the area in 1804.

Subject: RE: A guided tour of Ratcliffe Highway
From: GUEST,Hootenanny
Date: 25 Sep 23 - 09:36 AM

Nic,

Well spotted regarding workhouses and VD. The girl in question born 1849 was in the workhouse off and on in 1868, 69 and 70 usually "sick" and discharged at own request.
In November 1868 she was discharged from the workhouse to the Lock Hospital "venereal". I don't have a discharge note from there but she enters the workhouse again in 1869 "sick" and again in June 1870.

The 1871 census shows her living with her married sister's family but I can find no further information after that.

Her half brother my great grandfather also a tripe dresser was her cousin and by co-incidence died as a result of VD.

Re the map from 1804 you can quite easily see Rosemary Lane. The Rag Fair was held around the area at the west end where the Royal Mint once stood.

Subject: RE: A guided tour of Ratcliffe Highway
From: Anne Lister
Date: 25 Sep 23 - 05:35 PM

Dear Hoot
You seem to have misunderstood the point of my posts and the content. I haven't ever suggested that the Whopper was named after Wapping. I did, however, several times say that when I lived in Wapping there was a tale that the terms "whopper" and "whopping" came from the stories of bodies of hanged pirates being left - in Wapping, if that wasn't clear enough - for three tides to wash over them, thus leaving them bloated. And therefore it was quite funny that an American company should choose the name for their burger, as the connotations (in Wapping, at least) were far from appetising.
It is a piece of folklore, which was circulating in the area. It may well not be true, but that's a feature of folklore. I don't know why it doesn't make sense to you and I can't help that. I can only tell you (and Ians, who has clearly found another iteration of the same bit of folklore and doesn't believe it either) that that was, and may still be, Wapping folklore.
Unfortunately this is one of those social media moments which are quite difficult. I had thought this was an amicable thread with people contributing knowledge and experience. I lived and worked in Wapping. I have always been a storyteller and collector of anecdotes and local history. It is somewhat insulting to have that called into question because you don't understand, or like, or want to hear.
Thank you to Guest for reminding me about the Town of Ramsgate, and indeed the Turk's Head, which was going to be made into a local museum at one point. I used to go walking down Wapping Lane, and on past the Town of Ramsgate, very frequently. The whole area is very different now.

Subject: RE: A guided tour of Ratcliffe Highway
From: GUEST,Nick Dow
Date: 26 Sep 23 - 05:32 AM

How many times did you hear the story Anne? I'm just asking if it was common in the Wapping area, or just a tale you had heard once from one person. You can see how I'm thinking. If it was a belief or a wry tale within a greater community then it is indeed folklore and has a place in this thread and beyond. (Burgers not withstanding or being eaten in my case!)

Subject: RE: A guided tour of Ratcliffe Highway
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Sep 23 - 01:59 PM

I take no sides on this:
Wopper/wapping
https://www.tripadvisor.ie/ShowTopic-g186338-i17-k8439261-o10-Wapping_Wopping-London_England.html

Subject: RE: A guided tour of Ratcliffe Highway
From: Charley Noble
Date: 29 Sep 23 - 01:52 PM

If you'd like a tour, there's this old broadside:

An entirely different traditional song entitled "Ratcliff Highway" can be found in A SEA CHEST, edited by C. Fox Smith, pp. 169-171. She describes it as dating back to the 1840's. The tune is the perennial "Come all you jolly..."

RATCLIFF HIGHWAY ("Sailor's Frolic, or: Life in the East")
(Anon., Broadside circa 1840; tune: Tune: variant of Scots "Caledoni-o")

Come all you jolly seamen,
And listen unto me;
Avast a while, I'll make you smile,
And tell you of a Spree.
There's funny craft in Wapping,
In streaming colours gay,
And Pirates too, and Fireships,
In Ratcliff Highway.

So, mind those buxom lasses,
In their flying colours gay,
Or soon they'll clear your lockers
In Ratcliff Highway!

The Old Three Crowns I anchor'd in,
Oh such a jolly crew;
There's rough and smooth from ev'ry clime,
And copper colour too.
Such lasses there, so neat and fair,
With hair both grey and red,
Some with no nose and some no teeth,
And damag'd figureheads.

The Blue Anchor I next entered –
A Frigate took in tow;
I was run aground, my cargo lost,
I found that I must go;
I sail'd into another port,
And so by the next day
My hulk well-rigged and water-tight
Was in Ratcliff Highway.

Then there's the Three Jolly Sailors,
Such grog there in galore,
And lasses too, there's twenty,
I think as many more;
They foot it there so neatly,
But mind, without a doubt,
You'll find they'll cut your cable,
So keep a good lookout.

The Old Rose and Britannia,
Such Frigates there's at hand,
There's crooked Loo and squinting Sue,
And bandy Mary Ann;
There's skinny Nell the yellow girl,
And flash Maria neat,
There's bouncing Het and brazen Bet
That's been through all the fleet.

Then in the famed King William
That's in New Gravel Lane,
There's Jenny Jones all skin and bones,
And ugly Molly Payne;
Thick-lipped Kit as black as jet
With a bustle such a size,
And snuffling Liz, with such a phiz,
And Sukey Gravy-eyes.

At the famed Old Barley Mow,
Hailed a frigate tight;
Steer'd away, without delay,
And boarded her that night,
She took my watch and money too
And clothes without delay.
Two bullies stout they turned me out,
Into Ratcliff Highway.

So all you jolly sailors,
I'd have you bear in mind
There's Pirate Craft in every port,
And Fireships you'll find;
And if you wish to have a spree,
When out upon a cruise,
Get moored all right, so snug and tight,
In the port of the Paddy's Goose.

And mind those buxom lasses,
In their flying colours gay,
Or soon they'll clear your lockers
In Ratcliff Highway.

Subject: RE: A guided tour of Ratcliffe Highway
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 29 Sep 23 - 03:56 PM

Nice one, Charlie. Where does that one come from?

It's similar to this one published in a couple of John Ashton's books.

RATCLIFFE HIGHWAY IN 1842

You jolly sailors list to me,
I've been a fortnight home from sea,
Which time I've rambled night and day,
To have a lark on the Highway.
          Listen, you jovial sailors gay
          To the rigs of Ratcliffe Highway

Some lasses their heads will toss,
With bustles as big as a brewer's horse,
Some wear a cabbage net called veil,
And a boa just like a buffalo's tail.

I married a lass with her face so red,
She eat three salt herrings and a bullock's head,
She danced a jig then began to sing,
Drank a gallon of beer, and a pint of gin.

I have sailed, indeed all over the world,
And never before my flag unfurled,
In India, China and Bungo Bay,
As the spot we call Ratcliffe Highway.

One night a lady did me drag,
To have a spree at the Lamb and Flag,
There she got drunk, and got in a row,
And sold her shoes at the Barley Mow.

There is eels and shrimps as black as fleas,
And a covey a selling blue grey peas,
There's ugly Bet, and Dandy jane,
At the King William in Gravel Lane.

Yes! You'll see some girls as smart and neat,
As the Dowager Queen of Otaheite,
There's every colour, indeed 'tis true,
Green, black and purple, yellow and blue.

I went one night to have a reel
At the Angel tap in Blue Coat Fields,
I danced, and capered, and sung a song,
And married a lady they call Miss Long.

I fell in with a lady so modest and meek,
She eat thirteen faggots, and nine pigs feet,
Three pounds of beef, and to finish the meal.
eat eight pounds of tripe, and a large cow heel.

I met another borne down with fear,
She guzzled down thirteen pots of beer,
She threw up her heels and play'd the deuce,
And broke her nose at the Paddy's Goose.

You jovial sailors one and all,
When you in the port of London call,
Mind Ratcliffe Highway and the Damsels loose,
The William, the Bear, and the Paddy Goose.
             You sailors bold my song obtain,
             And learn it on the raging main.

I much prefer your version though with its frigate euphemisms.

I have sung the folk ballad for about 55 years.

As I was a walking down London,
From Wapping to Ratcliffe Highway,
I chanced to drop in on a ginshop
To spend a long night and a day.....etc.

Subject: RE: A guided tour of Ratcliffe Highway
From: GUEST,Nick Dow
Date: 02 Oct 23 - 09:09 AM

Thanks for those. The guided tour has been quite an eyeopener.

Subject: RE: A guided tour of Ratcliffe Highway
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 03 Oct 23 - 12:55 PM

And it's not a million miles away from Cable Street, site of the "Battle of Cable St" in 1936 - not one of our most glorious moments in history! Just coming up to the anniversary of it again. There are a number of Cable St songs too.

Subject: RE: A guided tour of Ratcliffe Highway
From: GUEST,Nick Dow
Date: 03 Oct 23 - 01:47 PM

Indeed! I did a concert with 'The young uns in Devon and they sang their song, and I went to school with a Jewish lad who's father was there. I met him but did not know how to ask him about it. I was only 14. I'm still in touch with his son.

Subject: A guided tour of Ratcliffe Highway
From: GUEST,Nick Dow
Date: 20 Sep 23 - 09:36 AM

I saw this reference on the Stan Hugill thread but did not want to hijack the OP.
Is the Ratcliffe Highway, now Royal Exchange Street? I know Rag Fair used to be at the bottom of the highway. Why was it named 'Ratcliffe' and what were the most famous buildings and are they still standing in one form or another? Can anybody enlighten me? All fascinating stuff.

Subject: RE: A guided tour of Ratcliffe Highway
From: GUEST,Nick Dow
Date: 20 Sep 23 - 10:07 AM

Thanks. The highway adjoins Royal Exchange Street and heads down toward Wapping the other end. Wonder which end was Rag Fair?

Subject: RE: A guided tour of Ratcliffe Highway
From: GUEST,Nick Dow
Date: 20 Sep 23 - 10:18 AM

Rag Fair, near present-day Liverpool Street Station, was a market where old clothes and textiles were traded. So that would be the west end of the highway. I've found a photo on Wikipedia.

Subject: RE: A guided tour of Ratcliffe Highway
From: GUEST,Hootenanny
Date: 20 Sep 23 - 11:26 AM

Subject: RE: A guided tour of Ratcliffe Highway
From: GUEST,hoot
Date: 20 Sep 23 - 12:01 PM

Sorry Nick

Rag Fair was near Rosemary Lane off Wellclose Square which is situated between The Highway and Cable Street, not near present day Liverpool Street.

Subject: RE: A guided tour of Ratcliffe Highway
From: GUEST,Hootenanny
Date: 20 Sep 23 - 12:15 PM

I should have added that the Highway is now part of the A1203. At the western end it becomes East Smithfield until it comes to the Tower of London and Tower Bridge Road. Several of my ancestors were tripe dressers and had shops in the east end one of which was on Ratcliffe Highway.

Subject: RE: A guided tour of Ratcliffe Highway
From: GUEST,Nick Dow
Date: 20 Sep 23 - 01:39 PM

Thanks Hoot, that quote was from The Royal Collection trust.

https://www.rct.uk/collection/913692/rag-fair

Doesn't mean they were right by the way.

Meanwhile your ancestors sound very interesting. Do you have any family stories. Are you familiar with the area? I used to work near Tower bridge in another life 50 years ago. I can't remember tripe sellers, but there was Mossy and his wife who sold enormous boiled ham sandwiches wrapped up in newspaper, just over the bridge. They would be closed down immediately by the health and safety today.

Subject: RE: A guided tour of Ratcliffe Highway
From: GUEST,Hootenanny
Date: 20 Sep 23 - 06:03 PM

Yes Nick I do have many interesting stories from various branches of my family but none of relevance re traditional music except for one family in Cornwall in the early 1800s. The patriarch was an African who became a music teacher who fathered a number of sons who were musicians and like wise their children. Some of their descendants are still musicians in the States.

Am I familiar with the area? Yes I am an East Ender from Old Ford, Bow.

I doubt also whether the jellied eels stalls in the open street markets would pass H & S today.

Subject: RE: A guided tour of Ratcliffe Highway
From: GUEST,Nick Dow
Date: 20 Sep 23 - 07:28 PM

Still very interesting. Thank you. Love jellied Eels!

Subject: RE: A guided tour of Ratcliffe Highway
From: GUEST,Phil d'Conch
Date: 21 Sep 23 - 11:42 PM

“...The only places which I have ever seen which could “hold a candle” to the low sailor resorts of Liverpool, are in the East of London, say about Ratcliffe* Highway.”
[Thirty Years at Sea: The Story of a Sailor's Life, Shippen, 1879]

The Highway, London
“The Highway, part of which was formerly known as the Ratcliffe Highway, is a road in the London Borough of Tower Hamlets, in the East End of London. The route dates back to Roman times. In the 19th century it had a reputation for vice and crime and was the location of the Ratcliff Highway murders. Prior to a renaming programme of 1937, different parts of the route had different names depending on what district they were in.”

...The name “Ratcliffe” literally means “red cliff”, referring to the red sandstone cliffs which descended from the plateau on which the road was situated down to the Wapping Marshes to the south.”


*If looking for song titles, mind the colonial spellings: Radcliffe, Rathcliffe and who knows how many others.

Subject: RE: A guided tour of Ratcliffe Highway
From: GUEST,iains
Date: 23 Sep 23 - 01:56 PM

Ratcliffe Highway, in Stepney, was one of the most notorious thoroughfares of early 19th century London. It was an area of sailors' lodgings (and of the young, and not so young, ladies who preyed on the sailors' earnings) and today is lost beneath more modern buildings.
It skirts the shadwell dock (Ewan McColl Sweet Thames flow softly)

Tiger Bay in Cardiff was a similar area. Now with the construction of the Barrage it has been cleaned up and is no longer recognisable.

As a kid in the 50s my father used to take me up to dockland on occasions, as he worked for a hardwood importer based just north of the docks and the "highway". In the 60s I had many saturday nights in the Prospect of whitby on wapping wall. This pub dates from around 1580 and it is said Hanging judge jefferys used to sup there. Very close by was Execution Dock where the ADmiralty had their own hangings over water for 4 centuries (Captn. Kidd being but one) Bodis were left for three tides to wash over them and pirates were hung with a shorter rope so they slowly suffocated instead of having a broken neck.

Subject: RE: A guided tour of Ratcliffe Highway
From: GUEST,Nick Dow
Date: 23 Sep 23 - 02:07 PM

Thanks Iain. I think this thread is giving an interesting insight into the Highway. I love these sort of stories. I've just checked out the pub on line. Well worth a visit I imagine. Please keep the stories coming, I'm loving it, and the memories are valuable.

Subject: RE: A guided tour of Ratcliffe Highway
From: GUEST,Nick Dow
Date: 24 Sep 23 - 08:28 AM

Excellent Anne. I remember the spice warehouses and also the hops that were stored there. My last straight job before I went professional, was at Saccone and Speed, near the docks. They sacked me for taking days off to do gigs. They did me a favour. Would not have pleased the superintendent of cargo, although he would have been proud of his grand daughter. I've just checked out the Captain Kidd pub. I would love to have had the job of signwriting the pub sign. I like doing heraldry the best, but that would have been fun. Wappers would have put me off hamburgers if I was not already vegetarian. We are getting quite a feel for the highway that we have been singing about. We've also touched on Rosemary lane and rag fair. The latter is mentioned in a song in Hammond recorded by my old acquaintance Peter Bellamy.

Subject: RE: A guided tour of Ratcliffe Highway
From: GUEST,Hootenanny
Date: 24 Sep 23 - 10:16 AM

I find it very hard to believe the story about the Hamburger. Unless I am mistaken the "Whopper" originated with Burger King or a similar American company and was so called because it was quite large compared to those of the opposition.

What relationship is there between bodies in East London being washed over three times by the tide and an American "Delicacy"?

Where does this information come from Anne? Sounds like a bit of fakelore.

Subject: RE: A guided tour of Ratcliffe Highway
From: GUEST,Nick Dow
Date: 24 Sep 23 - 01:10 PM

Consulting Grose (for what it's worth) there is the following definition in 1811.
TO WAP. To copulate, to beat. If she wont wap for a
winne, let her trine for a make; if she won't lie with a
man for a penny, let her hang for a halfpenny. Mort
wap-apace; a woman of experience, or very expert at the
sport.
WAPPER-EYED. Sore-eyed.

Considering the Ratcliffe area and it's reputation the word may well have been in common usage. That said Grose would be working for the Sun Newspaper in this day and age. So take a pinch of salt, or any other available dockyard spice!

Subject: RE: A guided tour of Ratcliffe Highway
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Sep 23 - 04:36 PM

The area Wapping (according to latest research) suggests a derivation from wapol - a marsh. The draining of Wapping Marsh, and the consolidation of a river wall along which houses were built, were finally achieved by 1600 after previous attempts had failed. The Prospect of Whitby pub has a replica gibbet and noose by the riverside terrace as a nod to Execution Dock.There was one pub (The Turks Head Inn, now a café) that was permitted to serve the last quart of ale to condemned pirates on their final journey from the prison to the docks.
The more notorious pirates were then tarred and hung in cages along the Thames estuary to dissuade any other wannabe-trouble makers!

Perhaps the most famous pirate to be tarred and hung in a cage was Captain Kidd, the inspiration for Treasure Island. In 1701 he was convicted of piracy and murder and was taken from Newgate Prison and executed. Rather gruesomely, on the first hanging attempt the rope broke and he only died on the second attempt. Even more gruesomely, his body was left tarred and gibbeted in an iron cage on the Thames riverbanks for more than twenty years. The actual site of Execution Dock is disputed, as the original gallows are long gone The current contenders for this rather dubious crown are the Sun Warf building (marked with a large E on the Thames side of the building), The Prospect of Whitby pub, the Captain Kidd pub, and the likeliest location of all – the Town of Ramsgate pub.
Part of the reason 3 tides were allowed to wash over the bodies is that the Admiralty had jurisdiction below the low tide point. Today the tidal range is 3 meters and by thursday it will be nearly 6m
(Measured at the Isle of dogs, just downstream)

Subject: RE: A guided tour of Ratcliffe Highway
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Sep 23 - 04:53 PM

Anne,
You are just repeating what I was pointing out "Whopper" = "Large, it was around during my childhood too which I think pre-dates yours.

I find it hard to see why Burger King an American Company would name one of their products after a very small district in a city three or four thousand miles away. Wapping becomes Whopper? It does not make sense.

Also I doubt that Burger King had access to your 1767 references. But am willing to be corrected.

Subject: RE: A guided tour of Ratcliffe Highway
From: GUEST,Hootenanny
Date: 24 Sep 23 - 04:56 PM

Apologies the above guest addressing Anne was me

Subject: RE: A guided tour of Ratcliffe Highway
From: GUEST,Nick Dow
Date: 24 Sep 23 - 05:13 PM

I have often wondered where the authorities were when all the debauchery was taking place in Ratcliffe Highway. We hear of the 'Watchman of the night' in 'Jack Tar ashore'. Was there one to call on the Highway? I'm wondering if it was accepted as a 'no go' area for policing. Maybe the Ratcliffe Highway murders were the turning point.

Subject: RE: A guided tour of Ratcliffe Highway
From: GUEST,Iains
Date: 24 Sep 23 - 05:14 PM

The documentary series London Next Stop makes a reference to Wapping and whoppers: The female narrator said that the area was called Wopping or Wapping because bodies would be fished out of the river at that location rather bloated hence the Whopper name for big burgers.

Seems an extremely unlikely explanation to me. The only part I can accept is that bodies in the water for a while get bloated and are not a pretty sight.
More likely it is simoly the narrator telling whoppers.

Subject: RE: A guided tour of Ratcliffe Highway
From: GUEST,Nick Dow
Date: 24 Sep 23 - 06:04 PM

So rattling rigging with a fireship seems fairly sanitised against the reality. There was obviously some respectable business transactions made, from tripe sellers to warehouse work as we have been told. How did they protect their business in a 'No go area'? This gets more interesting every post. Thanks all.

Subject: RE: A guided tour of Ratcliffe Highway
From: GUEST,Hootenanny
Date: 24 Sep 23 - 06:25 PM

Nic,

As you seem to be very interested in Ratcliffe Highway, I just took a look at one of my maps of the East End. Crutchley's New Plan of London Improved to 1829 shows that only a short stretch of today's Highway was named Ratcliff Highway running East from Wellclose Square to approximately New Gravel Lane, the next stretch is named High Street or Upper Shadwell, the next section is Cock Hill, the next is Queen Street.

Surely almost if not every port city has a rowdy entertainment area for the seamen ashore. I am no expert on British folk song but I would guess that several have songs related to them.

Subject: RE: A guided tour of Ratcliffe Highway
From: GUEST,Nick Dow
Date: 24 Sep 23 - 07:25 PM

Thanks Hoot. It's a poor folklorist who is not part historian and sociologist. Yes of course every town had its rough area but none is so well represented in the tradition as Ratcliffe Highway or Rosemary Lane. I just wanted a flavour of their history. I believe in understanding what I am singing or writing about. This thread has entertained my curiosity. There's always something to learn, hence our books and my magazine articles etc. Sorting the truth from the fiction can be challenging, but I can now see the area in my mind's eye in more detail than before. That's important to a singer (well this one anyway) and will affect my arrangement and treatment of the songs.

Subject: RE: A guided tour of Ratcliffe Highway
From: GUEST,Hootenanny
Date: 25 Sep 23 - 04:40 AM

Nic,

Further to my relative the tripe dresser he was at 88 Ratcliffe Highway from at least 1837 to 1847. One of his daughters was in and out of the workhouse/infirmiary with a sexual disease. His brother also had a tripe shop further east where the same road was called Shadwell High Street. Various brothers and cousins were in the same business in Bethnal Green and Lambeth.
Looking at my write-up on my family research I came across the following:

Ratcliff Highway was for many years a notorious street, being close to the docks it was full of sailors, drinking houses, prostitution and gambling and general mayhem and crime. Many men “joined” the navy or army here with the help of a recruiting sergeant or ship’s crew and a little alcohol. Ratcliff Highway is “celebrated” in an old folk song of that name. Because of it’s notoriety the name was changed to George Street but has now reverted to The Highway and is a busy route to and from Docklands which is now largely residential and high rise office buildings housing banking institutions)
In 2012 it appears that the banks have now taken over not only the area but the gambling and stealing. Is it time to re-name it again?

I hope this helps you a little.

Subject: RE: A guided tour of Ratcliffe Highway
From: GUEST,Nick Dow
Date: 25 Sep 23 - 05:21 AM

Well done Hoot! Just my sort of thinking. Definitely time for another re-name. I had no idea it was changed to George street, so thank you for that. I also had no idea that an STD could allow you in and out of the workhouse infirmary. Often untreated STD was just marked as 'Imbecile' on the workhouse records. The fact that your relative was allowed back out again is a testament to her father, who would have to accept his daughter back home again. This is all relevant to the genealogical research I am undertaking with the Hammond brothers collection. Yes you have been a help, and very kind to take time to post here. I'm still recovering from my heart attack so I get a bit tired, but when I have time I'll turn my attention to a bit more research on the Highway.

Subject: RE: A guided tour of Ratcliffe Highway
From: GUEST,Nick Dow
Date: 25 Sep 23 - 08:36 AM

https://theratcliffehighway.files.wordpress.com/2015/04/wallis16b1.jpg
A Map of the area in 1804.

Subject: RE: A guided tour of Ratcliffe Highway
From: GUEST,Hootenanny
Date: 25 Sep 23 - 09:36 AM

Nic,

Well spotted regarding workhouses and VD. The girl in question born 1849 was in the workhouse off and on in 1868, 69 and 70 usually "sick" and discharged at own request.
In November 1868 she was discharged from the workhouse to the Lock Hospital "venereal". I don't have a discharge note from there but she enters the workhouse again in 1869 "sick" and again in June 1870.

The 1871 census shows her living with her married sister's family but I can find no further information after that.

Her half brother my great grandfather also a tripe dresser was her cousin and by co-incidence died as a result of VD.

Re the map from 1804 you can quite easily see Rosemary Lane. The Rag Fair was held around the area at the west end where the Royal Mint once stood.

Subject: RE: A guided tour of Ratcliffe Highway
From: GUEST,Nick Dow
Date: 26 Sep 23 - 05:32 AM

How many times did you hear the story Anne? I'm just asking if it was common in the Wapping area, or just a tale you had heard once from one person. You can see how I'm thinking. If it was a belief or a wry tale within a greater community then it is indeed folklore and has a place in this thread and beyond. (Burgers not withstanding or being eaten in my case!)

Subject: RE: A guided tour of Ratcliffe Highway
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Sep 23 - 01:59 PM

I take no sides on this:
Wopper/wapping
https://www.tripadvisor.ie/ShowTopic-g186338-i17-k8439261-o10-Wapping_Wopping-London_England.html

Subject: RE: A guided tour of Ratcliffe Highway
From: GUEST,Nick Dow
Date: 02 Oct 23 - 09:09 AM

Thanks for those. The guided tour has been quite an eyeopener.

Subject: RE: A guided tour of Ratcliffe Highway
From: GUEST,Nick Dow
Date: 03 Oct 23 - 01:47 PM

Indeed! I did a concert with 'The young uns in Devon and they sang their song, and I went to school with a Jewish lad who's father was there. I met him but did not know how to ask him about it. I was only 14. I'm still in touch with his son.

Subject: RE: A guided tour of Ratcliffe Highway
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 03 Oct 23 - 12:55 PM

And it's not a million miles away from Cable Street, site of the "Battle of Cable St" in 1936 - not one of our most glorious moments in history! Just coming up to the anniversary of it again. There are a number of Cable St songs too.

Subject: RE: A guided tour of Ratcliffe Highway
From: Charley Noble
Date: 21 Sep 23 - 11:13 AM

Nice to see this thread.

Subject: RE: A guided tour of Ratcliffe Highway
From: Charley Noble
Date: 29 Sep 23 - 01:52 PM

If you'd like a tour, there's this old broadside:

An entirely different traditional song entitled "Ratcliff Highway" can be found in A SEA CHEST, edited by C. Fox Smith, pp. 169-171. She describes it as dating back to the 1840's. The tune is the perennial "Come all you jolly..."

RATCLIFF HIGHWAY ("Sailor's Frolic, or: Life in the East")
(Anon., Broadside circa 1840; tune: Tune: variant of Scots "Caledoni-o")

Come all you jolly seamen,
And listen unto me;
Avast a while, I'll make you smile,
And tell you of a Spree.
There's funny craft in Wapping,
In streaming colours gay,
And Pirates too, and Fireships,
In Ratcliff Highway.

So, mind those buxom lasses,
In their flying colours gay,
Or soon they'll clear your lockers
In Ratcliff Highway!

The Old Three Crowns I anchor'd in,
Oh such a jolly crew;
There's rough and smooth from ev'ry clime,
And copper colour too.
Such lasses there, so neat and fair,
With hair both grey and red,
Some with no nose and some no teeth,
And damag'd figureheads.

The Blue Anchor I next entered –
A Frigate took in tow;
I was run aground, my cargo lost,
I found that I must go;
I sail'd into another port,
And so by the next day
My hulk well-rigged and water-tight
Was in Ratcliff Highway.

Then there's the Three Jolly Sailors,
Such grog there in galore,
And lasses too, there's twenty,
I think as many more;
They foot it there so neatly,
But mind, without a doubt,
You'll find they'll cut your cable,
So keep a good lookout.

The Old Rose and Britannia,
Such Frigates there's at hand,
There's crooked Loo and squinting Sue,
And bandy Mary Ann;
There's skinny Nell the yellow girl,
And flash Maria neat,
There's bouncing Het and brazen Bet
That's been through all the fleet.

Then in the famed King William
That's in New Gravel Lane,
There's Jenny Jones all skin and bones,
And ugly Molly Payne;
Thick-lipped Kit as black as jet
With a bustle such a size,
And snuffling Liz, with such a phiz,
And Sukey Gravy-eyes.

At the famed Old Barley Mow,
Hailed a frigate tight;
Steer'd away, without delay,
And boarded her that night,
She took my watch and money too
And clothes without delay.
Two bullies stout they turned me out,
Into Ratcliff Highway.

So all you jolly sailors,
I'd have you bear in mind
There's Pirate Craft in every port,
And Fireships you'll find;
And if you wish to have a spree,
When out upon a cruise,
Get moored all right, so snug and tight,
In the port of the Paddy's Goose.

And mind those buxom lasses,
In their flying colours gay,
Or soon they'll clear your lockers
In Ratcliff Highway.

Subject: RE: A guided tour of Ratcliffe Highway
From: Manitas_at_home
Date: 20 Sep 23 - 09:50 AM

The Ratcliffe Highway I'm thinking of is just The Highway now and is the Limehouse Link road running to the City from Docklands. There are a few old buildings left but it's usually a bit of a race track. I believe Ratcliffe was named for the nearby red cliffs on the Thames bank.

Subject: RE: A guided tour of Ratcliffe Highway
From: Manitas_at_home
Date: 20 Sep 23 - 11:52 AM

Perhaps Petticoat Lane? This was/is held in what is now Middlesex St a few yards from the station.

Subject: RE: A guided tour of Ratcliffe Highway
From: Anne Lister
Date: 21 Sep 23 - 06:36 PM

I used to live in St Katharine's Dock, just off the Highway. I discovered while doing family research that a g-g-grandfather was a lock keeper at the dock, and his family lived in Limehouse. Prior to being a lock keeper he had been a ship's cabin boy.
However the coincidence of me living a stone's throw from where he had worked was all down to getting my flat from a lottery. Odd, huh?

Subject: RE: A guided tour of Ratcliffe Highway
From: Anne Lister
Date: 23 Sep 23 - 04:49 PM

As Ian says, Wapping is where the bodies were left for three tides to wash over and has thus given its name to a famous hamburger. Because the bodies were so bloated after the three tides, they were known as "wappers" or "whoppers" ... at least, that's what local lore said when I was living in Wapping.
I know the Prospect of Whitby well, but even by the 80s when I moved into the area it had become fairly posh, and there was also the Captain Kidd (pub).
When I was living in the area, and did a lot of teaching in local schools, it was interesting how the various warehouses (then in a state of dilapidation and now mostly demolished for very expensive housing) retained the scent of the spices, so that when the wind was in the right direction the air smelled of cinnamon.
As well as the g-g-grandfather who worked the locks, my g-grandfather was a superintendent of cargo at the docks a bit further east. Sadly he died well before I was born and so I know very little about his life.

Subject: RE: A guided tour of Ratcliffe Highway
From: Anne Lister
Date: 24 Sep 23 - 12:29 PM

Dear Hootenanny
The word "whopper" was around when I was small (predating the American Burger King company) and meant, and still means, something very big. A frequent phrase is "that's a whopping great xxxx" (insert noun of your choice). Someone who tells lies is often accused of "telling whoppers", as in "whopping great lie". I have no idea how old the word is. The pronunciation of "Wapping" is identical to "whopping". So "whopper" may have come from "Wapping".That's why the story is around. Bodies washed over by the tide would have been bloated by the water and therefore very much bigger. They may well have been called "wappers".
I can't tell you where the information came from originally, but when I was living in Wapping (from 1980 - 2001) it was said to me quite frequently. We were amused that Burger King adopted the word. It may be fakelore, but it makes as much sense as anything else.

Subject: RE: A guided tour of Ratcliffe Highway
From: Anne Lister
Date: 24 Sep 23 - 01:48 PM

The online etymological dictionary gives us: whopper (n.)
1767, "uncommonly large thing," originally and especially an audacious lie, formed as if from whop (v.) "to beat, overcome." Whopping "large, big, impressive" is attested by 1620s.

also from 1767
whop (v.)
"to beat, strike," mid-15c., of imitative origin. Compare Welsh chwap "a stroke," also of imitative origin; also see wap. Related: Whopped; whopping.
So yes, the association with bloated bodies may be fakelore, but you never know. The words still sound the same.

Subject: RE: A guided tour of Ratcliffe Highway
From: Anne Lister
Date: 25 Sep 23 - 05:35 PM

Dear Hoot
You seem to have misunderstood the point of my posts and the content. I haven't ever suggested that the Whopper was named after Wapping. I did, however, several times say that when I lived in Wapping there was a tale that the terms "whopper" and "whopping" came from the stories of bodies of hanged pirates being left - in Wapping, if that wasn't clear enough - for three tides to wash over them, thus leaving them bloated. And therefore it was quite funny that an American company should choose the name for their burger, as the connotations (in Wapping, at least) were far from appetising.
It is a piece of folklore, which was circulating in the area. It may well not be true, but that's a feature of folklore. I don't know why it doesn't make sense to you and I can't help that. I can only tell you (and Ians, who has clearly found another iteration of the same bit of folklore and doesn't believe it either) that that was, and may still be, Wapping folklore.
Unfortunately this is one of those social media moments which are quite difficult. I had thought this was an amicable thread with people contributing knowledge and experience. I lived and worked in Wapping. I have always been a storyteller and collector of anecdotes and local history. It is somewhat insulting to have that called into question because you don't understand, or like, or want to hear.
Thank you to Guest for reminding me about the Town of Ramsgate, and indeed the Turk's Head, which was going to be made into a local museum at one point. I used to go walking down Wapping Lane, and on past the Town of Ramsgate, very frequently. The whole area is very different now.

Subject: RE: A guided tour of Ratcliffe Highway
From: Brian Peters
Date: 20 Sep 23 - 09:57 AM

Nick, I thought the Ratcliffe Highway was in East London, running through Wapping and latterly called just 'the Highway'? I remember getting lost down there about 50 years ago at dead of night, having missed my last bus back to the Isle of Dogs. Its reputation made me a bit apprehensive!

Subject: RE: A guided tour of Ratcliffe Highway
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 24 Sep 23 - 09:53 AM

Anne, the Docklands Museum just atop of West India Dock might have some info on your relatives. It's a great museum. My youngest lad lives next to Millwall Dock and we have had some great walks around the Docklands area. Many of our Yorkshire vessels have ended up as houseboats in the London Docks and canals.

I have a big photo (1856) on my bedroom wall of schooners tied up at Wapping. The same photo is in the Museum.

I also sing the Ratcliffe Highway song that starts 'As I was a walking down London from Wapping to Ratcliffe Highway'. Been singing that one for over 50 years.

Subject: RE: A guided tour of Ratcliffe Highway
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 24 Sep 23 - 05:50 PM

Nick, correct. 19th century certainly a no-go area, and murder was rife. Some pubs that overlooked the river had trap-doors to drop the bodies through into the river, apart from being used for smuggling of course. The stories of tars being turned over are only the tip of the iceberg. I have read a few historical novels that give plenty of well-researched detail.

Subject: RE: A guided tour of Ratcliffe Highway
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 29 Sep 23 - 03:56 PM

Nice one, Charlie. Where does that one come from?

It's similar to this one published in a couple of John Ashton's books.

RATCLIFFE HIGHWAY IN 1842

You jolly sailors list to me,
I've been a fortnight home from sea,
Which time I've rambled night and day,
To have a lark on the Highway.
          Listen, you jovial sailors gay
          To the rigs of Ratcliffe Highway

Some lasses their heads will toss,
With bustles as big as a brewer's horse,
Some wear a cabbage net called veil,
And a boa just like a buffalo's tail.

I married a lass with her face so red,
She eat three salt herrings and a bullock's head,
She danced a jig then began to sing,
Drank a gallon of beer, and a pint of gin.

I have sailed, indeed all over the world,
And never before my flag unfurled,
In India, China and Bungo Bay,
As the spot we call Ratcliffe Highway.

One night a lady did me drag,
To have a spree at the Lamb and Flag,
There she got drunk, and got in a row,
And sold her shoes at the Barley Mow.

There is eels and shrimps as black as fleas,
And a covey a selling blue grey peas,
There's ugly Bet, and Dandy jane,
At the King William in Gravel Lane.

Yes! You'll see some girls as smart and neat,
As the Dowager Queen of Otaheite,
There's every colour, indeed 'tis true,
Green, black and purple, yellow and blue.

I went one night to have a reel
At the Angel tap in Blue Coat Fields,
I danced, and capered, and sung a song,
And married a lady they call Miss Long.

I fell in with a lady so modest and meek,
She eat thirteen faggots, and nine pigs feet,
Three pounds of beef, and to finish the meal.
eat eight pounds of tripe, and a large cow heel.

I met another borne down with fear,
She guzzled down thirteen pots of beer,
She threw up her heels and play'd the deuce,
And broke her nose at the Paddy's Goose.

You jovial sailors one and all,
When you in the port of London call,
Mind Ratcliffe Highway and the Damsels loose,
The William, the Bear, and the Paddy Goose.
             You sailors bold my song obtain,
             And learn it on the raging main.

I much prefer your version though with its frigate euphemisms.

I have sung the folk ballad for about 55 years.

As I was a walking down London,
From Wapping to Ratcliffe Highway,
I chanced to drop in on a ginshop
To spend a long night and a day.....etc.

Subject: RE: A guided tour of Ratcliffe Highway
From: StephenH
Date: 24 Sep 23 - 06:40 PM

This may be a bit tangential - so please forgive me - but all this talk of Wapping reminded me of this song by Agnes Bernelle (although I hadn't seen this particular clip before.)

https://youtu.be/x-o3bsnXTdk?si=9qacs_hrwN3a7YCR