BS: Witch persecution and Wales

Subject: BS: Witch persecution and Wales
From: The Sandman
Date: 15 Apr 24 - 03:27 AM

It appears that witches were not persecuted and prosecuted in Wales, to the same extent as they were in Scotland and England during the middle ages, any reasons or ideas about this anyone

Subject: RE: BS: Witch persecution and Wales
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 Apr 24 - 03:57 AM

"Old religions" were more acceptable in Wales?

Interesting topic if it is true. What's your source?

Subject: RE: BS: Witch persecution and Wales
From: Black belt caterpillar wrestler
Date: 15 Apr 24 - 04:27 AM

The "Cadfael" whodunnit novels have quite a lot of use of the difference between English and Welsh law in their plots at the time of King Steven. I presume that they are a fairly accurate rendition of the political/judicial conditions at the time.

Robin

Subject: RE: BS: Witch persecution and Wales
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 15 Apr 24 - 04:35 AM

If the witch finders couldn't speak Welsh, maybe they wouldn't have known if someone was casting a spell or passing the time of day.

DC

Subject: RE: BS: Witch persecution and Wales
From: The Sandman
Date: 15 Apr 24 - 04:41 AM

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-wales-68413510 Here is a source

Subject: RE: BS: Witch persecution and Wales
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 15 Apr 24 - 04:49 AM

That's interesting. The article suggests that it was at least in part down to the language, so my flippant remark was closer to the fact than I realised.

DC

Subject: RE: BS: Witch persecution and Wales
From: Raggytash
Date: 15 Apr 24 - 06:49 AM

"any reasons or ideas about this anyone"

Well Dick if you had read your own source it does give a precis of why witches were not prosecuted as much in Wales as other places. As Dave suggested one of the reasons could be that few judges spoke the native language.

You could also buy the book written by Phil Carradice which is also mentioned in the article you linked to.

Subject: RE: BS: Witch persecution and Wales
From: The Sandman
Date: 15 Apr 24 - 08:20 AM

Raggytash,
Dave did not suggest anything like that, Doug did , try and get your facts correct

Subject: RE: BS: Witch persecution and Wales
From: The Sandman
Date: 15 Apr 24 - 08:23 AM

I had read the article, and i thought it was an intersting topic to bring to people attention

Subject: RE: BS: Witch persecution and Wales
From: Raggytash
Date: 15 Apr 24 - 08:24 AM

I stand corrected. The rest of my posts stands.

Subject: RE: BS: Witch persecution and Wales
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 Apr 24 - 08:52 AM

I did say "Old religions" were more acceptable in Wales though. Which the article confirms

He also believes it could be explained by many of Wales' small, rural communities being so reliant on their local wise women.

"They made potions and charms and were an accepted part of the community," he said.

Subject: RE: BS: Witch persecution and Wales
From: The Sandman
Date: 15 Apr 24 - 10:44 AM

we could all buy the book,ffs

Subject: RE: BS: Witch persecution and Wales
From: The Sandman
Date: 15 Apr 24 - 12:51 PM

https://rcahmw.gov.uk/welsh-witches/

Subject: RE: BS: Witch persecution and Wales
From: The Sandman
Date: 15 Apr 24 - 12:55 PM

Raggytash , Richard Suggett has written a book on the subject too
Richard Suggett: Books
Amazon UK
https://www.amazon.co.uk › Books-Richard-Suggett › r...
Welsh Witches: Narratives of Witchcraft and Magic from sixteenth- and seventeenth-century Wales. by Richard SUGGETT

Subject: RE: BS: Witch persecution and Wales
From: Raggytash
Date: 15 Apr 24 - 02:33 PM

Well Dick it seems to me that you would be far better served and gain far more knowledge of the subject you profess an interest in by reading a book or two about it than to ask questions of a random group of people across the globe who probably have as little knowledge, and perhaps less interest than you have yourself.

Subject: RE: BS: Witch persecution and Wales
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 15 Apr 24 - 04:31 PM

Chwarae chi'n teg plant.
Play nicely children ;)

Subject: RE: BS: Witch persecution and Wales
From: The Sandman
Date: 16 Apr 24 - 11:51 AM

It is surprising how many knowledgeable people there are all over the world who are happy to discuss and pass on their knowledge to others.
I have learned from experience, that it is a mistake to take a negative view regarding the knowledge of random people, and never to underestimate their knowledge and others interest in a subject .

Subject: RE: BS: Witch persecution and Wales
From: robomatic
Date: 16 Apr 24 - 01:48 PM

Ignorant person here:

I always had a high respect for James of Bible translation fame. He seemed to be one of the more 'enlightened' ones (hereditary rulers of the islands). Then I learned he'd been quite the witch hunter, which meant witch believer-in. More Christian wisdom ground into dust for me.

But we'd been making a mess of Salem, MA. And the 'don't let witches live' business is apparently in the Old Testament, although I haven't checked up on the history of THAT happy little instruction.

Subject: RE: BS: Witch persecution and Wales
From: The Sandman
Date: 17 Apr 24 - 12:35 PM

there were possibly more than one reason , perhaps women were also held in greater respect in welsh society.
Were there no male witches? Where did this idea originate that only women practised witch craft, was it the established church that was responsible

Subject: RE: BS: Witch persecution and Wales
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 17 Apr 24 - 05:01 PM

It does say in the article that there was more than one reason, Dick.

Subject: RE: BS: Witch persecution and Wales
From: The Sandman
Date: 18 Apr 24 - 03:01 AM

Not many male witches found in wales or anywhere

Subject: RE: BS: Witch persecution and Wales
From: MaJoC the Filk
Date: 18 Apr 24 - 08:00 AM

To quote Sir Pterry: "Warlocks", you may say, but it's true.

Subject: RE: BS: Witch persecution and Wales
From: Anne Lister
Date: 18 Apr 24 - 06:01 PM

According to my husband, who spends his life in the 17th century (in a Welsh living history museum) and knows of what he speaks ... the Welsh were not as superstitious as people were in other parts of England and Scotland, and quite a few prosecutions were thrown out as they were considered to be blackmail rather than "genuine" proof of witchcraft. The wise women and wise men were a valued part of society, and it was only deemed illegal to do magic if it harmed someone. As to "male witches" - they were generally known as "cunning men" rather than "witches".

Subject: RE: BS: Witch persecution and Wales
From: Helen
Date: 18 Apr 24 - 08:13 PM

Thanks for the information, Anne.

Just a reminder i.e. to head some people off at the pass, about what the word "cunning" originally meant:

"cunning (adj.)

"early 14c., conning, "learned, skillful, possessing knowledge," present participle of connen, cunnen "to know," from Old English cunnan (see can (v.1)), from PIE root *gno- "to know." Also compare cun (v.). Sense of "skillfully deceitful, characterized by crafty ingenuity" is probably by late 14c. Related: Cunningly.
also from early 14c.

"cunning (n.)

"c. 1300, conninge, "knowledge, understanding, information, learning," a sense now obsolete, verbal noun from connen, cunnen "to have ability or capacity," from Old English cunnan (see can v.1). By mid-14c. as "ability to understand, intelligence; wisdom, prudence;" sense of "cleverness, shrewdness, practical skill in a secret or crafty manner" is by late 14c.
also from c. 1300"

This is different from the later meaning

"Cunning people are clever at planning something so that they get what they want, especially by tricking other people, or things that are cleverly made for a particular purpose..."


So, using the term "cunning men" is not necessarily derogatory. It probably referred to their knowledge and skills.

Subject: RE: BS: Witch persecution and Wales
From: Mr Red
Date: 19 Apr 24 - 04:42 AM

cf Geordie** "canny"

** inclusive of Makems, Sand Dancers et al

Subject: RE: BS: Witch persecution and Wales
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 19 Apr 24 - 12:22 PM

Why aye canny lad!

Subject: RE: BS: Witch persecution and Wales
From: robomatic
Date: 21 Apr 24 - 04:40 PM

Was going into an apartment that a friend and her mother were housesitting. It was numbered '1313'. I remarked that 13 was my lucky number. Mother turned to daughter and said: "He's not Irish!"

Subject: RE: BS: Witch persecution and Wales
From: Neil D
Date: 23 Apr 24 - 05:35 AM

Maybe Wales was so chockablock with witches they just didn't know where to start.

Subject: RE: BS: Witch persecution and Wales
From: The Sandman
Date: 29 Apr 24 - 04:06 AM

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
A model of a nineteenth-century cunning woman in her house, at the Museum of Witchcraft, Boscastle in England.

The cunning folk were professional or semi-professional practitioners of magic in Europe from the medieval period through the early 20th century. In Britain they were known by a variety of names in different regions of the country, including wise men and wise women, pellars, wizards, dyn hysbys, and sometimes white witches.

Subject: RE: BS: Witch persecution and Wales
From: Anne Lister
Date: 29 Apr 24 - 05:51 PM

Or even by no names at all, Dick. People didn't always need to label other people (we still don't) and sometimes the person you needed was just known by her normal name. In addition to the various terminology, there are different definitions of what people consider to be "witches", and again there still are. A good friend of mine, who was brought up in rural North Wales by her grandmother with a lot of knowledge which some might link to "witches", is always mightily offended to be called a witch. There was nothing in her knowledge connected with pointy hats, broomsticks, meeting in covens, worshipping anyone or anything or having a black cat.