What's your definition of folk music?

Subject: RE: What's your definition of folk music?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 17 Feb 00 - 08:41 PM

There's types of songs which don't necessarily have any single known author even when they are new - notably various sorts of work songs.

Subject: RE: What's your definition of folk music?
From: Jeri
Date: 17 Feb 00 - 05:19 PM

To be completely serious, my opinion is:

A folk song is a traditional song. A traditional song is one that's been passed down the generations (let's say about 3 just to stick a number in there) within a specific community, and is known to most members of that community. Calling something a "folk" song is a relatively recent thing to do. I'd imagine the people within the community where they were sung probably just called them songs.

Can you imagine someone saying "Hi, I've just choreographed a nice folk dance I'd like everyone to see." What folk? Where?

The folk process, however, involves singing anything people like. Songs and tunes that people like enough to pass on survive and may (probably will) be changed. No matter how old a song is now, or how many variants exist, it was new at one point, and once had a known author.

Subject: RE: What's your definition of folk music?
From: GUEST,Bruce O.
Date: 17 Feb 00 - 05:15 PM

Singing traditional songs with instrumental accompaniment seems to be a 20th century American innovation. The closest to it in England was in the very late 19th century when Thomas Copper sang the under part 'like a sort of obligato' to songs sung by his brother William.

Subject: RE: What's your definition of folk music?
From: Metchosin
Date: 17 Feb 00 - 03:06 PM

sheesh, Steeleye Span, Martin Carthy, the Byrds et al wouldn't be welcome? What's the world coming to?

Subject: RE: What's your definition of folk music?
From: Wincing Devil
Date: 17 Feb 00 - 03:01 PM

No Electric?

One of the ear-evident differences between Cajun and Zydeco is Zydeco's use of electric bass and keyboards. I've often joked that there was no worry about cajun music being Y2K compliant. Even if the electricity failed, Cajun music can be played. (I know, D.L. Menard uses electric, but so did Iry Lejeune!) Marc Savoy is all acoustic, as well as Paul Smith.

Et Toi!

Wincing_Devil
Never try to outstubborn a cat.

Subject: RE: What's your definition of folk music?
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Feb 00 - 02:11 PM

At the Ozark Folk Center in Mountain View, Arkansas, (http://www.ozarkfolkcenter.com/index.html) they don't attempt to distinguish between folk, popular, and country music, but they do have a rule that they don't play any music written after 1941. Why 1941? Because that's when the electric guitar was invented, naturally.

Subject: RE: What's your definition of folk music?
From: The Shambles
Date: 17 Feb 00 - 02:04 PM

Well what goes up…………………..

1st Folkie: "Look out! ""There's a falling folk singer".

2nd Folkie: "Well I would not say that everything he sings IS folk and-"

1st Folkie: "Don't you think we should move?"

2nd Folkie: "I think that it is very important that we make the difference here between-"……

SPLAT!

Subject: RE: What's your definition of folk music?
From: Art Thieme
Date: 17 Feb 00 - 01:32 PM

I'm amazed it wasn't noticed that, when the chasm opened up, I simply rose gliding like the feather in "Forest Gump", and thusly elevated by the correctness of my position, left the mangled bodies in the mud where they lie moribund if not already decomposing. The turkey vultures have descended to a great feast and the laughing of the hyenas can be heard as they circle and drool.

I, in my certainty, have risen, majestically, above the fray !

Art Thieme

Subject: RE: What's your definition of folk music?
From: InOBU
Date: 17 Feb 00 - 12:55 PM

Whats this?, a hand at the edge of the sink hole, then another, and... LOOK AT THIS FOLKS! The racers are climbing over each other to return to the track! IT IS THE RACE THAT WOULD NOT DIE! LIKE SO MANY MUDCAT THREADS THEY ARE AT IT AGAIN, NOW TUMBLING OVER EACH OTHER IN A HUGE BALL OF HUMANITY ROLLING TOWARDS THE FINISH LINE, WHICH BRENDY AND LARRY KEEP MOVING BACK FARTHER AND FARTHER, - JUST FOR THE CRACK!!!
Larry

Subject: RE: What's your definition of folk music?
From: M. Ted (inactive)
Date: 17 Feb 00 - 12:39 PM

If you ask for the lyrics and start a long discussion thread, it's folk music--

Subject: RE: What's your definition of folk music?
From: DougR
Date: 17 Feb 00 - 12:34 PM

CrowHugger: Your definition seemed pretty acceptable to me until it occurred to me that it also could describe Country/Western, a majority of what is now referred to as Pop/Easy Listening and even Grand Opera.

What about contemporary compositions? Wouldn't the songs on Rick's CDs and those of John Prine and many others that are not ages old be considered Folk?

Subject: RE: What's your definition of folk music?
From: Amos
Date: 17 Feb 00 - 11:54 AM

Memory is serving up something, Rick...but the quality is a little hard to assess...mebbe, like Max, it's time for a new server...

Subject: RE: What's your definition of folk music?
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 17 Feb 00 - 11:50 AM

Wow! Thanks for reminding me of that great old movie "CATFIGHT IN DEVIL'S CROTCH"! Now wasn't that with Rory Calhoun and Lisabeth Scott? Hmmmmm, nope, it was a Russ Meyer flick with a lotta naked women, if memory serves me.

Rick

Subject: RE: What's your definition of folk music?
From: The Shambles
Date: 17 Feb 00 - 11:49 AM

It might be a better idea to give definitions to all the other forms of music and see what we are left with?

POP MUSIC: Music by Young people, for young people to make old people very rich.

Subject: RE: What's your definition of folk music?
From: Wincing Devil
Date: 17 Feb 00 - 11:42 AM

I think we're safe to say that there are >6,000,000,000 definitions of folk music, one for each of the >6,000,000,000 folks on this planet. I disagree with those who say a song has to be X years old. I could right a folk song today (I think I will, just to be difficult!).

         /(   )       \ \_/ /   , /\ ,         /_   _\  /| || |      | \>   
  Wincing_Devil
  Joy of having 2 cats: Waking to a cat fight in your crotch at 3am!   




	

Subject: RE: What's your definition of folk music?
From:
Date: 17 Feb 00 - 11:02 AM

I can't say I KNOW the definition, I've been trying to avoid defining it.

I THINK Folk Music is music which has stood the test of time,or seems to have a timeless quality to it, and tells at least part of a story about the PEOPLE, that it was meant for. Ie, Union songs, Work songs, Rowing Song, Dance Songs could all be incorporated. For instance, songs written in the last 50/60 years, may not have stood the LONG time test, but some of those get asked for all the time. While Classical music in many of its elements don't SEEM to fit into the FOLK tradition since it doesn't seem to tell about the PEOPLE it was meant for, but they do have the TIME criteria down.

As for Traditional, that's so hard. Traditional is one which probably has been passed around by word of mouth for more than 2 to 5 years while maintining the gist of the story. ie Tom Lewis, Dougie MacLean, Archie Fisher songs would fit. They're faboulous stuff that catches the mind and heart quickly, yet stays both rhythmically and lyrically.

Keep this thread going. It's interesting to read the different takes people have on this music, which is so broad.

NOTE, we should not be limiting it to English songs only. I'm sure there are songs in Russion/Polish/etc which fit either of my thoughts.

Subject: RE: What's your definition of folk music?
From: kendall
Date: 17 Feb 00 - 08:16 AM

Lassie with a yellow coatie worked well for me. I used it not to get laid (crude) but as a proposal. It worked.

Subject: RE: What's your definition of folk music?
From: Lady McMoo
Date: 17 Feb 00 - 06:10 AM

The answer is clear to me:

folk music = music that no-one will ever get rich performing

My Belgian francs worth

mcmoo

Subject: RE: What's your definition of folk music?
From: Bill D
Date: 16 Feb 00 - 11:28 PM

guess who's been STUDIOUSLY avoiding this thread..(besides, I'm only up to page 87 of my magnum opus!)...

Metchosin..I watched a guy at a sing court a "girl in a long skirt and Birkenstocks" one evening with a series of songs...the one that did it was "Rivers of Texas"..(Brazos River)...*grin*

(and I think I like Charlie Baum's definition best right now..)

Subject: RE: What's your definition of folk music?
From: catspaw49
Date: 16 Feb 00 - 11:24 PM

"As they turn for home its still Big Art with BruceO and Doesterr and the entire field is now under the whip."

......A giant rumbling sound is heard and with a ground shaking noise, a huge sinkhole creates a chasm into which all the runners stumble and pile up in a heap..........

"Well, that's it folks. Everyone wins and everyone loses. Throw away your stubs ... No one ever wins these races and betting is a losing proposition."

Catspaw takes a last munch on the greenery and places a few horseapples and cider on the infield turf and wanders off.........

Subject: RE: What's your definition of folk music?
From: Metchosin
Date: 16 Feb 00 - 10:35 PM

My husband's definition of folk music, not Anna Russell's or mine,

"anything you play or sing in hopes of getting layed by a girl in a long skirt and Birkenstocks"

Subject: RE: What's your definition of folk music?
From: Little Neophyte
Date: 16 Feb 00 - 10:02 PM

My definition of folk music is everything my family, friends and business associates seem to not listen to.

Little Neo

Subject: RE: What's your definition of folk music?
From: northfolk/al cholger
Date: 16 Feb 00 - 09:59 PM

My definition? that sounds like fuel for a fire... somewhere between that preChild ballad that has been handed down, unchanged, forever...and a contemporary broadside, written and performed in the "folk style", is folk music. I think the definition has to fit certain criteria, that is it must conform to the oral tradition... I think that the music must have an element of continuity, with what has been done before... The music should be acoustic, on traditional instruments...you know, the banjo, accordion, bagpipes, and those others that we all love to hate... And most importantly, the music must challenge the concept of the marketplace...I do not believe that music is good because it is marketable, nor do I think that the marketplace is useful to maintain an atmosphere in which music can be maintained from mouth to ear, through the generations...As Charlie King says, I hope this is enough, "to inflame the fans of discontent!"

Subject: RE: What's your definition of folk music?
From: Amos
Date: 16 Feb 00 - 09:51 PM

Folks is folk, man. The funny lumps of protoplasm with two legs folded over at the bottom and the hearts showing. What's this hang up on time? Did "Long Black Rifle" have to wait xx years before it was a folk song? I thought so when I was 17, but I'm a lot more understanding now. So, the core is that these lumps which flap their meat to make harmonious sounds, do so creatively for their own enjoyment, and share these created sounds amongst themselves.

A

Subject: RE: What's your definition of folk music?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 16 Feb 00 - 09:36 PM

At the time. all days and all ages just can't help being modern. And any two people have to be folk.

(And, in spite of Bill Broonzy or whoever, this thread has demonstrated that horses are folk as well.)

Subject: RE: What's your definition of folk music?
From: kendall
Date: 16 Feb 00 - 09:14 PM

Another question. In this modern day and age, what the hell is a FOLK? Are there any left?

Subject: RE: What's your definition of folk music?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 16 Feb 00 - 09:10 PM

Unless it's not folk music, it's folk music.

So what isn't folk music?

(An uncouth horse wanders onto the track and starts going in the opposite direction...)

Subject: RE: What's your definition of folk music?
From: Mary G
Date: 16 Feb 00 - 09:04 PM

whatever music people take the trouble to learn to sing or play themselves that other people wrote or found or passed on....

mg

Subject: RE: What's your definition of folk music?
From: Alice
Date: 16 Feb 00 - 08:58 PM

(Oh, no!) Here we go again... now it's Art and Bruce, neck and neck, the tension builds, it's gonna be a photo finish....

Subject: RE: What's your definition of folk music?
From: GUEST,Bruce O.
Date: 16 Feb 00 - 06:59 PM

My definition: Folk songs and music are ones that have been sung or played traditionally, and has to be at least 60 years old to qualify, and must come from a traditional singer or instrumentalist. My definiton comes from looking at a vast amount of data (primary collections of songs, not anthologies, recordings of professionals, hearsay, etc.).

Subject: RE: What's your definition of folk music?
From: Bert
Date: 16 Feb 00 - 06:51 PM

GREAT definition Charlie but I think I'll still have to go along with Jon on this one.

Lej, I eagerly await the release of your missive.

Subject: RE: What's your definition of folk music?
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 16 Feb 00 - 06:43 PM

I am working on a comprehensive treatise entitled Square Dance Calling: Roots of Rap?, in which I give an indisputable definition of Folk Music. Look for a late Spring release date.

Subject: RE: What's your definition of folk music?
From: Terry Allan Hall
Date: 16 Feb 00 - 06:32 PM

Like the man said , "music of the folks".

That covers a lot of interesting territory!

Subject: RE: What's your definition of folk music?
From: catspaw49
Date: 16 Feb 00 - 06:18 PM

"As they round the third turn, its still Big Art by a length with doesterr on his heels and both are distancing the field. The Dreamer puts down his binoculars and throws away his tickets and goes off to curry BillinA and Catspaw still feeding on alfalfa and looking bored. Ol' Ted did not leave the gate and is going back to the stables while Crowhugger and Wincing Devil are dropping back and trail the leaders by 30 lengths. Vampire Jon and Amos are still losing ground as Big Art heads for the turn at the top of the stretch.........."

Spaw

Subject: RE: What's your definition of folk music?
From: Amos
Date: 16 Feb 00 - 06:17 PM

I don't think solipsism qualifies, by definition...

Solipsists of the World, Unite! You Have Nothing to Lose But...Oh, never mind...

Subject: RE: What's your definition of folk music?
From: Amos
Date: 16 Feb 00 - 06:12 PM

how many folk you got in there, Jon lad?

A

Subject: RE: What's your definition of folk music?
From: Mbo
Date: 16 Feb 00 - 06:11 PM

Folk music is whatever I want it to be! If I play ELO or British Invasion or Queen on my acoustic guitar--it's folk to me, baby!

--Mbo

Subject: RE: What's your definition of folk music?
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 16 Feb 00 - 05:58 PM

I have changed my mind and will offer my pig headed definition: If it sounds or feels like folk to ME then it is folk and if it doesn't then it isn't.

At least I can agree with myself on this one.

Jon

Subject: RE: What's your definition of folk music?
From: Amos
Date: 16 Feb 00 - 05:49 PM

Folk music is music created and shared amongst folk, for their own enjoyment.

Don't even start!

Subject: RE: What's your definition of folk music?
From: Charlie Baum
Date: 16 Feb 00 - 05:36 PM

Definition: Folk music is music belonging to a corpus we argue the definition of here in threads like this.

--Noah Webster a/k/a Charlie Baum

Subject: RE: What's your definition of folk music?
From: Crowhugger
Date: 16 Feb 00 - 05:22 PM

LOLWROTF!

Subject: RE: What's your definition of folk music?
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 16 Feb 00 - 05:21 PM

Ahh yes "Crowplops". I remember them well. Wonderful Celtic band. Didn't Martin Carthy work with them for a while?

I'll go away now.

Rick

Subject: RE: What's your definition of folk music?
From: Crowhugger
Date: 16 Feb 00 - 05:14 PM

In that case, Rick, Wincing Devil already said it. Just for the record all, I only give one sentence answers in my sleep. See? It's just how it is up here at the top of the tree ducking crow plops. :-)

Subject: RE: What's your definition of folk music?
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 16 Feb 00 - 05:04 PM

No! No! No! Crowhugger...it has to be a ONE SENTENCE ANSWER! Preferably a SHORT sentence! Perhaps pertaining to which member of the animal kingdom is incapable of delivering a version of "Tam Lin"!

You're right Ted! I'm just "discombobulated" today. Sort of like Catspaw is everyday!

Big Bill Bruinsly

Subject: RE: What's your definition of folk music?
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 16 Feb 00 - 04:55 PM

Well Rick, I still consider myelf to be pretty new to internet communications as I didn't start until May last year and it was a couple of months later that I first visited Mudcat but I already feel like an old hand at this particular debate.

I don't know how many times I have seen this topic between the various forums that I read and I think that the only certainty is that there will never agreement although I have seen some people getting very heated over it...

I will leave this one to others but while you are at, "traditional" also need defining...

Jon

Subject: RE: What's your definition of folk music?
From: M. Ted (inactive)
Date: 16 Feb 00 - 04:53 PM

This has gotten to the "who ever answers loses" point, and Rick, for all your eagerness to see this issue discussed, I noticed that you weren't fielding the question(Oh, sorry, I really am sorry about that...)

Subject: RE: What's your definition of folk music?
From: Amos
Date: 16 Feb 00 - 04:29 PM

Worth a dime, I say, CrowPerson. I got one here as soon as I finish taping up my starboard fetlock...

Subject: RE: What's your definition of folk music?
From: Crowhugger
Date: 16 Feb 00 - 04:21 PM

Rick, Just for you, I'll make a serious and proper entry. This is a one-time-only occurrence, you understand...

Folk music is the body of music created to reflect upon and share joyous and painful challenges of life. It is sometimes published or anthologized, but most of the time the music is passed directly from person to person in homes, bars, fields, woods, on tailgates, around campfires and the like.

The instrumetation of folk music has no arbitrary restrictions, in my view, but anything difficult to transport is not often seen within the genre.

$ 0.02

Subject: RE: What's your definition of folk music?
From: catspaw49
Date: 16 Feb 00 - 04:21 PM

"And as they head down the backstretch, Amos makes a move on the outside but he's pulled up lame!! A Dreamer leans out of the Clubhouse, peering through binoculars and looking for a long shot. Its Mets and Kendall and Hollowfox seesawing three wide now..BUT..BUT....YES, HERE HE COMES!!!!! Track experience shows as Big Art takes the bit and under the whip, charges to the front!!!Down the backstretch they go.........."

Spaw

Subject: RE: What's your definition of folk music?
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 16 Feb 00 - 04:21 PM

Of course this whole discussion suffers from the delusion that there's ONE definition that can possibly serve. 'Fraid not. There was at some early, unpolluted, halcyon day a time when "the old-time definition" that Art Thieme sings so eloquently about was correct, and moreover sufficient. .. In this latter day, however, the field has been talked over and the concept muddied and muddled so much, by speakers and writers with so many different points of view, and often so little contact with either "the folk" or with music, that there's no putting Humpty-Dumpty together again. .. Face it, kids, the expression "folk song" or "folk music" has been poisoned. You can no longer use those terms without further explanation and be confident the correct meaning--whatever it may be in your case--will be communicated. .. There. I may have just killed this thread.

Dave Oesterreich