Origins: Jolly Rogues of Lynn

Subject: RE: Origins: Jolly Rogues of Lynn
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Jul 20 - 07:51 AM

The Clancy Brothers and Tommy Makem recorded a version on the 1967 release "Freedom's Son's" titled "When we were under the King" Columbia Records.

Subject: RE: Origins: Jolly Rogues of Lynn
From: Bugsy
Date: 12 Jul 20 - 10:40 PM

This is a song I heard at at my first ever Folk Club sung by the very talented and sadly missed, John Pearse.

Cheers

Bugsy

Subject: RE: Origins: Jolly Rogues of Lynn
From: cnd
Date: 12 Jul 20 - 05:19 PM

Would you be thinking of The Highwaymen?

Subject: RE: Origins: Jolly Rogues of Lynn
From: Joe Offer
Date: 12 Jul 20 - 05:14 PM

Did the Kingston Trio or one of those 1960s guy trios record this one?

Subject: RE: Origins: Jolly Rogues of Lynn
From: Eldergirl
Date: 20 Sep 13 - 02:12 PM

I thought it was King's Lynn, but if there are other Lynns about, why not them?
Always liked the bag-pudding rhyme, too, especially the picture of the queen in crown and robes, wielding a very large frying pan.
Which reminds me of another rhyme:

In days of old when knights were bold
And pants were made of tin,
No mortal cry escaped a guy
Who sat upon a pin.

Profound thought, that.
(tee hee!)

Subject: RE: Origins: Jolly Rogues of Lynn
From: GUEST,GUTCHER
Date: 20 Sep 13 - 07:10 AM

In a post in OCTOBER 05 a version of the song has Old King Cole as the father, Kyle, the middle part of Ayrshire takes its name from the said king with that part of Ayrshire to the North of Kyle being the home of the Lynns of Lynn one of whom features in the ballad "The Heir Of Lynn"

"The bonny heir the weel faured heir
and the weary heir o Lynn
yonder he stauns at his faithers yett
an naebody bids him cum in"

There is also a place called Lynn on Tweedside.

Subject: RE: Origins: Jolly Rogues of Lynn
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 19 Sep 13 - 06:27 PM

I wouldn't read too much into this simple ditty. Dibdin rewrote it as a glee and as such you would probably find it in the many collections of glee books from the late 18thc. The Derby Ram suffered the same treatment among others. Glee clubs were common about this time, particularly in London. They also sang catches or rounds and I've often heard this song sung as a round.

Subject: RE: Origins: Jolly Rogues of Lynn
From: GUEST,babypix
Date: 19 Sep 13 - 02:25 PM

that is, COULD not sing, of course!

Subject: RE: Origins: Jolly Rogues of Lynn/Cplony Times
From: GUEST,babypix
Date: 19 Sep 13 - 02:23 PM

Gentle Colleagues

Hate to open this can of worms yet again, but something that doesn't seem to be addressed here is "Because they would not sing", is this merely poetic, or does it possibly refer to something more political, such as a cautionary tale for tradesmen would wouldn't pay bribes? name names (e.g., sing)? ...or am I being too analytical?

Thanks,

Deborah Robins

Subject: RE: Origins: Jolly Rogues of Lynn
From: GUEST,Beachcomber
Date: 25 Dec 12 - 07:33 AM

I well remember a young man teaching a guitar accompaniment class using this song as his illustration. It would have been, downstairs, in Cecil Sharpe House sometime around 1963/4 . I still have the verse that we wrote down with chords.

Subject: RE: Origins: Jolly Rogues of Lynn
From: Joe_F
Date: 24 Dec 12 - 02:55 PM

Part of the nursery rhyme quoted by Ian 12 Mar 03 also appears in the Scottish "Johnnie Lad":

When auld King Arthur ruled this land,
He was a thieving king.
He stole three bolls of barleycorn
To make a white pudding.

And wi you, etc.

The pudding it was unco guid.
'Twas weel mixed in wi plums.
The lumps of suet into it
Were big as baith my thumbs.

That makes more sense: big lumps, not just two lumps. However, the charming detail about the Queen frying the leftovers is missing.

Subject: RE: Origins: Jolly Rogues of Lynn
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Dec 12 - 11:13 AM

Jim in Thamesford Ontario [e-mail]


I came across this thread when I was trying to recall a folk ditty from my youth. It went something like this:

There was a farmer had three sons
Three sons to him were born
And he came right home in the middle of the night
And he threw them out of doors.
And he threw them out of doors.
He came right home in the middle of the night
And he threw hem out of doors.

The first he was a stout miller
The second was a spinner of yarn
And the third to be sure as a little tailor
With the broadcloth under his arm
With the broadcloth under his arm.
And the third to be sure was a little tailor
With the broadcloth under his arm.

The miller he was drowned in his pond
The spinner was hanged in his yarn
And the devil ran away with the little tailor
With the broadcloth under his arm
With the broadcloth under his arm
And the devil ran away with the little tailor
With the broadcloth under his arm.

I'm not sure if I have all the words correctly as my memory of the piece is not precise and I may have borrowed subconsciously from some lines in this thread to fill in the blanks in my memory. However, has anyone else heard of this version? It did not have any references to a king - why would it instead refer to a farmer? Second and third stanzas are very similar in content to those listed but I think the one I knew went to a different tune. I'm trying to place that melody as I think it has been used with other words - I'll add that info if I can figure it out. Input or comments most welcome.

Subject: RE: Origins: Jolly Rogues of Lynn
From: GUEST,Jeanne
Date: 22 Nov 11 - 06:51 PM

Hi, Bob C and hello, Charley N! Just coming across this thread while searching for something else. Bob, the version Bruce Olsen referred to tells essentially the same story as the Miller/Lynn/Colony variant, but to a different tune.

Claude Simpson identified "When Arthur first in court began" from a 1603 broadside, but said the song was likely older than that, as Falstaff sings the first line of it in Henry IV pt 2, II, iv, written 1596-1599. In 1631, the text was linked in Deloney's Garland of Good Will to the tune "Flying Fame," aka "Chevy Chase," mentioned earlier. More on this in Simpson, The British Broadside Ballad and its Music, 1966, p. 98. "Chevy Chase" suits the Thomas Dibdin text that came from his play Ivanhoe, I, iii (Ann F. Howey, et al, A Bibliography of Modern Arthuriana, 1500-2000, 2006, p. 456), but it doesn't work with the Miller/Lynn/Colony texts.

Ian C's post, the Miller/Weaver/Tailor version of the song (Charles Johnson, London, 1804), is the oldest source mentioned here of a text that suits the "newer" tune -- there wasn't a link to the Bodleian broadside in the thread, so here it is if someone wants it:
http://bodley24.bodley.ox.ac.uk/cgi-bin/acwwweng/ballads/image.pl?ref=Johnson+Ballads+fol.+84&id=23017.gif&seq=1&size=1

I'd be interested in knowing if there is an earlier example of the musical notation for the second tune than the 1878 sheet music already mentioned in this thread; of the two citations given above (Leonard Deming, Boston, 1829?-1851?, and John Church, Cincinnati, 1878), only the second has notation, and that one calls the setting a "New Arrangement." Since the text had been floating around since the beginning of the century in one form or another on both sides of the Atlantic, it's plausible that there could have been other settings, even by other names, in early 19th- or even late 18th-century Anglophonic songbooks. Thanks!

Subject: RE: Origins: Jolly Rogues of Lynn
From: Charley Noble
Date: 16 Dec 07 - 12:25 PM

Barry-

You're only as old as you feel!

Hell, I remember Dyer-Bennet singing this song at a concert at Bowdoin College in the early 1950's. His major recordings have been re-released from Smithsonian-Folkways Recordings. My mother says he also composed the final verse to "The Keeper of the Eddystone Light," the verse where the mermaid shouts "To hell with the keeper of the Eddystone Light!"

Cheerily,
Charley Noble

Subject: RE: Origins: Jolly Rogues of Lynn
From: Barry Finn
Date: 15 Dec 07 - 11:53 PM

Charlie, Peter Johnson just released a CD "Newport's Fair Town" & I just listened to The Jolly Rouges of Lynn & he has that verse in it but he also says he learnt it from Richard Dyer Bennet........sometime in the 1940's. I didn't know Peter was that old.

Barry

Subject: RE: Origins: Jolly Rogues of Lynn
From: Charley Noble
Date: 15 Dec 07 - 10:56 PM

I note that the final verse where the "little tailor skips through hell" is missing from all the earlier versions, which supports the family belief that Richard Dyer-Bennet composed that verse. But I'll check with his widow Melvene.

Cheerily,
Charley Noble

Subject: RE: Origins: Jolly Rogues of Lynn
From: Mrrzy
Date: 22 Apr 07 - 01:32 PM

A friend in Africa sang it this way:
In the merry old town of Lynn
When we lived under the king
Lived a miller and a weaver and a little tailor
Three jolly rogues of Lynn

refrain:   repeat last line 2x, repeat last 2 lines

Now, the weaver he stole yarn
And the miller he stole corn
And the little tailor he stole broadcloth
For to keep those three rogues warm

Refrain

Well, the miller was drowned in his lake
And the weaver was hanged in his yarn
But the devil got his claw on the little tailor
With his broadcloth under his arm

Refrain

I don't think I've ever heard it on a record or performed...

Subject: RE: Origins: Jolly Rogues of Lynn
From: GUEST,Bob Coltman
Date: 21 Apr 07 - 09:57 PM

If I understand the late Bruce Olson correctly, he seems to say the song originated in a parody later given shape by the celebrated singer-songwriter Dibdin. Judging by the scansion, it may not have used the tune we're familiar with (the later verses can be fitted to the tune only with difficulty). I quote from Olson's collection at erols.com:

"About 1600 a ballad came out on 'The Noble Acts, newly found, of Arthur of the Table Round,' commencing, 'When Arthur first in court began, and was approved King.' This was parodied in the 17th century. A 17th & 18th century version goes:

When Arthur first in court began
To wear long hanging sleeves,
He entertained three serving men,
And all of them were thieves.

The first he was an Irishman,
The second he was a Scot,
The third he was a Welshman,
And all were knaves, God wot.

The Irishman loved usquebaugh,   [whiskey]
The Scot love ale called blue-cap,
The Welshman loved toasted cheese,
And made his mouth like a mouse-trap.

Usquebaugh burnt the Irishman's throat,
The Scot was drowned in ale,
The Welshman had like to be choked by a mouse,
But he pulled it out by the tail.

But a version printed in 1781 commences 'In days when good King Stephen reigned.' Somewhat later we find in 'THe Universal Songster, III, p. 430, 1828 (attributed to T. Dibdin):

A Parody Glee Air: When Arthur First in Court Began

Wheb Richard Lion ruled, why, thyen
The Saxons wore long robes,
He entertained three serving-men,
And all of them were rogues.
The first he was a miller bold,
The next he was a weaver,
The third he was a tailor, good lack,
And they were rogues together.

The miller he stole grist from the mill,
The weaver he stole yarn,
The tailor he stole broadcloth
To keep the other rogues warm.
But the miller he got drowned in his mill-dam,
The weaver got hung up in his yarn,
And Tailor Dick went plump to Old Nick]
With the broadcloth under his arm."

Subject: RE: Origins: Jolly Rogues of Lynn
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 10 Oct 05 - 09:19 PM

"Sieffe"'s text is pretty much the standard song-book one, with the first line altered by somebody (probably recently). I'd guess that the tune, too, is the usual one; but she didn't say.

Subject: RE: Origins: Jolly Rogues of Lynn
From: Snuffy
Date: 10 Oct 05 - 08:43 PM

They would not "sing" to the king, would not be stoolpigeons, would not betray their valiant comrades in the class struggle against the oppressive monarchy.

Or maybe just because sing rhymes with king.

Subject: RE: Origins: Jolly Rogues of Lynn
From: Cool Beans
Date: 10 Oct 05 - 07:54 PM

Fascinating thread--informative and entertaining. But I have a question: Why'd the three rogues get in trouble for not singing?

Subject: RE: Origins: Jolly Rogues of Lynn
From: GUEST,Sieffe
Date: 10 Oct 05 - 05:00 PM

err . . I know this thread is so old it's smelly but I still haven't found the version I have been singing for years . . . help! searched everywhere I know so far . . .

mine goes:
"There once was Old King Cole,
and he was a jolly old king
and he had three sons and he sent them out of doors all
bacuse they would not sing
(because they would not sing x 2, and he had 3 sons and he sent them out of doors all because they would not sing . . )

And the first one, he was a Miller
and the second one, he was a Weaver
and the third one, he was a little Tailor
and there's three jolly rogues together (repeat as before)

And the Miller, he stole corn
and the weaver, he stole yarn
and the little Tailor, he stole broadcloth
to keep those three rogues warm (repeat etc)

And the Miller was drowned in his dam
and the weaver was hung by his yarn
and the little Tailor, he skipped through hell
with a broadcloth under his arm (repeat etc)

And the Miller stills drowns in his dam
and the Weaver still hangs from his yarn
and the litlle Tailor still skips through hell
with a broadcloth under his arm (repeat etc)

Subject: RE: Origins: Jolly Rogues of Lynn
From: GUEST,tom guest
Date: 20 Dec 03 - 02:41 PM

I've always thought of this song accompanied by a little dance or sketch by three men - part of a something like a mummers' play . Anyone got any ideas on that ?

Subject: RE: Origins: Jolly Rogues of Lynn
From: Snuffy
Date: 19 Dec 03 - 08:42 PM

The king told them to sing. They wouldn't, so he threw them out.

Subject: RE: Origins: Jolly Rogues of Lynn
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 19 Dec 03 - 11:39 AM

Love this song. It (in Dyer-Bennet's version) is to be on my almost-ready-to-publish CD, Uncle DaveO Sings: The Real Story.

One problem with doing a folk-song story CD, though: It's not very practical to do the little explanatory talk I normally do with this and many other story songs when performing in person. Yes, if you have room in liner notes you can do this, but in my case I don't. I think I will have to list the "liner notes" on my site, which is not too satisfactory, but better than nothing, I guess.

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: Origins: Jolly Rogues of Lynn
From: Dave Ruch
Date: 19 Dec 03 - 10:56 AM

Thanks Snuffy, and please forgive my lack of imagination here, but I guess i still don't get it...what does singing have to do with a royal command?

Subject: RE: Origins: Jolly Rogues of Lynn
From: Snuffy
Date: 19 Dec 03 - 08:14 AM

because they would not sing? - i.e they refused to obey a royal command

Subject: RE: Origins: Jolly Rogues of Lynn
From: Dave Ruch
Date: 18 Dec 03 - 02:11 PM

I've recently become very interested in a version of this song from English singer David Jones. My question is:

* what does the inability to sing ("because they could not sing") have to do with the mishaps these three fell into? Or is that a metaphor for their "ignoble" reputations?

Subject: RE: song info: Jolly Rogues of Lynn
From: Gareth
Date: 24 Oct 03 - 07:21 PM

A little late{

But recall, Lynn, or Kings Lynn was one of the chief wool exporting ports in Medevial times.

There was a duty on the export of wool, the "Owlers" because they worked at night, smuggled wool to the continent.

Chaucer, when he was no writing his littary work was a customs official.

Perhaps this might clarify matters.

Gareth

Subject: RE: song info: Jolly Rogues of Lynn
From: Blackcatter
Date: 12 Mar 03 - 10:54 AM

rich-joy

I'm curious as to why you refreshed this thread. Nothing wrong in doing so, but you simply refreshed it without comment.

Thanks

Subject: RE: song info: Jolly Rogues of Lynn
From: Ian
Date: 12 Mar 03 - 10:37 AM

I guess the scottish baker who told me that had large hands

Subject: RE: song info: Jolly Rogues of Lynn
From: Dave Bryant
Date: 12 Mar 03 - 04:24 AM

Doesn't sound like enough fat to me - the usual rule of thumb is two portions of flour (meal) to one of fat - by weight. A peck is normally a liquid volume measure equal to two gallons. You'd need huge thumbs to balance that volume of meal.

Subject: RE: song info: Jolly Rogues of Lynn
From: Ian
Date: 12 Mar 03 - 04:06 AM

As an addage to the song I often include a nursery ryme.

In good King Arthers time he was a noble King,
He stole three pecks of barley meal to make a bag pudding
A bag pudding the King did make, he stuffed it well with plums
and in it put two lumps of fat as big as my two thumbs.
Well the King and Queen did eat thereof and noble men beside
and what they did not eat that night
the Queen next morning Fried.


I am told that that ratio fat to barley meal is about right.

Subject: RE: song info: Jolly Rogues of Lynn
From: Leadfingers
Date: 11 Mar 03 - 12:56 PM

And of course Ron Shuttleworth wrote a lovely VERY right wing parody
in the mid eighties,having a go at the extremist activities during the miners strike:-

    When King Arthur ruled South Yorks
    He ruled it like a Turk
    He drove three brothers out of the union
    Because they dared to work

    The first two went below
    To make sure the roof was sound
    And the third he as the winder to bring
    His brothers from underground

And I am damned if i can remember the las verse at the moment. I will have to look it up and shove it in for all you hard line Union men to have a moan about.

Subject: RE: song info: Jolly Rogues of Lynn
From: masato sakurai
Date: 11 Mar 03 - 11:35 AM

The second link above should be:

Old Colony times (Cincinnati: Church & Co., John, 1878) [sheet music]

Subject: Lyr Add: OLD COLONY TIMES
From: masato sakurai
Date: 11 Mar 03 - 11:31 AM

"Old Colony Times" (ca 1800?) is reproduced in S. Foster Damon's Series of Old American Songs (Brown University Library, 1936, No. 6; with tune), with this note:

This ballad may have preceded even the first attempts at colonization in our country; but the opening lines of this version, sung from Maine to Georgia, and at least as far as Nebraska, were probably shaped about 1800, when "old colony times" began to seem very remote.
When John Lothrop Motley studies at Göttingen in 1832, he taught this song, one of his favorites, to his fellow student, Bismarck. Over fifty years later, in a speech before the Reichstag on February 6, 1888, Bismarck quoted "Old Colony Times", which he had learned from "his dear deceased friend", Motley. (Orie William Long: Literary Pioneers, Cambridge, 1935). This song is sung by the archbishop in Agnes Repplier's In Our Convent Days; and in Hardy's Under the Greenwood Tree (Pt IV, ch 2) it is also to be found, beginning, however, "When Arthur first his court began".
Where sheep were raised, the "miller" ran a carding mill (see Flanders & Brown's Vermont Folk Songs, "The Farmer's Three Sons"). In the colleges, the tune was once much used for less familiar texts (Journal Am. Folk Lore XXIX, 167; see also XXX, 350; XLV, 47).

    OLD COLONY TIMES

    1.
In good Old Colony times
When we were under the king
Three roguish chaps fell into mishaps,
Because they could not sing

    Because they could not sing
    Because they could not sing
    Three roguish chaps fell into mishaps,
    Because they could not sing.

    2.
The first he was a Miller,
And the second he was a Weaver,
And the third he was a little Tailor,
Three roguish chaps together.

    3.
Now the Miller he stole corn
And the Weaver he stole yarn
And the little Tailor stole broadcloth for
To keep these three thieves warm.

    4.
The Miller got drown'd in his dam
The Weaver got hung in his yarn
And the devil clapp'd his paw on the little Tailor,
With the broadcloth under his arm.

This version is copied in Margaret Bradford Boni's Fireside Book of Favorite American Songs (Simon and Schuster, 1952, pp. 252-253).

Later editions are at American Memory:

Good old colony times, and Bonny boat. ( Sold, wholesale and retail, by L. Deming, No. 62, Hanover Street, 2d door from Friend street, Boston. [n. d.]) [text only]

Old Colony times (Cincinnati: Church & Co., John, 1878) [sheet music]

"The Noble Acts Newly Found, of Arthur of the Table Round" (To the Tune of Flying Fame) is at Bodleian Library Broadside Ballads.

Printers: Coles, F. (London); Vere, T. (London); Wright, J. (London); Clarke, J. (London)
Date: between 1674 and 1679
Imprint: Printed for F. Coles, T. Vere, J. Wright, and J. Clarke
Illus. Ballads on sheet: 2   
Copies: Wood 401(61)
Ballads: 1. The jolly pinder of Wakefield: with Robin Hood, Scarlet, and Iohn ("In Wakefield there lives a jolly pinder ...")
Subject: Clergy; Robin Hood$qlegendary character
2. The noble acts newly found, of Arthur of the table round ("When Arthur first in court began ...")
Author: Deloney, Thomas
To the tune of: Flying fame
Subject: Chivalry; Arthur$qlegendary figure

Two later parodies of "When Arthur first in court began" are at Bruce Olson's Roots of Folk site (Click here).

Subject: RE: song info: Jolly Rogues of Lynn
From: Dave Bryant
Date: 11 Mar 03 - 09:02 AM

It's rather interesting to think that Miller, Weaver, and Tailor must be some of the earliest "Service" or "Value Added" trades. I expect that in the past these would have been regarded with the same sort of distrust as Builders, Plumbers, Double-Glazing Installers, Car Repairers etc are these days.

The Miller would normally have had a virtual monopoly and farmers always thought they were being cheated when their grain was milled. Weavers and Tailors were often journeymen and therefore would be suspect because they were external to the local community.

It would therefore have been considered amusing that these characters came to sticky ends. You've only got to look at this thread about lawyer jokes to see that things haven't really changed.

Subject: RE: song info: Jolly Rogues of Lynn
From: rich-joy
Date: 11 Mar 03 - 05:26 AM

refresh

Subject: RE: song info: Jolly Rogues of Lynn
From: Chris Seymour
Date: 17 Apr 00 - 11:28 PM

One of many things I find interesting, Ian and Art, is that the American version, with its reference to Lynn, Mass., is so close to the English version. So many songs changed so much on this side of the ocean0, particularly outside southern Appalachia. Also interesting to note the Bowdlerization that's happened to the various versions I've seen -- the version from the Bodleian is the first I've seen with references to whores' sons, for example.

My, the folk process is fun, isn't it?

Thanks again, Ian, for all your patient explanations and research. I've begun on the Canterbury tales. Sure enough, in the general prologue, Chaucer talks about the miller stealing grain from his "customers." Great stuff.

Cheers!

Subject: RE: song info: Jolly Rogues of Lynn
From: Art Thieme
Date: 17 Apr 00 - 06:19 PM

Even if the song didn't originate in the American colonies, it came, in American versions , to actually BE about the town of Lynn in Massachusetts during colonial times. That's what it meant to me when I found it in the Old Town School Of Folk Music's teaching songbook and that's what I told students it meant when I showed it to them. I doubt I was wrong even if the song originally came from the old Soviet Union like Pavel Chekov (remember him?) said it did in an old episode of Star Trek. ;-)

Art Thieme

Subject: RE: song info: Jolly Rogues of Lynn
From: IanC
Date: 17 Apr 00 - 05:44 AM

Hi!

Here's a version of the song from the Bodleian Library Broadsheet archives. It's dated 1804 but is transcribed from someone's singing so that it's obviously earlier than that.

THE MILLER, WEAVER & LITTLE TAILOR
A much admir'd Song, Sung by Mr. Chas. Johnston, & proper to be Sung at al Musical Clubs.
Published by Laurie & Whittle, 53 Fleet Street, London. Dec. 12th 1804.

1/
In good King Arthur's Day,
He was a worthy King,
Three Sons of Whores were turned out of doors,
Because they could not sing. Because they &c.

2/
The first he was a Miller,
The second was a Weaver,
The third he was a little Tailor;
Three thieving Rogues together. Three &c.

3/
The Miller he stole corn,
The Weaver he stole yarn,
And the little Tailor he stole broad cloth,
To keep these three Rogues warm To keep &c.

4/
The Miller was drown'd in his dam,
The Weaver was hung in his yarn,
And the Devil flew away with the little Tailor
And the Broad Cloth under his arm And &c.

Very little seems to have changed from this version!

Cheers!

IanC

Subject: RE: song info: Jolly Rogues of Lynn
From: Chris Seymour
Date: 14 Apr 00 - 11:07 PM

Thanks, Ian -- it's a whole lot of help. Historical knowledge is everything. I had no idea that people I assumed were independent artisans who owned their own means of production in fact had other people supplying them with raw materials that they, the crafts people, did not own.

I assume your audiences know most of this, while mine aren't likely to. Twill be a challenge to figure out what's essential to say in introducing the song and how to condense the essential matter so it's relatively short and sweet -- or, if not short, at least interesting. Martin Carthy is great at that -- something to aspire to...

Thanks again.

Chris

Subject: RE: song info: Jolly Rogues of Lynn
From: IanC
Date: 14 Apr 00 - 05:34 AM

Chris

Millers were paid on a commission basis. You brought so many pecks or bushels (1 bushel = 4 pecks = 8 gallons dry volume) and the miller returned you the flour in sacks less his cut (and the manor's cut too). Millers were generally suspected of taking more than their agreed share. A good source for this is a song (the version I know is from the USA) called "The Millers Will" or "The Miller's Sons" where each son had to tell the miller what share they would take if they inherited the mill. Ralph (who would take half) lost out to Paul ... . Chaucer also alludes to this in "The Student's Tale".

Weavers were paid "by the piece" (sometimes nowadays known as peice work or piece rates). Every week, the cloth merchant brought ready-spun yarn and collected the finished cloth. The weaver was paid for each "piece" on the basis of size and quality. Again, there was the opportunity to steal the finished product, which was worth far more than the weaver was paid. During the mediaeval period, this was considered a heinous crime as the whole economy of England (and possibly Wales) depended on exports of wool cloth to Europe.

When "mills" (factories) came into being at the Industrial Revolution, large numbers of automated looms were set up powered by water (and later steam). Less skill was needed for these and people were paid less. The hand loom weavers were regarded as having been cruelly treated and there was a great deal of sympathy with them.

Tailors were paid differently again. They were skilled workers who needed to first measure the customer then agree on terms for each piece of work. The cloth was provided by the customer, who also paid for it to be made up. Any spare cloth was kept by the tailor as a "perk". There were 3 ways a tailor could steal from a customer. Firstly, the amount of cloth required could be grossly overestimated. Then, the tailor could cut the cloth in such a way that large pieces were left but the finished product was "badly cut". Finally, the tailor could "skimp" the clothes, using less cloth than was really required and, again, producing a poor quality product. On top of all this, the customer displayed the tailor's workmanship to the public, so if he had been cheated it was often apparent to everyone (as in the tale of The Emperor's New Clothes).

This any help?

IanC

Subject: RE: song info: Jolly Rogues of Lynn
From: Chris Seymour
Date: 13 Apr 00 - 10:12 PM

More 'satiable curtiosity, Ian (I agree, knowing the context means you bring more to the song when you sing it):

Whom did the miller steal corn from? If it was his mill, wasn't it his grain? Or did people hire him to grind it for them, so it was their grain?

Similarly, from whom did the weaver steal yarn, since this is presumably a pre-industrial song, and he's not got a factory owner to steal from?

Ditto the tailor...

What say you? Or are you really tired of this?

Subject: RE: song info: Jolly Rogues of Lynn
From: IanC
Date: 13 Apr 00 - 03:54 AM

Chris

The passive voice is not ambiguous in English (as opposed to American) The miller WAS hanged, he didn't hang himself (if he did, it would say so).

The fate of the tailor is, however, a bit ambiguous. He might be skipping because of devils chasing him with firebrands or, more likely I think, because he was just too wicked and so became one of the devils favourites as you suggest.

By the way (for Bill) I think that what I was saying wasn't that you need to research anything but that quite a few people would be familiar with the context and that, if you are, it gives the song far more meaning.

Ian Chandler Ashwell Hertfordshire UK

Subject: RE: song info: Jolly Rogues of Lynn
From: Chris Seymour
Date: 12 Apr 00 - 10:42 PM

Thanks, Ian --

I didn't know about the lord of the manor's mills. I've bought a modern English "Canterbury Tales," and it's next on my list -- ought to have read 'em long ago anyway.

While we're picking apart this song, I want to see if my understanding of the plot is correct.

When the miller is drowned and the weaver is hanged, it's because they've been caught, and they're being punished, right; they're not committing suicide? (the passive voice is ambiguous) So when the devil scoops up the weaver, and he ends up "skipping through hell," are we to understand this as a better fate than that that met the other rogues -- that is, is he a favo[u]rite of Lucifers, skipping around down there? Or is he, too, being punished for his thievery?

How's that for 'satiable curtiosity?

While I'm at it, Ian, what's your full name, so I can mention where I got the words I've learned to the song?

cheers,

Chris

Subject: RE: song info: Jolly Rogues of Lynn
From: Liam's Brother
Date: 08 Apr 00 - 11:13 AM

Hi Art!

I liked your comments above regarding using this song in teaching... very good.

All the best,
Dan Milner

Subject: RE: song info: Jolly Rogues of Lynn
From: Scotsbard
Date: 07 Apr 00 - 12:08 PM

I learned a slightly different first verse:

In good old colony times,
When we lived under the king,
There was a miller and a weaver and a little tailor,
Three merry rogues of Lynn,
Three merry rogues of Lynn.
There was a miller and a weaver and a little tailor,
Three merry rogues of Lynn.

The remaining verses matched earlier postings closely, with the lines about the drowning and hanging played slowly and mournfully (invent chords to suit), and then back to uptempo for the devil got his paws, etc.

~S~

Subject: RE: song info: Jolly Rogues of Lynn
From: Bill D
Date: 07 Apr 00 - 10:15 AM

Yup- I realize that 'research' into a song CAN make it more interesting and there is lots to learn ....I was merely comparing it to songs which do 'tell the story' without having to explicate it. Though I see that various versions DO say more than the one I first tried. Perhaps I'll give it another chance...it IS a catchy tune....

Subject: RE: song info: Jolly Rogues of Lynn
From: IanC
Date: 07 Apr 00 - 08:28 AM

Chris

Sorry, not had time to reply to your query sooner.

Not sure where I learned this one and it is probably my own memory of more than one version, though I suspect that I learned one version in the seventies and it is mainly that. It was often sung round the (UK) clubs in the 70s as a bit of a joining in song with or without harmonies.

With regard to Chaucer, I think any modern english translation would give the sense of the mediaeval stereotypes. I'm not making any claims for the age of the song (though I think it is probably quite old) but the stereotypes about trade seem to have survived at least until the Industrial Revolution when things changed. I think these may be the trades where people had the opportunity for making a fast buck by quietly stealing stuff. Shakespeare has quite a lot of fun at the expense of certain trades and the literature throughout the period, as well as many folk songs, illustrates the theme.

For contrasting stereotypes, just look for Butcher and Tailor in DT. You will find that the butcher is a hail-fellow-well-met chap, who might get into trouble for seducing young maidens. The tailor, however, is unlikely to get in bed with a girl, is a coward and is often fooled by unscrupulous people just to provide a laugh at his expense. The attitudes survived into this century in some rural areas and most people going to hear folk music would, I think, still understand that tailors are to be poked fun at, etc.

Of course, the miller was particularly hated in mediaeval Britain because of the repressive laws introduced by William I. All domestic querns were outlawed and any milling had to be done at the mill belonging to the lord of the manor. During the peasants' revolt (1383-ish) probably the most savage action, at St Albans, revolved around the destruction of the Bishop's (he was lord of the manor) mill.

Cheers! IanC