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BS: I'm scared of Americans and Guns
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Subject: RE: I'm scared of Americans and Guns From: folk1234 Date: 20 Apr 00 - 10:10 AM Ya' know, I'm truly quite proud of my Mudcat friends. Despite the very controversial topic, and some horrible personal accounts, this has been a very civil discussion. It proves a point I have often made - Once you sing with a person, you have a very special life-long bond. We have not yet all sung together physically, but we certainly have done so vicariously and virtually. |
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Subject: RE: I'm scared of Americans and Guns From: GUEST,Mbo_at_ECU Date: 20 Apr 00 - 10:31 AM Too right, folk1234. And it's that bond of singing and just being with those special people that eases our pains, lets us momentarily forget our differences, opinions, and arguments about such topics as gun control--we enter a world where none of those seem of great importance to us at that moment. I love all you folks, and would gladly be a human shield for any one of you. --Mbo |
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Subject: RE: I'm scared of Americans and Guns From: GUEST,Simon in Hampshire, England Date: 20 Apr 00 - 10:56 AM Amazing how this topic can rouse such ire. Over on the Fairport Convention list recently this also came up. The main lesson from that is that there is a huge gulf between the US and the UK on the okay-ness of owning guns. Now, being English, perhaps I underestimate just how handy a gun is. There must be no end to the uses other than shooting people, eh? As Little Bill Daggett says in 'Unforgiven', they're for "snakes an' such". But I'm not exactly convinced by the 'hunting helps preserve the countryside' argument – if a nation is serious about preserving the countryside, it leaves it bloody well alone, not just bloody. Speaking personally, I'm afraid of ANYONE with a gun, be they American, Iraqi or Martian, and I doubt that owning one myself would make me feel a whole lot better. There is a proportion of nutters in any population. If guns are available, that means ARMED nutters. If I may paraphrase from memory the late great Bill Hicks (stats are for demonstration purposes only – proportions, not actual figures): "Here in the United States – and I think you know how we feel about guns – whoo, I'm getting a stiffy just thinking about it – we had ten thousand deaths by firearms last year. In Britain, where not even the policemen carry guns – twenty. Ten thousand… twenty. Now I don't want you to get the wrong idea. There is no connection – none – and you'd be a fool and a communist to think otherwise – between having a gun, and shooting someone with it, and NOT having a gun, and NOT shooting someone." Oh and by the way Bud: "If you think that outlawing guns will solve the problem, then all Britain has to do is outlaw them in Northern Ireland and voila! everything is peaceful and problem solved", eh? Kindly refrain from talking of a subject about which you evidently know nothing. The only people who have guns in Northern Ireland are the paramilitaries and the police/army. Guns ARE outlawed, and, oddly enough, who does the shooting? People WITH guns, or those without? Surprise surprise, people with guns shoot people! And there are (were?) active efforts to get rid of the guns, not just let everyone keep them in case they come in handy, "oh well, we've got 'em now, may as well join the Americans". Yes, if people want to hurt others, they'll do it anyway. Bridget says: "it doesn't mean that no one should have guns because a few people abuse the privelege." Yes it does, because nothing else (except maybe swords) is specifically designed to harm other people as easily, efficiently, and as many at a time, as possible. What you do is very carefully CONTROL those that are allowed for wildfowl, targets etc. Mistakes will be made, but rather fewer than in the present US free-for-all. But it's this simple – if you're not into targets or hunting, if you don't want to / think you might 'need' to / intend to shoot someone, ordinary folk don't need a gun. And if anyone disagrees I'll shoot 'em. Simon
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Subject: RE: I'm scared of Americans and Guns From: Caitrin Date: 20 Apr 00 - 11:02 AM Aldus, you make a serious error in referring to guns as toys. They are not. To consider them anything other than potentially deadly weaponry is to invite injury or death. Guns have always been treated seriously in my house, and I never got the impression that guns were toys, even when I was twelve. Another point...no one here has suggested that "bullies at school" should be handled by shooting. If you think that's what people are saying, you're right, that is insane. To be perfectly honest, Americans in general simply don't like the idea of having personal freedom curtailed. We don't tend to see why the rights of people who obey the rules should be abridged because of people who do not obey. Personally, if there were a way to legislate handguns away, I think it's a great idea. There is a place where I believe personal freedom takes a back seat. Unfortunately, it's not possible. You can take guns away from law-abiding people, but not from criminals. Violent crime will continue, regardless of gun control laws. |
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Subject: RE: I'm scared of Americans and Guns From: Wesley S Date: 20 Apr 00 - 11:26 AM I owned a .357 magnum but I sold it in order to buy my mandolin. And I will defend to the death my God given right to own and use my mandolin. { Does anyone know where I can get a good mandolin rack for my pickup ? } |
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Subject: RE: I'm scared of Americans and Guns From: GUEST,ayank Date: 20 Apr 00 - 11:54 AM There is also this thing called the Royal Ulster Consta-someting or other, not exactly against the right to their guns, or rubber bullets, or tear gas, or any number of lethal weopons. I think the IRA should give up their guns when the RUC gives up theirs. As for America, we were a frontier society not to long ago, we industrialized relatively over night, and the amount and number of guns as well as the attitude towards guns is simply a hold over from that period. Until recently, most americans were farmers and guns were a logical tool on a farm. We also like our drugs, and guns are a logical tool for drug running as well. Thirdly, blacks who have been totally denied access to the mainstream society have found gang membership a logical alternative, and I can't say as I blame them. What you Brits did to Catholics, we do to blacks and other minoritys, and I don't blame them for not waiting for the elite to become enlightned and take matters into their own hands. The word is a very dangerous place, and their was this thing called the British Empire that is most culpable for it, so if you don't like the way things our, you have your nation/state to blame. |
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Subject: RE: I'm scared of Americans and Guns From: Midchuck Date: 20 Apr 00 - 12:00 PM I know I shouldn't do this. I know I'm just going to make things worse. But the temptation is just too much. Peter. (Who owns several handguns, loves to shoot them, and has never in his life knowingly fired a gun at a living thing.)
Something to Shoot
I was born and raised 'way out west
We got shotguns and six-guns, we got a shitload of guns,
There's a whole herd of elk, right there in a line,
I don't care about the future, don't care 'bout the past;
Now don't you tailgate me son, get off my back
(Repeat first verse) |
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Subject: RE: I'm scared of Americans and Guns From: catspaw49 Date: 20 Apr 00 - 12:01 PM I'm sorry Wes, but I have turned you in to Bureau of Funshit Foolery (BOFF) for posession of a lethal instrument without permit. As I'm sure you are aware, although the Bill of Rights grants each citizen to the inalienable right to own a howitzer, mandolins and their ilk are strictly regulated and our founding fathers were wise not to include them in the constitution. Each year, thousands of US citizens are attacked by mando playing fools and the assault on their sensibilities has taken a toll and forced many to purchase a Glock. Their cousin, the tiple, a bastard offspring of the guitar and mandolin has already been used by the CIA for the overthrow of several third world regimes and indeed speculation runs high that CIA/Mafia Tiplers were in Dallas in 1963, although the Warren Commission dismissed the notion in favor of the "Single String Theory." Best advice I can give you is to give yourself up now before BOFF agents establish a perimeter around your domicile, shoot your dog, kid, and wife, with legal firearms and confiscate your mandolin. Spaw |
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Subject: RE: I'm scared of Americans and Guns From: Hollowfox Date: 20 Apr 00 - 12:17 PM Lizzie, gun debates aside, I think the important part of your posting is the fear. It's a brave thing to admit a fear in public, especially in such an open forum as this. Please don't fall prey to stereotypes. The gun-toting American is no more typical of this country than the tweed-wearing man with the monocle who says, "Pip, pip." all the time is typical of yours. Any country can be typified by a wide spectrum of "typical" stereotypes, from the best to the worst. Come back and visit soon. You'll find that this fringe element (folk) will show, IMHO, a truer picture of the USA than television. Love, Mary. |
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Subject: RE: I'm scared of Americans and Guns From: GUEST,Rana Date: 20 Apr 00 - 12:23 PM Hi, Had to sort out some "work permit" details and had to FAX the Canadian "Application for an Employment Authorisation" form to a US agency for a British artist. They were somewhat irate by the bureaucracy (which I've experienced the other way round - so no side should complain). The artist was somewhat amused by question 19f:- In periods of either peace or war, have you ever been involved in the commision of a war crime or crime against humanity, such as: willful killing, torture, attacks upon, enslavement, starvation or other inhumane acts commited against civilians or prisoners of war; or deportation of civilians? He wasn't sure whether they were talking about his guitar playing! Wasn't sure whether to post it here or the US/Canadian thread, but here it is. Cheers Rana |
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Subject: RE: I'm scared of Americans and Guns From: Wesley S Date: 20 Apr 00 - 12:26 PM It's very true that I sold a gun to get a mandolin { often junkies will sell possesions to fuel their habits } but I neglected to get the proper permits. If you make mandolins illegal only outlaws will have mandolins. Because of your advice I will now endevor to obtain a "right to carry a concealed mandolin". To prove to you that I'm not a radical let me assure you that I consider a tiple to be overkill. No law abiding musician needs any more than 8 strings on an instrument. Twelve string guitar season excluded of course. And I do support a 5 day waiting period and stringent background checks for anyone who wants to purchase a tiple. Of course the desire to obtain one means that you will flunk the background check. Lets round up all the tiple players before it's too late. I should probablly contact you off line to tell you about the rumors concerning the grassy knoll tiplers. I wouldn't want the truth to get around. The truth is out there. |
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Subject: RE: I'm scared of Americans and Guns From: catspaw49 Date: 20 Apr 00 - 12:34 PM I'm glad you have seen fit to do the right thing Wesley! The Grassy Knoll Tiplers........As time passes we are confronted with more and more stories such as yours and the light they shed on that day in Dallas can no longer be swept aside. Oliver Stone has a "Director's Cut" of "JFK" due to be released in July which includes the previously unseen portions of his film which includes the GNT group and their actions before and after that tragic day. Spaw |
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Subject: RE: I'm scared of Americans and Guns From: GUEST,Aldus Date: 20 Apr 00 - 12:36 PM Dear Guest ayank; your knowledge of history is rudimentary at best and should not be used in a debate where facts are respected. Canada also was a frontier country..much more recently I might add, than America...they do not share this gun toting philosophy. Bad history cannot justify blind stupidity.......guns are designed to kill things and they do........in large numbers. It is evident that the country with the highest murder rate also has the highest number of Guns...that is not an accident. As for the curtailment of personal freedom...it happens all the time in democratic countries..it is called the rule of law. |
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Subject: RE: I'm scared of Americans and Guns From: Kim C Date: 20 Apr 00 - 12:42 PM Why, yes, I too am afraid of Americans with guns. That is precisely why there is a loaded pistol under the sofa, in case some idiot decides to come into my house without permission with the express intent of doing me harm. What the media doesn't tell you is that thousands of crimes are prevented by honest citizens with guns, or other weapons, or household items they used as weapons. Criminals don't really want to get hurt either. What they also don't tell you is that crime is up in Australia since people turned in their guns, because now the criminals (who still have guns) know that people have little way of defending themselves. I listen to international stations over the Net and even in countries where guns are banned, they still have murders and suicides and all manner of terrible things, including gun violence. Too many people have the mistaken idea that if guns went away, all crimes would go away too. WRONG! If I remember right, Cain didn't slew Abel with a firearm. Remember what happened to Germany in WWII? Hitler took away everyone's guns. You all know what happened after that. Beware a government that doesn't want you to defend yourself. Beware, beware, beware... I can't say it enough. History has shown that whenever a government wants to subjugate people, they take away their defense. I have a right to defend myself against thugs. That's why I have a gun. If you don't want to have one, that is your choice. But don't try to take away my choice. Regards ------------------ Kim |
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Subject: RE: I'm scared of Americans and Guns From: Wesley S Date: 20 Apr 00 - 12:45 PM Spaw - I live in Ft Worth just a few miles west of Dallas { it's too hot there } . I can assure you that even though Oliver Stone exposes the Grassy Knoll Tiplers he was only allowed to film those things that the GKT's allowed him to see. Remember -"The partial truth is no truth at all. " |
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Subject: RE: I'm scared of Americans and Guns From: GUEST,aldus Date: 20 Apr 00 - 12:59 PM We are back at the bad history again. This struggle to justify the gun society is as frightening as the guns themselves. If you wish to use statistics , use this one...America has the highest murder rate in the western world...it has the highest level of gun ownership..is there a realionship between these things ? There are many countries where law abiding citizens don't feel the need to be armed..in fact, In Britian and in parts of Canada, the police are not armed....yet they have FAR lower murder rates. Why ? |
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Subject: RE: I'm scared of Americans and Guns From: harpgirl Date: 20 Apr 00 - 01:03 PM The last time I looked, democracy required dissent. Maybe we could just give everyone who wanted to own a firearm a means test. Every month they would have to prove their need to have a firearm by proving that they needed to own a firearm to eat, to protect themselves from the really dangerous people in the United States, to maintain their valuable collections, or whatever other reasons they had. Then if the proof wasn't good enough we could take their firearms away and make them begin the means test all over again the next month. Oh wait, we do that for women with children trying to survive on welfare. Oh well, if it's good enough for them it's certainly good enough for the firearms enthusiasts! And while I am saying what I really think I believe we should add an amendment called the "ERA". It's my right to believe what I want to. This is America. |
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Subject: RE: I'm scared of Americans and Guns From: catspaw49 Date: 20 Apr 00 - 01:13 PM Wesley it is important that you come forward with whatever you know regarding the GKT. It is the right of everyone to know exactly what went on that day. As an American and a Texan you know as well as any that the people of this country have been seriously duped and your knowledge could result in the truth finally coming out, not to mention a lucrative book and movie deal. (and folks, give it a break........This subject has been hashed over ad infinitum and I have yet to see anyone suddenly change their mind in either direction. As folk1234 said, its great we can discuss this without rancor, but things are getting close to an uncomfortable edge here and regardless of your personal feelings on the matter, it is most important that we can still "sing" together) Spaw |
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Subject: RE: I'm scared of Americans and Guns From: Caitrin Date: 20 Apr 00 - 01:15 PM Right on, harpgirl. I may disagree with people, but I believe they're fully entitled to their opinions. (Of course, they're wrong, but I'm willing to let them be wrong. Note presence of tongue in cheek.) Ok, Aldus, let's say we take your word for it that the murder rates are lower. Has gun-related crime stopped? Is it appreciably different from before guns were banned? |
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Subject: RE: I'm scared of Americans and Guns From: Kelida Date: 20 Apr 00 - 01:15 PM Obviously, guns are always going to be a big debate, but I'm going to add another 2 cents to the conversation here. I know I trivialized being robbed at gunpoint, but here's a better account of it. I used to work at the local Subway restaurant, and I had been closing the store at 10 or 11 at night by myself for close to 6 months, just as other people had for 13 YEARS with no incedent. Two guys came in and pulled a gun on me, tied me up with some tape, and proceeded to take the $134 that was in the register. It only took about 1 minute, and they were gone. By this time, I was hyperventilating and pretty much just freaking out, but I managed to call 911. Now, over 2 months later I haven't even HEARD from the police in 6 weeks, and those 2 men are still on the loose. I could have been killed! In any case though, what's the point of dwelling on it? Just because I was a victim of someone holding a gun doesn't mean that I think my grandfather should give up his gun collection, which incedentally, I have never touched or wanted to touch, for all that they have always been in easy reach. I myself have a rifle and a handgun that I only vaguely know how to use, and have no desire to use. I have grown up in a family where guns are always around, and several of my family members collect weapons. My philosophy is that the way to stop violence is to punish the perpetrators. If you take away guns, what about all the other things people could use as weapons? Knives, forks, pencils, clubs, cars, sticks, rocks, bare hands? If people want to harm someone, they will use anything. The problem isn't that weapons are available, the problem is that they are available to the wrong people--people who are out on the streets when they should be behind bars. Peace--Keli |
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Subject: RE: I'm scared of Americans and Guns From: katlaughing Date: 20 Apr 00 - 01:21 PM Right on, Harpgirl and here's to well-aimed can of spray paint for non-lethal self-defense! Yer right, Spaw, sorry I did get sucked in, again! |
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Subject: RE: I'm scared of Americans and Guns From: kendall Date: 20 Apr 00 - 01:30 PM Canada is not free of gun violence in the past. The government wiped out the Metis at a place called Batoche in Saskatchawan in 1885. There is a song ..and never mind their Gatlin guns, if we lose this time, we've lost forever..its by Bill Gallager called, The Last Battle. It's on Gordon Boks new cd, In The Kind Land. |
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Subject: RE: I'm scared of Americans and Guns From: Ely Date: 20 Apr 00 - 01:34 PM Now I'm going to put my foot in my mouth. Anyone who grew up in a house with bullet holes in the venetian blinds was not the child of a responsible gun owner, and should have been scared. I know plenty of people who do not own guns, would not own guns, and are in favor of gun-control laws (and I'm from Texas). Unfortunately, it's the really nasty stuff that gets all the attention. My brother is a Civil War reenactor and owns a rifle and a handgun, so I don't feel that I can fairly criticize those who see gun ownership as a right, even if I suspect that our reasons for owning guns vary a lot. Frankly, even if we did own these guns for protection, I would not be willing to bank on them to protect me in the panicky heat of the moment. I will never be comfortable with the "Constitutional protection" afforded gun ownership. Individuals carrying weapons for personal protection are not a well-regulated militia. Most Americans are no longer at risk of attack by wild animals or Native Americans (not that the Native Americans weren't amply justified). Most Americans don't _need_ to hunt for food, either. |
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Subject: RE: I'm scared of Americans and Guns From: Wesley S Date: 20 Apr 00 - 01:41 PM Sorry Spaw - No can do. They've won for now. The GKT have already cost me too much - including the love of a good dame. As I said before - Dallas is too hot for me now. But someday - somehow - they'll slip up. And I'll be ready for them. Until then I'll keep my mandolin in tune and wait. { Really - I have to wonder why people post to these types of threads. Usually people are on one side of the issue or the other and there is nothing any of us can say that will change their minds. There is nothing any of us can say about gun control, abortion, or Elian that will make us slap our foreheads and say "Oh my God - I was wrong - and they were right all along. I've been such a fool . Thank God I checked into the Mudcat to get straightened out on this issue". To me it's a big waste of time. But that's just my opinion. Heard any good CD's lately?? I'm looking for something new that features the Irish Bouzouki} |
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Subject: RE: I'm scared of Americans and Guns From: GUEST,Paula Date: 20 Apr 00 - 01:43 PM Lizzie, I'm from Glasgow. I lived in England for three years and now I live in Ohio, America. Let me tell you that Americans are the most generous, kind, well mannered people I have ever known and,in my seven years here, I haven't met many that I don't like. Of course there's problems with guns, as there is all over the place, Britain included. However, I'm more afraid of being chibbed with a knife in Glasgow than I am of being shot by a gun in America. Maybe you have to visit the country before you decide you're afraid of Americans. Besides, if it wasn't for the courage and generousity of Americans saving our cans during the war, we'd all be German!!! Have gratitude. |
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Subject: RE: I'm scared of Americans and Guns From: Mbo Date: 20 Apr 00 - 01:45 PM Wes, can you play some George Winston on yer mandolin for us? That would be COOL!!! --Mbo |
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Subject: RE: I'm scared of Americans and Guns From: Whistle Stop Date: 20 Apr 00 - 01:46 PM Everyone has a right to think what they want, and to express themselves, regardless where they stand on any particular issue. I wish people would stop with the "shut up, you idiot" messages. I've spent a lot of time with guns -- eight years in the military, expert marksman with an M-16, 45-caliber and 9-mm automatic pistols, extensively trained in law enforcement procedures, riot control, etc. My dirty little secret is that I LOVE guns -- I love the way they feel when I shoot them, I love the way all the moving parts work together, and most especially I love the way a gun makes me feel like a tough guy. I am not alone, and anyone who is experienced with a gun (particularly a handgun) and is honest will tell you the same thing. Start carrying a gun, and right away you feel like John Wayne. That's why we need to get rid of most of them, and tightly control the rest. Gun control may be difficult, but if we want to stop the insane escalation of violence, we have to either tightly control the guns or tightly control the people -- all 300 million of them in this country, for starters. The whole "assault weapon" thing is basically a red herring; only a very small percentage of the gun deaths in this country are caused by assault weapons. The Second Amendment argument is bogus -- the Supreme Court has consistently and correctly ruled that the Second Amendment protects local militias from having their weapons taken away, but does not confer an automatic, inalienable right to individual gun ownership. Besides, the Second Amendment refers to "the right to keep and bear arms" -- which is pretty broad, and includes nuclear bombs, nerve gas, and virtually any other evil device known to man (or as yet unknown). Anybody care to argue that the Constitution says we all are allowed to stockpile nuclear weapons? Anyone want to continue living in this country if the answer to that question is yes? We in America not only HAVE the most guns, we also MAKE and EXPORT the most guns. Given the economic interests involved, banning them wouldn't be easy. And no, it isn't a stand-alone remedy, and it wouldn't prevent every crime. But it would substantially reduce the level of violence in this country, and for that reason it's worth doing. Either that, or let's learn to live with the high level of violent crime that is such an unfortunate byproduct of our American society and culture |
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Subject: RE: I'm scared of Americans and Guns From: Jim the Bart Date: 20 Apr 00 - 01:58 PM Didn't want to say anything, but good lord you just can't help it sometimes. I neither condone nor condemn owning guns. Would I like Lizzie (and my lovely family, friends and self) to be free of the fear of guns? You betcha! But that just ain't in the cards. I believe someone used the words "Pandora's Box" before in this thread. The box is open - the guns are out there. Outlawing them doesn't make them go away. Can we control them better? The debate rages on and, once again, it runs in all the wrong directions. Humans need to learn to control themselves (and I'm not talking about mudcatters here, the self-control in this group is admirable). What if nobody felt the need to shoot anything? Or oppress anything? Or marginalize anything? We, as a species, will do and allow the most outrageous acts, justifying all the way. . . It's religion, and economics, and nationalism, and all kinds of fear-driven weirdness that scares me - not Americans with guns (and I walk among them). It's not insame to own a gun; it's not insane to oppose gun ownership. And it's absolutely necessary to continue to talk about all of this uncomfortable stuff. How do you stop people from killing each other? Refuse to do it yourself. Refuse to brutalize another human, physically, mentally, psychologically . . . Figure out what is really important to you and refuse to deny it to someone else. Itmay not seem like much, but it's a start. |
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Subject: RE: I'm scared of Americans and Guns From: Jon Freeman Date: 20 Apr 00 - 02:05 PM I still can't understand the thrill some people get out of shooting guns. I have used a 45 automatic, a 38 special and a couple of rifles but I found that once I got over the initial thrill of hanling a gun and finding out that I could hit things, the whole thing got very boring - each to their own I suppose... Looking back, what we did was stupid as well. A group of us met in a pub before going off to an old slate quarry that was used as a shooting range with the person who owned the guns. There were about 8 of us and I for one would have drunk about 6 pints before going there... Jon |
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Subject: RE: I'm scared of Americans and Guns From: GUEST,Rana Date: 20 Apr 00 - 02:23 PM From the BBC Online webpage, re. Farmer found guilty of murder in "defending his property": ------ Jailing Martin, Mr Justice Owen told him householders could use reasonable force to defend themselves from burglary. But Martin's actions in tackling the burglars were given support after the verdict by chocolate heir Sir Peter Cadbury, who told the BBC it was legitimate for a householder to use force against an intruder "if the householder himself feels threatened". He told BBC Two's Newsnight programme on Wednesday: "A lot of my friends sleep with loaded guns under their beds and I don't think they can be criticised for doing that, because if they ring the police, it will be 35 to 40 minutes before a car gets there. "I have had a loaded gun by my bed for the last 40 years, but in July last year, when a burglar took every piece of jewellery my wife had and my wallet and a lot else, he took the gun too." ---- This could have back-fired on Sir Cadbury (pun not intended) had he or his family had been in the room. Which is one danger in protecting yourself. Can't discuss the above (Tony Martin) case since don't know any of the details, though it would appear that the judge and jury felt excessive force was used in the act of "self-defence" - Hope I haven't opened another can of worms, but having weapons can often bring more harm to the victim. Rana |
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Subject: RE: I'm scared of Americans and Guns From: SINSULL Date: 20 Apr 00 - 02:24 PM Yeah Jon. I feel the same about people with fireworks. Lots of flash; lots of noise; hardly worth losing a finger over. But why fear only Americans with guns? I live in NYC and am far more afraid of Americans with cars. |
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Subject: RE: I'm scared of Americans and Guns From: Homeless Date: 20 Apr 00 - 02:45 PM I'm willing to throw a bit more fuel on the fire. I've owned, over my life, a shotgun, a rifle, and a handgun. I only used them for target shooting, don't see any compelling need for any of them, and no longer own any of them. I, personally, see a strong need to hunt my own meat - that supplied by the supermarkets is pumped full of antibiotics, hormones, and other nasties I don't care to have in my body. However, I don't believe I need a gun to hunt - a bow or crossbow does just fine, thank you. As stated above, the feeling of being invincible once you start carrying a gun is a dangerous thing. If someone were to pull a pistol on me, and I pull mine out too, we shoot each other, does that stop the violent crime? And would the cockiness that goes along with knowing you can "defend yourself" possibly prompt a confrontation that might not have otherwise occured? It seems that everyone wants to regulate guns in one way or another, but no one seems to hit what I think is the strongest point - a background check doesn't tell you if the purchaser knows how to safely handle a gun. The venetian blind is a case in point. The people who scare me are the ones who own a gun(s) but haven't the slightest bit of knowledge of them. I won't be around those people - I've had too many guns accidentally pointed in my direction. I spend a lot of time around the ER at our local hospital. I saw many more deaths from car accidents than I ever did from gunshots. To say that a gun is dangerous is ridiculous - a gun is only a tool, like cars, knives, computers, fire, sledgehammers. It is irresponsible people who are dangerous. And not just with guns, e.g. people who drive after they've had even 1 drink. You can harm (kill) people with any of the above named implements, but only cars are regulated in any way. If you want to quote statistics on murder and try to compare them with stats on guns, you should at least use the figures on murder by gunshot. |
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Subject: RE: I'm scared of Americans and Guns From: GUEST Date: 20 Apr 00 - 02:53 PM Homeless, "To say that a gun is dangerous is ridiculous" hmmmm If an implement specifically designed to kill mammals isn't dangerous, it must have been very badly designed... |
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Subject: RE: I'm scared of Americans and Guns From: Whistle Stop Date: 20 Apr 00 - 02:56 PM A background check also doesn't tell you much about a person's stability or rationality -- it really just tells you if they got caught doing something bad in the past, not if they are likely to do something bad in the future. I agree with people who say that irresponsible people are the danger, and that if there were no irresponsible, irrational or violent people, guns wouldn't be a problem. Unfortunately, the world is, and has always been, chock full of irresponsible, irrational and violent people -- the only difference is that now they have ready access to technology that allows them to present a much greater danger to the rest of us than they used to. If somebody knows how to get rid of all the irresponsible, irrational and violent people, I wish he would enlighten the rest of us. Myself, I don't think it can be done -- so I'd suggest that we go with the second-best option, and get rid of the guns. |
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Subject: RE: I'm scared of Americans and Guns From: Peg Date: 20 Apr 00 - 03:01 PM Guns Don't Kill People. Schoolchildren With Guns Kill People. Peg (who grew up eating plenty of venison, some killed with guns, some with bows and arrows, and who thinks all meat eaters should take responsiblity for acknowledging the sacrifice of the life of their dinner, and who almost had a heart attack the first time she ever killed an animal with a gun--age 12 or so--and who would never have one in the house, and who has the utmost respect for the way her father taught his children that guns are not toys and who punished any of us who even pointed a toy gun at anyone, even in fun, and who thinks people who point to the arcane, ridiculously out-of-date Second Amendment designed to arm civilians with muskets during wartime two hundred damn years ago as some proof that people have the right to buy guns and keep them in their homes for any stray child or psychopath or disgruntled husband or wife to pick up and blow someone away by accident or in an unthought-through moment...) |
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Subject: RE: I'm scared of Americans and Guns From: Homeless Date: 20 Apr 00 - 03:07 PM anonymous Guest - I maintain that a gun, in itself, is not dangerous. I've had a variety of guns, and in the years I had them not one ever killed any mammal of any type. I also own knives (including ones for the dinner table) and have killed animals with them. Q. Which one was more dangerous? A. Neither - it was my action that was the danger to the animal - the implement didn't matter in the end. A gun is no more dangerous than a knife, rope, car, axe, table saw, drill, sledgehammer, clenched fist... Should I go on? |
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Subject: RE: I'm scared of Americans and Guns From: Peg Date: 20 Apr 00 - 03:07 PM ...are idiots. |
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Subject: RE: I'm scared of Americans and Guns From: Lonesome EJ Date: 20 Apr 00 - 03:11 PM Gun ownership in America is not a black and white issue. Most Americans have little sympathy for either the NRA and their "only an ARMED man is truly free" bullshit on one side, and the gun-control extremists and their "All guns are EVIL" crap on the other. We know better. But progress needs to be made. Gunshow loopholes need to be closed. Gun crimes need to be vigorously prosecuted. Many types of weapons currently legal need to be banned. I don't buy the "Guns are necessary to fend off an oppressive government" argument, nor the "an armed citizenry is the greatest deterrent to crime" argument, but I know that many intelligent folks do believe these things. Progress in the control of guns here, and throughout the world, will be made when individuals sit down and hammer out difficult compromises with respect to each other's points of view in a rational manner. Statements such as "I am afraid of Americans and their guns" do not advance this cause. I believe in your earnestness, lizzie, but I do think your statement reveals an ignorance of the status quo re guns, and does not move it toward an improvement in the situation. LEJ |
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Subject: RE: I'm scared of Americans and Guns From: Peg Date: 20 Apr 00 - 03:14 PM Homeless; I respectfully diagree. Guns are a problem precisely because they are implements of mass destruction. Semi-automatic weapons shoot lots of bullets in short periods of time. I could kill a lot more people a lot faster with a gun than I could with a club, or a couple rolls of quarters in a sock. Good ole Dylan and Eric could not have blown away all those kids that quickly with knives, rocks or aarsenic...and a killer with anything other than a gun tends to be a lot easier to disarm than someone with, oh, a 2x4, or a hypo full or potassium... I myself would be likely to try and disarm a psycho with a knife, risking injury to myself, if it meant helping someone else. There is a chance I would be hurt or killed, but the risk is worth it. If the psycho has a gun, I could probably not even get close enough to him to do anything...he could kill me from a few feet or yards away. Knives are not projectiles; bullets are. I really do not see how you can argue that guns are on the same level of lethal effect as any other weapon. |
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Subject: RE: I'm scared of Americans and Guns From: Kim C Date: 20 Apr 00 - 03:15 PM I like to shoot, too. That doesn't meant I WANT to shoot anyone ---- but I would not hesitate in defending myself. The weapons are not the problem. Someone has to make a conscious choice to use a weapon; the weapon doesn't just jump into their hands of its own accord. What we have to do, as good people, is stand up against evil - against those circumstances which cause someone to believe they need to use a weapon against someone else. Are guns dangerous? Well, even a pair of scissors is dangerous in the wrong hands. We're going to ban scissors now? I think not. There are people in the United States who still have to hunt for their food. They live in places like Alaska, Montana, Wyoming... out in the middle of nowhere, where they can't just bop down to the market for a snack. I think you will find that in the US, the greatest pockets of crime are concentrated in very highly populated areas... New York City (although theirs has gone down lately), Washington DC (where handguns are illegal), Los Angeles... The crime rates in these concentrated areas cause the average for the whole US to go up. More people, more crime. Put two rats in a cage together and see if they don't get along okay; crowd a hundred of them in there and watch what happens. I visited Cody, Wyoming several years ago, and read about the recent crime wave in their local paper: one bank window broken out, and a backhoe stolen from a construction site. Big contrast to what happens in the big city. Like I said, if you don't want a gun, don't own one, but don't even think about telling me I can't. I do wholeheartedly agree, though, that guns need to be taken away from criminals. And when that happens, I'll think about melting mine down. But you don't see the President asking the Secret Service to disarm, do you? Regards ------------- Kim |
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Subject: RE: I'm scared of Americans and Guns From: Lonesome EJ Date: 20 Apr 00 - 03:32 PM Peg, you are right about the ability of guns, especially semi-auto and automatic weapons, to wreak wholesale slaughter in seconds. This is why the "if you outlaw guns, you must outlaw knives and cars" argument is such a specious one. By extension, grenade launchers don't kill people, people with grenade launchers kill people. If you out law grenade launchers, you must also outlaw cans of baked beans since you could kill someone by hitting him on the head with a can of Campbell's. Dumb. Let's instead recognize that a flintlock musket is not a 12 ga shotgun is not an AK 47, and make the restrictions that common sense would advise us to make. |
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Subject: RE: I'm scared of Americans and Guns From: Melodeon Date: 20 Apr 00 - 03:33 PM I am terrified of guns, I am also terrified of the people who carry them, whatever Nationality they happen to be. I would not however presume to criticise another culture, particularly as that other culture happens to be my host on this forum. However, over here in the UK it is difficult for some of us to understand the whole thing about the right to own a gun, probably because it is so alien to our own culture. Having read with interest all of the above threads I can only say that I am glad that I do not have to decide whether or not to own a gun ( hand guns are illegal over here because of the Dunblane tragedy) because I can understand the logic that if everyone else has got one then I had better have one too, is that not what brought us the proliferation of atomic weapons in the world. I can only hope that more Americans ( and others) decide to be responsible gun owners like the ones that have written here so that there are no more senseless killings of innocent people in schools, supermarkets, retirement homes etc. In the meantime look after yourselves. Viv |
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Subject: RE: I'm scared of Americans and Guns From: Homeless Date: 20 Apr 00 - 03:34 PM Peg - I can see we are talking about two different things. You say, "Semi-automatic weapons shoot lots of bullets in short periods of time," which I agree with. But, it only takes one bullet to kill someone in the same way that it only take one knife slash. I'll agree that if someone wants to do it they can kill more people faster with a gun than with a knife/axe/what-have-you. But being able to do more, faster, does not make it dangerous. No disrespect intended, but I don't see the logic in "Guns are a problem precisely because they are implements of mass destruction". Bulldozers, wrecking balls, jackhammers all fit that criteria but aren't a problem. And I thought the problem was usually one person being killed at a time, not simultaneous mass murder? Other than the military, the press I usually see about mass murders involves bombs, not guns. I don't agree that "a killer with anything other than a gun tends to be a lot easier to disarm." Again, it depends on the wielders knowledge of the weapon and state of mind of both attacker and defender. Outside of movies (where all fights are choreographed), do you have much firsthand experience witnessing disarming scenarios? |
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Subject: RE: I'm scared of Americans and Guns From: Jon Freeman Date: 20 Apr 00 - 03:36 PM One thing that bothers with guns is how quickly they can be used. I have seen talk here of psyhcopaths and even in the UK, we have wittnesed what destruction somebody going beserk with a gun can cause but what about normal stable people? I'm sure that most of us, if we are honest have had at least one point in our lives where we have been driven into an ablolute rage what the hell happens if there is a gun to hand at that point? The self defense bit also bothers me slightly. How many people have fired guns in unneccesary panic? I used to walk home at night along dark lonely roads and paths and I used to get nervous at times and considered carrying a knife for protection. I decided against it not for any legal reasons but because I was more scared of the thoughts of what I may do if somebody startled me on my way home than I was about the thoughts of being attacked. Another thought on defending things: I am not defending burglars but if a burglar suspects that owner of the place he is goining to rob has a gun, rather than preventing the crime, doesn't it simply increase the chances of him carrying a gun to defend himself? Jon |
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Subject: RE: I'm scared of Americans and Guns From: Homeless Date: 20 Apr 00 - 03:38 PM After re-reading my last post, I can see that I'm subconciously trying to coerce someone to change their stance on an issue. Since that is against my values, I will bow out of this thread. I do hope however that I've given people on both sides some food for thought. |
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Subject: RE: I'm scared of Americans and Guns From: Richard Bridge Date: 20 Apr 00 - 03:48 PM A little honesty on both sides might go a long way. Frankly it is not sensible to point to the need to hunt for food as a justification for possession of firearms. Mankind evolved out of the "hunter-gatherer" stage many centuries ago. But equally the "ban guns and gun-related crime will stop" argument is not on the level. It is trite that one man's freedom may impinge on another's. THe central issue here is the legitimacy of the resort to force - whether with a gun, or another weapon, or even the inherent power of a majority to oppress a minority in a democracy. I suggest that the measure to apply is the risk of wrong you create. Take away firearms and you leave the physically strong (or the mob-handed) as empowered, or almost as empowered, as the armed used to be. But how much ahve you harmed the disempowered? Think before you kneejerk. Think about why the kids at Columbine might have felt oppressed. THink about the fact that the effectiv e power rstructure there left them hopeless. THink about what would have happened to TOny Martin if he tried to stop 3 burglars with 114 (yes114) convictions between them without a gun.
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Subject: RE: I'm scared of Americans and Guns From: Peg Date: 20 Apr 00 - 04:10 PM Homeless; you can't coerce someone if your arguments make no sense. you wrote: "I'll agree that if someone wants to do it they can kill more people faster with a gun than with a knife/axe/what-have-you. But being able to do more, faster, does not make it dangerous." huh??? It doesn't??? since when? are you high? You also wrote: "No disrespect intended, but I don't see the logic in "Guns are a problem precisely because they are implements of mass destruction". Bulldozers, wrecking balls, jackhammers all fit that criteria but aren't a problem." this is just plain nonsense. Those items are not intended to be used as WEAPONS! Guns are. You also wrote: "And I thought the problem was usually one person being killed at a time, not simultaneous mass murder?" who said this? and who says mass murder is not a problem? on this anniversary of the worst school shooting in history, that statement is just plain disrespectful. what about Paducah, Kentucky? Springfield, Oregon? Pearl, Mississippi? mass murder is the problem, that is the point most people in this thread are trying to make. You seem to be playing at being too dense to pick up on this, I am not sure why.
You also wrote: "Other than the military, the press I usually see about mass murders involves bombs, not guns." |
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Subject: RE: I'm scared of Americans and Guns From: GUEST,Cara Date: 20 Apr 00 - 05:13 PM Hhmmm. Guns outlawed after one little massacre. Those crazy Brits.
To respond to Kim, I submit this article from Also, I live in Washington, DC, and while it is true that we have gun violence problems here, they have sharply declined over the last decade or so, and are largely a function of the drug trade (America's War on Drugs being an entirely separate unsavory issue). And, while it is true that there is a ban on handguns in the district, they are very easy to procure in nearby Virginia, which has very lax handgun controls, and has therefore been flooded with weapons, as have so many loosely controlled markets, especially those near a major urban area. This is one of the main issues cited in the spate of recent suits against the gun industry brought by many U.S. cities. I read a travel article not too long ago about British Columbia. The American author described going into a cafe and having a dishevelled, disturbed person who was fidgety and muttering to himself sit down close by. He said it made him nervous, and he was looking to move, when he remembered that he was in Canada and tat therefore the person in question was pretty unlikely to be armed. The realization shocked him. I think a lot of Americans don't realize that that sort of freedom from fear is something we are all missing out on as a result of our insane gun laws. |
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Subject: RE: I'm scared of Americans and Guns From: GUEST,cara Date: 20 Apr 00 - 05:15 PM My html tag for the Salon article ceased to exist, mysteriously...here it is...http://www.salon.com/politics2000/feature/2000/04/03/nra/index.html |
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Subject: RE: I'm scared of Americans and Guns From: GUEST,Frank Hamilton Date: 20 Apr 00 - 05:23 PM Not all Americans like guns or own them. Not all Americans defend the use of them under any circumstances. Americans are deeply divided on this issue. I feel that guns are unnecessary in the hands of most people. Because they are owned, they get stolen by criminals who have learned how to use them for the greatest harm. I believe in gun control because I don't feel that those who believe that they use them properly are capable of doing so. This has been proven time and again by the deaths created by accidents, kids and/or criminals that get ahold of them. The NRA is unwilling to police itself. I think that Lizzie's fear is not unfounded but I would like to reassure her that this American believes in gun control no matter how much it's detractors attempt to dissuade through the politicians whose palms are greased with NRA money. Frank |