Subject: Thou Bonnie Wood of Craigielee From: GUEST,Mark Date: 09 May 00 - 02:28 AM Does anyone have the tune (sheet music, Midi, audio) to "Thou Bonnie Wood of Craigielee (Craigeelea or Craigeelee)?
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Subject: RE: Tune Req: Thou Bonnie Wood of Craigielee From: GUEST,Matilda Date: 09 May 00 - 02:38 AM Its the tune that Waltzing Matilda is based upon. Apparently there are a few major differences in melody. Also, the Bold Fusilier is a song based on Waltzing Matilda. I wonder what all three would sound like (put together).
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Subject: RE: Tune Req: Thou Bonnie Wood of Craigielee From: GUEST,The Bold Date: 09 May 00 - 02:43 AM Apparently Craigielee is a March and was written in Scotland by James Barr in 1805.
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Subject: RE: Tune Req: Thou Bonnie Wood of Craigielee From: Bob Bolton Date: 09 May 00 - 05:47 AM G'day Mark, Craigilee is a fairly long piece and it was a section of that tune that ended up (misremembered and / or bent to a set of words) as the Christina McPherson 1895 version of Waltzing Matilda. This tune was severely simplified and 'flattened out' to become the Marie Cowan arrangement of 1905 - the well known version. I have the relevant portion of Craigilee, Then quick march Australian arrangement that Christina heard at Warrnambool Races in 1893, Christina's manuscript copy and Marie Cowan's version on a single musicTime file I created to compare and study. I could send you (if you were a member, and thus had a private page ... or to a private e-mail) a black & white GIF of the music and / or a MIDI file of the same. I believe I also have a full transcription of Barr's Craigilee in MusicTime as well, so I can also image that or send a MIDI - if I have an address that can accept an attachment. I am just heading out to an editorial conference for the Bush Music Club's magazime Mulga Wire, but I will check when I get back - and put a tracer on this thread. Regards, Bob Bolton |
Subject: RE: Tune Req: Thou Bonnie Wood of Craigielee From: Barbara Date: 09 May 00 - 07:52 AM Bob, all, I think that has been posted hear in the past, and should still be in the forum, somewhere. Let me look. Aha! Here is a blue clicky thing to take you to a previous thread where the tune is posted in Alan of Australia's program and also ABC. The words are there as well. Blessings, Barbara And if you do get the tune up, tell me whether it starts with the verse or the chorus. Thanks. |
Subject: RE: Tune Req: Thou Bonnie Wood of Craigielee From: Alan of Australia Date: 09 May 00 - 08:39 AM G'day, I posted the tune some time ago on the Mudcat MIDI site.
Cheers, |
Subject: RE: Tune Req: Thou Bonnie Wood of Craigielee From: Abby Sale Date: 09 May 00 - 06:35 PM OK. But how do you get "Craigielea" to scan to "The Gay Fusilier?" Is it's tune known? |
Subject: RE: Tune Req: Thou Bonnie Wood of Craigielee From: GUEST,Mark Date: 09 May 00 - 08:21 PM Hi to Abby and Bob and Alan and Barbara, Thanks for the info. I intend to put Craigielea, Waltzing Matilda, and the Bold Fusilier together in a 5.4 rhythm. It will be difficult but worth the effort (a combination of Australian, "Celtic", and orginal arrangement. This may sound weird and break some rules but I have done similar things with Lachlan Tigers and The Streets of Forbes (SOF in 7.4). And Bob. . . I am Alison Cone's Partner (Tursachan). Will you be at St Albans? If so maybe we should discuss my above project/s. See you there?
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Subject: RE: Tune Req: Thou Bonnie Wood of Craigielee From: GUEST,Mark Date: 09 May 00 - 08:26 PM Hi Allan, I tried your midi file and got. . . 404 Not Found The requested URL was not found on this server: /alanofoz/craigiel.mid (C:\webserver\mudcat\htdocs\alanofoz\craigiel.mid) Please return to the referring document and note the hypertext link that led you here. |
Subject: RE: Tune Req: Thou Bonnie Wood of Craigielee From: Bob Bolton Date: 09 May 00 - 11:44 PM G'day Mark, I will try to remember to take the music (both files)and a disc of the MIDI files to Snalbans 2000 - I presume you will at least "Guest" appear at the scheduled gathering on Aussie MudCatters? I still uncertain as to whether I will be camping or only driving up for one day. Regards, Bob Bolton |
Subject: RE: Tune Req: Thou Bonnie Wood of Craigielee From: GUEST,Mark and guests Date: 10 May 00 - 12:08 AM Hi Bob and Aussie Mudcats Yes to Snalbans meeting. . . I recall reading the thread on meetings days and times for mudcatozies. I will track that thread down and see ya there (time and gigs permitting of course. We too may only be there for one day. I have just managed to successfuylly download some of Alans text2Midi files (or is that upload?). and they are most helpful. Thanks again. Oh. We will not have "Boldy Waltzing Craigieleas Matilda Fusilier" worked up for the weekend. We will perform it at Kiama (South Coast NSW Australia)- Thats Vocals, Cello, Guitar, didge and radical percussion of course. Anyway .. .
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Subject: RE: Tune Req: Thou Bonnie Wood of Craigielee From: Alan of Australia Date: 10 May 00 - 09:57 AM G'day Mark, Try again to download the MIDI - there was a typo in the html.
Cheers, |
Subject: RE: Tune Req: Thou Bonnie Wood of Craigielee From: Bob Bolton Date: 10 May 00 - 07:12 PM G'day again Mark, Putting Craigilea and Waltzing Matilda (or Craigilea and the McPherson and Cowan versions of Waltzing Matilda) together (and of course there is the totally unrelated 'Queensland' or 'Buderim', version as well) could produce and interesting series of subtle changes. This is why I put together the file (of which I will give you a MIDI and the sheet music) with Barr's 1805 original, Thomas Bulch's 1893 'quick march' arrangement, Christina McPherson's manuscript version of what she played for 'Banjo' Paterson and Marie Cowan's 1905 arrangement, done for Inglis Tea Company. As you hear each one in order, you see how the tune changed to the familiar modern version. The Bold Fusilier is, I fear, just a Furphy. Nobody mentions it until around WWII, 2 whole generations after Waltzing Matilda was widely published. The chance that an obvious ancestor to such a popular song went unnoticed for that period, when weighed against the fact that it was remembered by families from soldier's tales of past wars - with the well known Australian propensity for parody - makes it extremely likely to be a war-time parody (WWI) by Aussie soldiers to stir the Poms ... or, just possibly, vice versa. Your 5/4 (and 7/4) endeavours sound interesting (with only a hint of the old Chinese curse about "living in interesting times"). I know someone else who has done Tango arrangements of Streets of Forbes and The Ballad of 1891! Regard(les)s, Bob Bolton I am Alison Cone's Partner (Tursachan). |
Subject: RE: Tune Req: Thou Bonnie Wood of Craigielee From: Bob Bolton Date: 11 May 00 - 05:57 AM G'day again Mark, OOPS! I left a bit of your posting undeleted when I was working through answering points. Incidentally, I used a picture of you and Alison Cone in DEcember issue of Mulga Wire - you looking very hard-worked behind a mountain of drums and a didgeridu while Alison sings happily to a microphone. If you didn't see it, I may have it at Snalbans 2000. I also meant to caution that, if the Craigielea/Waltzing Matilda MIDI on Alan's site is from Dennis O'Keefe's recordings, the interpretation is abit suspect. Christina's manuscript copy has a number of flaws, mostly uneven bar lengths and I had David Johnson do a fairly careful analysis from two different manuscripts for the ABC's 1988 program on Waltzing Matilda. Denis's version (which may not have the benifit of all these resources) doesn't work quite as well and has some dubious bars. Regards, Bob Bolton |
Subject: Dating "Fusilier" Wood of Craigielee From: Abby Sale Date: 11 May 00 - 02:44 PM I would not personally suggest such a thing. So I quote: In addition, the song [ie, "Fusilier] is known in variant forms in oral tradition (Australians seem reluctant to sing these variants, but John Greenway recorded one for Folkways. John Meredith, who collected a version, reports that his informants learned it in the 1880s.). This, of course, has nothing to do with Coe's good work in "extending" the song; just the known 1st verse & chorus. |
Subject: RE: Tune Req: Thou Bonnie Wood of Craigielee From: Bob Bolton Date: 12 May 00 - 12:44 AM G'day Abby, From what do you quote? I have read many of the books arguing about the origins of Waltzing Matilda and none of the porimary texts that I have read has made anywhere as bald a statement as that. Without checking the Meredith reference, I am fairly sure that referred to the general existance of some military ancestor to Waltzing Matilda and this is a definite possibilty, since the usage of Matilda has a whole family of meanings around bedrolls, campaign substitutes, tool rolls &c - particularly in the German tradition. The possibility that Paterson had reworked some traditional material cannot be discounted (I would love to find the postulated German journeyman's song Auf der Walz mit Mathildhe) but the occasion of Waltzing Matilda's marriage to a version of some of the tune to Craigielea has been well documented in recent years. I have had a number of discussions with John Meredith about the pre-history of Waltzing Matilda and John has some strong views, but I don't think any of his statements accurately fits your quote. Regards, Bob Bolton
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Subject: RE: Tune Req: Thou Bonnie Wood of Craigielee From: Alan of Australia Date: 12 May 00 - 12:22 PM G'day Bob, If you follow the blue clicky provided by Barbara above you'll find my comments about Dennis O'Keefe's interpretation of Christina McPherson's tune. I provided one of my own with (educated?) guesswork as far as timing is concerned, but at least the notes aren't changed as they are in D O'K's version. The Craigielea tune on my site is from "Two Hundred and Twenty Popular Scottish Songs". The copy I have was brought to Australia by my great grandfather in 1893, 2 years before the birth of Waltzing Matilda. You'll also find some comments about the Fusilier, but you probably own the same source as I do.
Cheers, |
Subject: RE: Tune Req: Thou Bonnie Wood of Craigielee From: Abby Sale Date: 12 May 00 - 01:53 PM Bob, I wasn't referring to the origins of "Waltzing Matilda" or whether Andrew Paterson actually wrote it. Can we, after all, credit any statements from someone who spent most of his life at racetracks? No, no, I would never slander a national hero! Even one named after a horse. The quote referred to the text & tune origins of "Fusilier." You wrote: "Nobody mentions it until around WWII, 2 whole generations after Waltzing Matilda was widely published." Ie, that it is a counterfeit. I agree there must be something amiss. The given sequesnce in texts GF --> Craiglea -- > WM but of tunes of C --> WM --> GF is silly. Further, the verse structure for all versions I've seen of GF are identical to WM. Impossible! I would suggest that, being a fragment, the song was never interesting and couldn't be sung until Coe wrote some more verses. But if GF text and tune came first as the quote suggests then the other Craiglea tunes are offshoots, not progressing to WM. Patterson just forgot wher he got the tune. Or possibly never knew where the actual author got it. I'd like to find an old tune for GF. |
Subject: RE: Tune Req: Thou Bonnie Wood of Craigielee From: Bob Bolton Date: 12 May 00 - 07:26 PM G'day Abby, The circimstances of Paterson's providing a set of words to Christina McPherson's remembered version of Craigielea are well documented. The important questions revolve around where and how 'Banjo' came up with the words. (Lately, Dennis O'Keefe has also asked about his motives ... in the light of the subsequent breakup of his long standing engagement and the McPherson girls later reminiscence of Mr Paterson as "A bit of a cad".) It may well be that 'Banjo' had been working up a snatch of rhyme 'collected' along the way ... and he could even have recognised a relationship between what Christina played on the borrowed autoharp (her usual instrument was piano) and some tune attached to the putative collected fragment. This all allows for earlier forms and I can certainly believe they lie behind the words of Waltzing Matilda. From some other references to the reluctance of older informants to elaborate on memories of older forms - and the military connotations of "Matilda", particularly in the German context - I suspect that Matilda's musical ancestors may have been a soncy lot; camp followers to a mob of rowdy troops. Regards, Bob Bolton (who is now off to St Albans Festival) |
Subject: RE: Tune Req: Thou Bonnie Wood of Craigielee From: Abby Sale Date: 12 May 00 - 08:45 PM Alan, I'm not finding your page, just an "Alan's Home page" that leads to a club, not songs, Bob, I see I didn't answer your question of where I was quoting. Well, I'll post the whole thing. Enjoy the festival in the meantime. Quoting in full from The Traditional Ballad Index at the "Walting Matilda" reference. Bob Waltz is usually a bit more conservative than this selection indicates but there's some pretty good evidence. NOTES: Officially credited to A. B. "Banjo" Paterson (1864-1941), who claims to have written it in 1894, but this is dubious. For one thing, he told several different stories of its origin. Also, the lyric form is derived directly from "The Bold Fusilier," dated by its reference to Marlborough to the War of the Spanish Succession (1701-1714): ============================ This reference to Meredith is valid. Meredith may be even stronger than Waltz. Meredith, Vol 1, p73: "...most people realize that 'Waltzing Matilda' is simply a parody on 'The Bold Fusilier', which was widely sung in this country during the nineteenth century....'Craigielea' lacks even a superficial resemblence to 'Waltzing Matilda' as we know it today..." |
Subject: RE: Tune Req: Thou Bonnie Wood of Craigielee From: Alan of Australia Date: 13 May 00 - 12:19 PM Abby, If you click on the blue clicky provided by Barbara earlier in this thread you'll find it. Better still click here .
Cheers, |
Subject: RE: Tune Req: Thou Bonnie Wood of Craigielee From: Alan of Australia Date: 13 May 00 - 01:14 PM G'day again Abby, Some of the statements in your reference bear comment:- "It has also been observed that Paterson never wrote anything else of any quality" Most Australians would disagree with this, e.g. "Clancy of the Overflow", "The Man From Snowy River". "and he knew it, because he several times made gibes at Henry Lawson" Lawson & Paterson carried on a friendly rivalry for many years & it must be observed that it did their circulation no harm. "He allegedly wrote the story based on an event which took place near his girlfriend's home (though the event has not been confirmed historically)" The state archives show that Samuel "Frenchy" Hoffmeister DID commit suicide by a billabong just 14 weeks before Paterson wrote the ballad. (Research by Richard Magoffin). "and a local girl (Marie Cowan) gave him this tune" What evidence is there that Marie Cowan was local? Note that she only claimed to have arranged the tune. "The tune has also been called "Thou Bonnie Woods of Craigie Lee" (the title which Paterson originally put to the tune), sometimes credited to James Barr" I have a songbook brought to Australia in 1893 which has words and tune for "Thou Bonnie Wood of Craigielea", Words by Tannahill, Melody by James Barr. My copy was printed by 1890. "but the air usually used for "Craigielea" is emphatically not "The Bold Fusilier" or "Walting Matilda" This tune DOES bear a resemblance to the tune in Christina McPherson's manuscript. She wrote it out twice (that we know of) and these copies were only discovered in fairly recent times.
Here's what I wote in the earlier thread (1998) concerning the fusilier:- There's a song called The Bold Fusilier which uses the Cowan version of the Matilda tune. It has been suggested that Paterson simply rewrote this song. Here is what Richard Magoffin says about it:- There is an English song which pretends to come from the time of the Duke of Marlborough, "The Bold (or Gay) Fusilier", but it is really a parody of "Waltzing Matilda" from the Boer war, which was attended by the fusiliers, by Banjo Paterson, and many other Australians who sang our song. (Also, although irrelevant here, by Marlborough's descendant Sir Winston Churchill - A of A). There is no record anywhere of the existence of this song prior to 1900 by way of any manuscript. The British Museum wrote in 1968 that they had never found any trace of the song. The British Folk Song and Dance Society had received many requests but, likewise, found no record. The Mayor of Rochester and the editor of the Fusilier's magazine were challenged some years ago to present pre-Matilda evidence for their song. They were not able to do so, while insisting that hearsay evidence in England was sufficient. English folklore authority, Vaughan Williams, considered that the earlier existence of the song was very doubtful because its language was not appropriate to the early eighteenth century period it pretended to represent.
There are two versions of this in the DT:-
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Subject: RE: Tune Req: Thou Bonnie Wood of Craigielee From: Bob Bolton Date: 16 May 00 - 12:55 AM G'day Abby Sale, I did enjoy St Albans. Now I'm back I see that Alan has fairly comprehensively answered the errors in your quoted source. I am not familiar with Bob Waltz and he may be quite secure on his own turf, but this entry contains some frightening misquotes and erroneous assumptions presented as fact. Possibly these errors are in Waltz's sources, but they don't correspond with any of the facts coming from the research. The place at which Christina's version of Craigielea met Paterson and his poem was the Queensland property of her brother, where she was holidaying from Victoria. Various events in that area could be interpreted as being reflected in the poem - which IS word for word with that written under Christina's manuscript music. It was Marie Cowan's re-arrangement of 10 years later that simplified the words to work as a promotion for Inglis Bros "Billy Tea". Marie Cowan never claimed to have written her version of the tune, just "arranged" it. Her husband claimed it as her composition after her death ... and thus got continued royalties. Paterson's handling of the poem, before it became popular during the First World War, suggests some odd distaste for the poem (or circumstances around its composition). It was sold with a bundle of minor poems for 3 pounds (about US$10 - 12 at that time) and that was how Inglis acquired it. Denis O'Keefe suggests some hanky panky with Christina led to Patersons fiance breaking the engagement ... and impressing the lady with a poem, allegedly on the spur of the moment, may have part of this episode. Interestingly, my father worked (in Scouting) with a former legal colleague of Paterson's. Dad reckons this bloke asked Paterson about the writing of Waltzing Matilda and 'Banjo' said he did not remember doing so ... but the royalties were very pleasant!. On the side, I would note that John Meredith, raised as a good country boy, has a very strict belief in the honour and veracity of those old performers who gave him songs and music. In this, he is sometimes at variance with more sceptical city slicker folklorists. John's direct approach and deep respect for his sources have driven him to collect a vast body of unique material, at his own expense, in his own time and totally unsupported by any Government body. Only cynics like me question such sources. Regards, Bob Bolton |
Subject: RE: Tune Req: Thou Bonnie Wood of Craigielee From: Percustard Date: 25 Jun 02 - 02:48 AM Thanks to all who provided the info re: my request at the start of this thread. Tursacan, my band, after discarding the "Marlborough Man and his fusiliers" got onto Craigielee, found the original music manuscript for Waltzing Matilda, used the 5.4 bar in it as an excuse to do the whole song in 5.4 and sequed Craigielee into Waltzing Matilda (original "Macpherson" tune). It works nicely and has earned us a few favourable responses. Thanks all. |
Subject: RE: Tune Req: Thou Bonnie Wood of Craigielee From: GUEST,clivesmith@route56.co.uk Date: 30 May 06 - 12:10 PM Please can anyone tell me all the verses of 'A bold fusilier went marching down through Rochester bound for the wars in the Low Countree'? The first verse is given on this website. At a well-beered Morris Dancing festival this week=end I heard about 5 verses. The rich and the tradesmen wouldnt join, and the young men took the Queen's shilling. I've never heard it before. If it were contemporary then it would be between 1702 (when Marlborough became Captain-General of the English armed forces and took Venlo and Liege), and 1709 by which time he had taken most of North Europe. |
Subject: RE: Tune Req: Thou Bonnie Wood of Craigielee From: Snuffy Date: 30 May 06 - 07:22 PM Clive The Bold Fusilier IS contemporary, but to our times not to those of Marlborough: the author is alive and well and still performing on the folk scene. If you read the whole of this thread, (especially the message from Alan of Australia dated 13 May 00 - 01:14 PM), you will find fuller details of the history of the song. I can't get his links to the lyrics to work, but try this MARCHING THROUGH ROCHESTER (Pete Coe |
Subject: RE: Tune Req: Thou Bonnie Wood of Craigielee From: GUEST,Paul Kirsmer Date: 31 Jan 08 - 04:21 PM Help There is a CD with THE GAY FUSILIER / MARCHING THROUGH ROCHESTER / COME BE A SOLDIER FOR MARLBORO AND ME on it. Where can I purchase a copy? Many thanks |
Subject: RE: Tune Req: Thou Bonnie Wood of Craigielee From: GUEST,Andrew Partington Date: 10 Apr 09 - 11:12 PM Try this thread http://www.waltzingmatilda.com.au/page-content/Craigielea%20downloads.html or down the page on this one http://www.waltzingmatilda.com.au/Craigielea.html Andrew Partington |
Subject: RE: Tune Req: Thou Bonnie Wood of Craigielee From: GUEST,Andrew Partington Date: 10 Apr 09 - 11:15 PM (I meant 'try this link') Link to Craigielea Music Download |
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