Do you play in a Police State?

Subject: Do you play in a Police State?
From: InOBU
Date: 25 Jul 00 - 02:35 PM

Good idea Kev!
Well, when a country puts more people in jail than any other in history (again proportionally) and the police feel inpowered to call for boycotts of artists from Ice Tea to Bruce Springstien, and there is a bloody blue uniform on every block in politcally left neighborhoods like the east village, while the police avoid really hard case neighborhoods in New York and look the other way as women are publicly sexually assaulted, but break up non-violent political marches, and we have a shoot to kill policy that the RUC would salivate over... well... what else would you call it. Yup, I play music in a police state.
Singing the truth to power
>;-0
Larry

Subject: RE: Do you play in a Police State?
From: Thomas the Rhymer
Date: 25 Jul 00 - 02:39 PM

Time to pull out "Duncan and Brady"

Subject: RE: Do you play in a Police State?
From: katlaughing
Date: 25 Jul 00 - 03:14 PM

Yep, Larry, and I wanted to throw up listening, on NPR, to yet another reasoning on why we should spend millions on the "Drug War" in Columbia. If anyone has ever wondered why it doesn't seem to be working, I would highly recommend the book "Deep Cover", written by Michael Levine, 1990. Levine was a DEA group supervisor and their top international undercover agent.

Meanwhile, last night I found out that Wyoming's only prisoner of Asian descent, whom most do not think is guilty of a crime he was convicted of in 1988, is locked down in solitary for 60 days because he raised a ruckus, with sworn statements from witnesses, not all convicts, about a female guard who frisked him, made a comment as she passed over his genitals about (paraphrased)where's the beef? How else did you people populate so many millions? Then there are the disproportionate amount of police beatings among the very small minority population here, as well as the do-nothing attutude of the cops when there is a crime against people of colour.

There is still such ignorance about race here. It's a tough row to how, trying to talk with people and educate.

Subject: RE: Do you play in a Police State?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 25 Jul 00 - 03:52 PM

The traditional definition of a Police State, I suppose would be along the lines that "It is a Police State if the people in power are holding down an unwilling population, as a way of holding on to that power, and they use a police force as their tools to do it, giving the people in it unlimited licence to do whatever they think is necessary towards that end.

Well, that's not the situation in America, as I understand it. Because it seems pretty clear that most people do back up the actions of the police. And the same goes for other Western countries.

But that's not the end of the argument - because in fact you could have said the same in Nazi Germany.And that isn't to equate the two- the reason I bring in the German case is because that is the most extreme example of a repressive regime which had popular support .

So it isn't good enough to say that "people want it, so it's just democracy". And in fact the people who drew up the American Constitution were very careful to ensure that just because a majority of people wanted something, that didn't mean that they could have it, if it involved trampling on other people. (At least, that was how it was supposed to work.)

So that definition in the first paragraph should be amended to take into account that "the people in power" may in a sense be a majority of the people in a country.

And it becomes: "It is a Police State if the people who represent the majority of the population are holding down a minority in that population, as a way of ensuring the continued approval of the majority, and they use a police force as their tools do do it, giving the people in it unlimited licence to do whatever they think is necessary towards that end."

Whether the USA fits that definition is something only Americans can determine. So far as the country I'm living in is concerned, there are ominous signs of movement in that direction, with a government preoccupied in appeasing tabloid hysteria and looking for simplistic "tough" solutions to all kinds of problems - problems that have been thrown up a whirlwind of change in how we live, and how we look after each other, and how we put limits on our own behaviour and those of other people.

Subject: RE: Do you play in a Police State?
From: wysiwyg
Date: 25 Jul 00 - 04:16 PM

Well....

Then I guess... we who can sing... from a place of... freedom within us... are... Radio Free Human.

~S~

Subject: RE: Do you play in a Police State?
From: Thomas the Rhymer
Date: 25 Jul 00 - 04:20 PM

The more misinformed the people of a democracy are, when they are beholden to a minority of power brokers for their sustenance/survival/jobs,...the more fascist does that country become. Opinions become government (in our case corporate) property, induced to keep people apart, competitive, and deadly fearful of social alienation... esp. "being different". This condition exists... and is maintained through real, OR PERCIEVED, scarcity.

So it seems to me anyway...

ttr

Subject: RE: Do you play in a Police State?
From: Mbo
Date: 25 Jul 00 - 04:20 PM

Where's John Agar when you need him?

Subject: RE: Do you play in a Police State?
From: InOBU
Date: 25 Jul 00 - 05:11 PM

Hi Katlaughing:
I was intervied by Levine, he gave me an autographed copy of his book Big White Lie. Nice fellow, looks like a dark complected version of Sean Conery.
Kev's definintion is as on target as you can get, however in order to define a people's will, one has to take into account several subjective evaluations, such as freedom of information and free politic. In light of the repression of though in US schools, and the outright history of political repression from the time of the Palmer raids until 99% of political information was put in the heads of Americans by a capitolist owned and controled TV industry, it is hard to say that it is an informed concent. When you look at the number of Americans who don't vote, you realise there is a sence of hoplessness about change here, even though most Americans don't have the political education to understand why their government does not represent them. As Noam Chompsky pointed out, most Americans know more about sports then they do about their government. (and are proud of it to boot!!!)
All the best
Larry
PS Kat... Mike is a BIG guy! I'm not short, and I felt like I was tiny next to him.

Subject: RE: Do you play in a Police State?
From: katlaughing
Date: 25 Jul 00 - 05:48 PM

Wow, Larry, that is really interesting...did he interview for White Lies? Now I will have to go get it and read it.Glad to hear he is so big, considering all of the extreme danger he's been in!

Another important book, IMO, is "Lies My Teacher Told Me" which you can find all kinds of information about by clicking here. He's even got a pop quiz which is VERY interesting, takes only a few moments.

Another new one, which you especially may be interested in Larry, is "Rethinking Columbus: The Next 500 Years", edited by Bill Bigelow and Bob Peterson, and published by Rethinking Schools in Milwaukee, WI. I have an expanded 2nd edition from 1998. Anyone who has any interest in or hope for the children of our country should find it well worth the $8. Their website is www.rethinkingschools.org.

Sorry, I know that is a bit of thread creep, but I hope it may help with balance, so we don't get too full of despair, as I was feeling last night.

Thanks,

kat

Subject: RE: Do you play in a Police State?
From: InOBU
Date: 25 Jul 00 - 06:08 PM

Hi Kat:
No he interviewed me after he inadvertantly made a racist remark about Roma (Gypsies). He had a rather racist guest, an author, and offered me an opportunity to debate his guest. His guest turned tail and ran, so I had an hour to my point of view.

Subject: RE: Do you play in a Police State?
From: catspaw49
Date: 25 Jul 00 - 06:08 PM

I need to find one that one book kat.

AND NOW LARRY.......So its a Police State...OK......It was a Police State 20 years back; 30 years ago, forty, fifty.............Whatcha' gonna' do? Gotta' plan?

Spaw

Subject: RE: Do you play in a Police State?
From: leprechaun
Date: 25 Jul 00 - 06:25 PM

So are we saying that a police state is a bad thing? How boring it would be for folk music if we weren't all so horribly oppressed. Some of the less enlightened may feel a slight sense of loss after the revolution happens, and we get rid of all this evil, corporate sponsored technology. President Ted Kazcinsky will make sure there aren't any computers, so you'll have to post threads on recycled hemp paper, and people will have to deliver them from place to place on foot, because it will be against the law to use an internal combustion engine. No horses or pack mules either, because we certainly wouldn't want to be exploiting animals.

Of course the upside to the new world order will be no police brutality because there will be no police. (I have it on good authority that the revolution won't be over until "the last police officer is hung by the entrails of the last yuppie") There won't be a need for laws because all the people will live in harmony. By Jiminy, just imagine a world so in tune with the great soul of the universe there will be no need to protest, because everybody will agree on everything and all the world's resources will be shared equally among all of mother earth's creatures. (Imagine no possessions...)

But folk music will suck.

Subject: RE: Do you play in a Police State?
From: Mbo
Date: 25 Jul 00 - 06:32 PM

Leprechaun--I love it!

--Matt (singing a sad-sack rendition of Revolution 1)

Subject: RE: Do you play in a Police State?
From: Thomas the Rhymer
Date: 25 Jul 00 - 06:44 PM

I'd say ya make the appocallypse sound good. Maybe the hopeful people are fooling themselves,... but I think the cynics are the real fools. Hopeless disenchantment isn't nutritious; I would call it junk food for the ego. It's just that the cynics are so often right...

Subject: RE: Do you play in a Police State?
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 25 Jul 00 - 06:45 PM

In a police state, basic freedoms are suppressed. Freedom of the press, freedom of speech are the enemies of the police state. In America, there is no state-imposed restrictions on these freedoms that I'm aware of.

In a police state, arrest and imprisonment take place against political enemies of the state due to their political loyalties. Such arrest and imprisonment takes place without necessary evidence, a fair trial, or any other procedure that could be called due process of law. Our constitution stands in open opposition to this kind of police repression, and I believe it rarely takes place. 99 percent of prisoners in the US are there not because they are politically repressed, but because they have committed crimes against their fellow citizens.

To call the US a Police State is merely inflammatory rhetoric that libels America, while trivializing the abject terror and repression of REAL police states, whose citizens must take their lives in their hands to speak out in opposition to them.

Subject: RE: Do you play in a Police State?
From: SeanM
Date: 25 Jul 00 - 07:03 PM

How 'bout we just call it a popularity based representative pseudo-democratic republic? Sums up most of the salient details, I'd hope.

M

Subject: RE: Do you play in a Police State?
From: kendall
Date: 25 Jul 00 - 07:22 PM

Seems to me that the main reason our jails are full is not the lack of freedom, but rather the lack of responsibility. Too many people thinking they can do whatever they choose. Does either Great Brittain or Canada have a "Miranda Warning?"

Subject: RE: Do you play in a Police State?
From: Brendy
Date: 25 Jul 00 - 07:38 PM

You don't have the right to silence in England.

B.

Subject: RE: Do you play in a Police State?
From: Thomas the Rhymer
Date: 25 Jul 00 - 07:40 PM

Nonsense EJ I decry, listen up, I'll tell you why: The states are nicer this is true, but repression guides the things we do.

Death squads do not roam the streets, But gangs and violence; a real treat! We stroll into the voting booth, to choose between the ones and twos

creativity is on the wane, but 'ss' survailence still remains; while victimless crimes do crowd our jails, an arbitrary leagal quails

LAW and ORDER! step this way! calls the warden More EVERYDAY! Freedom's poor across this land, eat sadness for a place to stand

Look to our founders and hear them say, what we fought for's gone astray... The worst that Brittish King could do us, looks kind compared to corporate screw ups

and remember capital's ploy, The more we have, the less they enjoy! Think a moment of third world plight, where there is a noble knight?

we're working more and more, for less, but where are craftsmen? take a guess; Police are polite, but glad its true; we're all too busy to see freedom through

Comparisons to nazi hell, or third world nation's hungering yell, Are no excuse for lock down here, imagining we're free from fear.

Police states don't speak free they say, we're the freest of the world today... but appetites have cuffed us well, as the world goes hungry, off to hell.

ttr

Subject: RE: Do you play in a Police State?
From: Sorcha
Date: 25 Jul 00 - 08:15 PM

I'm going to try, here. I am not sure if what I say will be coherent or understood, but I am going to try.
Try being married to a police officer. Being prejudiced, I think I am married to a pretty good one. The feed-back I get from the community--the kid's friends, my friends, and even sometimes people I don't know--is that my Mr. is the best cop in this town. (We only have 13) He doesn't beat people, he has no racial prejudices, he has no age prejudices. He does DARE, K&N Energy for Kids, is an Operation Lifesaver Presenter, he is on the Safe House board, is teaching Driver Education this summer; he is the only Officer here willing to do Operation ChildFind which fingerprints infants and children for ID purposes. He does all this on his own time, without pay.

He also works 40+ hours a week for the City as a Police Sgt. and 20 odd hours as an auto mechanic because the City pays like crap. His combined gross income from both jobs last year was under $30,000.

For this, he gets to put up with all the verbal abuse that comes with arresting people who break the law and think that THEY should be cut some slack. Not the other assholes who break the law, just them. He gets to put up with the idiots who call and come by his home when he is Off Duty, because he is their bud. He gets to inherit all the flack from the King/Diallo incidents. Would you like to guess who gets the brunt of his anger? Three guesses, and the first two don't count.

A for instance: Last night, at 10PM (off duty)he recieved a phone call from a girl whose mother was very drunk and threatening to kill herself. He got dressed, went to her house and spent 2 hours talking her down and sober. (When he does this, he is VERY careful not to put himself in a "Conduct Situation") Bear in mind that if ANYthing happens when he is off duty, there is no Worker's Compensation to pay the medical bills, no "Cop's Widow" LOD payment from the State, no double indemity accident provision. Just the regular medical insurance (which, I admit, we are lucky to have) and $30,000 life insurance. That's it.

Is any of this making any sense to anybody? The up-shot is, that the Good Cops inherit the reputation from the Bad Cops, and just have to live with it. That is the deal that wearing The Uniform gets you. Cops are more likely to be divorced, have kids in trouble, have "mental" issues, or commit suicide than any other group I know of.

Do you have any idea how embarassing it is to bounce a check when you are married to a cop? How awful it is to have to go visit your son in jail when you are a cop/cop wife? How awful it is to spend your food stamps when you are a cop? How awful it is to never be garunteed a full night's sleep?

This is a cop's life, and his choice. Most, not all, but most, do it because they WANT to. They start out wanting to do public service, and help people. Most rapidly become disillusioned and either quit or turn into bad cops. I just hope someone will tell me if that ever happens to my Mr. He is very disillusioned and thinking about retiring or changing jobs, but that is not easy when you are almost 50.

I doubt any of you have read this far, but the point is, please don't stereotype cops any more than you would stereotype black,gay,Irish,Rom,women, etc. Thank you for listening.

Subject: RE: Do you play in a Police State?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 25 Jul 00 - 08:19 PM

There are two sorts of patriots. One sorts loooks around the world and looks for the places where they do things worse and says "We're not doing as badly as those people. We're OK."

The other sorts looks around and looks for the places where they do things better, and says "We're not doing as well as those people. We're not as OK as we thought we were."

Which sort is more likely to be driven to try to make things better?

When the children in a family turn out bad and do terrible things, you often find people turning round and saying it's the fault of the parents. But when the children of the country turn out bad and do terrible things, you find the same people saying it's not the fault of the country, it's all the fault of the people who turn out bad.

Subject: RE: Do you play in a Police State?
From: DougR
Date: 25 Jul 00 - 08:26 PM

Here! Here! Let's abolish all police departments!

Probably gonna see a lot more armed citizens though if we do.

Think I'd rathe have a police department.

DougR

Subject: RE: Do you play in a Police State?
From: Brendy
Date: 25 Jul 00 - 08:39 PM

A lot of whom are armed citizens

B.

Subject: RE: Do you play in a Police State?
From: katlaughing
Date: 25 Jul 00 - 08:51 PM

Sorcha,

I am sorry. I should have said I was speaking about the situation in Casper, only. I've met your husband and he is a fine man. You, my friend, have written a fine piece of information and I thank you for it. It is always important to remember we are all individuals, usually with the same general goals of safely raising a family, having a rewarding career, etc. You have illustrated very well how this can be just as elusive for cops as it can be for teachers, as well as any other segment of of our society.

Please accept my apologies for generalising. And, I wish you and Brian well. Thanks,

luvyakat

Subject: RE: Do you play in a Police State?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 25 Jul 00 - 08:52 PM

Police States are not good places to be a police officer. Not a good police officer, which is what most of them want to be.

Subject: RE: Do you play in a Police State?
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 25 Jul 00 - 09:00 PM

There are two sorts of patriots. One sorts loooks around the world and looks for the places where they do things worse and says "We're not doing as badly as those people. We're OK."

The other sorts looks around and looks for the places where they do things better, and says "We're not doing as well as those people. We're not as OK as we thought we were."

And perhaps a third sort, McGrath. The sort who says "my country is not a police state. It is also not a paradise. Neither is it a shining example of purity before the world. It was, however, founded on solid principles of freedom and fairness, and our greatest efforts should be devoted to striving for those principles."

Thanks for telling us about your husband Sorcha. His is the kind of story that should put it all in perspective.

Subject: RE: Do you play in a Police State?
From: InOBU
Date: 25 Jul 00 - 09:04 PM

Dear Sorcha:
I did read your whole post, and in fact, the dynamic is quite different in a small town in the US than in New York, where good cops like your husband, are lining up to join the Fire Dept. and abandoning the cop shop to the bully boys. As to some of the other posts, not yours Sorcha, it is a indication of the political ignorance in this nation that they assume my politics, and put words in my mouth. The fact is this is the only industrialised democracy without a labour party, no party for the majority of the people - and most are too ignorant to even understand that. Little take home test - Doug, Kendal, the other yanks on this board, give us a quick outline about what the Palmer Raids were about, no fair looking it up, test your political historical knowlege of your nation's politcal formation. As to the jails being full becasue of Miranda, that is to funny to answer. I would remind you of the importance basic rights were to a small number of back woods farmers who fought to bring democracy to this nation, and more, what happened to them when - led by Shay they demanded the same of Washington.
All the best
Larry

Subject: RE: Do you play in a Police State?
From: Thomas the Rhymer
Date: 25 Jul 00 - 09:06 PM

I read every word slowly and out loud... God Bless you and your Mr.!!!

Subject: RE: Do you play in a Police State?
From: catspaw49
Date: 25 Jul 00 - 09:07 PM

Leej, I tend to agree with your last paragraph and with your comments to Sorcha. I would also say that in many ways we have given up freedoms in exchange for other things, such as security. But Larry's observation is very common among a lot of people, and I'm willing to play the game for the sake of conversation.

In other words, I'll grant you your point Larry. Don't convince me of that which is wrong. I think you may see greater wrongs from where you are than where we are. Perhaps we're too dumb to notice. However, for the sake of argument here, I'll stipulate your police state. Again then.......Whatcha' gonna' do?

Spaw

Subject: RE: Do you play in a Police State?
From: InOBU
Date: 25 Jul 00 - 09:50 PM

Good question, Spaw... If any of us knew how to turn things around, Ross Pirot would not be concidered a third party, eh? I have been fighting little tyronies one at a time, but it would be nice if we had a party. Well, Spaw, maybe that's it PARTY TIME! JULY 27th! Me and Soddy! Our Birthdays! How Bout a PARTY! A LABOUR PARTY IN HONNOR OF OUR MUMS!
All the best!
Larry

Subject: RE: Do you play in a Police State?
From: Sorcha
Date: 25 Jul 00 - 09:57 PM

Thank you, Kevin, kat, and Leej; and all of you who read it all the way through. kat, I was not pointing a finger at you. And Lorcan, I do understand your points. I have been to NYC, a very,very long time ago, and it was awful then. That is one reason I live where I do.

We do have some "cop sponsored" incidents here in Small Town,Wyoming but thankfully they are few. Unfortunately, our Cheif is basically a PR rep who does not have the balls to hire the right ones, fire the wrong ones or back up his officers (aren't most of them?-- that is my perspective). The PUBLIC is always right, right or wrong.

What comes to my mind when "people" talk about cop sponsored incidents is:
The Fremont County deputy who was killed with his own gun in his patrol unit by a minor offender juvinile.
The State Pen gaurd who was killed by an inmate of the State Pen. (kat--the Martinez incident in Rawlins)
The Torrington officer (here!) who was killed in a vehicular accident while chasing a repeat rapist/escapee from our county jail. The other vehicle was also driven by an Officer chasing the escapee.
The woman who caused my brother to be fired from his cop job by filing Conduct Un-Becoming to an Officer CUBO) because he stayed at her house after a domestic violence incident involving her X and a knife............

I make NO excuses for lazy cops, bad cops, arrogant cops,etc. and we have our share and then some here because we do not pay worth shit, and we seem to be a training ground for Northern Colorado--Denver, Ft.Collins, Aurora, etc.

BTW, LOD means Line Of duty Death. Thank you all for listening and being my friends. I am having a bad day.....I lost a good friend today, and she is not replaceable.

Subject: RE: Do you play in a Police State?
From: Sorcha
Date: 25 Jul 00 - 10:08 PM

(so now we get our very own Wyoming's Dick Cheney for President of Vice, courtesy of Bush-----I am not impressed. I just might vote for a Labour Party candidate, but I have never been able to vote for a Libertarian. I ALWAYS vote, even if it is a choice between the devil and the deep blue sea........) Just try being a Democrat or an Independent in Wyoming. I am going to go cry now. Be back in a bit,after I mop up the mess.

Subject: RE: Do you play in a Police State?
From: GUEST,Lyle
Date: 25 Jul 00 - 10:09 PM

Sorcha, I think I know what you are saying, and you said it very well. Why should I know? Because you could substitute the word "police" in what you have written with the word "teacher" and it would also have been true. Did you see the snobbish, "lets-look-down-our-nose-at-the-dumb-teacher" posts on a recent thread? I'd like to see those who pretend to be so quick to judge try walking one day in the shoes of those they criticize.

Lyle

Subject: RE: Do you play in a Police State?
From: Sorcha
Date: 25 Jul 00 - 10:49 PM

Lyle--yes, and yes. How some ever, teachers in my town get paid (entry level) at least 3x what the cops here are paid. Try supporting 4 people on $8/hr. And thank you for understanding. Teachers are under appreciated, too. I have many friends who have left that profession to be carpenters, etc. When you have 13 years of seniority, and the entry level wage is only $3/hr less than yours, why bother?

Subject: RE: Do you play in a Police State?
From: InOBU
Date: 25 Jul 00 - 11:22 PM

Sorcha:
I can't say anything about the loss of a good friend, other than the pain gets more bareable after a while, though you always miss the person. In the passage of time, it becomes more possible to put the person's life in perspective, but there is always a place where you miss that person.
Spaw... I know you always appreciate a bit of humor, in fact the what to do can take a book just to outline. It does begin with responcibility, but responcility of the government to provide a meduim for doing what society is meant to do, provide a socialised community, a caring community where we don't talk about rationing health care to the poor and elderly becasue it costs too much, while doctors, drug companies and insurence companys profits are not rationed. Bill Bragg once called socialism the politic of compasion. Compasion and responcibilty are codependant concepts. Until we have a constitutional guarentee of our right to work and full employment, until we stop exporting American production, until we have a party that puts the people of this country equally first, and the minority who control the ecconomy get there share of political representation, we are going to be in the hold of the prblems which make it seem a necessity to use a criminal "justice" system to treat a health crises like drug use (the most common reason for jailing Americans). How bout, as a start, American production jobs, instead of more jails, and put the HUGE expence of jailing and trials into medical help to end drug addiction. PS Note that the majority of drug users and sellers in jail are of the race and class that make up the minority of drug sellers and users.
Gotta run, its late
All the best,
Larry

Subject: RE: Do you play in a Police State?
From: InOBU
Date: 25 Jul 00 - 11:23 PM

Sorcha:
I can't say anything about the loss of a good friend, other than the pain gets more bareable after a while, though you always miss the person. In the passage of time, it becomes more possible to put the person's life in perspective, but there is always a place where you miss that person.
Spaw... I know you always appreciate a bit of humor, in fact the what to do can take a book just to outline. It does begin with responcibility, but responcility of the government to provide a meduim for doing what society is meant to do, provide a socialised community, a caring community where we don't talk about rationing health care to the poor and elderly becasue it costs too much, while doctors, drug companies and insurence companys profits are not rationed. Bill Bragg once called socialism the politic of compasion. Compasion and responcibilty are codependant concepts. Until we have a constitutional guarentee of our right to work and full employment, until we stop exporting American production, until we have a party that puts the people of this country equally first, and the minority who control the ecconomy get there share of political representation, we are going to be in the hold of the prblems which make it seem a necessity to use a criminal "justice" system to treat a health crises like drug use (the most common reason for jailing Americans). How bout, as a start, American production jobs, instead of more jails, and put the HUGE expence of jailing and trials into medical help to end drug addiction. PS Note that the majority of drug users and sellers in jail are of the race and class that make up the minority of drug sellers and users.
Gotta run, its late
All the best,
Larry

Subject: RE: Do you play in a Police State?
From: InOBU
Date: 25 Jul 00 - 11:25 PM

whoops! Larry

Subject: RE: Do you play in a Police State?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 25 Jul 00 - 11:27 PM

Well, bottom line - I wouldn't trade my US passport for any other country's. It isn't perfect, but it's pretty good.

Subject: RE: Do you play in a Police State?
From: paddymac
Date: 25 Jul 00 - 11:53 PM

There are many perceptive comments in this thread. There is no question that being a cop is a tough job in the best of times. As we (U.S.) have moved from essentially a common law country to one governed by statutory law, the task of enforcers of all kinds became increasingly difficult for a complex of reasons - mostly because there are simply too many statutes to enforce. The proliferation of statutes is itself reflective of a problem in a statutory vs a common law scheme of things - any group can organize a legislative campaign to get their particular view of goodness and rightousness encoded in the statutes and, by definition, applicable to people who may or may not share that view. That equates to a continuously diminishing degree of consensus among the governed, and a continuously increasing constraint on individual options - ie, a loss of freedoms. The judicial system has responded to this encroachment on freedoms by creating evermore procedural standards governing aspects of enforcement. Those procedural restrictions on the enforcers create much frustration, and often invite egregious evasion or avoidance strategies. Taken all together, these realitise create a condition in which citizens sense a diminishment of certainties, though just what those certainties are depends greatly on whose perceptions are considered. The critical point occurs when "enough" people perceive a sufficient lack of "certainty" to motivate them to prefer a "strong law and order" canditate for anything from dog-catcher to president. At that point, in come the blue-shirts, and the cycle begins again in an ever deepening spiral of the decay of independence. Ever so gradually, the "law" changes form a system for "organizing" a society to a system of "oppressing" a people. These are no great, new insights. You can find all of them in the history of the Anmerican revolution, and probably in revolutionary movements in most other cultures and countries. Where does it all end, and can we collectively muster the courage and wisdom to reverse the process? Well, the end, I think, is a devolution, with or without a revolution, where social control (i.e.; "law") reverts to some form of localized concensus system.

Didn't intend to get so carried away, but after a day in the library researching arcane issues in criminal law, it just sort of oozed out. Think I need to fix myself a bit o the crature.

Subject: RE: Do you play in a Police State?
From: GUEST
Date: 26 Jul 00 - 12:22 AM

I've never played it, but play a few bars and I'll try it.

Subject: RE: Do you play in a Police State?
From: Sorcha
Date: 26 Jul 00 - 01:08 AM

Stick to the crayture, the best thing in nature......

Subject: RE: Do you play in a Police State?
From: canoer
Date: 26 Jul 00 - 01:37 AM

I believe we don't realize what a repressive (police) state we live in, because in nearly every community, with the exception of the black communities, the repression is held behind the curtains until those in power order it used. The curtains open, Mumia or the Branch Davidians or the Detroit Newspaper strikers are forcibly and illegally repressed, and the guns and clubs disappear behind the curtains again.

We are allowed all the Bill of Rights – until our use threatens to become effective in enforcing our democratic will. Then we get our visit from behind the curtain.

This is a system. An overall structure. It says absolutely nothing about the various individuals trying to find their way in this deliberately confusing situation. – 2.5 cents, I guess.

Subject: RE: Do you play in a Police State?
From: Sourdough
Date: 26 Jul 00 - 05:04 AM

I think I could have read this thread with equanimity except for two experiences. Excuse me for using this thread as a way of trying to work my way through these issues of freedom, responsibilities, and living one's ideals. In other words, this is Major Thread Creep. (actually, that would be a good screen name, "Thread Creep".

To begin:

In the late Sixties, I had the chance to train police officers, about 30,000 of them, through the Law Enforcement Assistance Agency, a division of the US Department of Justice, under a remarkable man, Ramsey Clarke.

Over the next three years, I got to meet and work with a wide variety of officers. Many of them had an imperfect understanding of the law as it applies to police work and a belief that they were being handicapped by Supreme Court decisions. What I also learned was that these same police officers had mostly joined up because they wanted to make a difference. Working in a factory or selling insurance didn't "mean" anything. They wanted jobs where they would help to keep a sense of order and of justice. I became involved with police education at the very time when it was becoming understood that the police needed more education in order to act more professionally and to better comprehend the need for such niceties as the Bill of Rights. When civilians make sure that there is enough money for police education (as well as salary) and provide active leadership, police departments tend to do well. Yes, they do protect the status quo. I think that expecting differently is a set-up for disappointment. As is the case in so many other situations, US cities get the police they deserve.

My other experience was in a different country, Suriname. It had recently gained its independence from Holland. This had been done without a rebellion, mostly because the Dutch wanted to free themselves of the colony that had become an encumbrance. Independence was granted, crowds in Paramaribo, Albina and the other cities of the new nation cheered and a civil government was voted into office.

For a while, things went smoothly. Then the 600 man army decided it wanted a raise in its pay. A group of sergeants, acting as leaders, demanded the right to form a union. The President said, "No!" and the Army came out of the barracks. Terrified, the government jumped on the next ship for Holland leaving the sergeants in charge. There had been a battle, of sorts, between the army and the police. There was a single casualty, as I recall, the band leader. This musical comedy war, gradually spiralled into an increasingly violent and ugly war, not between the civilian police and the army but between the army and the people. The sergeants, finding themselves at the head of government, were reluctant to return to the barracks. To strengthen their hold on power, they killed the intellectuals and the businessmen who had a vision of the world that went beyond the country. They destroyed the courts so there was no judicial recourse. They shut down the newspapers, appointed a "tsar" of communication to control the electronic and the pencil press and dealt summarily with any dissent. In the case of one government critic, they burst into his home at ten at night spraying automatic weapons fire as they entered the house, making sure that they shot into every closet, piece of furniture as well as rooms throughout the house. Of course, they weren't concerned that their bullets were flying into the nearby houses because these soldiers were carrying out the sergeants' orders. Then the leaders turned on each other. Life in Suriname became a nightmare.

When I think of repression, I think of this and of my own fears when I was litereally trapped in this country after the sergeants closed down the country stopping all international travel, mail and radio-telephone.

I think much of the American anger at America, and there is a lot,is grounded in disappointment at discovering they have been lied to. George Washington sometimes told lies, the architect of the visionary Declaration of Independence kept slaves, justice is not necessarily blind, etc. However, the saving grace of the the country is that it does teach these values and produces at least some people who take these values to heart to the extent that they are willing to struggle to bring us to their view. The ideals have sometimes been widely based. The soldiers who marched off to the Civil War, to World War I and then WW II believed in ideals. Many were not fighting for La Gloire, they were fighting for things even more abstract, justice, equality, freedom. They were certainly not fighting for plunder. That the ideals of the US founding fathers have a universal ring is seen by how many new nations based their governance on the US model. That we fail to live up to our ideals is the source of much bitterness but it is still a work in progress. There hasn't been anything like it before. Social organization is a most firm material. Chiseling it to a new shape, cloer tot he ideals we learned in the primary grades, is hard but luckily there are those who haven't given up their role as social sculptors.

Sourdough

Subject: RE: Do you play in a Police State?
From: sledge
Date: 26 Jul 00 - 05:30 AM

Well said Sourdough.

To surrender SOME freedom in exchange for security is, I think no bad thing. Given the way people are what would the effect of absolute freedom be, the negation of social responsibilty, anarchy, call it what you will.

In places around the globe where order has collapsed look at the result. In Siarra Leone 8 year old children are pressed in to a warlords army, is that an acceptable action to a free thinking mind.

I would much rather see a police car cruising past a school than a convoy of drug dealers and perverts. I would rather see a police task force formed in response to a murder or rape than a vigilante mob picking on the first person they saw.

I could rant all day to this, the phrase police state is I think overused, to try and apply it to the US or the UK is very poor judgement. In the UK I know that if I call the Prime minister a twat, no one will inform on me, with the result that I will be dragged off to enjoy a forced labour camp or a bullet in the brain.

If the tone of my post is a bit sharp, sorry its been a long month.

Rant rant rant ad nauseum.................

Sledge

Subject: RE: Do you play in a Police State?
From: Ringer
Date: 26 Jul 00 - 10:04 AM

You strike me as paranoid, InOBU. To answer your thread-title question from England, "No I don't, and nor do you."

If your country puts a greater proportion of its citizens in gaol than ever before in history, one reason might be that its society is naughtier than ever before. In fact I think it's probably a combination of a change to greater lawlessness in society and a change in the rules of justice, but I remind you that it's not the police who sentence people to gaol, but the courts.

You also suggest that the reason there is no Labour Party in the USA is because it is a police state, which is nonsense. And anyway, just because a political party is labelled "The Labour Party" doesn't mean that it's the party of the workers. Look at the government here, over which my father, who fought for social justice before there was a British Labour Party, would weep were he still alive. But although I vociferate against this government whenever I can, I sleep soundly; I don't expect a raid at 2am, because I don't live in a police state.

Subject: RE: Do you play in a Police State?
From: leprechaun
Date: 26 Jul 00 - 10:09 AM

So it appears not many of you are playing in a police state? Damn. What am I gonna do with these shiny new jackboots? Does this mean I don't have to hunt down InOBU, trump up some charges and stuff him away in a dank and dreary cell for a crime of which he has no knowledge and certainly did not commit? Well, O.K. Guess I'll go finish the evidence report on that last meth lab. (borrrrrring)

Subject: RE: Do you play in a Police State?
From: Willie-O
Date: 26 Jul 00 - 10:57 AM

Naughtier than ever before? Oh come off it. The major crime rates have gone down dramatically in the US in the past ten years. Everyone is scrambling to take credit. The U.S. jails are full because of the bullshit "war on drugs" which has caused highly repressive and inflexible sentencing for non-violent marijuana users and marketers. (And in some places they gave early release to far more dangerous offenders in order to accommodate the dopers.)

I was in the States for a couple of days this week, and it really struck me: its not a "police state" so much as a highly militarized culture. Interstate highways: a military network. War on Drugs; everywhere. (Yup, the war on weeds. Sheesh.) Even the way they deal with forest fires is very consciously based on a military model (see "Wildlands: The Firefight" by Steven J. Pyne, Whole Earth Review Winter 1999"). Prevalence of camouflage clothes, flags on every lamppost, and of course the national obsession with weaponry. It's just the way y'all are down there; you probably don't even see it. But its the striking difference between small towns in Canada and in the U.S., which in other ways are very similar.

By the way, I learned the hard way that in Canada, not only do we not have a "Miranda" decision, we also have no right not to incriminate ourselves. If you choose to testify at your own trial, which I did at an anti-nuclear trespass charge many years ago, you have to answer all the questions.

(The rules of evidence in Ontario work thus: you can be charged with a crime on the basis of improperly or illegally obtained evidence. You may sue for damages for the violation of your civil rights, but if you were convicted of the offence, you may not collect more than three cents!)

I think there's a major divide in policing systems going on now, in many countries including ours, between "community policing", which is obviously what Mr. Sorcha does, and what's ironically called "quality of life", or more accurately "zero tolerance". And if you think you are safe from unreasonable police intrusion into your law-abiding business, I reckon you're on the lighter side of "racial profiling".

Willie-O

Subject: RE: Do you play in a Police State?
From: Peter T.
Date: 26 Jul 00 - 10:59 AM

I have been in a number of real police states, and listened to artists and writers there, and I know that one difference between a real police state and the ones that we are lucky to live in is that in police states people take the arts very seriously. They see folk musicians, writers, actors and artists as vehicles for liberation; and they revere them when they sing, speak, write. There is nothing like that here. That is why I know we are not in a police state: nobody cares about words or music enough to die for them, fight for them, go to jail for them. They are simply recreational. The best test of this is that in order to get a repressive thrill of any kind in the arts in a society like ours you have to extoll gangsters and crime, smear excrement on icons that other people revere and push sex as far as you can in music, or whatever -- just to antagonize. No one assumes that you will be taken out and shot for putting on a production of Hamlet in a basement. That is how you know you are free, relatively. One of those amusing ironies of life.

yours, Peter T.

Subject: RE: Do you play in a Police State?
From: Thomas the Rhymer
Date: 26 Jul 00 - 12:07 PM

The relativity of various police scenarios, still basicly avoids an over-all viewpoint perspective. Like a tepid bath is so much better than ice water... well yeah, it is. Since people stopped taking ice water baths, the bathing-death statistics have plummeted! And people are so much nicer and cleaner and sexy and all... But the fact remains, that hot water works even better.

So it is with Police. Public saftey is important... JOB ONE. BUT WHY IS IT THAT POLICE SIMPLY ENFORCE THE STATUS QUO WITHOUT QUESTION? that is untill the low pay-high danger/exposure turns to corruption...

I value to the utmost the valor and devotion of public service, safety, and the peace keeping mission. I just don't understand why it is O.K. for the "KEEPERS OF THE PEACE" to work for the Makers Of War. Well, Don't They?

Subject: RE: Do you play in a Police State?
From: InOBU
Date: 26 Jul 00 - 12:10 PM

I think one of the reasons for seeing me as a paranoid, is lined to one of the least tastefull threads, why are most Mudcatter's white. The reality is that the major harms of the lack of social justice in the US are not wittnessed by most white americans until they have occation to fall out of the comfortable embrace of comfort at the cost of 70% of the world's resorces. It is not the same for Black or Hispanic Americans. It is also not the case for those who live in nations exploited to provide cheep goods for the US market, at the expence of a major American freedom, by the way, the right to a job. Now, out in middle America the connection between this and the police state may not be apparent. However, here in New York, where the police are used regularyly to break up demonstrations, and in fact under our present mayor, have been used to coorece organisers into not orgainising marches in the first place, to the point that for the first time in my memory the past several summers have had few marches, not because the issues are not here, but becasue of a return to the "red squad" days of policeing in NYC. Sure you can call the president a moron and not be jailed, but remember the real third party canadate - the socialist canadate in the Democratic primary debates the election before this one? No? It is because he got NO air time. Remember Alende, in Chile? That is where you see your tax dollors at work to destroy the potential of a socialist experiment influencing the American people. Now I realise that American oppression overseas is no concern to the average American, and until you march against it, and get brutalised by the cops, well, it doesn't look much like a police state. There is little sadder than the look on an idealistic US colege students face, the first time an American cop shoves him to the ground during a non-violent demonstration. In fourty some years I have seen that look again and agian, (never had it myself though, as a baby I saw what happens when you get out of line from the treatment my dad got). There is freedom for the apathetic in the US. I doupt any of you who think we have a safe and open society have ever serriously opposed a American policy on the street facing American police. When you do, you will see the limits of American democracy. Sure there are countries that are more dangerous, however, not many more dangerous than for American minorities. Only a few years ago, there was as much chance of dieing violiently in NYC, as there was for a front line soldier in the American army in Europe during WWII. Over seventy percent of those deaths happened in the black and hispanic community. Anyone who thinks you make a safe society by getting tough and sending in more cops, should have gone to Ireland before the sease fire, the tougher you get the tougher it gets. The way to solve societies problems is with reason not control. We, as our Canadian nieghbor points out, are becoming an increainingly violent and agressive society, both in policing, in our sports and in our use of military rather than dipolmacy and cooperative programs. And to quote Malcom X, in such times, chickens do come home to roost.
Larry

Subject: RE: Do you play in a Police State?
From: Ringer
Date: 26 Jul 00 - 01:25 PM

Are you arguing that using & pushing the weed is not illegal in the US, Willie-O? If it isn't then why are the gaols full of those who do? And if it is then you reinforce my point. You may not think much of anti-drug laws, but that's a different debate.

Subject: RE: Do you play in a Police State?
From: Bert
Date: 26 Jul 00 - 02:02 PM

Sorcha, you and your Hubby can come and live in OUR town. Please!

Bert.

Subject: RE: Do you play in a Police State?
From: kendall
Date: 26 Jul 00 - 02:07 PM

George W. and Dick Cheney..what a pair.Right and reicher. Lets look at the record. Cheney in congress voted against the Equal Rights Amend. Against ALL federal funding for abortions, and against the only federal program proven to be cost effective, Head Start. Then there was minimum wage. What does he vote FOR? Star Wars. a milti billion dollar boondoggle that has been trashed by numerous experts who worked on it. They say it wont work, because it CANT work. And, if elected, this pair will get to shape the Supreme Court for the next 40 years. Great! more Clarence Thomas' and Roe v/s Wade out the window. On the other had, the president of the National Rifle Assassination says, if W wins, they will have a friend in the White House. Excuse me but, I think I will worry about this right now.

Subject: RE: Do you play in a Police State?
From: Bert
Date: 26 Jul 00 - 02:16 PM

Kendal,

It didn't matter who he chose as running mate, ANYONE would have improved his chances.

Subject: RE: Do you play in a Police State?
From: Peter T.
Date: 26 Jul 00 - 02:21 PM

While I agree with a few things you say Inobu, one of the problems we face is the escalation and misuse of language, and the blurring of real differences to make political points. This cuts both ways: for every person on one side who says that we live in a police state, there is someone on the other side saying that the world is in danger from the leftist conspiracy run by the United Nations to take away our guns. Neither of these are true. The idea of using this kind of language (benignly) is to identify aspects of the current situation that remind one of certain of the aspects of real police states or whatever -- however the result is the opposite, it doesn't clarify, it obscures. If you say that we live in a "police state" then the only recourse is despair or armed revolution: that is what a police state is like -- I have been in African countries and South American countries under police states, and there is no comparison, none. If you live in a real police state like, for example, Burma, that is it, those are the options -- despair or revolution. If you wrote statements like you have done on the Internet in China, they would throw you in jail -- they are doing that right now to people who are writing on the Internet. That is a police state. This is not. There are important distinctions: if there weren't, we would have to give up trying to do most of the things that I assume you would want to do to change the way our societies operate. So they can't be police states in any useful sense of the words. Our societies are deeply prejudiced, weirdly skewed as to their priorities, structurally biased against the poor and minorities, and prone to punishment. But they are not police states.

yours, Peter T.

Subject: RE: Do you play in a Police State?
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 26 Jul 00 - 02:25 PM

InOBU, regarding your statement that those of us who say America is not a police state are suffering from a case of naivete and have not been involved in any political confrontations with police, I offer this small exampleclick.

Now, I believe my country suffers from many ailments, among them
1. A loss of belief in ethical and moral value in favor of material gain
2. An unfair and immoral health care system that bleeds patients dry while enriching HMOs and Chain hospitals
3.A cumbersome legal process which has become a game played by lawyers for their own enrichment
4. The absence of a generation of black fathers, who have left their children to be raised by mothers working two jobs, and the street
5. The aftermath of Reaganomics, which led to the movement of American Manufacturing offshore

and many others. But I also know this: you cannot put the blame on police for enforcing existing law. Their job is enforcement, not interpretation. If you wish to change laws, you can try, but ultimately the people will either support your attempt, or vote down your attempt. to change them. I for one believe that all drugs should be legalized, but I also realize that the majority of people don't support me in this view. Therefore, I don't put blame on police for busting crack dealers. The law is a mutually agreed upon set of behavioral rules for society. Those who violate them do so in that certain knowledge.

I also don't believe that most people in prison are being persecuted because they are innocent victims of the drug "health crises".I believe that people have free will, and that they bear responsibility for their own actions. I recall a scene in the movie Boys in the Hood, where the father of a black teen explains that the CIA and police are behind a plot to bring addictive drugs into the ghetto, and that's the reason so many black people are addicted in Compton. "The same people" he then says,"are smuggling in the illegal guns we use to kill each other.And why do we pay twice as much for a loaf of bread as they do in Simi Valley? Because the government finances outsiders to come into our neighborhoods, while suppressing black business." In other words, the crack dealer who accidently kills a four year old child caught in the crossfire with his rival, is the victim of the government and the CIA, and will likely be further persecuted by being sent to prison. The teenager who kills a shopowner while holding up the local convenience store should be forgiven, since he is the victim of exploitation. This is paranoid,self-proclaimed-martyr crap of the highest order.Unfortunately, there are many who buy it. I don't, perhaps because I am a naive inhabitant of middle America who earns a lot less than the average crack-dealer.

Subject: RE: Do you play in a Police State?
From: Sorcha
Date: 26 Jul 00 - 02:36 PM

Willie-O--Food for thought, there. You're right, I never looked at it just that way, but I believe you're on to something.

bert--PHILLY?? NO F WAY my friend. I only do towns of less than 10,000 at least 30 miles from the next town.....

LEJ--Right on the money.

Subject: RE: Do you play in a Police State?
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 26 Jul 00 - 03:20 PM

Democracy is nothing special. Remember that when the Unionists ruled the roost in Ulster for fifty years, that was democracy. When Thatcher/Reagan made it fashionable, as it still is, to give to the haves and take from the have-nots, that was democracy (the haves were in the majority, and the have-nots don't vote).

So from that self-satisfied posting by Mrzzy and LJ's comments, I think we can safely assume that neither is black, and neither is one of America's millions of have-nots.

OK, so you've recognised some shortcomings LJ. But with one in 20 black Americans in jail, that wouldn't be difficult. But what about this: police states don't have independent judiciaries. Neither does America. Mandatory sentences are judgments imposed by here-today-gone-tomorrow politicians. They are an abuse of democracy, just as a franchise based on land ownership was an abuse of democracy in Northern Ireland.

I wouldn't mind so much about the shortcomings in Britain and the USA if it wasn't for the hypocrisy. In Britain, it took most of the 20th century and a mountain of incontrovertible evidence to prove that there could be such a thing as a miscarriage of justice. Now it seems like every lifer turns out to be innocent after 10-20 years inside. Thank God we didn't hang 'em all. Only some.

American politicians, for their part, clamoured for an international court of justice, but backed off with alacrity when they realised that its jurisdiction could extend to US citizens. That would never do, because US justice is the best. What?

Subject: RE: Do you play in a Police State?
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 26 Jul 00 - 03:23 PM

Sorry folks, that should have been "black American male adults." So not so bad...

Subject: RE: Do you play in a Police State?
From: leprechaun
Date: 26 Jul 00 - 03:39 PM

My unit seizes about four times as many guns from marijuana dealers as from all other drug dealers combined. In my town, marijuana dealers are more prone to violence, and more likely to assault police or each other. The defense attorneys/money launderers would have you believe otherwise, but in fact only a tiny percentage of the wealth amassed by the drug dealers is recovered by forfeiture. But the myth of the harmless pot dealer persists.

A heroin dealer can get a significant sentence if we catch him with a hundred grams of heroin. To get a commensurate sentence for a marijuana dealer, we'd have to catch him with several hundred pounds. Still, there are lots of people out there like Willie-O, who pretend marijuana dealers are persecuted more than rapists and murderers.

It's the same people who spew out this garbage about a police state who vastly inflate "statistics" to prove how oppressed they are.

The only status quo here is if you don't like the status quo you have a peaceful mechanism to change it. It's slow and cumbersome, and you may not succeed in convincing enough of our boorish electorate to be as enlightened as you are. That's when you superior thinkers have to have your "non-violent protest." I've seen one non-violent protest in fifteen years of police work. All the rest were predicated on the philosophy that says, "If you don't let us do whatever we want we'll riot," with the addendum, "If you do let us do whatever we want we'll escalate." Such escalation is always defended by the ridiculous and ubiquitous claim that "if the police hadn't shown up there wouldn't have been a problem."

Maybe some day the police will quit showing up. Then the protesters can see how well the people referred to in Doug R's post can distinguish between the rock-throwing berserkers and the "peaceful" protesters who are there to provide a protective phalanx for the guerrillas.

In this thread some people have gone from demonizing all police in this "police state," to only demonizing the police in big cities and Casper. Chances are there are several police officers in big cities and Casper who have wives or husbands with the same concerns and anxieties as Sorcha. I doubt if there's even one of them who doesn't have to put up with regular abuse from self-indulgent snot-nosed know-it-all whelps who insist on portraying themselves as "oppressed."

Subject: RE: Do you play in a Police State?
From: leprechaun
Date: 26 Jul 00 - 03:47 PM

Subject: RE: Do you play in a Police State?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 26 Jul 00 - 04:17 PM

There's misunderstanding around here. When people talk about places being "police states" they aren't saying the police are in charge. They are saying that the people in power use the police to hold on to power. That is a significantly different thing. And when you do have a police state, the police are its victims as well.

But Lonesome, I got lost in that last paragraph of yours. I never saw the film concerened - but you seemed to be saying that even if it is true that the CIA and so forth supplied the drugs and the guns, it wouldn't be right to say that they are to blame, because other people were to blame in a more hands-on way, using the guns and selling the drugs. I think I probably misunderstood what you were saying.

I think there's a fallacy in using terms like "police state" and "democracy" as if they were all-or-nothing terms - and also as if they were mutually exclusive. You get places where there is no democracy at all, and places where there is a little, and places where there is a lot; again you can have places which have some of the qualities of a police state (some of the time and towards some people), and places which are more that way, and places which are out-and-out police states.

But as I pointed out, the regime which was probably the most evil in the history of the human race was in some ways democratic, came to power through an electoral process, and was extremely popular.

Subject: RE: Do you play in a Police State?
From: InOBU
Date: 26 Jul 00 - 05:13 PM

As being a snot nose... and statistics
Working in a criminal defence firm, I worked on numerous police brutality cases, often from White plaintifs, as Black New Yorkers, who are beaten by cops have a low expectation of justice... .. doorbell gotta run, I'l get back to this...

Subject: RE: Do you play in a Police State?
From: InOBU
Date: 26 Jul 00 - 05:26 PM

For years we fought to get a civilian complaint review board, a civilian group to oversee police brutality, what we got was a police review board of civilian complaints, and the number of complaints quickly dropped as the complainants saw that most of the work of the review board's cops was to cover up the evidence of brutality. So, rather than being a snot nosed know it all, I was involved from the inside in seeing the brutality and lack of results. This nation called Cuba a police state, citing as evidence nine cases of police brutality. In fact, every one of those cases were vigorously prosicuted and the cops got long jail sentences. If we had a week with only nine cases of brutality by cops in New York, I would be surprised.
Anyone who thinks this is the paranoia of a life long agitator, well, at present the federal government is moved to place federal oversight over the NYC cops for their record of brutality. The city government is fighting to keep that from happening. As to the fed's record on brutality, see the post about Anna May (Mae) Aguash.
Now, fact is, cops do hard and thankless work, however, like any one else, without proper oversight, we all do less than adiquate work. When the job discription includes leathal force, I think we need a damn well better job of oversight than is currently being excersied. Well, maybe another day we can get into the institution of testilying - false evidence by cops, which I have also seen far too much of.
All the best
Larry

Subject: RE: Do you play in a Police State?
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 26 Jul 00 - 05:30 PM

McGrath, I used the film as an example of a specific fallacy (the CIA plot to depopulate the ghetto justifying criminal activity) that reflects a larger fallacy (many of those in prison in America are political prisoners, or have been victimized through no fault of their own). I do not believe in the movie's premise. I do believe that that kind of thinking gives criminal activity a veneer of acceptability to some. Robin Hood has always been a more desirable hero than Al Capone.

Subject: RE: Do you play in a Police State?
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 26 Jul 00 - 05:36 PM

Oh...and I do highly recommend the movie as a realistic representation (or so it strikes me) of life in the ghetto. It's only the short proselityzing speech sighted above that I found objectionable.

Subject: RE: Do you play in a Police State?
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 26 Jul 00 - 05:46 PM

Forgive the three posts, but InOBU's came while I was typing previous.

InOBU, well said. I am certainly not disputing the fact of corruption or misuse of authority by metropolitan police forces. Recently, records of the Denver Police Dept were seized by the FBI because of a spate of unjustified no-knock raids, one of which resulted in the shooting of an innocent man(wrong address). These occurrences of misuse and abuse of authority must be identified and stopped. The difference may be that I consider them an aberration, whereas you seem to consider them the norm. Perhaps in NYC they are the norm, and that is chilling.

Subject: RE: Do you play in a Police State?
From: Peter T.
Date: 26 Jul 00 - 05:55 PM

Well, one original point still stands, which is the ridiculous number of people in prison (Canada is somewhat better, but it is still absurd). That the vast bulk of them are poor, mentally slow if not disturbed, and a substantial fraction black in the US, is strong evidence that the system is not exactly based on the purity of being able to choose right and wrong all the time. There are all kinds of social factors involved, and to dump all these people into prison is nuts. What happened to rehabilitation in supposedly Christian countries? We have moved completely away from the New Testament to the Old (I mean this in the generic sense of the vengeful Jehovah, not the true Jewish faith) -- as far as I can see there are only two things going on -- punishment as a form of brutal social vindication, and putting the problem away so that no one will notice. It is morally bankrupt.

I leave the ridiculous drug war for another rant.

yours, Peter T.

Subject: RE: Do you play in a Police State?
From: Thomas the Rhymer
Date: 26 Jul 00 - 06:06 PM

Do we really need police protection for policemen? Would weed growers have guns if the weed wasn't illegal? Would gangs be inviting to a community that was inspired? Hey, boys, you need to believe in bad people or somethin'? Policemen are paid to do what?... enfore laws. Policemen are the obvious ones to ask if they think the laws are working. I don't think a policeman's carreer is going to get a real boost by coming out against guns, and for legalisation of weed. This is what I call repression. The people who have the guns and the experience, CAN'T speak their minds, aren't paid to study legal/pshyc/polital matters, but MUST follow party lines or find another line of work. It is simple, and nazi Germany exemplifies the point. Scarcity (or percieved scarcity) fuels and lubricates this machine. Also, don't go on with me about police simply enforceing laws... Selective enforcement IS the standard by which others are judged. Race, orientation, appearance, and political beliefs are systematically chipped from the edges of 'the bell curve' to create a more 'ideal' world. However, this more ideal world is often more a projection of 'Leave it to Beaver' or 'Mayberry' than it is the realization of the WTO protests. Corporate domination of American life is sanctioned by the police. Look across this country and tell me that it is working. Strip malls and broken down farms do not make people happy. The AMA doesn't even recognize the world wide epidemic of systemic candida albicans (which is why I have so much time to write right now...). Guns are constantly an issue. Kids are freaked and we don't even recognise their symptoms. Yep, I am dissatisfied with the way things are, and I vote. I also play folk music for people who may not agree with me. It cuts down the tips, but I don't get the sadness that accompanies the preaching to the choir. When police are unable to act truly by conscience, and their government is assembled periodically by a misinformed and decadent populous, the police state is easily possible. Just throw in a little scarcity, and inevitable is the word that comes to my mind...

ttr

Subject: RE: Do you play in a Police State?
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 26 Jul 00 - 06:31 PM

The German experience was a little more complex than McGrath's postings imply. Hitler certainly had a huge, fanatical following, but it was nothing like a majority of the electorate when he was elected Chancellor, as leader of a minority party. Thereafter all semblance of democracy was quickly dismantled.

If pre-war Germany tells us anything, it is how vulnerable a democracy can be to manipulation, and what can result when a nation is made to taste dirt as Germany was under the Versailles treaty.

The biggest political party in Germany in 1933 was the Catholic Party, but Hitler did a deal with Cardinal Pacelli (later Pious XII),whereby Catholic institutions would be left unmolested if Catholics withdrew from all political activity. The Catholic Party, the one democratic organisation that could have stood in Hitler's way, was accordingly disbanded. In the event of course, the Catholics lost out all ways round, as did anyone else who tried striking deals with Hitler. In fairness to Germany's Catholics, it should be said that Paccelli acted over the heads of, and in defiance of the Catholic hierarchy in Germany, among which many clergy, from archbishop downwards, remained courageously defiant of the Third Reich.

Subject: RE: Do you play in a Police State?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 26 Jul 00 - 06:58 PM

"It is how vulnerable a democracy can be to manipulation" - and still is.

The electoral system that gave us Hitler was what is generally referred to as "democratic".

Yes, he was elected by a minority of the electorate. But that's the normal state of afairs in countries we still call "democracies". Maggie Thatcher was elected by a little over 40 per cent of those who voted. So was Tony Blair. They both had huge majorities because of a bizarre electoral system. (Of course when the same thing hap-pened in Chile, the generals were told to take over - and that was a police state and a half.)

And of course all Presidents of America are elected by a small fraction of the country, given the tiny proportion of people who vote in yet another first past the post system.

The point I was making was, just because you can call it democratic doesn't mean you can trust it.

Subject: RE: Do you play in a Police State?
From: InOBU
Date: 26 Jul 00 - 07:02 PM

Forget the fictional movies, check out the attempt to bring to trial, in Florida the conection between John Hull, and the Contragate drug conections, Oliver North, and the La Penga bombing... as far as the CIA using drug money to fund black ops, some, like drugs for guns for hostages in Iran led by a presidential canadate, which rise to the level of treason. At what point do people stop overlooking the rot in the roots of government. We are so insain in our hatred of Castro, that we completely look the other way on the home front.
Larry

Subject: RE: Do you play in a Police State?
From: Sorcha
Date: 26 Jul 00 - 07:13 PM

Lorcan: Good idea, that. I am going to approach our Chief about a civilian review board for brutality/internal affairs cases. It doesn't happen often in My Home Town, but it does happen. I don't think the civilans involved should be involved with the justice system in any way--no cop spouses, lawyer or judge spouces, just John Q. Public. Intelligent ones, of course, with a little common sense. We do have a civilan board that interviews applicants, but that is not enough. I wish someitmes, that Chief would ask me what I think about an applicant, but of course he never does, and never will. I am too opionated and over the last 13 years have been right about a new Officer much more often than wrong.

Subject: RE: Do you play in a Police State?
From: M. Ted (inactive)
Date: 26 Jul 00 - 10:38 PM

As the longtime resident of Philadelphia, I have seen a lot of very brutal things that people tend not to believe--unless, like Larry, they have had direct contact with people who were involved.

Larry is pretty much the one to listen to here--but I will not argue, I will only ask you to watch the demonstrations that will coincide with the Republican convention next week to see what happens--where we have been promised a bloodbath by no lesser a person than the Mayor--and the Philadelphia police have proven on many occasions that they can deliver on that promise--then maybe we'll have something to talk about--

Subject: RE: Do you play in a Police State?
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 27 Jul 00 - 07:01 AM

McGofH, looks like we're in complete agreement then. I was just quibbling with the suggestions that Hitler had "popular support" and was "extremely popular," which was a bit unfair on our German friends.

On the absurdities of democracy British style, all manner of examples may be cited. My own particular favourite is that Tony Blair's ludicrously huge victory in 1997 was achieved from fewer votes than Labour got in 1951 under Clem Attlee. Labour lost in 1951.

Subject: RE: Do you play in a Police State?
From: InOBU
Date: 27 Jul 00 - 08:59 AM

Hi Sorcha: Only have a minute, have to run off to do birthday stuff with the wee wifie, but I just wanted to comend your caring, it is like being a good parent, systems take close watching and guidence. All the best - Larry

Subject: RE: Do you play in a Police State?
From: GUEST,Roger the skiffler
Date: 27 Jul 00 - 09:34 AM

I'd like to think not, all my personal dealings with police have been positive ones. However, I have a friend who works in computing so works stange hours and gets a smart car to use. He is one of the safest drivers I know,never drinks and drives, yet is frequently stopped if driving in London in the small hours and asked to prove ownership. We were both born in the UK, but, of course, he is black and I am a sort of pink.
RtS

Subject: RE: Do you play in a Police State?
From: Jim the Bart
Date: 27 Jul 00 - 10:29 AM

I'm not sure where I read this - might have been Lenin - but as the differences between the really rich and the really poor become greater and greater, more and more pressure gets put on the middle class. There is pressure to keep the system from blowing apart and there is pressure to keep what they have. And when the middle class is threatened, they turn to the police for protection. In areas where the middle class (or those with middle class pretensions) are most immediately threatened, i.e., where they are in close proximity to the poorer classes, you see more evidence of the misuse of power by the police in support of the middle class wish for order and security.

I think that if you look you'll see that there is greater and greater disparity between the rich and poor, both on the individual and national level. We here in America get outraged when "our rights" (our economic status) is threatened. That's why we object to other countries charging too much for gas (gouging) and too little for electronics (dumping). We are more than willing to sacrific free market capitalism (there really ain't no such thing)to protect our lousy job or crunny vacation trip. To greatly over-simplify - we, the middle class in America - want it all our way and we will pass any law, elect any despot, or sacrifice any of your rights to keep what we have.

All that being said, I think Spaw's question still stands. "What're you gonna do?" And the answer, IMHO, is to keep up the discourse. Keep poking at the soft spots in this here great society.

The question posed in this thread is important. We must constantly look at this (and many other touchy questions) as we try to balance order and freedom. That is the cost of maintaining a representative democracy - you gotta keep working on it. You have to pay attention. It's your responsibility to stay informed. It's your responsibility to reject pat answers and easy solutions. "Kill the bastards and lock up the rest" is an easy way to remove "naughty" people from your safe little haven. But once you accept that, you live in fear that someone won't decide that it's you that's nasty next. When you decide that freedom is a value that you want to maintain, you add a certain amount of risk to the equation. I will accept the risk most of the time, when I've considered the alternative.

I know. You probably won't find one original idea in this whole post. But I think there are some here that are rather costly to forget.

Subject: RE: Do you play in a Police State?
From: Sorcha
Date: 27 Jul 00 - 10:43 AM

Will Wonders Never Cease!! This morning Brian brought home a lovely card, HANDWRITWTEN!, from one of his Driver's Ed students and her parents thanking him for spending time teaching and driving her. They also sent a rather large box of chocolates........I am just floored, so is he. There are still people out there who care.

Subject: RE: Do you play in a Police State?
From: canoer
Date: 27 Jul 00 - 11:30 AM

Isn't it great, the wonders that a simple card and small gift can do for our spirits?

My mom taught kindergarten, and occasionally had the same thing happen.

My experience has always been, that the "people who care" are many many many. But it's only rarely that someone will overcome their internal hesitations, and show it.

This points to another aspect of a repressive society: repression of our instincts toward community & solidarity. Why aren't simple cards, thanks, appreciations, the norm -- instead of the exception? --Larry C.

Subject: RE: Do you play in a Police State?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 27 Jul 00 - 01:16 PM

As you said Fionn "Labour lost in 1951." But they got more votes that time than the Tories who won... Funny system.

But somewhere they are doing things right - in San Marino they have just closed down their jail after 27 years because it's never been used to keep a prisoner. "We will use it as a community centre" said the mayor, Fabio De Angelis. "Our police chief doubles as a stray--dog catcher and coroner when he isn't running hgis florist shop." (That's from todays Guardian, in London)

That'sfunny - but it should bring us up short and set us thinking. The thing is some ways of structuring society produces crime and others don't. That doesn't mean that people who do bad things don't carry responsibility for them - but if you pretend it begins and ends there, you are fooling yourself.

A country which finds itself locking up millions of its citizens because they have committed crimes, has to recognise that there must be something wrong with the way it is doing things to produce so many people who merit being locked up. (That's leaving aside the question whether some of the crimes people get locked up for shouldn't be crimes in the first place, because that's really another issue.)

Subject: RE: Do you play in a Police State?
From: Thomas the Rhymer
Date: 27 Jul 00 - 02:24 PM

In 1990, emminently credible professor types agreed that "the united states has more people incarcerated than do all of the rest of the world combined." This reality is absolutely INSANE!

Subject: RE: Do you play in a Police State?
From: DougR
Date: 28 Jul 00 - 12:37 AM

Well, Sourdough, you lost me when you referred to Ramsey Clark as a remarkable man. But I guess that can be taken more than one way. DougR

Subject: RE: Do you play in a Police State?
From: InOBU
Date: 28 Jul 00 - 06:00 AM

Roger the Skiffler:
As you are probubly aware, driving while black is a potentialy leathal act here in the States as well. A friend of mine, a Black court cleark, a very good job - high pay here, lives in a majority Black neighborhood because he is comfortable with people of his own culture. As a well dressed Black man, in an expensive car, he can count on at least two rough searches by local police a year. Even with his status as an employee of the courts, he has lost faith in making reports of his treatment, and counts himself luckey when his police encounters are not violent. As a teaching assistant, my professor, Derek Bell, told me a story of a white student of his, (a Harvard law student) who was dating a Black med student, I believe also at Harvard. While driving through Rode Island, they were stopped for no expressed reason, though they assumed it was because they were an inter-racial couple, and as they were questioned about their destination, the offier kept the barrel of his gun pointed at the Black fellow's head. A similar stop resulted in a case that a colege of mine is currently litigating, where a Black teen age driver was afraid to stop, also in Rode Island I believe, or near by, he is a resident of Ct. He attempted to drive to a populated location to stop when being followed by a cop car on a deserted rural road. He found himself surounded by cop cars and he got out with his hands raised. A cop triped and his gun went off, and a ring of cops opened fire hitting the young man numerous times, and he survied by luck, loosing part of his privates. The reason for his intitial stop, was a concept in American poicing, I heard defended by my criminal proceedure professor at NYU, being racialy out of place, a person of one race being found in a neighborhood wherein the majority is of another race. Funny enough (not really funny at all) a white man in America, is never out of place.
Really appreciated Bartholomew's comments. Racalism in the US acts as a great pressure valve on class unhappyness in the US, as it produces a permant sub working class, which can be blaimed as the naughty class, justifying our huge prison popluation, taking the attention away from those at the top creating the missery. Without race conciousness, we might have class conciousness...
Larry

Subject: RE: Do you play in a Police State?
From: leprechaun
Date: 29 Jul 00 - 02:24 PM

A couple of elections ago our community had the opportunity to initiate a citizen's police review board. The police union remained silent on the issue, such that there was virtually no opposition to the initiative. It still lost. Apparently enough voters noticed the people who screamed the loudest for a police review board were the same folks who planned the riots. In some communities a citizen's review board might be able to fairly evaluate police actions. The danger is that people who toss around terms like "police state," who are utterly incapable of impartiality with respect to law enforcement, invariably position themselves to get on a police review board so they can advance their agenda.

A well trained police officer will predicate every decision on how it will look to scores of folks who get to dissect the actions at their leisure. This includes police supervisors, district attorneys, defense attorneys, and judges. Everything a police officer does or doesn't do may eventually be scrutinized by a group of civilians. They're called juries. So every time a police officer does something, he or she has to consider criminal law, civil law, rules of evidence, constitutional rights, department policy, the safety of the participants, and most importantly, survival.

Once they take the action, they have to write a report, preserve the evidence, and try not to incur any overtime, often while being pressured to be available for the next significant call.

Now along comes the defense attorney, who gets to analyze the report and the evidence to figure out the most plausible lie to help the client get off with the minumum amount of punishment, and preserving the maximum amount of spoils. Any omission or mistake by the officer in the above described list of tasks can be magnified to great advantage. If a defense attorney can seed the jury with a few of the right people, a little suborned perjury here, a little race-baiting there, some well-placed exasperated sighs and condescending scowls, and voila! The police officer becomes the evil racist jack-booted thug, and the poor beleaguered client gets to be a victim of an oppressive system.

The magic of this scenario is that even if the jury doesn't buy it, and the miscreant gets that minuscule piece of what's coming to him, the defense attorney can still decry the injustice of it all, and bruit it about that the client was cheated. Some day all this wailing will come to fruition, and the defense attorney will get that juror on the panel who believes we live in a police state, and all the police just support the status quo no matter what, and all the police are racists, and the police are just an arm of the corporate robber-barons, keeping the poor in their place and blah blah blah.

Snot-nosed brat.

Subject: RE: Do you play in a Police State?
From: InOBU
Date: 29 Jul 00 - 05:52 PM

Well, Leprechaun makes my point well.
That is the very thinking that necessitates oversight over the police, the idea that democracy and due process are the enemy. Now, when cops get caught, as in Yonkers, murdering a fellow, over a parking space in front of the cop's family pizza shop, suddunly, who do the go to? A defense lawyer, and still comlain the world is quick to judge them.
I, for one, never organised a riot, however, as is my right and obligation as a citizen I have been among organisers of non-violent protests that were violently set upon by police officers, who by the way, obviously ommitted the 1st amendment when they swore to uphold the Constitution.
As to my agenda? Not to compkicated... I want to live in a country where a citizen does not fear to be brutalised by police officers on the basis of his or her race or class. I realise that some citizens concider that to be an endorsemnet of totalitarinaism, well, that is why we keep struggling for justice. I prefer Clorachauns, my self... better for the craic.
Larry

Subject: RE: Do you play in a Police State?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 29 Jul 00 - 09:22 PM

It's not my place to make judgements about America. But I know that in this country, England, innocent people have been locked up in prison for much of their lives. And the main reason why has been that there have been police officers who have lied through their teeth, destroyed and withheld evidence, and forged confessions.

The Maguires were innocent. The Guildford Four and the Birmingham Six were innocent. And the list goes on. And it isn't just the well known cases - just for an example, my son's best friend at school was locked up for a month, at a crucial time of his education because he went on a demonstration, and was falsely accused of things he had not done, by a policeman on oath.

That doesn't mean that, in the words of the traditional saying "All coppers are bastards", because they aren't. But it is true that many otherwise decent police officers see it as acceptable to turn a blind eye sometimes to what colleagues get up to.

Civilian review boards are all very well - but the real thing that is needed is a change in the police culture, so that turning a blind eye was seen by decent police officers not as an honourable or at any rate acceptable thing to do, but as a shameful failure of duty, and as a betrayal of the police service.

Subject: RE: Do you play in a Police State?
From: Sorcha
Date: 30 Jul 00 - 01:18 AM

Well, here I am again, standing up for the wrong side of The Job. I just found out that Himself will be ALL ALONE after 3:00 this morning. This means that if he gets a SERIOUS or DANGEROUS call, his options are:

Go alone, and take a chance.
Call for back up and wait for said back up to answer the phone, get out of bed, wake up, get dressesd, go to the CopShop and then go to the site of the incident. Which means a 20 minute wait, minimum, for the victim. What is happening to the victim in the meantime? Just what do I do here?

Call the Chief or the Mayor at midnight and tell them of my displeasure that my husband is in potential danger, or that the Citizens are in potential danger? I don't think so..........just file for Death Benefits, and a civil suit if anything does happen? If I just do that, where is the real vicitm in this incident?

Friends, it ain't cut and dried here.

Is this thread worth starting a Part II? It is getting very long. Let me tell you,being married to a Cop sucks. Sucks big time, but I love him. So there are no easy outs for me.

Kinda like being married to a preacher man, huh, Praise?

(ok, sorch, it's your choice, so deal with it.............)

Subject: RE: Do you play in a Police State?
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 30 Jul 00 - 05:48 AM

Worse than that, Derek Bentley, Timothy Evans and Jimmy Hanratty (his "pardon" is still in the "pipeline") were all innocent too. They are all dead - hanged, as former Master of the Rolls Lord Denning wished the Birmingham Six had been, so they would not have been able to expose British justice to ridicule.

Be fair to the cops though: most of the time that they're bending and fabricating the evidence, they do believe they're dealing with guilty people, and merely fast-tracking the process. The problem is that it's not their place to judge, and when they do they often get it wrong.

Without doubt there is the occasional genuine villain among them, just as Sorcha seems to have found one of the decent variety.

Subject: RE: Do you play in a Police State?
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 30 Jul 00 - 06:15 AM

Should have said, as it's not obvious, that most of my last posting should have been addressed to McGrath.

Subject: RE: Do you play in a Police State?
From: InOBU
Date: 30 Jul 00 - 10:23 AM

Sorcha:
From you descriptions, and from your posts (good people find each other generally) it sounds like your husband is a good and level headed fellow, and it is often the rash cowboy types that attact trouble in a bad situation. And, he has all of our prayers riding with him every night.
McGrath, that is exactly what I was saying earlier, we all cut corners in our work, and when a cop does it, rights and life are at stake. There are some jobs, like doctors and cops, that because of the eliment of life and death, a higher standard must be applied. In the days when the medical profession was not highly regualted, you had many more reckless doctors. There was a rather highly promoted book, by a fellow named Ulliver, a crim law prof at COlumbia, called Tempered Zeal, about a case within the 9th precinct (where I live by coincidence). It showed how careful police work was enough and we did not need adversarial trials which get in the way of police work. He recomened an investigatory system - such as Russia had, and Leprechaun recomends - by assumption from his list of what is wrong. The proof in the book is that the case examined resulted in a confession. What he does not say in the book, is that the confession was unsigned an typed. After the book was published a (snot nosed - Leprechaun?) criminal defense lawyer, a friend of mine, had the conviction overturned, proving the man the 9th had framed was innocent, and subsiquent excellent police work, now under the hightened scruteny of having been shown wrong, found the fellow who actually committed the murder.
A last word about name calling. The use of such terms as snot nosed, undercuts you argument, Leprechaun, as it shows that your rehtoric is only window dressing on your lack of respect for those who disagree with you, and when you argue about the motives of defense attournies, while calling them snot noses, well your vission of a well regualted society controlled by bully boys is clear. It is like the cry of take the handcuffs off the cops, let the courts step back and give the cops the freedom to act on their gut prejudices.
All the best to all, and Genie and my prayers for Sorcha and Officer Mr, Sorcha
Larry
PS McGrath remember the Ewan McColl song, Go Down You Murderer Go Down? Doesn't that say it all?

Subject: RE: Do you play in a Police State?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 30 Jul 00 - 10:51 AM

To answer the original question, yes, we all play in a police state...to some extent. When Buffy Sainte-Marie can be banned off all radio stations in North American for 10 or more years at the very height of her career, simply because she told the truth about what happened to the Indians...that's a police state. When peaceful protestors who bring attention to gross injustice can be attacked with pepper spray, trunchions, and mounted police...that's a police state. There is a small minority of incredibly rich people at the top of our society here in North America (Canada included in this). They bleed the world white to maintain their bloated lifestyle. They run the banks, the political parties, and the media. They demonize small countries like Cuba in order to fool us into supporting their corrupt agenda. They worship not God but money (of course, the religious right worships both God AND money, but that's a special case...). The police are their unwitting tools of oppression. I personally know some police officers here in Canada, and they are mostly people of excellent character who try very hard to do their duty and serve the public. It's not their fault that they are sometimes used as storm troopers. It's the fault of a system that values only money and the gun. We cannot rest on our laurels here, we have to struggle for freedom in every way we can, and expose the lies that are foisted upon us. Do what Buffy Sainte-Marie did. Speak your truth and sing it so that all the world may hear, and its conscience be awakened. The fight against oppression never ends while there is one voice left that is willing to sing the truth.

Subject: RE: Do you play in a Police State?
From: Lena
Date: 30 Jul 00 - 12:16 PM

Can I contribute with a survey in another three countries?! The first one is my native Italy.Things DID change in the space of a generation,I'm glad to say.Example:in the '70es,when my mother would protest,cops (seems) where given anphetamines to increase violence.My mom told me some gruesome bits.There is this episode,fixed in my mind,about a student protest being raided from the police.My mother was caught.A peaceful friend of hers was beated on his head until his right ear was torn off.Another one,pregnant,was kicked right on her belly with a rifle(the baby was all right).As mum was siezed by her long hair(she was sixteen or younger)she screamed to the cop:Look at me!!!I could be your sister!!!.And she was left untouched.I like to think about it.When I did the same thing,many years later,cops were seen as an instrument of the Government.Students would throw coins at them,but the police(a thing which gets me ashamed of my fellows'behaviour)never reacted a single time.

Another country is France.I would have enjoyed my travels there a bit more if it wasn't for for the violence you breathe.There's violence from the street kids and there's more violence from the police.Example:I got in Montpellier,South France,early in the morning.As I walked to the streets,there was this hidden hell moving in the shadows.People my age emptying pockets of trousers who know where they got,approaching us in the strangest ways,etc...I stayed there a few hours.As we were at the train station,a completely stoned junkie started hanging around us.Just a few broken words.By the time I got on the train,the last thing I saw were three cops Beating him to the ground with sticks.Connecting the circle,does this sound a catch 22 thing?! Last country is Australia.And yes,here is a bit like playing in a police state.There is a great paranoia about alcool-it's a crime to walk with an opened bottle...- and most of the music venues are pubs.There you are.And aussies seem to fall in hte alcool thing all the time,even if they're often armful only to theirselves.I live in the Cross,if anybody knows about it.Our Real Estate Agent got shot the first time he came to visit us.Friends who come over at our place can't get used to the constant sound of police cars.Others can't stand coming because junk-addicted friends where left to die here.People comes for fights here,you can see the blood if you walk around early in the morning.But wait,I love this place(like Simon&Garfunkel would...)and I can walk freely and safely through it anytime,day and night.Cops know what to whatch and what to stop.And I see the embarassed,concerned face of a human being on them quite often .(even if my father curses them everytime he comes over...)It's hard work.As a white person,my experience is positive.AS A WHITE.

You want a playing episode?!OK.Jamming on the beach ,summertime.People of every race drumming and having fun.Cops come over.There are bottles all over,probably joints.Do they look at us?!No.They walk stright to a bunch of aborigenees and empty their glasses.Second night.Cops come over don't care about alcool consumption(drinkin is prohibited pretty much everywhere eccept your place,restaurants and pubs),about the noise,whatever.They kick a sleeping aborigin person,grab him and carry it in the police car.None of the hippie arseholes up there sayis anything.They keep on playing(I would have carried them in the car...selfish kids...).I followed the car,walked(I was probably trying to calm down my conscience,I admit it.OK) through the police station station,whatever,I never got track of that man,nor got to know his true offence.Despite Reconciliation tensions and some self-blaiming/winging,aboriginal people here is still in the hands of under-schooled,violent,racist cops.Mind you,I talked before about good cops.But it looks like a fair slice of ugly ones are left to their Death in Custody Game here,which won't figure among the Olimpic ones.The End

Subject: RE: Do you play in a Police State?
From: Thomas the Rhymer
Date: 30 Jul 00 - 04:02 PM

Dear leprechaun, I am so sad..................... To see such anger, don't be mad.................... When victims fight each other, well............... The truly bad have made life hell.................

I dont believe your angry ways............... Allow the best in all our days............... And it is often true you know.............. The paying public likes a show.............

Are you sure that fierce approach............... Is not affrontive AND reproach.................. The tactic in police-state "heavens"............... Provocate! and then use weapons...............

I wonder if your basic premise.................. That "snot nosed brats are our great meanace"............ Isn't so much "busy work"..................... To keep us acting, both like jerks..............

I'm sorry here if I offend you.................. You do good work, not many men do................ I'm only trying to cheer things up................. Let's laugh and sing, and have a cup!................

Subject: RE: Do you play in a Police State?
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 30 Jul 00 - 04:32 PM

So that's what happened to Buffy Sainte-Maire. Can you add any more to that, Little Hawk? I mean was it literally for just telling the truth about the Indians?

Subject: RE: Do you play in a Police State?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 30 Jul 00 - 09:32 PM

Hello Fion, I know of no other musician who was so thoroughly blacklisted as Buffy Sainte-Marie. It all started around 1965, I believe, as the government reacted (secretly) to her recordings of 2 songs "Now That The Buffalo's Gone" and "My Country 'Tis of Thy People You're Dying". Of these 2 songs, the latter one is the most harrowing protest song probably that has ever been written. I include the lyrics below...

Now that your big eyes are finally opened Now that you're wondering "How must they feel?" Meaning them that you've chased 'cross America's movie screens, Now that you're wondering "How can it be real?" That the ones you called colorful, noble and proud In your school propaganda, they starve in their splendour, You've asked for my comment, I simply will render... My Country 'tis of thy People you're dying.

Now that the longhouses breed superstition You force us to send our toddlers away To your schools where they're taught to despise their traditions. Forbid them their languages, then further say That American history really began When Columbus set foot out of Europe, and stress That the nation of leeches that's conquered this land Are the biggest and bravest and boldest and best, And yet where in your history books is the tale Of the genocide basic to this country's birth Of the preachers who lied, how the Bill of Rights failed How a nation of patriots returned to their earth And where will it tell of the Libery Bell As it rang with a thud over Kinzua mud (* Kinzua dam area was stolen from Native Americans by a broken treaty) And the brave Uncle Sam in Alaska this year My Country 'tis of the people you're dying.

Hear how the bargain was made for the West With her shivering children in zero degrees "Blankets for your land" so the treaties attest Full well, blankets for land is a bargain indeed! And the blankets were those Uncle Sam had collected Off smallpox diseased dying soldiers that day And the tribes were wiped out, and the history books censored, A hundred years of your statesmen have thought it's better that way, And yet somehow a few of the conquered survived, Their blood runs the redder, though genes have been paled From Los Angeles Country to upstate New York The White race it fattens, while others grow lean Oh, the tricked and evicted they know what I mean, My Country 'tis of thy People you're dying.

The past it just crumbled, the future just threatens Our lifeblood shut up in your chemical tanks And now here you come, bill of sale in your hand And surprise in your eyes that we're lacking in thanks For the blessings of civilization you've brought us The lessons you've taught us The ruin you've wrought us Oh, see what our trust in America's bought us My Country 'tis of thy People you're dying

Now that the pride of the sires receives charity Now that we're harmless and safe behind laws Now that our own chosen way is a novelty Now that even the graves have been robbed Now that my life's to be known as your heritage Hands on our hearts we salute you your victory Choke on your blue, white, and scarlet hypocrisy Pitying the blindness that you've never seen, That the eagles of war whose wings lent you glory They were never no more than carrion crows Drove the wrens from their nest, stole their eggs, changed their story The mockingbird sings it, it's all that she knows And "What can I do" say a powerless few With a lump in your throat and a tear in your eye Can't you see that their poverty's profiting you? My Country 'tis of the People you're dying.

There may be more to the song...that's all I can remember. It struck a nerve in 1965, because no one had ever said these things so blatantly over the public airwaves. Even Native Americans were very shocked, because a WOMAN was saying it. Until Buffy, that simply was not done, period. The women were supposed to keep their mouths shut in the public arena. The part about the smallpox blankets is true. Read about it in "Bury My Heart At Wounded Knee". It wiped out the tribe in question, so the government got the land and relieved themselves of the subsequent expense of running another wretched reservation. Biological warfare in the 1800's. I believe it was this particular revelation that really blew the minds of the government people in Washington. They were not amused, and they decided to shut down Buffy Sainte-Marie. Within the next calendar year every single radio station in the USA and Canada (incredibly!) was approached by very serious men in suits who advised the station heads not to play any records by Buffy Sainte-Marie. Why? She was a dangerous subversive, probably a Communist! Ha, ha. This is akin to saying Bill Clinton is a Muslim Fundamentalist. The radio stations cooperated, even little college stations, amazingly enough. I do not know of any other artist who was blacklisted in so complete a manner. Meanwhile Buffy was winning ecstatic accolades at folk festivals and live events everywhere...but getting utterly no airplay...and she had no idea why. She became eventually quite discouraged about North America, deciding that for some reason she just wasn't marketable there, and transferred her efforts to France, England, Germany, and the Orient, where she got airplay and was hugely successful.

Now is this not utterly shameful? What Buffy said in that song was literally true. What kind of government fears the truth? Remember, the Nazis had book-burning parties. So too did the Communists in Russia and China. This is what dictatorships do. Of course, they didn't kill her...as the Chinese do doubt would have...they just killed her career in North America.

I have met Buffy Sainte-Marie a few times and I know people who have toured with her. She is a very brave and extraordinary woman. She fought in court for several years in the mid-70's to secure a copy of her FBI file (and she has a constitutional right to get that copy, by the way...without the necessity of a lawsuit). When the file was finally surrendered to her it turned out to be somewhat anticlimactic, to say the least. There was no evidence of any subversive or criminal behaviour to be found in the thousands of hours of observation of her activities by the agents she never knew were there observing her. All there was were reports like...on such and such a day Buffy Sainte-Marie played music to an audience in which was observed Mr. X, a known subversive, Miss Y, a Communist sympathiser, and Mr. Z, a homosexual suspected of drug abuse...etc., etc., yadda, yadda, yadda.

For this your taxes are spent. And mine too, apparently, even in Canada.

There is no one on Earth I admire and respect more than Buffy Sainte-Marie. There was once a young man who rode beside Crazy Horse (Tashunka Witko). He died fighting the stinking cavalry in their blue uniforms...the men who fought for a monthly paycheck, while the Lakota warriors fought for their land, for the buffalo, and for the women and children whom those soldiers raped and stuck on bayonets. That young man was named Little Hawk. People die, but the spirit does not, and the time for the wars is over now, because we are all one humanity in one great medicine circle. Now you know my name, and you have your answer.

Thank you for your patience. I am your brother, be assured.

Little Hawk (George Coventry)

Subject: RE: Do you play in a Police State?
From: Thomas the Rhymer
Date: 30 Jul 00 - 10:19 PM

All Power of Heaven and Earth TO YOU, Little Hawk! Your mind runs clear like a silvan spring in summer mountains.

Thank you!

Subject: RE: Do you play in a Police State?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 30 Jul 00 - 10:49 PM

Thank you too, Thomas the Rhymer. I have seen your name before. I hope we can meet at a folk club sometime or a festival. I am mostly in Ontario, Canada. All Power of Heaven and Earth to you too, and to all people. Peace will come.

Subject: RE: Do you play in a Police State?
From: bbelle
Date: 31 Jul 00 - 12:36 AM

little hawk ... please check your Personal Message page. If you aren't familiar with how to do it, go to the top of the forum page and click on Personal Pages.

moonchild

Subject: RE: Do you play in a Police State?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 31 Jul 00 - 01:40 PM

Thanks, Moonchild, will do. I didn't know about that, cos I'm still an amateur at this chatroom stuff or whatever you call it...

Subject: RE: Do you play in a Police State?
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 01 Aug 00 - 06:34 AM

I think this forum aims at being a bit better than a chat room, Little Hawk.*BG* But whatever it is, I'm glad you're in it. I'm ashamed to say I haven't heard, and din't know about that song, though I've read "Bury my heart..." which I believe came much later? First I heard of Buffy, she was heading the line-up at a folk festival in Lincolnshire around 1971 and we all thought "How can someone so unknown be topping such an impressive bill?" Until we heard her, that is.

Subject: RE: Do you play in a Police State?
From: Lox
Date: 02 Aug 00 - 06:14 AM

I didn't have time to read all the responses to this thread, and I went on holiday 2 days after joining the "cafe" so I hope this point isn't redundant, but:

Does anyone have an opinion on the "Prison industrial complex" i.e private prisons that make a profit hand in hand with big companies like "TWA" off the backs of prison labour.

It seems to me that this is an excuse for institutionalized slavery.

Combined with the "three strikes your out" law enforcement policies that exist, (where people can get jail terms of 25 years for nicking a slice of pizza) It could be argued that some of us do live in a police state.

As for what to do about it;- powerful companies only flourish because we buy their products. find out who they are and make a decision to boycott them.

There's nothing wrong with knowing whats going on and sharing your knowledge. Folk music is often about struggle, but it doesn't solve problems, it just explains them in a succinct attention grabbing way.

Knowledge and debate make us strong.

Subject: RE: Do you play in a Police State?
From: Lox
Date: 02 Aug 00 - 06:25 AM

Oh yeah! I forgot!

How did they get away with the Rodney king affair?

And what is "Mumia Abu Jamal" doing on death Row, why isn't he allowed interviews, and why is he being refused access to legal counsel. Could it be because he discovered police corruption, and being a radio journalist ........

You fill in the blanks.

Subject: RE: Do you play in a Police State?
From: InOBU
Date: 02 Aug 00 - 06:38 AM

LOX!
Bravo old skin!
I used the same example of strike breaking and slavery in the private prisons on a friend a few months ago, who just got out of prison. He is a predicate offender, and if he goes up for something minor, he goes away for life. He was "in the park" which means alot on the lower east side, hanging out with the drug crowd. I told him that for generations we all fought together to end american slavery, and it is being restored through the prison system, and that his part of the fight, to not put the slave collar around his neck, was to get out of the old habits, and get straight. I told him he was playing the slave master's game, and the judge who was so stern with him, was laughing at him behind his back. My wife told me the other day, she ran into him, working as a messinger, and trying to get back to his goal of going to Paralegal school. He told her, to tell me that he was avoiding the lower east side, for the reasons I had spoken to him about.
You are very right, I believe, that prisons are a growth industry in this nation. For anyone who wants to see this at work, rent Roger and Me from your vidio store (under documentry most likely).
As to political exicutions and police brutality. I also agree, things are much worce off than most of this country allows itself to acknowelge. Read the rest of the posts when you get the chance Lox, I think you may find them really interesting.
All the best
Larry

Subject: RE: Do you play in a Police State?
From: GUEST,Roger the skiffler
Date: 02 Aug 00 - 11:26 AM

?City of Brotherly Love? (From today's BBC online):
Police in Philadelphia have arrested at least 282 demonstrators during violent protests aimed at disrupting the US Republican Party convention.

At least five police officers have been injured and 10 protesters charged with assault.

Despite unrest on the streets outside, however, the convention's second day went ahead as planned - with American military might the predominant theme.

Delegates were told that the party's presidential candidate, George W Bush, would, if elected, push ahead with America's controversial missile defence programme - despite Russian opposition to the plan and the reluctance of US allies.

"It is time to have a president devoted to a new nuclear strategy and to the deployment of effective missile defences at the earliest possible date," his foreign policy adviser, Condoleezza Rice, said.

Protesters defiant

Some delegates had trouble getting from their hotels to the convention centre.

The protesters linked arms at several intersections in central Philadelphia in an attempt to block traffic.

A police spokeswoman told the BBC that three police officers had been injured when an unidentified liquid was squirted in their eyes.

About 20 police cars and other vehicles were damaged.

Protesters have been claiming victory, accusing police of inciting violence.

"Overall, we feel we successfully accomplished our mission, which was to disrupt business as usual during the Republican convention," said Amadee Braxton of Philadelphia's Black Radical Congress.

Demonstrators have been trying to draw public attention to a range of issues including poverty, homelessness and the death penalty.

The clashes came after three days of largely peaceful protests, but organisers warned they would get more disruptive.

Republican show goes on

Opinion polls show the Mr Bush leading his far more experienced Democrat rival, Vice-President Al Gore, when it comes to being trusted with US security.

Ms Rice and the governor's defeated opponent in the primaries, former Vietnam veteran and current Arizona Senator John McCain, headed the list of Tuesday's speakers.

Ms Rice - who could become the nation's first black national security adviser if Mr Bush is elected - said he would pursue a policy of peace through strength.

Other speakers included former Gulf War General Norman Schwarzkopf, who addressed delegates via a satellite link from the battleship USS New Jersey.

He noted that Wednesday was the 10th anniversary of Iraq's invasion of Kuwait, and said that President Clinton had neglected America's armed forces, casting doubt on their ability to carry out an operation similar to that which drove Iraqi troops from Kuwait.

Supporting minorities

The Republicans opened their convention promising support for America's ethnic minorities.

In the keynote speech, former Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff General Colin Powell said Mr Bush could "help bridge" the country's racial divide.

For the first time, many Americans also had a chance to hear the views of Mr Bush's wife Laura.

She also took up the theme of inclusion, stressing the importance of early learning and childhood development programmes.

The Democrats hold their convention in Los Angeles in two weeks' time.
RtS