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Subject: THE HUNT FOR PRINCESS ROYAL From: Free Reed Date: 11 Sep 00 - 09:10 AM My melodeon is clammering to play Princess Royal, so I¹ve been trawling through databases looking for the tune. Alas, I can only find it presented in its various versions as ASCII files. This would be fine, I¹m sure, if my computer (or myself) could make any sense of ASCII files. I just get a load of code, and neither the melodeon or I are wired for such technicalogical stuff. So I need your help, lovely people. Can anyone direct me to a place from which I can download Princess Royal in proper tadpoles as a gif, jpg or somesuch, which we do understand? Blessings on him or her who can help. FreeReed |
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Subject: RE: THE HUNT FOR PRINCESS ROYAL From: Skipjack K8 Date: 11 Sep 00 - 09:27 AM You only had to ask your good for nothing brother, brother! Try the thin search in http://trillian.mit.edu/~jc/music/abc/FindTune.html and the last blue letter, M is the midi file. Skipjack
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Subject: RE: THE HUNT FOR PRINCESS ROYAL From: Sorcha Date: 11 Sep 00 - 09:31 AM Here (click) is a whole page of choices from JC's Tunefinder.........click on a G for a gif. |
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Subject: RE: THE HUNT FOR PRINCESS ROYAL From: Free Reed Date: 11 Sep 00 - 10:09 AM Overwhelmed! How many versions are there? Thanks brother, and thanks Sorcha. One guess as to what I'll be doing this afternoon instead of getting on with my work. FreeReed |
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Subject: RE: THE HUNT FOR PRINCESS ROYAL From: Helen Date: 11 Sep 00 - 05:35 PM This tune has another name, too doesn't it? Miss McDermott Roe perhaps?? Lovely tune. I heard Alison play it on her new harp on HearMe one day. Helen |
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Subject: RE: THE HUNT FOR PRINCESS ROYAL From: gillymor Date: 11 Sep 00 - 05:52 PM The melody was also used for the song The Arethusa (sp?), I believe. |
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Subject: RE: THE HUNT FOR PRINCESS ROYAL From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 11 Sep 00 - 07:22 PM "How many versions are there?" Lots and lots. And more today then there were yesterday. Lovely tune. I'd nominate it for English National Anthem. |
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Subject: RE: THE HUNT FOR PRINCESS ROYAL From: Mbo Date: 11 Sep 00 - 07:24 PM It's an O' Carolan tune, BTW McGrath, why the English National Anthem? |
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Subject: RE: THE HUNT FOR PRINCESS ROYAL From: dick greenhaus Date: 11 Sep 00 - 07:31 PM There are three (actually two with a variant of one) in DigiTrad. I've usually heard it sung to the first--a variant of Flash Company (or Yellow Handkerchief) |
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Subject: RE: THE HUNT FOR PRINCESS ROYAL From: IanC Date: 12 Sep 00 - 07:40 AM Mbo Is it really O'Carolan? I'd be interested to know more. I know it was already considered to be an old English dance tune when "The Arethusa" was written to it in 1796 and I'm pretty sure that a tune of that name is mentioned in both C15th and C16th sources. What did O'Carolan call it?
Cheers! |
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Subject: RE: THE HUNT FOR PRINCESS ROYAL From: Snuffy Date: 12 Sep 00 - 09:10 AM The Bold Princess Royal songs aren't sung to the "Princess Royal" tune (which is by Carolan), but the Arethusa is one of three songs to this tune. You can find them all on Lesley Nelson's Contemplator website, which I think is in Mudcat Links. There are also over a dozen versions of the tune as a Morris Dance, collected from various English villages. Usually (but not always) in a major key for a set dance (6 men),and in minor for a jig (solo dance). Wassail! V |
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Subject: RE: THE HUNT FOR PRINCESS ROYAL From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 13 Sep 00 - 04:02 AM Well, Waltzing Matilda's an English tune, and that never held back its Australian progress. And there's any number of similar examples
You can't hold down good tunes within national limits. (Or rotten tunes either - that's why the God Save the Queen tune crops up as a national anthem etc in so may countries round the world, including the USA.)
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Subject: RE: THE HUNT FOR PRINCESS ROYAL From: Jacob B Date: 13 Sep 00 - 11:56 PM "Usually (but not always) in a major key for a set dance (6 men),and in minor for a jig (solo dance). Really? The first version I learned was the Abington version, which is in a major key (for a set dance), but I saw somewhere a note that said that the Abington version was the only known major key version. |
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Subject: RE: THE HUNT FOR PRINCESS ROYAL From: Snuffy Date: 14 Sep 00 - 03:06 PM Jacob It's not as clear-cut as I had thought - there seems to be a fair major/minor split in both set dances and jigs. What follows is the result of a trawl through the Morris Ring's "Handbook of Morris Dances"
Set Dances - 4 major, 2 minor Jigs - 5 major, 6 minor/modal But if you count traditions you get an even split: Set Dances - 2 major, 2 minor Jigs - 4 major, 4 minor/modal Wassail! V
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Subject: RE: THE HUNT FOR PRINCESS ROYAL From: GUEST Date: 12 Feb 05 - 07:03 AM I am researching the biography of an old naval captain by the name of John Macgregor Skinner and was wandering if anyone can possibly be of any assistance. After leaving Falmouth on the 12th June 1798, bound for Halifax, when ten days later on the 22nd June, The Princess Royal was attacked in mid Atlantic by a French Privateer. The L'Adventeur. Although there are various versions of the ballad, could this incident have been the basis of the lyrics. Scotty@trinity-lodge.fsnet.co.uk |
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Subject: RE: THE HUNT FOR PRINCESS ROYAL From: Malcolm Douglas Date: 12 Feb 05 - 12:39 PM It seems perfectly possible. There doesn't seem to be any broadside example from before the 1820s (most are later), but that isn't such a very long time. Although I doubt if it could be proved one way or the other, further investigation (including any other ships called Princess Royal that were around at the time, of course) would certainly be interesting. I see from various website references (which I'm sure you know of) that Skinner died in 1832, and that there is a monument to him at Holyhead. |
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Subject: RE: THE HUNT FOR PRINCESS ROYAL From: greg stephens Date: 12 Feb 05 - 05:00 PM There is a confusion arising between the tune Princess Royal and the song Princess Royal. The history of whether the original tune Princess Royal/Arethusa was written by Carolan or not is intriguing. Can anyone give any early citations for the Carolan theory? And, in general, which Princess Royal might we be talking about(which person, Imean, not which tune). And, indeed, why(assuming he did) Carolan would be dedicating a tune to her. I have always found the idea odd, because stylstically a lot of Carolan's attributed tunes hang together, but the Princess Royal(in its many versions) seema to be a bit separate. |
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Subject: RE: THE HUNT FOR PRINCESS ROYAL From: Malcolm Douglas Date: 12 Feb 05 - 08:30 PM Really, we need separate discussions dealing with the unrelated song and tune that (partly) share a name. The Princess Royal tune was attributed to Carolan by O'Farrell, c.1810, and by Bunting (on what grounds I don't know; he noted a version from the harper O'Neill in 1800) in 1840. No reference to any Carolan involvement that pre-dates the 19th century, it seems. Bunting reckoned that the "Princess Royal" was a daughter of Macdermott Roe, but this seems to be anecdotal at best. The tune has appeared as Miss MacDermott, but this appears to be derived from Bunting, so proves nothing in itself. The truth is that we can't say for sure, beyond observing that the attribution is unproven; and that this is a case where people have tended to select evidence to support a proposition they want to be true rather than examining all of it and drawing dispassionate conclusions. The tune was in print in England by c.1730 in Walsh's Compleat Country Dancing-Master, as 'The Princess Royal, the new way'. That, too, doesn't prove anything in itself, but the fact that it was some three-quarters of a century before any attribution to Carolan can be found does explain the circumspection of editors like Moffat, who, while making clear their personal feeling that the tune was Irish, were too scrupulous to claim on the evidence available that it definitely was. Frank Kidson (who Moffat quotes; they were friends and collaborators) was in the opposite camp: his piece from Groves can be seen at Musical Traditions: The Arethusa. See The Fiddler's Companion for extensive précied notes, with the caveat that the sources are not all reliable and the summary sometimes too condensed to tell exactly who said what. In particular, nothing said by the discredited maverick Grattan Flood should be believed unless confirmed by independent sources. The title really doesn't represent any difficulty even if the tune was composed (or adapted; possible antecedents have been proposed) by Carolan or any other Irish musician; it would be anachronistic to imagine that an Irish musician of the time would feel unable to name a piece for a member of the British aristocracy, though plenty of people who ought to know better have made that assumption. One last thing. Princess Royal, the new way implies that there was an "old way", and this may have been the Princess Royal, which appeared in the middle of the previous century. Claude Simpson (The British Broadside Ballad and Its Music, 582-3) gives that tune as printed in c.1662, and mentions that two ballad operas of c.1729 and 1733 specify Princess Royal for songs, but that these don't match the stanza pattern. Perhaps the "new" tune was intended. Without knowing what the stanza pattern actually was, we can't draw conclusions; but such vaguary is typical of the whole argument, which will probably never be resolved. |
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Subject: RE: THE HUNT FOR PRINCESS ROYAL From: greg stephens Date: 13 Feb 05 - 12:19 AM Thanks Malcolm, a masterly summary. |
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Subject: RE: THE HUNT FOR PRINCESS ROYAL From: Hrothgar Date: 13 Feb 05 - 02:50 AM Princess Royal is a bay in Western Australia. |
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Subject: RE: THE HUNT FOR PRINCESS ROYAL From: GUEST,Tobyjug Date: 13 Feb 05 - 07:29 AM In support of part of Malcolm's erudite posting, there is a Morris tune called "Princess Royal". This uses the tune of "The Arathusa", which also appears in a collection of O'Carrolan's work under another name. |
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Subject: RE: Tune Req: Princess Royal From: GUEST,Scoville Date: 03 Mar 07 - 12:16 AM Sorry to resurrect this so much later but someone has asked me to send them some of my dulcimer tab and I find that many of the tunes they requested need to be overhauled badly. I learned "Princess Royal" ten or fifteen years ago as a reel in G major from a concertina player. At the time, he told me he thought it was an O'Carolan composition; someone else mentioned the Canadian ship later, so I've heard both stories. Website on the Arethusa. Is this how the tune normally sounds? (Is this considered to be the O'Carolan version, if it was an O'Carolan piece?) It's partly recognizable but quite different from the concertina player's version, which sounds more line the one on this CD, except that I learned it with the B part repeated (the B part is 12 bars). I hate to write up a piece of tab with muddled information but I guess I'll put in what I can and say that the origins are ambiguous. Nevertheless, does anyone have any more thoughts? |
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Subject: RE: Tune Req: Princess Royal From: Helen Date: 03 Mar 07 - 01:19 AM Scoville, At the same site you linked to you can hear the one attributed to O'Carolan: Miss MacDermott (Princess Royal) The related info is here: Miss MacDermott (Princess Royal) - info There is a link to an image file of the music notation there too. I have not heard the tune played as fast as this midi, and it has a lilting sound when played more slowly which gives it a different feel altogether, but I believe it likely that this is the version from a book published by Ossian Publications and which has a very, very long title: Anon. (1984). Complete Collection of the Much Admired Old Irish Tunes: The Original and Genuine Compositions of Carolan the Celebrated Harper and Composer (1670-1738). Iona Green, Cork, Ireland: Ossian Publications, 21 Iona green, Cork, Ireland. Helen |
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Subject: RE: Tune Req: Princess Royal From: Mooh Date: 03 Mar 07 - 07:54 AM Easily one of my favourite Irish tunes, the Turlough O'Carolan tune Princess Royal appears in Mel Bay's Celtic Encyclopedia Mandolin Edition, in G minor, in both standard notation and tab. Among those who have recorded it is Simon Mayor, the English mandolinist. Peace, Mooh. |
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Subject: RE: Tune Req: Princess Royal From: Scoville Date: 03 Mar 07 - 01:04 PM Thanks--I missed that. I learned it about that fast and with a noticeable lilt (well, for a reel), but in G major, which gives it another feel completely--much less "Medieval" in sound (yes, I know it's not medieval, but you know what I mean)--but makes for one of those "addictive" tunes. And it's a great dulcimer tune. |
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Subject: RE: Tune Req: Princess Royal From: pavane Date: 12 Sep 08 - 04:22 AM In the Bodleian collection, there is a song from around 1660 of which one verse is specified as being to the tune Princess Royal. I haven't tried to match the text to the tune we know, but it looks as if it MIGHT be possible. This could prove or disprove some of the other speculations on origins. The Noble Prodigy |
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Subject: RE: Tune Req: Princess Royal From: GUEST,leeneia Date: 12 Sep 08 - 08:57 AM The musical piece "The Princess Royal" which I know is a pleasant, marchy tune with a Baroque feel. It doesn't sound like a Carolan tune to me. There was a Princess Royal born in 1766, Augusta, the daughter of George III. I vote that the march was for her. |
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Subject: RE: Tune Req: Princess Royal From: pavane Date: 12 Sep 08 - 11:29 AM So how was the name of the tune known in 1660? |
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Subject: RE: Tune Req: Princess Royal From: GUEST,Richard Date: 12 Sep 08 - 12:20 PM It is also worth remembering that O'Carolan borrowed existing tunes to fit his own words, as is the case with "Sid beag sid mor", which has subsequently been attributed to him. Sorry, I can't remember what that one was originally called. Richard |
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Subject: RE: Tune Req: Princess Royal From: GUEST,leeneia. Date: 12 Sep 08 - 05:39 PM Oops. Make that Charlotte Augusta Matilda. |
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Subject: RE: Tune Req: Princess Royal From: Mr Happy Date: 07 Mar 10 - 12:38 PM This is the version I'm familiar with http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_UCa1JfxPCw but searching JC's, I couldn't find a version. Anyone point me to dots, please? |
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Subject: RE: Tune Req: Princess Royal From: Bernard Date: 07 Mar 10 - 12:52 PM There are many variants of the tune, but that one is a Fieldtown version popularised by 'Morris On', and mostly performed as a solo Jig... here's the ABC: X: 1 T:Princess Royal, Morris On M:4/4 L:1/8 A:Fieldtown P:AAB(CB)2 K:G P:A dc|B2A2 G2dc|B2A2 G2d2 |e2c2 cdec|d2c2 B3d| c2B2 A2G2|FGAF D2dc|BABG A2F2|G6 ||! P:B d2|e3d e2d2|e2f2 g3f|g2f2e2d2|BAG2 A2BA|G2G2 A4|BAG2g3f|g2d2 e4|d2B2c3d| c2B2A2G2|FGAF D2dc|B2AG A2F2|G4 ||! P:C d2c2|B4A4| G4d2c2|B4A4| G4d4 |e4c4| c2d2e2c2|d4c4| (B6B)d| c2B2 A2G2|FGAF D2dc|BABG A2F2|G4 G2 || |
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Subject: RE: Tune Req: Princess Royal From: MGM·Lion Date: 07 Mar 10 - 10:32 PM On one of the Dransfields' early vinyl records ~ I think it was Lord Of All I Behold ~ I recall their playing two different versions, to follow Barry's singing of Bold Nelson's Praise, which is another song which uses a variant of this tune. |
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Subject: RE: Tune Req: Princess Royal From: Mr Happy Date: 08 Mar 10 - 09:12 AM Bernard, Thanks a lot! I got the dots from folkinfo's ABC converter, cheers! |
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Subject: RE: Tune Req: Princess Royal From: Mr Happy Date: 09 Mar 10 - 06:17 AM Just researching related tune, Miss McDermot. The files on JC's midis reveal it as almost identical to Princess Royal but in what sounds like a minor key, even though its labelled as Gmajor. Here's a link to the midi in question,http://trillian.mit.edu/~jc/cgi/abc/tuneget?F=MIDI&U=http://www.novosaires.com/Partituras%20y%20midis/abc/p-q.abc&X=13643&T=MISS it also sounds like another [unnamed] tune I've heard in sessions, anyone know? |
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Subject: RE: Tune Req: Princess Royal From: Mr Happy Date: 09 Mar 10 - 07:04 AM Here 'tis on YTube - Miss MacDermott - it sounds much more like one've Carolan's greatest hits than does Princess Royal http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ItAS_fEjPcE |
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Subject: RE: Tune Req: Princess Royal From: GUEST,tealeaf Date: 09 Mar 10 - 07:42 AM Yes a fine tune indeed, I also nominate it for the English National Anthem. |
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Subject: RE: Tune Req: Princess Royal From: bubblyrat Date: 09 Mar 10 - 03:37 PM It is either ; Turlough O'Carolan (if you want to use his full name ), or just Carolan,(without the " O'") if only using his surname. Something to do with the niceties and conventions of Erse, apparently . No, I don't understand either, but there it is. As to the subject matter ; I see no reason why Carolan should NOT have written a piece in honour of a Princess Royal,who could have existed anywhere,at any time,and does not have to have been English-----far from it. If it was written as a" tribute", does this make it a "Pleraca", like that written for Fanni Ni Poer, I wonder ?? Up until today,I thought it WAS English,but in a way I am pleased to discover that it might not be !! |
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Subject: RE: Tune Req: Princess Royal From: GUEST,leeneia Date: 09 Mar 10 - 04:55 PM I have an interesting version of this piece, and I have sent two versions in for posting. One is simply the melody, the other is fleshed out for a small ensemble. This version was played by the Welsh harper Thomas David Llewelyn (1828-1879.) Robin Huw Bowen, a present-day Welsh harper, found it in the National Library of Wales and published it in his 'Llewelyn Alaw Pocket Tune Book." The A part is like the versions I have found on the web, but the B part is quite different and quite enjoyable. I have changed the key from B flat to C take make it more playable for a typical folk group. The Welsh title is 'Y Dywysoges Frenhinol.' What do you do if you want to play fancy version? You get some music software and download my file into My Documents. Then you open it with your music software and print it. |
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Subject: RE: Tune Req: Princess Royal From: Joe Offer Date: 10 Mar 10 - 02:55 AM Here are two MIDI versions from Leeneia: Click to play (piano)Click to play (tootler) |
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Subject: RE: Tune Req: Princess Royal From: GUEST,leeneia Date: 10 Mar 10 - 08:19 AM Thanks, Joe. When I left-clicked on those MIDI's, my computer lied to me about 'not enough memory.' So I right-clicked and opened the file. Suddenly it had enough memory! Other people might need to try that method. |
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Subject: RE: Tune Req: Princess Royal From: Jack Campin Date: 10 Mar 10 - 08:39 AM There is some weirdness about the way Mudcat serves MIDI files - probably in the wrapper stuff that tells the receiving computer what to do with the file. They usually don't immediately play in the browser itself, though this browser is quite capable of playing MIDIs on other sites. (It's a bit reassuring to know they act weird on Windows machines too). I've always had to save them and then play them through a player application. That player application can be the browser itself, if I drag the file icon onto the running-applications menu. It's the launching process that doesn't work. |
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Subject: RE: Tune Req: Princess Royal From: Jim McLean Date: 10 Mar 10 - 01:19 PM I've just noticed McGrath of Harlow's posting that Waltzing Matilda is an English tune. If he means the melody set to Robert Tannahill's Bonnie Woods of Craigilea, it was written by a fellow Scot James Barr. |
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Subject: RE: Tune Req: Princess Royal From: Fidjit Date: 10 Mar 10 - 02:15 PM It was the tune of the month on Melodeon.net for December 2009 Here's lots of different versions to confuse you. TOTM on Mel.net December 2009 Chas |
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Subject: RE: Tune Req: Princess Royal From: GUEST,leeneia Date: 10 Mar 10 - 07:19 PM Thanks for the explanation, Jack. I was getting worried that there was something wrong with my computer. |
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Subject: RE: Tune Req: Princess Royal From: bubblyrat Date: 21 Mar 10 - 10:30 AM Melodeon-player,folkie,sailor and noted author Captain Bob Roberts, offers the following in his excellent work,"A Slice Of Suffolk" ;- Pin Mill,when it was inhabited mainly by bargemen and fishermen,and yachtsmen were a rarity,used to have one old favourite called the "Princess Royal". This is a song about a ship which once served as a packet-boat between Harwich and Flushing.She is shown in an old panoramic print of Harwich Harbour,or Orwell Haven as it was called then.When her packet-boat days were ended,this fast little vessel went away on a voyage to Newfoundland and the song tells of how a pirate tried to stop her but found that he could not catch up with her. "They chased us to windward All night and all day They chased us to leeward But made no headway ; They fired shots after us But none could prevail And the bold Princess Royal Soon showed 'em her tail . " ..........the old Pin Mill version ,which was sung to a tune almost,but not quite, the same as another local favourite " The Yellow Handkerchief ". |
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Subject: RE: Tune Req: Princess Royal From: Phil Edwards Date: 21 Mar 10 - 12:30 PM Is there any other tune that's been used for songs about both Nelson and Napoleon? |
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Subject: RE: Tune Req: Princess Royal From: Richard Mellish Date: 21 Mar 10 - 06:52 PM Like Jack, I found I had to save the Midi file then open it in a suitable application: in my case Sibelius, which then displays the notation as well as allowing it to be played. To my ear, the first (multi-part) setting from the "Click to play (piano)" link has the bar (measure, for the Americans) lines in the wrong places, but that may be because a Midi file doesn't identify bars ((does it? I don't know) and Sibelius assumes that the first note in the Midi file is the first note of a bar. More oddly, the other one starts with the bar lines in (what sound to me as) the right places, then they go wrong somewhere about bars 19 to 21. Without seeing the notation it might be less clear what's happening, but the rhythm does seem to go awry around there. I think an extra beat must have crept in. Richard |
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Subject: RE: Tune Req: Princess Royal From: GUEST Date: 21 Mar 10 - 07:37 PM I have found that if you import a midi file into a notation editor, they generally will treat the first note as the first note of the first bar because midi doesn't flag up upbeats. This means you usually have to tell your notation editor in some way that there is an upbeat and tell it to adjust the bar lines accordingly. One way to do this is to pad the beginning of the first bar with rests. I use Noteworthy and that has a function called "Audit Bar Lines" which will make the appropriate adjustment. You can end up with messy notation though, because of the bar lines initially being in the wrong place and notes then straddling bar lines. When the bar lines are adjusted you are often left with pairs of tied notes where a longer note of equivalent total value would be correct. Midi files are able to store the time signature, (and bar lines) but if the creator of the original file forgets to add a time signature, then most notation editors will default to 4/4. The same is true of key signatures, midi files can store them, but if they are left out the default is Cmaj with all sharps/flats displayed as accidentals. I often find the best thing is to pad the first bar with rests, insert time and key signatures if necessary and then export the file back to midi and re-import it. That usually sorts things out. |
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Subject: RE: Tune Req: Princess Royal From: GUEST,leeneia Date: 21 Mar 10 - 09:31 PM I see that I put a repeat sign in the wrong place when I saved that MIDI, so I will send Joe a corrected version of the melody. The piece starts with a pick-up consisting of two eighth-notes, and they were wrongly repeated on the second A part. Bubblyrat, it had never occurred to me that the Princess Royal might have been a boat, not a person. Thanks for the insight. It makes sense. Next somebody will tell me it's about a hotel. :) |
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