Help: Copyright: Black is the Colour

Subject: Copyright: Black is the Colour
From: NEIL COMER
Date: 16 Nov 00 - 01:38 PM

Could anyone tell me of the LEGAL copyright status of the song Black is the Colour as I have been asked by a band that wish to record it

Subject: RE: Help: Copyright: Black is the Colour
From: MMario
Date: 16 Nov 00 - 02:00 PM

it is attributed to John Jacob Niles - so should become public domain somewhere around 2055

Subject: RE: Help: Copyright: Black is the Colour
From: NEIL COMER
Date: 16 Nov 00 - 05:21 PM

Is this the same Black is the Colour as sung by Christy Moore?

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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kzhicxPANRo

Subject: RE: Help: Copyright: Black is the Colour
From: Wolfgang
Date: 17 Nov 00 - 04:18 AM

yes, it is: look this site (read especially the first note below the song) to find that Niles may not be the writer of this song but only an arranger of a trad song.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: Help: Copyright: Black is the Colour
From: NEIL COMER
Date: 17 Nov 00 - 02:22 PM

How do I get permission to record this song?

Subject: RE: Help: Copyright: Black is the Colour
From: GUEST,Dita
Date: 17 Nov 00 - 08:58 PM

As I understand it, there is no requirement for permission to record any song after it's initial recording. Permission is only required for the first recording of any written song after that the writer has no control over subsequent recordings. It is always nice to be asked, but the writer cannot withhold permission, he/she might not be happy but has to live with it.
If you are issuing the record via a record conpany then they will take care of any copyright i.e. PRS etc. They fill in the relevent forms and send them off to the relevent royalty collecting bodies, get back publishing details, and make the required payments.
Hope this helps, Neil,
love, john.

Subject: RE: Help: Copyright: Black is the Colour
From: GUEST,Jordi
Date: 17 Feb 07 - 10:47 PM

Go ahead and record it.....I first heard it in Dublin in 2001 sung by Celtic Dream in the Celt Bar. They told me of Christy Moore's version and I've been fascinated by it ever since. Everyone and anyone has all ready recorded it some better than others even Nina Simone and The Corrs....

I won't mention that the Paul Weller version suck ooops! already did...

www.blackisthecolour.bravehost.com

Trying to find out if this song goes further back than John Jacob Niles as some friends seem to imply. But its very difficult to get correct informations as there are so many variants.

Here's the new website address www.blackisthecolour.com

Subject: RE: Help: Copyright: Black is the Colour
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 17 Feb 07 - 11:49 PM

Gone over before in the threads linked at the top. Read them, but remember that many posts contain mis-information. A Niles composition, although he claimed that he collected it.
Everybody and their pet guinea pig has recorded it; no original copyright seems to have been honored.
When he said it was trad, the door was open.

Subject: RE: Help: Copyright: Black is the Colour
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 18 Feb 07 - 04:11 AM

It may well depend on the jurisdiction.

If the song itself (words = literary work, tune = musical work) were both traditional (in the usual sense of the word) then they themselves are not protected by copyright (although UK law contains provisions dealing with works of unknown authorship that are or maybe still in copyright).

However if Niles (or anyone else) then arranged the work he would have gained (in Berne Convention countries, which the USA was not, at that stage) a copyright in his arrangement(s). Only in the USA and in any places basing their approach to copyright on that of the USA (which might have included some Universal Copyright Convention countries and Pan-American Copyright Convention countries) would registration or the use of a copyright symbol have been of relevance.

The Berne Convention, that the USA has since joined, and that is usually retrospective in effect, prohibits a requirement of the observance of formalities for copyright to arise, and IMHO that trumps its other provisions that member states may provide for works to be bereft of copyright if their term in their coutry of origin has expired (a provision that the UK did not impliment until 1988, and then not with respect to any coypright the term of which was already running).

Therefore subject to what I say below if you substantially reproduce either Niles arrangement, in the absence of an effective permission, that would be an infringment. If however you reproduce the traditional words and music without the Niles arrangement(s) tha tcould not be infringment.

If Niles wrote the work then the same applies as to subsistence, but plainly there will be no possibility of freely using the public domain source, for there is no public domain source.

Then we come to the tricky bit. In theory copyright can be waived. This is sometimes called "dedication into the public domain" or "dedication".   It is well known for example that Ghandi (speaking with a distinct lack of accuracy for a lawyer, which he was, a lawyer who had practised in South Africa (Roman-Dutch law, largely) and India (English law largely, and, I think although I am not sure, England) said "I have never copyrighted anything". But the Navajivan Trust now routinely asserts copyright in his works, and no-one AFAIK has successfully challenged such copyrights on the basis of those words. Once when I was acting for a producer who was being threatened by the trust I wanted to run the dedication argument, but the producer, who was a great admirer of Ghandi's work, refused to let me, since if I succeeded with the argument it would destroy the basis of a large part of the revenue of the trust and so undermine Ghandi's work.

So I know of no precedent to determine the clarity that is necessary for an effective dedication, and in principle every jurisdiction may set its own test. So whatever would otherwise be copyright might or might not have been placed in the public domain in any particular jurisdiction.

Similarly, not all jurisdictions have compulsory licensing once a record reproducing a work has been released.

If you are in the UK, in practice ring the MCPS and see if they will grant permission. If so you are covered.

Subject: RE: Help: Copyright: Black is the Colour
From: Andy Jackson
Date: 18 Feb 07 - 03:29 PM

Well sorted Richard. The last sentence is the easiest way though, give MCPS a ring and ask for the very helpful guy who looks after the folk stuff. I can't remember his name at the mo. but he is extremely helpful.

Andy (Also Forest Tracks.)

Subject: RE: Help: Copyright: Black is the Colour
From: GUEST,Louise in Lex
Date: 18 Feb 07 - 03:51 PM

John Jacob Niles was a personal friend who lived on Boone Creek in Clark County, Kentucky. He was a very interesting fellow - he was born in Louisville, KY and he flew in the Lafayette Escadrille in WWI where he was shot down and wounded. He returned to Louisvile, and started out his musical career by travelling around Kentucky "collecting" folksongs when that was a popular endeavor and "polishing" them up and holding them out to the scholars as "collected works." They were accepted as such by academia and Mr. Niles performed these songs, many of which were more like art songs and quite suited to his unique vocal range (and also quite difficult for others to sing if they didn't have much range).

Everything was going fine until Burl Ives tried to record one of Mr. Niles' songs attributing it to the public domain - I don't remember which one but it may have been Black is the Color. Mr. Niles took great exception to this and in the end, had to come clean that he indeed had not "collected" the song but had instead, written it. This of course, besmirched his reputation with the scholarly community as a collector of folk music and all of the other songs he had allegedly "collected" were suspect.   I believe in truth, he collected a small piece of the melody for Black is the Color - mainly the 3 notes used on Black, black, black - and he composed the rest of that song. He never liked Burl Ives much after that and never had much kind to say about him;-)

I remember the first time I met Mr. Niles. He looked at me (I had very long hair then) and said in his most intimidating voice, "Girl . . . . you can't be a folksinger. . . you're wearing shoes!!!!"

His publisher for years was G. Shirmer.

Louise in Lex

Subject: RE: Help: Copyright: Black is the Colour
From: GUEST,Aindre
Date: 23 Aug 22 - 04:27 PM

Like so many - I'm trying to find if this is Copyrighted material Fellow Irishman Christy Moore made the best version of this immensely beautiful song. I'm hoping that I can release it myself alongside some Celtic songs, I'm covering and have written myself. Anyone know definitively please?
Here is a draft of my arrangement - Just me and my wee Ukulele
https://www.facebook.com/1425160972/videos/430487272505202/

Subject: RE: Help: Copyright: Black is the Colour
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 23 Aug 22 - 06:58 PM

Cleaned up that link for you.

Did you read the thread above? It is attributed to Niles who claimed it was collected then later admitted he wrote it. He didn't assert copyright.

Subject: RE: Help: Copyright: Black is the Colour
From: leeneia
Date: 24 Aug 22 - 03:55 AM

"Black is the Color" is a traditional Appalachian folk song of Scottish origin. The original tune of "Black is the Color" was collected by English composer and folk song archivist Cecil Sharp. The tune that is best known today is that assigned to the traditional lyrics by John Jacob Niles. He describes how he came about to write this tune:
"'Black is The Color of My True Love's Hair'...was composed between 1916 and 1921. I had come home from eastern Kentucky, singing this song to an entirely different tune--a tune not unlike the public-domain material employed even today. My father liked the lyrics, but thought the tune was downright terrible. So I wrote myself a new tune, ending it in a nice modal manner. My composition has since been 'discovered' by many an aspiring folk-singer."
========
Okay. The important part of all that palaver is that Niles wrote his version between 1916 and 1921.

The Public Domain info site says "Any Song or Musical Work Published in 1926 or Earlier is in the Public Domain in the USA." I believe this gives a definite answer. The song is now PD.

Subject: RE: Help: Copyright: Black is the Colour
From: GUEST,meself
Date: 24 Aug 22 - 11:00 AM

It may seem picky, but we are talking legalities, after all - Niles does not say when he 'published' his version, which is a different matter from when he composed it .....

Subject: RE: Help: Copyright: Black is the Colour
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 24 Aug 22 - 12:07 PM

In the introduction to 'the ballad book of JJN'he wrote, about his oldest notebook:


'[..]these pages are the ones showing the original development of"Go away from my window" and "black is the colour" which my publisher G.Schirmer, Inc, and I have used to establish the validity of my claim to their composition and copyright '

Subject: RE: Help: Copyright: Black is the Colour
From: GUEST,jim bainbridge
Date: 24 Aug 22 - 02:54 PM

I'm pretty sure Christy got it from Hamish Imlach

Subject: RE: Help: Copyright: Black is the Colour
From: leeneia
Date: 26 Aug 22 - 01:50 PM

Meself, you are right. If he published his original tune in 1941, it's probably still copyrighted.

I have written a new tune which I will not copyright and the heck with John Jacob Niles.

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Click to play (joeweb)

Subject: RE: Help: Copyright: Black is the Colour
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 26 Aug 22 - 02:44 PM

Willie Clancy brought the air back from some festival in Eastern Europe where he learned it from an American singer whose name I can't think of right now (somewhere online Jean Ritchie was mentioned but it was someone else). Seán 'ac Donncha chased up the words and put them to Willie's air. Joe Heaney in turn learned it from Seán.
Christy Moore did indeed get his version from Hamish Imlach and one piper quotes Nina Simone as an influence on his version of the air.
That's some of the story of things in Ireland. Niles doesn't get a look in at this stage.

Subject: RE: Help: Copyright: Black is the Colour
From: GUEST,Nac Mac Feagle
Date: 26 Aug 22 - 06:07 PM

Arrived in Ireland, and "went it's own way" :
https://youtu.be/NXmzs5o1UV8

Subject: RE: Help: Copyright: Black is the Colour
From: leeneia
Date: 02 Sep 22 - 01:06 PM

Anyone wo wants to perform or record a version of "Black is the Color" is welcome to go to my thread called "I folk process Black is the Color" and see if they like my new version. More details there.

It took longer than you might think to write down a new tune and tidy up the lyrics to tell a coherent story, but I don't expect society to keep track of a copyright for decades because I spent four hours having fun.

Subject: RE: Help: Copyright: Black is the Colour
From: leeneia
Date: 02 Sep 22 - 01:13 PM

Peter Laban, is this the tune Willie Clancy brought back to Ireland?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eXnNB-69epY

Subject: RE: Help: Copyright: Black is the Colour
From: Joe Offer
Date: 02 Sep 22 - 01:18 PM

Here's the John Jacob Niles recording. It's very different from the melody Christy Moore uses. I much prefer the plainer melody used by Christy Moore.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h_yA5l9Vghg

Here is the Traditional Ballad Index entry on the song.

Black Is the Color

DESCRIPTION: "(Black, black,) black is the color of my true love's hair...." The singer describes the beautiful girl he is in love with. (He regretfully concedes that they will never be married)
AUTHOR: unknown (see NOTES)
EARLIEST DATE: 1916 (Cecil Sharp collection)
KEYWORDS: love courting hair beauty separation nonballad
FOUND IN: US(Ap,SE,So)
REFERENCES (10 citations):
Lomax/Lomax-FolkSongUSA 16, "Black Is the Color" (1 text, 1 tune)
Lomax- FSNA 100, "Black Is the Color" (1 text, 1 tune)
Ritchie-FolkSongsOfTheSouthernAppalachians, p. 88, "Black is the Color" (1 text, 1 tune, with several floating lines including some that appear to be from "Lady Mary Anne" or something related)
Sharp-EnglishFolkSongsFromSouthernAppalachians 85, "Black is the Colour" (1 text, 1 tune)
Sharp/Karpeles-EightyEnglishFolkSongs 41, "Black is the Colour" (1 text, 1 tune)
Burton/Manning-EastTennesseeStateCollectionVol1, p. 107, "Black Is the Color of My True Love's Hair" (1 text, 1 tune)
Darling-NewAmericanSongster, pp. 267-268, "Black is the Color" (1 text)
Silber/Silber-FolksingersWordbook, p. 145, "Black Is The Color" (1 text)
SongsOfAllTime, p.17, "Black Is the Color" (1 text, 1 tune)
DT, BLACKCOL* BLACKCO2*
Roud #3103
RECORDINGS:
Dellie Norton, "Black is the Colour" (on OldTrad1, FsrMtns4)
Pete Seeger, "Black is the Color" (on PeteSeeger18)
NOTES [54 words]: John Jacob Niles, who is largely responsible for popularizing this song, also claims to have written it. For a recently composed song, however, it exists in unusually diverse and widespread forms. Randolph notes connections with English pieces, and Lomax correctly observes that the tune resembles "Fair and Tender Ladies." - RBW
Last updated in version 6.3
File: LxU016

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The Ballad Index Copyright 2022 by Robert B. Waltz and David G. Engle.

I think we can reasonably conclude that the song is in the public domain, although Niles's operatic melody may be under copyright. See our DTStudy thread for various versions of the song.

Subject: RE: Help: Copyright: Black is the Colour
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 02 Sep 22 - 01:29 PM

Willie Clancy : Black is the colour...

Subject: RE: Help: Copyright: Black is the Colour
From: leeneia
Date: 04 Sep 22 - 01:54 PM

It isn't true that Niles claimed he wrote it. Niles only claims to have written the tune that Joe links at the top of his recent post. Niles did not write the lyrics.

If it's inconvenient that the Niles' tune seems to be copyrighted, write yourself a new tune.

Subject: RE: Help: Copyright: Black is the Colour
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 05 Sep 22 - 07:26 AM

Let me just add this one:

Black black black - Cran