Dec 7th is 59th Anniversary

Subject: Dec 7th is 59th Anniversary
From: JedMarum
Date: 07 Dec 00 - 09:21 AM

It was 59 years ago today, that the USA was attacked at Pearl Harbor and thus brought into World War II.

Subject: RE: Dec 7th is 59th Anniversary
From: Irish sergeant
Date: 07 Dec 00 - 09:36 AM

I would hope all Americans would take a moment to reflect on the sacrifices made that day and in the subsequent years of the Second World War and offer a prayer for those brave men both living and dead who gave so much for our country in those most perilous of times. Kindest reguards, Neil

Subject: RE: Dec 7th is 59th Anniversary
From: Troll
Date: 07 Dec 00 - 09:38 AM

As President Roosevelt said, " A day which will live in infamy."

troll

Subject: RE: Dec 7th is 59th Anniversary
From: Allan C.
Date: 07 Dec 00 - 10:14 AM

As I have mentioned in previous threads, I have a Pearl Harbor survivor sitting here with me. Mom has quite a few tales to tell about that day and the days which followed. She talks about how two very long weeks passed before she learned that Dad had made it out of the harbor alive. She remembers how the island's governer invited the American military wives to eat some of what little food was available in the relative safety of the governer's estate. She tells of her fears which were increased when a couple of Japanese mini-subs were discovered. She has so many stories of those days. Dad didn't ever talk much about it all. I have learned that the ship which was moored next to his was bombed. The movements of Dad's ship (once it got out of the harbor) were much the same as are described in the John Wayne movie, "In Harm's Way".

Subject: RE: Dec 7th is 59th Anniversary
From: Wesley S
Date: 07 Dec 00 - 10:54 AM

There is supposed to be a big budget film called "Pearl" coming out next summer. Lets hope they stick to the facts. The truth will be interesting enough.

Subject: RE: Dec 7th is 59th Anniversary
From: Mrrzy
Date: 07 Dec 00 - 11:00 AM

Yes, I was thinking of this this morning, and tried to explain Infamy to my twins. I still think of this war as "My War" since it so strongly affected my family (Mom's an Auschwitz survivor, Dad was a conscientious objector and you wouldn't believe what the government did to them) - although with my age I ought to be more involved in the Vietnam war, I can't "relate" to it - I was out of the States at the time, and it really touched no one I knew. But I remember today as the day that my parents started to be saved from the tortures they were undergoing.

Alan C, I'd love to meet your Mom!

Subject: RE: Dec 7th is 59th Anniversary
From: catspaw49
Date: 07 Dec 00 - 11:08 AM

Some dates are locked in our minds even though we may not have been alive.....and this is one. August 6 is another. I find it appalling and very sad that most of the schools no longer affix the importance to today that was there in my childhood. Perhaps it is time, perhaps it is for better world community, perhaps for whatever. It should not be so. An entire generation put their lives on hold or lost them altogether......people doing what they believed and doing what they felt had to be done.

Some historians argue that wars are essntial to progress. The world came away from WWII a different and changed place and it was a signal event in world history. Let's not let our children forget what their grandparents did and with the spirit they did it.

Spaw

Subject: RE: Dec 7th is 59th Anniversary
From: Robby
Date: 07 Dec 00 - 11:09 AM

One of my uncles fought in the "Bulge", and my late father-in-law went ashore with the Big Red 1 at Omaha Beach. Two uncles fought in Korea and a brother in Vietnam. We were fortunate. They all returned, as did my father-in-law's three brothers.

If we don't take the time to remember all that they sacrificed and all that they did, our children and grandchildren will be repeating their efforts.

Subject: RE: Dec 7th is 59th Anniversary
From: Naemanson
Date: 07 Dec 00 - 11:22 AM

Spaw wrote - "I find it appalling and very sad that most of the schools no longer affix the importance to today that was there in my childhood."

I can agree with the sentiment but there is the consideration of relevancy. For today's youth WWII is as much ancient history as the Civil War and Viet Nam. And, as we all know, if you haven't had to fight for your freedom you don't hold it in that special esteem that the rest of us do.

BTW, "fighting for our freedom" is not restricted to military action. In my mind and world that term encompasses civil rights, conscientious objectors, and anyone else who stands up for the rights of the common folk.

Subject: RE: Dec 7th is 59th Anniversary
From: Troll
Date: 07 Dec 00 - 11:36 AM

My father was in Merrills Mauraders in Burma. The things he saw there stayed with him all his life. He went to his grave hating the Japanese.
Two of moms brothers were in Europe; one as a gunner on a B-17, the other as an infantryman. At Omaha Beach, the landing craft he was in stopped too soon. He was the only survivor of his platoon as he was the only one that could swim. Alcohol was the only way he could muffle their cries and he died of drink in '58.
Dad stayed in and went through Korea and Viet Nam as did my brother and I.
It bugs the hell out of me that the sacrifices made by the nation from '42 to '45 are now largely ignored.

troll

Subject: RE: Dec 7th is 59th Anniversary
From: GUEST,Matt_R
Date: 07 Dec 00 - 12:05 PM

Don't worry, Troll--I remember. I am a huge buff of the Pacific theatre of WWII. From Pearl to Operation Shoestring to the Owen Stanleys to the Turkey Shoot to Leyte to Sugarloaf Hill.

I love reading the experiences of the individual people fighting in the Pacific, and will often ramble about them to anyone who will listen. The Pitcher, The Bulldozer Man, The Stinger...

Subject: RE: Dec 7th is 59th Anniversary
From: Jimmy C
Date: 07 Dec 00 - 12:22 PM

I also remember and thank those men and women with all my heart. I am not an american and I was only 1 month old when Pearl Harbour was bombed. I do remember my father praising the americans for coming over to Europe, he always said if they hadn't arrived we may still be fighting. My father's 2nd cousin from New Jersey ( Camden) was a rear gunner on an aircraft that was shot down about 2 weeks before the war ended. He always regretted not having the opportunity to meet him.

Subject: RE: Dec 7th is 59th Anniversary
From: GeorgeH
Date: 07 Dec 00 - 12:24 PM

Naemanson, I agree with much of what you say, (about aspects of "fighting for freedom", but not about the relevancy of WW II. Without it, it's certain that the "free world" would not exists as we currently know it; and IMO it's highly probable that that many of us would be far worse off . . (highly imperfect as today's world is)

All the kids I've ever known can appreciate the relevance of WW-II; we owe it to humanity to continue to give them the opportunity to do so. WW-II is that all too rare example of a necessary war . .

However, do remember that we Brits suffered a little in that war, too.

G.

Subject: RE: Dec 7th is 59th Anniversary
From: catspaw49
Date: 07 Dec 00 - 12:34 PM

You're right Naes, and that is also what I meant. I agree that fighting for freedom comes in many guises.

It is true that WWII however, unlike many wars before or since was of great importance to the formation of the world society we now see. That's why I called it a "signal" event. Like our Civil War in the development of this country, WWII stands out in much the same way in the development of the world. And although politics palyed a significant part as it tends to do in all wars, the political element was less in WWII and the issues defined better in blacks and whites, unlike say, VietNam where gray ruled the spectrum.

Spaw

Subject: RE: Dec 7th is 59th Anniversary
From: GUEST,LEJ
Date: 07 Dec 00 - 01:28 PM

I'm thinking of my Mom and Dad today,both gone now.I can remember a pin Mom would always wear on December 7th,"Remember (a real pearl affixed here) Harbor." My Dad was one of the guys who went to the enlistment office on December 8th to join the Marines.He was rejected because of a genetic shoulder problem.Lucky him.Most of his friends who made the cut were killed on Tarawa,Guadalcanal,and other islands in the distant Pacific.He instead joined the Army,and went to England landing on D-Day plus 2,part of a Railroad Repair Batallion that followed front line troops,repairing the tracks that the Germans had destroyed on their retreat.He contracted pneumonia sleeping in the snow during the Battle of the Bulge,and it caused long-term lung problems that affected him the rest of his life.He stood on a hill near St Lo France,and watched a regiment of US Rangers enter the town on reconnaissance,then watched as an American bomber group mistakenly levelled the town before they could be called off.He lost his best friend as they walked along a French road next to moving trucks,when his friends rifle sling snagged a hook on a truck-bed,sweeping him under the wheels.

Ancient history.

Subject: RE: Dec 7th is 59th Anniversary
From: GUEST,Sarah
Date: 07 Dec 00 - 01:29 PM

My father served in the USMC during World War II. He was on the beach at Iwo and on Tarawa and served as part of the occupying forces in what remained of Hiroshima afterwards, until he was sent back to Hawaii to serve with JAG. (He was a practicing attorney when the attack on Pearl Harbor happened, but he enlisted in the USMC as a private and insisted on going through boot camp. They sent him to Officer Training immediately after, of course, but he felt he had the advantage of knowing what his men went through; consequently, he led from the front, not the back of the lines.)

He didn't speak about the war much, almost not at all until he was almost 80, a few years before he died. He just didn't want to relive it. War sickened him, and I suspect he lived through unmitigated hell while my brother was in Viet Nam.

But it never fails to revolt me when I hear sports icons and actors referred to as heroes. The men and women who served and sacrificed to preserve our freedoms were heroes. Someone who goes to a 5:00 a.m. practice session before school or work is not.

I have to agree with Spaw -- our children should be taught about that War. In fact, they ought to be taught about war, period: about courage, cowardice, sacrifice, brutality, victory, defeat -- the glory and the horror.

I believe it is true that those who do not study history are condemned to repeat it. What kind of favor are we doing our children to let them grow up ignorant of the most momentous events of the 20th Century?

If the schools won't do it, we should.

Sarah

Subject: RE: Dec 7th is 59th Anniversary
From: Mrrzy
Date: 07 Dec 00 - 01:59 PM

Sarah, I so completely agree with you about the misuse of the word Hero/ine. A firefighter entering a burning warehouse just in case there are homeless people in there is a hero. And I also, as a non-fundementalist pacifist, believe it REQUIRED to teach children about the horrors of war; they'll get enough of the glory side elsewhere.

Subject: RE: Dec 7th is 59th Anniversary
From: GUEST,Melani
Date: 07 Dec 00 - 02:23 PM

Naemanson, Viet Nam is no more ancient history to our children than WWII was to me. My dad was on a destroyer in the Pacific. He never spoke about it except humorously. The day he gave me my first driving lesson, my mother asked how it went, and he replied, "I haven't been so scared since the Battle of St. John's Island." I asked him what happened there, and he said, "My ship was sunk." I never heard any more about it; I don't even know the name of the ship. I guess he didn't want to relive it either.

Subject: RE: Dec 7th is 59th Anniversary
From: bflat
Date: 07 Dec 00 - 03:31 PM

For those who did not survive the bombing of Pearl Harbor: Rest In Peace. Many of us will remember your sacrifice and retell the story so that it is not lost.

Subject: RE: Dec 7th is 59th Anniversary
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 07 Dec 00 - 04:06 PM

Don't forget the Russians either, who suffered worse than anyone in bringing down the Nazis.

I grew up thinking of them as our friends, along with the Yanks, and basically that's how I've always thought of them, with the Cold War as a bloody stupid misunderstanding. When I was a kid, noone would have thought of playing war games with the Russians as the enemy.

Subject: RE: Dec 7th is 59th Anniversary
From: Parson
Date: 07 Dec 00 - 04:44 PM

Although I wasn't around then, (born in '48) I never fail to reflect on the significance of this date. My Dad did not serve in the military (4F) Instead he served on a farm that was considered a vital cog in the overall picture. What did they call it? WPA? My Father-in-law went ashore at Normandy a day or two after the initial assault. He was trapped in the "Bulge" and was lucky to come home alive. I also lost an Uncle whose ship was torpedoed in the Atlantic & had another Uncle who was in a POW camp in Germany. He & some others were assigned to a work farm, from which they escaped & managed to make their way to Spain and thence to England.

When I reflect on this date, I pray that we will never know such a time again. I remember that someone has said that the price of freedom is eternal vigilance. I hope that our President, Congress & other leaders never forget that. I also remember that Herman Wouk in the Preface of his "Winds of War" and "War And Remembrance" books said something to the effect that "either war is finished, or we are."

Peace!

Randall

Subject: RE: Dec 7th is 59th Anniversary
From: Naemanson
Date: 07 Dec 00 - 06:07 PM

For those who appear to have misunderstood me I did to mean that WWII was not relevant. There is a reason wwhy Studs Turkel called it The Good War.

What I meant is that to today's kids it has no relevance. My major error was that I did not distinguish between kids in the US and kids from countries directly involved in the war.

Subject: RE: Dec 7th is 59th Anniversary
From: Naemanson
Date: 07 Dec 00 - 06:08 PM

"For those who appear to have misunderstood me I did NOT mean that WWII was not relevant."

Need to prufrede!

Subject: RE: Dec 7th is 59th Anniversary
From: Bill in Alabama
Date: 07 Dec 00 - 06:27 PM

Troll-- The late Don Reno, of Reno and Smiley fame (and inventor of Reno Style banjo picking) used to regale me with stories of his experiences in Burma during WWII. Like your Dad, he seemed never to lose his hatred for the Japanese. He said that, when he toured Japan later with the band, he looked at ever man his age in the audience and wondered. . . .

Subject: RE: Dec 7th is 59th Anniversary
From: Banjer
Date: 07 Dec 00 - 06:54 PM

A day that shall live in infamy....I had a drill meet with my JROTC group yesterday afternoon. We spent almost half the session discussing Pearl Harbor. I can assure you that at least some of our kids know, understand, and respect the sacrifices made by those who went before us. Each one knew about the day and two even had grandparents that served and were still alive. I encouraged them to talk to those grandparents and learn as much firsthand as possible. They will do that and then share their stories with others in their class. God bless these kids and long live our history. Without these youngsters passing it on it will soon be lost.

Subject: RE: Dec 7th is 59th Anniversary
From: GUEST,Sarah
Date: 07 Dec 00 - 07:05 PM

Parson, I think they just referred to those jobs a Vital To The War Effort. That's all my mum remembers them as being -- farmers being of primary importance, of course -- since the days of Caesar.

McGrath, it isn't a matter of "forgetting the Russians." Most of us know their history during the war, and the terrible price they paid to fight Nazism. It's just that this is December 7th, Pearl Harbor Day in the U.S., and it has a special trauma for this country as a whole, and our attention tends to focus on its consequences to our own fathers and grandfathers -- and to us. It was a genuine watershed event in this country's history, and everyone who was alive then remembers where he or she was when they heard about the attack. They tell their children and their grandchildren and their great-granchildren, and they speak in hushed tones for the men of the U.S.S. Arizona and the others who died that day. It's a somber 24 hours for many people in this country, the day that brought our nation fully into World War II. A lot of conflicting emotions.

Sarah

Subject: RE: Dec 7th is 59th Anniversary
From: Cobble
Date: 07 Dec 00 - 08:08 PM

Never forget Pearl Harbour, the most important lesson ever taught at school is HISTORY, what sickens me is it is pushed aside so much now. Everybody remembers the famous battles, but nobody remembers the biggest. Thousands of civilians died horrifically burnt to death, drowned, blown up, frozen to death just doing there job, it lasted from 1939 to 1945 THE BATTLE OF THE ATLANTIC Americans, Canadians, Europeans and my own countrymen from the British Isles, just to keep that life line open to Europe. Ask the youngsters now about it they would'nt know what we were talking about. Family wise my father was an army gunner on merchant ships in the atlantic, he often talked with affection about America, one of my uncles was a royal marine commando, fighting with Tito's partisans in Yugoslavia and we lost one of our family on HMS Prince of Wales when the Japanese bombed her not long after Pearl. Never forget the sacrifices made Cobble.

Subject: RE: Dec 7th is 59th Anniversary
From: Suffet
Date: 07 Dec 00 - 08:08 PM

If you think the danger is far away,
And cannot reach our shore,
Go ask the wives of MacArthur's men,
They'll tell you about this war,
Go ask the widows of the Pearl Harbor boys,
Our heroines brave and fine,
You'll find them at work in the training schools,
And on the assembly line.

From THE BELT LINE GIRL
Words by Sis Cunningham
Music by Woody Guthrie ("East Texas Red")
adpated from traditional ("Danville Girl")

Subject: RE: Dec 7th is 59th Anniversary
From: Naemanson
Date: 07 Dec 00 - 09:20 PM

I work at a Navy base. On my wall I have a calendar that has been a source of geat interest for me all year long. It is a series of paintings of naval actions from the Constellation vs the L'Insurgent to carrier operations.

The picture for this month shows the USS Arizona as she is being tied up to the camels on the morning of December 6, 1941.

When I was in college a friend and I took on a project of interviewing people to hear their stories of where they were when they heard the news of what happened at Pearl. It was fascinating to hear their stories. I wish I had saved those tapes.

Subject: RE: Dec 7th is 59th Anniversary
From: blt
Date: 07 Dec 00 - 09:58 PM

I was born in 1951, arriving with enough protest that my father was allowed to stay with my mom and not go to Korea. He had spent WWII in England, a mechanic for B-52s. When I was a kid, I used to peruse a scrapbook he had of photos and odds and ends from the war, including a piece of Nazi propaganda, dropped over England when he was stationed there. He never talked very much about his experiences. My mom talked more about Pearl Harbor as she was in Los Angeles at the time. She also talked about the Japanese being incarcerated in concentration camps, how suddenly "Japs" became the enemy. Even in the 50s, when I was in elementary school, boys drew pictures of German tanks and swastikas, played at war, called kids they didn't like "Japs." Pearl Harbor means many different things to people, as does its aftermath. I've often wondered how it must have felt to be native Hawaiian or Pacific Islander during that time, how the US military treated the Pacific in general as one big base of operations. It is the glaring contradictions of war that are extremely painful--and often misunderstood or banished or rewritten.

Subject: RE: Dec 7th is 59th Anniversary
From: katlaughing
Date: 07 Dec 00 - 10:33 PM

Allan, I hope you are taping your mom's stories; I know you have the equipment.

I used to say my uncle survived Guadacanal, wounded and in a foxhole for what seemed forever; kept in New Zealand, in hospital, for a year before they felt it was safe to move him home. Carried shrapnel near his heart all of his life. I consider him a casualty/victim now, as we know he killed himself with a shotgun in 1990 or '91, can't remember, as a direct consequence of what he saw, did, and suffered from WWII.

While I agree it is important to always remember those who have served and that children do need to learn about our history, I do have to say I wish there were some way for history to focus on more than war. I know it does to some extent, but it seems whenever there is something on television or in books, etc. the defintitive timelines which history is measured by are wars and other tragedies. Please know, I mean no offense, it just makes me sad that humankind measures the majority of its history in this way. I hope we can reach a time when disputes can be settled peacably and there will be no need for such sacrifice as my uncle's.

Respectfully,

kat

Subject: RE: Dec 7th is 59th Anniversary
From: Matt_R
Date: 07 Dec 00 - 10:39 PM

If you don't talk about war, how can you appreciate peace?

Subject: RE: Dec 7th is 59th Anniversary
From: Banjer
Date: 08 Dec 00 - 02:58 AM

Kat, maybe war is used in timelines because it is something more folks can remember or identify with. Matt says it well, if we don't remember the bad times, what do we have to compare the good times too? Let us all work towards the peace that we want for ourselves and for our descendants. In this Christmas season let us all work towards 'Peace on Earth, Good will towards man!' For that matter, why limit it to the season, why can't we all act like it's Christmas year round?

Subject: RE: Dec 7th is 59th Anniversary
From: katlaughing
Date: 08 Dec 00 - 06:09 AM

I am sure you are right, Banjer, but I think Matt oversimplified what I said. I didn't say not to speak of it; just wish we could all focus on the peace you speak of so well.

One of my favourite quotes by Albert Einstein was to the effect that we cannot simultaneously prepare for war, yet expect peace. THAT may be an oversimplification, but it does give one pause to consider the power of the mass consciousness.

Sorry, phoaks, as I said, I meant no disrespect. I will go start a new thread with a related question, though. Thanks,

kat

Subject: RE: Dec 7th is 59th Anniversary
From: GUEST,Matt_R
Date: 08 Dec 00 - 09:14 AM

Well, look at the history. Is it more interesting to hear about the individual efforts of people for love of country, family, patriotism, personal reasons, etc...or our very exciting peaceful world of hanging chads, unfair executions, the media's corruption of society, intolerance against women, religions, sexual orientations, destruction of the environment....yes yes I can see that peace is so much more better to focus on.

Subject: RE: Dec 7th is 59th Anniversary
From: katlaughing
Date: 08 Dec 00 - 09:49 AM

*sigh* Matt, do you have to trivialise and try to pick a fight? If, so why don't you take it over to the thread I started specifically about history and war; growing up would help, too.

Subject: RE: Dec 7th is 59th Anniversary
From: GUEST,Matt
Date: 08 Dec 00 - 10:02 AM

SARCASM!

Sarcasm.

Sigh.

Subject: RE: Dec 7th is 59th Anniversary
From: Troll
Date: 08 Dec 00 - 10:02 AM

It is not trivial to focus on the good that people have done and the sacrifices they have made in the defense of their people and/or nation whether it be in war OR peace.
I am always amused at those who will rise up like the Wrath of God to defend the RIGHTS OF (insert name here) but will condemn those who would defend their homes from aggression, foreign or domestic. They never seem to see the inconsistency in their actions.
For once, Matt, I think I agree with you.

troll

Subject: RE: Dec 7th is 59th Anniversary
From: katlaughing
Date: 08 Dec 00 - 10:53 AM

I said: ...I agree it is important to always remember those who have served and that children do need to learn about our history...

Troll, imo, Matt trivialised everything he listed, as well as the purpose of this thread with his attempt at sarcasm. I asked him to move it over to the other thread I started, specifically so that this one would not get mucked up with this kind of thing.

I tried to be respectful and present a wish for balance, while remembering my uncle and others from my family who served in wars. I have not trivialised anything. I feel you are both either overreacting or only reading what you want to see in my words.

For any more on it, I will be in the other thread and will not respond in this thread, again.

kat

Subject: RE: Dec 7th is 59th Anniversary
From: DougR
Date: 08 Dec 00 - 01:58 PM

It's too bad, it seems to me, that December 7 has become more or less a footnote to history. As each year goes by, the day receives less and less attention from the media.

As an eleven year old boy, I still remember the day well (though I had no idea in the world where Pearl Harbor was).

DougR

Subject: RE: Dec 7th is 59th Anniversary
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 08 Dec 00 - 02:40 PM

I didn't mentioned the Russians in order to diminish the significance of the Pearl Harbour anniversary, but because it had broadened out into other stuff about the war. And the central part played by the Russian people does get marginalised a lot of the time.

I guarantee that if you asked a bunch of young schoolkids who was on what side in the war, you'd find some who'd say that the Russians were the enemy.

The ironic thing is that, for people of my parent's generation in Europe, Pearl Harbour was "good news", because it brought the Americans onside.

Subject: RE: Dec 7th is 59th Anniversary
From: Troll
Date: 08 Dec 00 - 06:33 PM

Because of the Hitler-Stalin Pact many in America considered Russia our enemy, but when Hitler turned on Stalin, America jumped in to help. The "Murmansk Run" up through the Arctic was the lifeline that brought supplies to the beseiged Soviets. One convoy, PQ17 lost 22 out of 33 ships to Norway-based German bombers
But after VE Day, Russia held back and only declared war on Japan a very short time before VJ Day.

troll

Subject: RE: Dec 7th is 59th Anniversary
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 09 Dec 00 - 09:39 AM

I'm not coat-trailing, troll, honest. The in-and-outs of what happened sixty years ago are complicated. The bottom line is that without the Russians I'd probably have grown up (if I was lucky) in a world where the Nazis had won.

Subject: RE: Dec 7th is 59th Anniversary
From: Ebbie
Date: 09 Dec 00 - 03:40 PM

'Peace' is not what Matt described there. Peace is people loving, having children, nurturing families, singing and making music. Peace is people free to travel, free to learn, free to teach, growing things, helping others, electing representatives to stand for us in the world. Peace is the freedom in which to live and grow and learn.

What Matt described is the cancers that are to be combatted or neutralized in peace time. I would hate to think that they are our defining elements.

War is the temporary failure of peace. In my mind, the people who paid the ultimate price for that failure are to be honored and remembered- but the whole thrust of civilization must be in the direction of making wars not only unnecessary but archaic.

I dream of a day when wars are but dimly remembered artifacts of a distant past.

Ebbie

Ebbie

Subject: RE: Dec 7th is 59th Anniversary
From: Matt_R
Date: 09 Dec 00 - 07:13 PM

Well, imagine what your "folk" music would be like without war, injustices, murder, disasters, etc. Songs about loving and families and songs about making music (metamusic?) will get old after a while. Look at modern country music, that's all they even sing about anymore. Dimly remembered artifacts of a distant past? All of history forgotten? Except the moments of happiness? Even McGrath's references of Beethoven and Woodstock and The Beatles and Shakespeare are not all happy little stories. If my life is affected by a war, and another's is totally affected by love alone, does their story take a greater importance than mind? Our lives would be a pretty dull place without our history. As for the utopian society of love....I sincerely doubt that will ever happen. And if it does, we will end up as little pink happiness-loving imbeciles who get eaten by Morlocks.

Subject: RE: Dec 7th is 59th Anniversary
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 09 Dec 00 - 07:23 PM

There's enough tragedy and heroism in life without war. As any inspection of the DT confirms.

The main significance of war in most songs isn't the big stuff, the battles - it's the lovers' partings and the bereavements that result, in the margins of history.

If we ever get things sorted out so as not to have wars every few years (well, actually more ot less conbtinuusly somewhere or other), life's still going to be pretty rough at times. Even if we get a juster society, it's never going to be an easy ride through life.

Subject: RE: Dec 7th is 59th Anniversary
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 09 Dec 00 - 09:27 PM

America jumped in to help."

Troll, I've made this point several times on this forum: America did not "jump in to help." America prevaricated. Even after Pearl Harbor, and to FDR's frustration, America prevaricated. Fortunately for the UK and Russia, Hitler resolved the matter for us, by declaring war on America.

Does anyone know if USSR/Russia has any significant date for remembrance? It could be that every date in the calendar is worth remembering for them: the scale of their losses was almost beyond comprehension. (More Russians died at Stalingrad than on both sides in the whole of WW1.)

But obviously it's not only about scale. There were presumably far heavier American losses later in the war (in the advance on Japan), and in circumstances where the combatants knew better the horrors they were getting into, than at Pearl Harbor?

Subject: RE: Dec 7th is 59th Anniversary
From: Ebbie
Date: 09 Dec 00 - 09:33 PM

I agree with McGrath. Even without war, there is death, with its parting and bereavement. There is misunderstanding and abuse and poverty and disease and disablement and orphaned children and love gone bad. Ah, yes, there is sadness enough without war.

The people who speak of the glory of war, in my opinion, are actually responding to the intensely heightened consciousness of the people in its midst. IMO, it is the same adrenalin rush that people today seek and find in extreme sports.

There is nothing like facing imminent death and finding oneself having survived it to make oneself feel ALIVE. I think that is what those people miss.

Ebbie

Subject: RE: Dec 7th is 59th Anniversary
From: Dave Wynn
Date: 09 Dec 00 - 09:43 PM

This may make me unpopular..But Pearl Harbour was a catylist that brought America into the war in Europe. This action saved us in Britain who were only just making the trip. With the USA in against the Axis countries (which included Japan) we managed to defeat Hitler and the Japanise , remember the Italians were in on the "other side" and we in the U.K. appreciate the difficulty that the USA had in sending American soldiers of Italian extraction to fight against their "native" country. The sacrifices of the USA Soldiers , Airmen , Navy and civillian personel are not and will never be forgotten here in the U.K. If in any doubt come over to one of our rememberance day parades where we salute all the nations who helped us through those most awful years. "Lest we forget" is not just a cliche in the U.K. We were only 21 miles away from destruction and we mean it. Just to add some song content. Every folk music club I visited over the weeks in early November (11/11/1918) had songs about the two world wars....we keep it alive that way too.

Spot the (emotional) Dog

Subject: RE: Dec 7th is 59th Anniversary
From: jets
Date: 09 Dec 00 - 10:12 PM

Someone mentioned the big battle,The north Atlantic.I was there from 42until 45.I became a WW2 veteran in 1998. and I am still bitter about it. I remember hearing about the bombing of Pearl in a dinner but it was only as I was crossing the street going to the movie house that it came to me that I was going to war and I recall that I was afraid. I was 17. I remember that feeling as if it were yesterday .