Dec 7th is 59th Anniversary

Subject: RE: Dec 7th is 59th Anniversary
From: Troll
Date: 10 Dec 00 - 01:36 AM

Fionn... We were officially neutral in 39 and 40 When Lend Lease was passed in March 1941 it had been bitterly debated for two months. There was a strong isolationist feeling in America and there were people, like Charles Lindberg who admired Hitler. After Lend Lease pased our neutrality was a sham but passions still ran high. We began to send supplies to England and -to a lesser extent- to Russia. This support cost the US over 50 billion dollars by 1945. The Russian losses can, to a great extent, be laid at the feet of Stalin. He had purged all the competent general officers and replaced them with politically correct incompetents for the most part. The Red army was ill-equipped to face Hitlers troops although they did have a superior tank in the T-34. That Russia lost so many troops is no surprise considering the circumstances. As poorly led as they were, it's a wonder they weren't ALL killed.
The siege of Stalingrad and the defense of Leningrad will always be remembered as miracles of heroism. If Stalin had not had generals like Timoshenko and Zukhov, the story might have been very different on the Eastern Front. Even with all this, if Roosevelt had declared war before Pearl Harbor, the country would have been very divided and we would not have been as effective as we were AFTER Pearl Harbor. After Pearl, we were united in our effort and determination to defeat those who had attacked us. We did not prevaricate. We could not have done what we did had the country been divided against itself. Spotty, thanks for the kind words. Jets. Merchant Marine?

troll

Subject: RE: Dec 7th is 59th Anniversary
From: Banjer
Date: 10 Dec 00 - 03:20 AM

Oh boy....Spot The Dog, make room in the doghouse, I'll be sharing the space with you after this.......My dad hated the (insert nationality). This is a statement that I have read many times in many posts and books I have read. It is understandable for someone to hate because of what they saw, or because of the friends or family members lost. But should we hate an entire race? If there is a need to hate, then place the blame on the individual that caused the hurt or anger. Just because our parents or grandparents "hated the ??????" why should we carry this on? I have many aquaintences of various racial and ethnic backgrounds. We all have. We may not agree with a country's political views, (China is a good example) but that is no reason to hate the Chinese people. I was rather severely injured during a struggle with a group of blacks while on duty as an MP in 1969. Almost lost vision in my right eye. So according to tradition I should hate black people?? Not so. I don't think I could sit at the same table with the perpetrator, but I don't hate his entire race for his actions. Food for thought....

Subject: RE: Dec 7th is 59th Anniversary
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Dec 00 - 04:14 AM

Banjer,

>".... I was rather severely injured during a struggle with a group of blacks while on duty as an MP in 1969. Almost lost vision in my right eye. So according to tradition I should hate black people?? Not so. I don't think I could sit at the same table with the perpetrator, but I don't hate his entire race for his actions...."

But imagine if there were no black people in the USA (I presume that this was in the US) - better still, assume the incident had occurred at the hands of Ruritanians, that you'd never met a Ruritanian before that and that the only contact you'd ever had with Ruritanians was hostile (especially if it had involved your mates being killed), then tell me that you'ld have the same attitude that you have at present.

I'm not supporting (or even trying to justify) hating a nation or race, but I believe I can understand why it happens.

Regards

Tom

Subject: RE: Dec 7th is 59th Anniversary
From: Banjer
Date: 10 Dec 00 - 06:48 AM

Tom, You make a valid point. I based my experience on today's world. Back in the 1940's probably many of the boys then had not been exposed to the world community. They came from backgrounds of all white neighborhoods and then were all of a sudden shipped overseas to find that they were faced with an enemy largely unknown to them. I can understand how hatred of a total group could happen. I would hope that in our age something like that could not be possible. I also hope that my ramblings here can be understood!

Subject: RE: Dec 7th is 59th Anniversary
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 10 Dec 00 - 08:08 AM

Is there a country that doesn't have descendants or emigrants living in the USA?

So far as Italy was concerned, I assume tha Italian-Americans would have seen it as going to liberate Italy, and the reception they'd have got would have confirmed that, because thta's how most Italians in Itakly saw it. My father's war was largely in Italy and it felt like being part of a liberating army to him.

It must have been harder for Americans of non-Jewish German descent. Japanese Americans of course had different problems.

Subject: RE: Dec 7th is 59th Anniversary
From: jets
Date: 10 Dec 00 - 08:29 AM

Yes Troll. Merchant Marine

Subject: RE: Dec 7th is 59th Anniversary
From: Naemanson
Date: 10 Dec 00 - 10:28 AM

Troll – I believe there is evidence that Stalin purged his officer corps based on intelligence that they were plotting against him. And that intelligence came from the Germans! It was Hitler's first step in his attempt to conquer Russia.

Banjer – you need to remember that WWII was the first war which depended on propaganda. Those hatreds were not created but they were fed by a political machine that was gearing the country up for the fight. As a result you had all the stories of atrocities fed to the public the rev up their anger and hatred. These hatreds have held on for a long time but will hopefully abate over time.

Subject: RE: Dec 7th is 59th Anniversary
From: catspaw49
Date: 10 Dec 00 - 11:28 AM

Thread has taken an interesting turn hasn't it?

I watched a special on Pearl Harbor on the History Channel last night. The participants on both sides were and are interesting. In 92 they started to get together at the Arizona Memorial and now have also met in Japan. These men and women have tried to overcome the hatreds of the times and its very touching listening to their stories. Equally compelling are the stories of the ones that can never forgive or forget....ie, an Arizona survivor burned over 70% of his body who lost best friends standing beside him. I wonder if I could let go of the hatred he has?

On the other hand, several Japanese pilots felt shame for the attack. They were told that the US would be notified 30 minutes ahead of the actual attack. Its a part of the Bushido code to awaken a sleeping enemy before you attack him. Because the message was not delivered, many of the pilots felt shame for the surprise attack.

Interesting world.

Spaw

Subject: RE: Dec 7th is 59th Anniversary
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 11 Dec 00 - 01:47 PM

All fair points Troll. I still find it incredible that America prevaricated AFTER Pearl Harbour, as though there was still no political stomach to join the war (I'm guessing that the popular mood must have been overwhelmingly in favour by then). Was it fairly certain that they would have gone in even if Hitler hadn't decided the matter?

Subject: RE: Dec 7th is 59th Anniversary
From: Troll
Date: 11 Dec 00 - 11:32 PM

Actually, Fionn, the "Great Debate" had raged for months. Isolationist sentiment was strong. The whole tenor of the national mood was that we were not going to get involved in European politics again.
We had lent millions to the British and French in WWI and it had never been repaid and we had still had to sent American troops to die on foreign soil in a fight that many felt was not ours.
It was Europes war; let Europe fight it. And we certainly weren't going to get involved in the Pacific.
Why should we protect the empires of England and France?
After Pearl Harbor the public sentiment shifted and war was declared on Dec.8, 1942 on Japan. But there was STILL a feeling among the people that Hitler was Europes business, not ours. Roosevelt was working on changing their minds when Hitler and Mussolini declared war on Dec. 11, 1942 making the whole thing moot.
It was not political will that was lacking but a strongly unified country.
Interestingly enough, some historians feel that if Japan had NOT attacked Pearl, the US would not have entered the war until late 1943, if then. Yamamoto wanted a free hand in the Pacific and he felt that if he could deliver a knock-out punch to the American fleet, we would be no threat and might not even try to retaliate. Japan would have a clear shot right into Australia.
Both Japan and Gremany vastly underrated the US capacity for production. That, coupled with Hitlers tactical blunders led to the ultimate defeat of the Axis Powers.

troll

Subject: RE: Dec 7th is 59th Anniversary
From: Ebbie
Date: 12 Dec 00 - 12:38 AM

I just finished a heavy (in more ways than one: it has 700 some pages) book on the holocaust and the war in the European theatre, published this year, called The Holocaust Chronicle.

They say they kept the price low so it will be affordable to far more people and institutions. I'm plannng to donate my copy to the local public library- I think everyone should have access to it.

All I can say is: God forgive us.

Ebbie

Subject: RE: Dec 7th is 59th Anniversary
From: JedMarum
Date: 07 Dec 01 - 09:39 AM

Subject: RE: Dec 7th is 59th Anniversary
From: Steve in Idaho
Date: 07 Dec 01 - 11:06 AM

Some parts of this thread are incredibly sad - bunch of folks fighting about what is more important. Those that fought for peace or those that fought in the war. As one who will grieve until I die for those lost - and who has more friends dead than alive - just remember in your hearts in a good way all of the sacrifices made in the name of freedom.

Haven't we bled enough?

Steve

Subject: RE: Dec 7th is 59th Anniversary
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Dec 01 - 11:38 AM

"At the going down of the Sun, & in the morning, We will Remember them...."

Subject: RE: Dec 7th is 59th Anniversary
From: GUEST,matt c.
Date: 18 Jun 07 - 11:39 AM

I remember a story my uncle told me about when he was in Vietnam,it goes like this,When I was in Vietnam I was an engineer. We went to Germany and a german asked,"do you want to ride in our tank?"He said,"sure why not."they rode around and came back. He also told me that they would race jeeps up the side of a mountain. The sergent would always say,"It's all fun and games until someone rolls a jeep." And sure enough someone did roll a jeep.Also when they stayed in Germany they would get up for formation it was always cold. One day he got tired of that and filled a coffee can full of sand and dumped gasoline in and lit it and put it by his feet. It must have pissed off the sergent because he made him do 65 push ups!

Subject: RE: Dec 7th is 59th Anniversary
From: GUEST,matt c.
Date: 18 Jun 07 - 11:45 AM

We were watching a show about Pearl Harbor and just before Roosevelt made his speech my dad said,"Emporer Hirohito we're comin' to kick your ass!"

Subject: RE: Dec 7th is 59th Anniversary
From: GUEST,matt c.
Date: 18 Jun 07 - 11:48 AM

And we did didn't we!!

Subject: RE: Dec 7th is 59th Anniversary
From: kendall
Date: 19 Jun 07 - 09:20 AM

I often wonder if anyone cares why they declared war on us?

Subject: RE: Dec 7th is 59th Anniversary
From: Rapparee
Date: 19 Jun 07 - 09:30 AM

Ah, Matt -- what's your point?

Subject: RE: Dec 7th is 59th Anniversary
From: Little Hawk
Date: 19 Jun 07 - 09:40 AM

Matt c. - Everyone who got killed or maimed...or lost a loved one...got his or her "ass kicked" in that war. As in every war. That includes a lot of people from your country too. So I wouldn't advise gloating too much over the suffering inflicted on the losing parties, if I were you. People do not march off to a war imagining that they are serving an evil or a wrongful cause. They normally think they are doing a very good, necessary, and patriotic thing, because their government and their whole society has told them so.

If you'd been born Japanese, that's exactly what you would have thought in 1941....unless you are the one in 100,000 exception to the general rule, and I doubt that you are.

Subject: RE: Dec 7th is 59th Anniversary
From: Little Hawk
Date: 19 Jun 07 - 10:01 AM

Kendall asks, "I often wonder if anyone cares why they declared war on us?"

Yeah. I wonder if anyone does? I always like to know why people do things like declare war, but most people seem to just be satifisfied with "Oh, they did it because they're evil!" (sheesh...)

There were plenty of reasons why. But remember, it wasn't the ordinary people of Japan who wanted to go to war. It was their government that made that decision for them, just like Mr Bush has made his decisions to attack Afghanistan and Iraq. The government decides all by itself to do these things, and then it sets about telling the people why it supposedly made that decision (and usually telling quite a few lies in the process).

Governments go to war because they feel their vital interests are at stake in some way. That usually has to do with things like land, trade, strategic resources, money....

Japan was in a period of industrial and imperial expansion. They were embroiled in a major war with China. To fight that war they needed huge supplies of oil, rubber, steel, and other strategic resources. The resources they needed were located in areas in the Pacific which were controlled by the USA, Great Britain, and the Netherlands. Roosevelt knew that, and he wanted to get the USA into WWII in order to defeat Germany, but he had an isolationist public AND Congress who weren't in the mood for entering a war in Europe.

Roosevelt knew that he could provoke Japan into a war by cutting off their sources of oil and steel. He did so by a trade embargo on Japan. Within less than a year the Japanese did exactly what Roosevelt KNEW they would most certainly do...they attacked the USA, the UK, and the Netherlands bases in the Pacific region. It was inevitable from the moment Roosevelt had put the embargo into effect.

So if you want to blame somebody for Pearl Harbor, there are two clear parties to blame for it:

1. The Empire of Japan...they did it.
2. Franklin D. Roosevelt...he set it up to happen that way.

In retrospect, it is rather ironical that he would get all puffed and righteous in his speech about the "Day of Infamy"...as if he could have had NO idea it would happen...but that was just normal PR for a politician. Roosevelt had to act shocked and surprised by what the Japanese did. After all, his public certainly was!!!

Kind of like 911 that way....very, very, very convenient for an administration's long range military planning and strategy.

The public always reacts just as they can be expected to. They get really angry. They want to "kick someone's ass" (some foreigner). That's exactly how the young Japanese pilots felt when they flew off to hit Pearl Harbor.

The people who died in all these wars were the unwitting dupes and victims of their own governments. If you had had a chance to know them personally, you would not have wanted to see them get killed.

Subject: RE: Dec 7th is 59th Anniversary
From: GUEST,cookie
Date: 19 Jun 07 - 11:26 AM

I was only making a joke.

Subject: RE: Dec 7th is 59th Anniversary
From: kendall
Date: 19 Jun 07 - 12:41 PM

LH, we had our own imperialist era, yet we forbade Japan to expand. Also, FDR froze their assets and pushed them over the edge.
He was outraged because they hit us in a sneak attack without a declaration of war.
The Shrub did the same thing in Iraq.
I deplore what the Japanese did, but I also understand why they did it.

Subject: RE: Dec 7th is 59th Anniversary
From: GUEST,cookie
Date: 19 Jun 07 - 04:11 PM

why did they do it?

Subject: RE: Dec 7th is 59th Anniversary
From: kendall
Date: 19 Jun 07 - 04:17 PM

Guest cookie, it's all in the previous posts.

Subject: RE: Dec 7th is 59th Anniversary
From: GUEST,cookie
Date: 19 Jun 07 - 06:30 PM

OK.

Subject: RE: Dec 7th is 59th Anniversary
From: Little Hawk
Date: 19 Jun 07 - 10:06 PM

Picture it this way, Cookie. Suppose that some other powerful nation, right now, had the power to cut off all the USA's overseas supplies of oil and certain other vital strategic resources, through a trade embargo....because they disagreed with the USA's wars in Iraq and Afghanistan.

Suppose it was a big, heavily armed nation...a nation with the power to fight the USA on at least equal terms, if not better than equal.

Would the USA respond within less than a year by attacking that nation? Definitely. There would be a major war if someone cut off all the USA's foreign oil sources to pressure the USA into giving up on its wars in the Middle East. It would be a world war.

That's exactly what FDR did to the Japanese in 1941 in order to pressure them into giving up their war in China, and consenting to be nice little losers...and go home.

They were not going to do that. Like America, they were a proud nation. They were a nation that had not been defeated before by anyone. They would not give up and go home, they would fight...even though they knew that America could outproduce them by a huge margin when it came to building weapons of war.

FDR knew what he was doing. He drove them into a corner where it was inevitable that they would attack the USA's bases in the Pacific. In order to do so with any chance of success, they had to attack by stealth suddenly and without warning....as, for example, Israel did in the Six Day War in 1967.

Israel is not criticized by the USA for having done that. It is not called a "Day of Infamy" (except, no doubt, by the Egyptians and their Muslim allies). ;-)

You see, infamy is all a question of perspective...and propaganda.

Roosevelt arranged that war. His outrage over the Japanese attack was a nice act performed for public consumption, because the one thing necessary from Roosevelt's point of view was to ensure that the American public got DAMN mad at Japan...mad enough to be quite ready to all go out and fight Japan to the bitter end...and then it wouldn't be hard to get them to fight Germany too, which was the main thing Roosevelt wanted to happen. He regarded Germany as too dangerous for the USA to stand on the sidelines, and I'd say he was correct about that.

Hitler and Mussolini then did him the huge favor of declaring war on the USA by Dec 11th to show their friendship with Japan! That was a really stupid move on their part...but Hitler always did have a tendency to make the worst decisions when his emotions were involved.

The Japanese, on the other hand, were not stupid enough (or reckless enough) to return Germany that favor by attacking the Russians in the East....which they could have.

Wars are a matter of pragmatism. Great powers start wars for one of two reasons:

1. They think they can win a quick victory and gain something from it.

or...

2. They think they simply have no choice, because they've been pushed into a corner.

Japan hoped against hope to achieve Number 1 above...the quick victory, but they mainly did it because of reason Number 2. They figured they had no other choice. The word "surrender" was not in their vocabulary. And I don't think it's in the USA's vocabulary either, is it?

Roosevelt was a smart player. He got exactly what he wanted. The Japanese attacked, starting the war they couldn't possibly win, and the war that FDR wanted and needed.

It's like a game of chess. Everyone plays to win. If they can't win, they play to draw. If they can't draw, they still stretch it out to the bitter end, hoping for a miracle to save them...those hopes, for Germany and Japan, died in the ashes of Berlin and Hiroshima.

Why? For the simplest reason of all: gross national product. Their combined industrial output (including Italy's) could not possibly match the combined resources of the USA, the UK, and Russia. The side with the most money, men, ships, and aircraft won, as is generally the case.

The only country in the world right now that could seriously oppose the USA, in my opinion, is China. (and Russia maybe, to some extent) They are unlikely to do so, because the cost of such a conflict would not be worth it. They are far better off to just continue doing business as usual with America for the time being. Good thing too! You definitely don't want to see another world war, believe me...continental America is no longer a safe refuge beyond strategic bombing range of its potential enemies, as it was in the WWII era.

Subject: RE: Dec 7th is 59th Anniversary
From: Greg B
Date: 19 Jun 07 - 10:58 PM

The cost to China and/or Russia would be annihilation, particularly
to China. Since the US lacks the sheer number of bodies to throw
into such a conflict, we would almost certainly opt for 'the
nuclear option,' executing a definitive and comprehensive 'first
strike.' Whether either nation would be able to retaliate
effectively is unclear.

But ONLY that option would plunge China into such disarray that
it would be unable to organize a conventional war.

Subject: RE: Dec 7th is 59th Anniversary
From: Little Hawk
Date: 20 Jun 07 - 09:12 AM

Right, but I think the Russians would have the means to retaliate in an almost equally destructive manner, so it would effectively annihilate the USA as well. It would at the very least utterly ruin the economy and general society for quite some time. The costs to all concerned would be so prohibitive that it is quite unlikely to happen. What is more likely is a series of ruinous proxy wars and limited wars, fought out in 3rd World nations with the backing and management of the major players. And that is what we have underway right now. We have two ruinous proxy wars occurring in Afghanistan and Iraq. We have another raging in Africa. They are side effects of various competitive games that are being played by the USA and other great powers. I think that more such wars are likely. Such wars may eventually involve some limited use of nuclear weapons. The Bush administration has been hinting at that option for some time now.

Subject: RE: Dec 7th is 59th Anniversary
From: GUEST,undertheradar
Date: 20 Jun 07 - 10:17 AM

"They were just trying to expand."

Read this for war crimes:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nanking_Massacre

Subject: RE: Dec 7th is 59th Anniversary
From: Little Hawk
Date: 20 Jun 07 - 11:17 AM

Yes, undertaker. When empires expand, people who are in their way die like flies. Don't think I am making apologies for the Japanese! I am not. Like many before them (Romans, Greeks, Mongols, Americans, Germans, British, French, Italians, Persians, Belgians, Iroquois, Aztecs, Russians, Zulus, etc...etc...etc...) the Japanese exterminated many of the people who stood in their way and committed terrible atrocities. The rape of Nanking is a prime example of their worst behaviour.

Subject: RE: Dec 7th is 59th Anniversary
From: Rog Peek
Date: 20 Jun 07 - 03:24 PM

I am amazed that in this whole thread about the attack on Pearl Harbour and its consequences for people in the U.S., and indeed all over the world, no-one as far as I can see has mentioned the consequences for Japanese Americans following that attack.

Around this time 65 years ago, 120,000 Japanes descendants, 62% of whom were american citizens were settling into what were euphamistically called relocation camps, where they would remain until 1945. The conditions were often attrocious and the whole experience was humiliating.

Many lost everything and on release were forced to start their lives from scratch.

There are lessons to be leaned here as well.

Incidentally, I was completely unaware of the plight of these people until after I had heard Tom Paxton sing Tom Russell's song 'Manzanar' when he was on tour in the U.K. I would be interested to know from Mudcats over the water if it's something that is remembered by those other than in the Japanese community.

Subject: RE: Dec 7th is 59th Anniversary
From: Little Hawk
Date: 20 Jun 07 - 03:39 PM

Yes, Rog, it is well remembered by me, and it serves to further illustrate my point, which is that all empires behave brutally toward innocent people who happen to get in their way...or whom they even think might get in their way someday...

Note the USA's treatment of Iraq in the last few years.

The reason I get tired of hearing only about the evil done a long time ago by Japanese or Nazis is this: it's too easy a target. It's a cliche by now. And it is used to focus people's hatred upon the past and keep them obsessed with that, so that they do not pay proper attention to present evils of a similar nature, much closer to home, emanating directly out of their own society and its leaders.

Subject: RE: Dec 7th is 59th Anniversary
From: GUEST,undertheradar
Date: 20 Jun 07 - 04:05 PM

Yes, the Japanese-American internments are well remembered here. Congress voted each survivor about $20,000 in reparations some years ago. Unless they've changed in the past few years, Japanese textbooks don't even tell kids their country started the war.

Be careful about the word "atrocious" here. No Jpaanese-Americans were starved, tortured, murdered, beheaded, raped, experimented on, or set to slave labor, which is the treatment prisoners of the Japanese often received. The Japanese Army also used germ warfare against China.

I'm pretty tired of this moral equivalence about how we're all bad so everyone deserves equal blame.

Subject: RE: Dec 7th is 59th Anniversary
From: Rog Peek
Date: 20 Jun 07 - 04:31 PM

Yes undertheradar, I know, that's why I was careful not to use the term concentration camp, (although by some definitions they were), or to describe the conditions as inhuman. However, if I was forced to live in those circumstances for three years, I would have described them as atrocious.

Subject: RE: Dec 7th is 59th Anniversary
From: Rog Peek
Date: 20 Jun 07 - 05:34 PM

By the way, it was never my intention to criticise America per se in this respect. We had our camps during the Boer War where conditions were what could most certainly be described as inhuman.

Subject: RE: Dec 7th is 59th Anniversary
From: Little Hawk
Date: 20 Jun 07 - 06:05 PM

It is a common device of all oppressive governments to get their people to fixate upon some distant "evil" enemy...even one from 50 or 150 years ago...while pretending that their own hands are as clean as the driven snow.

That is what I object to, wherever I encounter it. If I was living in Japan, I would object to it there. I am not living in Japan, I am living in North America. The first place one needs to confront hypocrisy and coverups is in one's own home, because that is the place where one has to live and put up with the direct consequences of such behaviour.

I am not striking a moral equivalency between past American and Japanese misdeeds at all. I am not striking a moral equivalency between any particular nations or atrocities of the past. I am dealing with confronting evil, propaganda, and hypocrisy where it counts the most for me...on my own home turf. Here in North America.

Were I a Japanese, I would deal with it first on my own home turf in Japan. That is one's duty as an awake and responsible citizen. You see...it gets me nowhere obsessing about what evil was done by Japanese or Germans more than 50 years ago. It's just rechewing old oatmeal. It's one more time around the wornout mulberry bush.

I would be delighted if the Japanese would have the honesty to tell their schoolchildren what really happened. I would be delighted if the Americans would do the same for their children! But no....they'd all rather just go on pretending that everything bad in the world always comes from "the other guy", wouldn't they? From Osama. From Saddam. From the Commies. From Castro. From the Devil. But NEVER from the guys in suits who send you out to kill for them. Uh-uh. The Great Oz must remain hidden behind the screen of self-serving propaganda at all times.

Gotta keep those innocent kids on the American home front fooled, "undertheradar", just like the kids in Japan are fooled, in case you need 'em to go out someday and kill some more foreigners on your behalf...

That's what the poor suckers are doing right now, as a matter of fact. They're young, strong, ill-informed, and primed for disaster...just like the young Japanese were back in '41.

Subject: RE: Dec 7th is 59th Anniversary
From: Rapparee
Date: 20 Jun 07 - 09:38 PM

I was aware of the Japanese internment camps from the time I was about 12, which would mean for about a half a century now. One of the, Minidoka, was located only about 75 miles from where I now live and I know people who were there during the war. In fact, the woman who hired me for the position I now hold was born there.

We -- the people around here of all ancestries -- are currently fighting with the Federal Government and some land "developers" who want the site: the government to sell it and the "developers" to "develope" it. I know of no one who favors this idea!

I also know some of those who served in the 442nd Regimental Combat Team, which was composed mostly of Japanese-Americans, mostly Nisei:

The 442nd RCT became the most decorated unit in U.S. military history for its size and length of service, earning it the nickname "The Purple Heart Battalion." The 442nd RCT received 7 Presidential Unit Citations (5 earned in one month), and its members received around 18,000 awards, including:

    * 21 Medals of Honor (the first awarded posthumously to PFC Sadao Munemori, Company A, 100th Battalion, for action near Seravezza, Italy, on April 5, 1945; the others upgraded from other awards in June 2000)
    * 52 Distinguished Service Crosses (including 19 Distinguished Service Crosses which were upgraded to Medals of Honor in June 2000)
    * 1 Distinguished Service Medal
    * 560 Silver Stars (plus 28 Oak Leaf Clusters for a second award)
    * 22 Legion of Merit Medals
    * 15 Soldier's Medals
    * 4,000 Bronze Stars (plus 1,200 Oak Leaf Clusters for a second award; one Bronze Star was upgraded to a Medal of Honor in June 2000)
    * 9,486 Purple Hearts

And not all Japanese-Americans were interned. Here in Pocatello, Idaho, for example some were and some weren't. Those that weren't usually had skills necessary to the war effort. Some here worked in the Naval Ordnance Plant making guns for ships, others worked on the railroads and in the railroad shops, and others actually taught at the air base here. I have at the Library a newspaper photo of a young girl of Japanese descent receiving a book as an award during the Summer Reading Program; the date on the photo is 1944, and it confused me until I learned that more than a few Japanese-American families here were NOT interned.

Also, the farther from the West Coast you went the more likely you were to find Japanese-Americans not interned. The fear was for the Pacific ports, I believe.

Still doesn't excuse it, though.

Subject: RE: Dec 7th is 59th Anniversary
From: Rapparee
Date: 20 Jun 07 - 10:57 PM

I should also say that I grew up knowing about he Bataan Death March, the Japanese POW Camps, and a host of other such things. My father and uncles fought in the Pacific; I have good reason to believe that my father helped liberate one of the Philipine prison camps.

There were terrible things done on all sides, and I have a copy of the letter my father wrote about the dropping of the atomic bombs. He said, "I don't know about the right or wrong of them, but if they will get me back to you [my mother] and my son [me] sooner I approve."

Subject: RE: Dec 7th is 59th Anniversary
From: guitar
Date: 21 Jun 07 - 03:07 AM

Infamy Infamy they have all in for me

Carry on team

but it was terrible that day, but as usaual the Yanks were late for that war as well, just like the first world war, in that war it was the Germans that brought the Yanks in and then in the second world war it was the Japs.

But a sad day for all

Subject: RE: Dec 7th is 59th Anniversary
From: Rapparee
Date: 21 Jun 07 - 08:32 AM

I don't mind being late for a war, or even missing it completely.

Subject: RE: Dec 7th is 59th Anniversary
From: cookster
Date: 04 Jul 07 - 04:59 PM

Me either

Subject: RE: Dec 7th is 59th Anniversary
From: Little Hawk
Date: 04 Jul 07 - 05:03 PM

Nor I. I intend to miss every war I possibly can miss.

Subject: RE: Dec 7th is 59th Anniversary
From: skipy
Date: 04 Jul 07 - 05:17 PM

So do I, but I fear my sons may not have a say in the matter when their time comes.
Skipy

Subject: RE: Dec 7th is 59th Anniversary
From: Ebbie
Date: 04 Jul 07 - 06:02 PM

Just as a matter of history, let's not forget that Canada too interned people of Japanese descent. At least in British Columbia.

I don't know if it's important but way up above in 2000 there were a number of people parrotting a wrongly used word. The US may well have prevaricated in WWII - we certainly do enough of it now - but it was not because we were late in entering the conflict. The US procrastinated.

Subject: RE: Dec 7th is 59th Anniversary
From: Little Hawk
Date: 05 Jul 07 - 01:45 PM

People keep getting the word "infer" confused with "imply" too, Ebbie...

The USA took its time getting into WWII, but there were good reasons for that. FDR had a public and Congress who were not eager to get involved in a distant war in Europe. Can you blame them? It's not a pleasant business going to war, and why should you do it if your own direct interests are not being threatened? That's the way most ordinary Americans saw it.

(The only reason Canada entered at the beginning was this: we were part of the British Commonwealth. All the nations in the British Commonwealth entered when the UK entered, in 1939. That's the way the British Commonwealth functioned as a political union back then. If we had not been members of the British Commonwealth, we probably would not have entered the war until the USA did...maybe even later than that, because our direct interests would not have been threatened.)

FDR was looking at the larger strategic picture in 1941, and he felt that it was imperative that Germany not win the war in Europe. The only way to be sure they didn't was for the USA, with its massive economy, to enter the war on the side of the UK and Russia. But how could Roosevelt arrange a war with Germany, given that his public and his Congress didn't want one? He couldn't very well just call up Adolf Hitler and say, "Please declare war on us. I need you to do that, okay?"

No, the Germans had the strongest reasons for NOT getting into a war with the USA at that juncture. They were already biting off more than they could probably chew.

There was really no way to get the USA into that war except by provoking someone else to attack the USA first. And that's exactly what FDR did. He deliberately provoked the Japanese into attacking the USA first. He did it in such a way that it couldn't possibly fail to work, by cutting off their supplies of oil and steel. He knew they would attack.

Once they did, the USA would BE at war. A major war. That would eliminate the problem of a public and Congress who wanted to remain at peace once and for all. From that point on it would not be too hard to take the next step, and get into a war with the Germans.

The one thing Roosevelt could never have foreseen, though, was the incredible gift that Hitler handed him by declaring war ON the USA within a few days after Pearl Harbour!!!!!!! No other German commander would have done that. It was an act of madness (or despair?) on Hitler's part....and it suited Roosevelt's planning perfectly. He now had his war against Germany, and Germany would not win in the West.

The fate of the Axis was sealed from that moment on...although...there was still a lot of very tough fighting ahead in both the Pacific and in Europe, because the Germans and Japanese, though badly outnumbered, were highly experienced and very good at the art of war.

Subject: RE: Dec 7th is 59th Anniversary
From: cookster
Date: 15 Jul 07 - 11:33 PM

I think he knows what he's talking about.

Subject: RE: Dec 7th is 59th Anniversary
From: pdq
Date: 07 Dec 11 - 11:43 AM

That day again.

Subject: RE: Dec 7th is 59th Anniversary
From: GUEST,Bluesman
Date: 07 Dec 11 - 12:46 PM

The Anglo-Irish Treaty is another date to recall on this day.

The treaty was signed in London on 6 December 1921 and accepted as law by the British Parliment on the 7th of December 1921. Representatives of the British government (which included David Lloyd George, who was head of the British delegates) and envoys of the Irish Republic, including Michael Collins and Arthur Griffith.

Subject: RE: Dec 7th is 59th Anniversary
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 07 Dec 11 - 12:55 PM

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