BS: Innocents abroad?

Subject: Innocents abroad?
From: Lanfranc
Date: 15 Dec 00 - 07:02 PM

"No-one likes us, don't know why. We may not be perfect, but heaven knows we try. All around, even our old friends put us down - so let's drop the big one and see what happens!" (Randy Newman - "Political Science")

A US President who's only been abroad twice is a little worrying to the rest of the world who have to live under the US political, military and cultural hegemony.

On another (inappropriate) thread this got lost in Canada vs US issues, but I would appreciate others' thoughts on this.

Subject: RE: BS: Innocents abroad?
From: MarkS
Date: 15 Dec 00 - 07:10 PM

Maybe now we will not try to tell the rest of the world how to live their lives.

Subject: RE: BS: Innocents abroad?
From: Troll
Date: 15 Dec 00 - 08:34 PM

Henry Ford once sued a reporter for slander, said reporter having said Ford was stupid or words to that effect. At the trial the reporters lawyer got Ford on the stand and began asking him all sorts of esoteric questions. To each question, Henry replied, "I don't know".
Finally the lawyer in triumph said, "You don't appear to know very much about anything, do you Mr. Ford?"
Replied Henry," I do know that with five minutes on the telephone, I can hire men who can answer every one of your questions."
The point is that the President doesn't HAVE to have all this knowledge at his fingertips. That's what staff is for.
To handle the little details.

troll

Subject: RE: BS: Innocents abroad?
From: kendall
Date: 15 Dec 00 - 11:05 PM

Thats a great story Troll..

Subject: RE: BS: Innocents abroad?
From: Naemanson
Date: 15 Dec 00 - 11:31 PM

MarkS, ignorance of other cultures has never stopped the US from dictating international relationships.

And you are right, Troll, he can hire people to handle the details but will they be able to make him understand what they are doing?

Actually I heard a very interesting discussion of just what kind of person GWB is. He sounds very like me. And I certainly wouldn't be comfortable about our future if they handed the key to me.

Subject: RE: BS: Innocents abroad?
From: GUEST,Greyeyes
Date: 16 Dec 00 - 08:45 AM

There was an item this morning on BBC Radio 4s "Today" programme in which a guy swore he had met George W at a wedding in Scotland some years ago, and was at a loss to understand why his office were not fiercely denying claims that he'd never visited Europe. No one could come up with a satisfactory explanation. When the presenter suggested it could have been a different George W the guy claimed he'd spoken to him himself and been told he was the son of George (president) Bush. Perhaps he got roaring drunk and behaved so badly he now glosses over the whole incident. Anyway, the plot thickens!

Subject: RE: BS: Innocents abroad?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 16 Dec 00 - 03:00 PM

Perhaps he just doesn't remember. (After all, there are precedents...)

Subject: RE: BS: Innocents abroad?
From: MarkS
Date: 16 Dec 00 - 03:55 PM

Yes, Naemanson, but now there will be so much ignorance nobody will see a point to intervention. Its tough to be an activist when you cannot pronounce "stratigic interest" So now we will all stay home and deal with our real problems, like Massachusetts and New York.
MarkS

Subject: RE: BS: Innocents abroad?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 16 Dec 00 - 04:19 PM

Over in England there's a Head of State who just does ceremonies and opens buildings and that, while the politicians and the officials actually run things, and make the decisions.

The USA has just come round to that way of doing things. Even down to the hereditary bit. And even the non-elected bit. And I gather he rides a horse as well. And likes shooting wild birds. HRH Bush.

Subject: RE: BS: Innocents abroad?
From: DougR
Date: 16 Dec 00 - 05:38 PM

You guys aren't cynical, are you? :>)

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Innocents abroad?
From: MarkS
Date: 16 Dec 00 - 08:41 PM

Cynical? Moi? No, just pretentious.

Subject: RE: BS: Innocents abroad?
From: Naemanson
Date: 16 Dec 00 - 08:49 PM

And in four or eight years his brother Jeb will make a run for the white house. He will run, as did his father, on the "no new taxes" platform. If he gets it he will not increase taxes but like his father he will "enhance revenues" and somehow that will come out of our pockets. We will have no say in this.

So once again we will have taxation without representation under George the Third! Must be time for another revolution!

Subject: RE: BS: Innocents abroad?
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Dec 00 - 08:54 PM

I know a couple of old bags we can throw overboard!

Subject: RE: BS: Innocents abroad?
From: MarkS
Date: 16 Dec 00 - 08:59 PM

I know, I know, its like having an argument over whether the pickpocket should lift your billfold with his right or left hand. OOPS, that is an argument I made BEFORE the election. I will now shut up and keep quiet for the next four years.
MarkS

Subject: RE: BS: Innocents abroad?
From: Lanfranc
Date: 17 Dec 00 - 06:39 PM

OK, now Dubbya's got Colin Powell on board, that is better, isn't it?

Hang on - Powell can't even pronounce his own Christian name!!!

Must watch "Dr Strangelove" again for a little reassurance!

Subject: RE: BS: Innocents abroad?
From: Troll
Date: 17 Dec 00 - 07:02 PM

Oh MarkS. If only we could believe that.

troll ***snik snik***

Subject: RE: BS: Innocents abroad?
From: Greg F.
Date: 17 Dec 00 - 10:14 PM

Whaddaya mean? He's got it right- like in Colinoscopy! Or maybe Turgidson.

Best, Greg

Subject: RE: BS: Innocents abroad?
From: Jimmy C
Date: 18 Dec 00 - 04:19 PM

Te following story reminds me of a lot of elected officials..

A mother once asked her husband what their son would be when he grew up.
He said "I don't know but I would like him to be a banker".
The mother preferred him to be a priest,
The Grandmother did'nt care so long as he was happy in his work.
The grandfather swore he would be a drunkard.
So they decided to experiment.
They placed a $20.00 bill, A bible and a bottle of whiskey on the table, Then they hid to observe the boy when he came home from school. The boy entered the house and saw the articles on the table. Looking around he saw he was alone , so he.
1 - Put the money in his pocket,
2 - put the bible under his arm,
3 - Put the whiskey in his other pocket and went to his room.
The grandmother exclaimed " Oh my God, He is going to be a politician" ?

Subject: RE: BS: Innocents abroad?
From: mousethief
Date: 18 Dec 00 - 05:12 PM

The difference, Troll, is that Ford didn't need to understand the questions he was asked to successfully run his business. Bush needs to understand the stuff he has proven again and again he doesn't in order to be a good president. He can hire all the experts he wants, but if he doesn't have a grip on what's going on, he can't make good decisions, and will end up being used by them, instead of using them, to run the oval office.

Alex

Subject: RE: BS: Innocents abroad?
From: Naemanson
Date: 18 Dec 00 - 05:31 PM

Just like Ronald Reagan!

Subject: RE: BS: Innocents abroad?
From: Troll
Date: 18 Dec 00 - 05:32 PM

As I said before, Alex, the man was elected governor of Texas Twice. He was only the second Republican Governor since reconstruction.He must know something about making decisions; Texas is a largely Democratic state.
As a businessman-even if he wasn't a very good one- Bush knows all about being the guy at the top. You know, where the buck stops.
Al Gore has never in his life been the top dog. He has always had a group with whom to make decisions and the credit or blame was SHARED.
In business or in the Governors mansion, the top dog makes the call. If it's right, he's a hero(maybe) and if it's wrong, he is left swinging in the wind.
Bush has been there. Gore has not.
I don't see where Bush has proven that he can't handle things. From where I sit, it seems that he has more experience at running things than Gore.

troll

Subject: RE: BS: Innocents abroad?
From: mousethief
Date: 18 Dec 00 - 05:38 PM

The governor of Texas doesn't DO anything. It's the least powerful governorship in the 50 states. This is why, by his own admission, he only worked one and a half days a week.

Further, the whole south is turning Republican and the days of the yella-dog democrat are just about over.

He's never run ANYTHING successfully. He failed at business, and the governor doesn't run the state of Texas.

Alex

Subject: RE: BS: Innocents abroad?
From: Sorcha
Date: 18 Dec 00 - 06:52 PM

It has been my observation, over the years, that Candidates promise many things, or some things. Then, when the Candidate becomes the President, s/he finds that the System is so in control that very few major changes are actually possible. I am beginning to believe, that yes, our president is only a figure head, very much along the lines of HRH. Prez tries to mount a campaign against firearms--enter Chuckie Heston and NRA. Prez tries to revamp health system--enter AMA and HMO's. Prez tries to stop a war somewhere--enter Pentagon, CIA, Boeing, Morton Thiokol and State.

I think that the President really has very little power of his own.........It is the big money lobbyists who really control this country. Cynic? you bet.

Subject: RE: BS: Innocents abroad?
From: Skeptic
Date: 18 Dec 00 - 07:01 PM

Alex

Not quite the whole south. Until this year, Florida was considered a safe republican state.

Troll, The issue is the group of advisors both of them have. I mean (BG) Gore's got all those liberals and god knows, put three of us in a room and we'll come up with ten solutions, none of them having anything to do with where we started. Conversely, the harm done is far less. Bush and his advisors have a very clear idea of what they want. Sadly, what they want will probably do great harm to the environment and make his supporters lots of money. The social programs that Gore might propose may do harm (in your opinion). That harm is reverseable. The harm Bush can do is far worse and less fixable. IMO

Lets by all means privatize Social Security. Great windfall for all the brokers (who tend to be big money republicans but probably just a coincidence), whether the market is up or down. As long as it sup, recipients are fine, when it goes down, they lose. What if we have the equivalent of the Savings and Loan fiasco? We can always get Neil Bush to run the program, just to make sure.

Or talking about his commitment to healthcare for everyone. A speech (in Ohio I think), was on the same day a Federal Judge ruled that Texas was in violation of Federal law and illegally denying medicaid to citizens. On the order of the Govornor. Not lying? Or perhaps a just a difference of opinion.

Gore lies? So does Bush. Look at his statements on the level and quality of education in Texas. (And while the Govornor of Texas has limited legislated power, he has fairly wide discretion in political patronage, which means a whole lot of people are beholden to him). But it gives him great deniability. Gore takes credit for things he didn't do, Bush denies responsibility for thing she did. And the difference is....?????

My problem with Bush (as you know) is that he seems to be an elitist without a sense of noblesse oblige. I don't think he is stupid. Lets face it, coming across as well educated (even if you are) isn't a big plus in Texas politics. You dislike the group around Gore. I deeply distrust the group around Bush. Gore may do harm. Bush almost certainly will. (IMO)

Lets remember another time. And a democratic government that was going to remake the world. Brought in lots of high powered business men. The Brightest and the Best. They viewed government as a big problem in management. forgetting that what they were managing were people, not statistics. In Bush and his advisors and backers, I see the same blindness and indifference and basic snobbery.

It really does help get through all this if you're a cynic about politicians. You have such a low opinion of them and they rarely disappoint.

Regards John

Subject: RE: BS: Innocents abroad?
From: InOBU
Date: 18 Dec 00 - 09:01 PM

Now let me begin by appolgising to all the Argintinian mudcatters I am going to insult, at the time of the incident, it was a VERY different Argentina... So...
As to Bush being top dog in Texass...
I was sitting with some brother Brehons at a meeting of the Brehon Law Society (Irish American Lawyers) Some fellow was presneting a huge book thousands of pages, about the work that the Irish had done in esptabishing Argentina... Billy Browne the father of the Argentinian navey and the like. I turn to the fellow sitting next to me and I say, "all that work, and all they could come up with is Argentina?"
Now, if I was looking for a place to have a nice seat in an electric chair, I'd not think twice - TEXAS! but, well, as far as an example of a powerful exectutive branch government.... the sound of crickets and me with a blank look as I try to think of some way of not sounding like I have prejudices about the state of Texas while you all waite for an answer...
Now to our Scotian bretherin. I believe you. Who the hell would ever claime to be GWB, other than GWB and maybe our brother Troll, but I believe he is a wee bit old and well spoken to fool us if he tried to pass him self off as Bush the younger. So, we are left with the following possibilities. He ingested something powerfull enough to erase the memory, Hmmmm, not a bad theory...
He is embarassed to have found himself in a nation of drag queens who fancy themsleves Catholic School girls (his interpretations, not mine, I even wear a kilt on occation and I AM straight! No kidding! Ask my wife! ask my gay pals who get angry when I get my photo taken at ILGO rallys and they dont!!!)
He was on some secret mission at the behest of his CIA father... unlikely, his father wouldn't trust him, and what of stratigic value is in Scotland other than cannon fodder and anti freeze?
Well, I am going on too long... I think we should let Bush know that we will remove from his many negatives the claim that he has never been in Europe... OH waite... maybe he doesn't know Scotland is "overseas" "Afterall, Daddy I took a plane to get there, not a boat!"
Cheers
Larry

Subject: RE: BS: Innocents abroad?
From: CarolC
Date: 18 Dec 00 - 09:42 PM

"To handle the little details."

--troll

I don't know, troll. Those words "little details" just sent really big shivers down my spine.

Carol

Subject: RE: BS: Innocents abroad?
From: Troll
Date: 18 Dec 00 - 09:52 PM

I would NEVER claim to be from Texas.
"Texas! Where the cactus grows, the wind blows, the oil flows, and the farmer owes. A place where you'll see more rivers with less water, more cows that give less milk,more trees with less shade and meet more people that you'll think less of than any other state in the union!" Woody Guthrie
I'm a North Carolinian born and bred as have been my fathers for seven generations.
Pretend to be a Texan indeed! I'd as soon pretend to be a Campbell!

troll **in a high dudgeon. (the low one's in the shop)**

Subject: RE: BS: Innocents abroad?
From: InOBU
Date: 18 Dec 00 - 09:57 PM

My brother used to work near to Texas... he taught math at the University in Austin, they would talk about leaving Austin to go to Texas... - Larry

Subject: RE: BS: Innocents abroad?
From: jeffp
Date: 19 Dec 00 - 10:24 AM

A former co-worker (an Oklahoman) used to say about finding Texas, "You go west until you smell it, then turn south until you step in it." 'Nuff said.

jeffp