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Subject: RE: Analysis of Raglan Road From: Frank McGrath Date: 24 Jan 01 - 06:58 PM Just a quick note as I love Kavanagh and his poetry. They are specil to me. As a very little boy we lived on Lower Baggott St. Dublin nor far from Raglan Road. We actually lived over a pub, and it was often frequented by Kavanagh and his peers of the time. I was too young to be allowed "downstairs" in the evening time when the pub would be busy but often, on the way home from school or when out for a walk I would see Patrick Kavanagh. My father had pointed him out as someone special but it wasn't until many years later that I realised who this grumpy old man was. He always seemed so alone. I never rememer him in the company of others. Later, when I began to have an interest in his writing and he was long dead I discovered that my childish instincts were very keen. He was a very lonely man and a very unhappy man. He loved women - but they did not love him. He had no social skills. Raglan Road is a poem of unrequited love or even more accurately, hopeless infatuation. Kavanagh loved a lady who was another mans wife (a very prominent person too). He knew from the start that his love would not be returned but he couldn't help himself - he loved her from afar. Frank |
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Subject: RE: Analysis of Raglan Road From: Mark Cohen Date: 24 Jan 01 - 05:56 PM By the way, a note to Joe or Max or whomever, I suggest this thread go into the "Classic Mudcat threads" collection, wherever that may be -- it's been wonderful following it. Done. -Joe Offer- |
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Subject: RE: Analysis of Raglan Road From: Mark Cohen Date: 24 Jan 01 - 05:54 PM Margaret, I'd check out Dick Gaughan's rendition. I think he does justice to the poetry. I think it's on "Coppers and Brass", but I'm often wrong. Mark |
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Subject: RE: Analysis of Raglan Road From: Amergin Date: 24 Jan 01 - 01:21 PM Personally, I have always felt that analysism (sp?) kills the joy and beauty of the poem.....I hated mine being analysed in my poetry classes, it just ruins the magic the words hold.... |
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Subject: RE: Analysis of Raglan Road From: pict Date: 24 Jan 01 - 01:14 PM Give me Brendan Behan any day. |
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Subject: RE: Analysis of Raglan Road From: Margaret V Date: 24 Jan 01 - 12:17 PM Many thanks to all for these interesting perspectives on the song. Can anyone point me in the direction of early (say, 1950s) recordings of it? Thanks. Margaret |
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Subject: RE: Analysis of Raglan Road From: Noreen Date: 24 Jan 01 - 12:11 PM I heard a discussion in a pub after this song was sung, wish I could remember all the details. But far from being a Pygmalion-type story, Kavanagh was indeed a drunken, 'grumpy old git' who knew that she was too good for him, and that's why there was no future in the relationship. She did indeed go on to better things, married well... I'd love to hear more details. Noreen |
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Subject: RE: Analysis of Raglan Road From: jonilog Date: 24 Jan 01 - 11:20 AM I have a songbook called " The Place in the Song " in which there is an article about the song written by someone called Benedict Kiely.He claimed that he was present the first time the song was sung.Kavanagh worked beside him in a newspaper office in Dublin .He states that Kavanagh wrote the song in the office and there was an impromptu performance by a quartet of those present at the time.He knew the woman in the song. To quote" But the point was that the historian and myself knew the lovely lady referred to in the song. She was in college with us. And by showing us the song the poet was most intimately , making his statement." |
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Subject: RE: Analysis of Raglan Road From: GUEST,guinnesschik (blushing at the compliment) Date: 24 Jan 01 - 11:10 AM I've heard the song done many different ways, and I have to credit you guys with having a bit more insight into it than I do, but I'd also have to say that I believe them all to be true to a certain extent. I have always viewed "Raglan Road" as being bittersweet, full of longing and yearning, but with a dark twist. Ive always viewd it as somewhat of a Pygmalian (sp?) story, where the poet falls madly in love (or lust) with an uneducated type, tries to create her persona, and fails. It is important to understand a song, in part, to sing it, but it's what you believe about the song that makes it yours. |
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Subject: RE: Analysis of Raglan Road From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 24 Jan 01 - 11:04 AM You certainly need to understand what a song or a poem is about. But this does not mean you always need to pin down the imagery - images are fluid, and ambiguous, and don't work like painting by numbers.
And the writer of a song or poem isn't necessarily the final authority, songs and poems can take on a meaning that might not have been in their mind at all, and that new meaning, given to it by the people who pick it up and pass it on is equally valid. Johnny I hardly knew ye is a case in point.
Fergie's comment about the lady having a job in a bakery in a bakery has the smack of truth about it, and if so it's a charming little touch for Patrick Kavanagh to have put in the reference - but that's only the beginning of the sense of the phrase, in the context.
It provides a hint of formality and majesty, maybe it suggests that it's all a game on her part, it suggests a down-to-earth practicality about her, with flour up to the elbows.
Again "I not making hay" simultaneously suggests that he knows he's wasting time on this, when he should be writing poems or whatever, and also that he is a long way from where he came from in the country, stuck in the city.
Put the two together, and he's a peasant and she's a queen, and it's a fairy story.
And so on and so forth. The images are multi-faceted. |
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Subject: RE: Analysis of Raglan Road From: JedMarum Date: 24 Jan 01 - 10:34 AM Our own Mudcatter, "guinesschik" does just a kick ass, bluegrass flavored version of this song. I'll point her to the thread so she can add her two cents! |
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Subject: RE: Analysis of Raglan Road From: GUEST,leeneia Date: 24 Jan 01 - 09:57 AM I have a thought on one troublesome line, as follows. I have a recording of this by the Boys of the Lough, and it seems to go, "I sat like Grief be (which can mean "by" in an Irish dialect) a fallen leaf..." In Europe in earlier decades it was very common for a grave to be decorated with a memorial statue or tablet featuring allegorical women named "Grief" or "Patience". These figures expressed the family's sense of loss. (Have you ever heard the old simile, "...like Patience on a monument, staring at Grief?") To finish, I think the line means that the poet sat silent and still a long time, as it happens, near a fallen leaf and at dawn. Why is the line at the beginning of the poem rather than the end? It's because of the tyranny of rhymes and meter, that's why. --------- As for the poet feeling "gutted, betrayed and used..." (earlier thread), that's going rather far! She didn't get him started on heroine or turn his family into the Nazis, you know. I have always thought that the poet's biggest problem is not rejection, but shame -- that he went too far, too hard, sexually. Perhaps nearly raped her. That's why she walks hurriedly away at the end, and that's the reason for the references to clay, etc. Shame is a lot harder on us than sadness. |
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Subject: RE: Analysis of Raglan Road From: GUEST,John Hill Date: 24 Jan 01 - 09:17 AM I've been trying to understand this song for ages.. reading through this has helped a lot.. thanks.. I don't agree at all with the person that suggested that it isn't necessary to understand a song to sing it. How can you sing a song with any conviction if you don't know what its about? |
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Subject: RE: Analysis of Raglan Road From: Seany Date: 24 Jan 01 - 08:40 AM Thanks everyone for your contributions, I think he sounds a bit full of himself and arrogant but I can identify with the sentiments expressed in the song as I am guilty of being like that too.
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Subject: RE: Analysis of Raglan Road From: GUEST,Fibula Mattock Date: 24 Jan 01 - 06:49 AM Kavanagh was a grumpy old git apparently. It is alledged that he used to spit on the seat beside him on the bus so no one would sit there and disturb him. He lies in the "stony grey soil of Monaghan" in the graveyard at Iniskeen, where my grandfather and my uncle are also buried. |
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Subject: RE: Analysis of Raglan Road From: mcpiper Date: 24 Jan 01 - 06:17 AM Just an aside from the poem, a wee story about the author himself. A mate of mine, blues player Mike Brosnan told me his grandfather used to drink with Kavanagh, and reckoned Kavanagh told him he had only ever had one happy day in his life. Sort of goes with the poem. mcpiper |
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Subject: RE: Analysis of Raglan Road From: Lady McMoo Date: 24 Jan 01 - 04:31 AM When this poem was first published in 1946 it was entitled "Dark haired Myriam ran away". I'd say therefore, like others above that the poem is about the poet's ill-fated love for a local girl. The "still making hay" reference is clearly a reference to Kavanagh's own country roots. Kavanagh lived in Pembroke St., Dublin, close to Raglan Road, from 1946 (the date of the poem) until 1958 and then at 19 Raglan Road itself from 1958 to 1959. Peace mcmoo |
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Subject: RE: Analysis of Raglan Road From: Jimmy C Date: 24 Jan 01 - 12:18 AM I will go along with a combination of JonW and Fergie. Kavanagh knows the woman is not good for him but he throws caution to the wind and starts a relatonship anyway. I think perhaps she may have been a bit iof a hooker. The queens of Hearts I think refers to Dublin city and the tarts are the hookers in that area ?. The secret sign may have been some attempt by Kavanagh to educate this woman about some of the finer things in life. Later after the affair has ended he still sees her walking the streets. I guess only Kavanagh knows for sure, but it is an interesting exercise trying to read his mind.
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Subject: RE: Analysis of Raglan Road From: Mark Cohen Date: 23 Jan 01 - 08:17 PM Well, I'll vote for Fergie on this one. Sounds absolutely right, given the song...and I suspect inside information. I just love the Mudcat! Aloha, Mark |
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Subject: RE: Analysis of Raglan Road From: Fergie Date: 23 Jan 01 - 07:46 PM This song is about a women Kavanagh had a fling with, she worked in a bakery called Roberts hence the referance to baking tarts, he was a farmers son hence making hay,Raglan rd and the enchanted way are names of streets in the part of dublin where he lived at the time. The other referances are concerned with poetic vision, language and licence. in the end it finished badly for Kavanagh he felt gutted, betrayed and used, but it inspired him to write this beautiful poem/song to the air of of a very old Irish melody called 'Fainne geal an lae' which loosely translates as 'the dawning of the day'. |
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Subject: RE: Analysis of Raglan Road From: zander (inactive) Date: 23 Jan 01 - 01:35 PM I bow to Wolfgang, it really is better to understand what you are singing, apologies to Seany. Dave |
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Subject: RE: Analysis of Raglan Road From: Seany Date: 23 Jan 01 - 12:22 PM Interesting reponse - thankyou. V2. I think he is likening a male/female relationship to a deep ravine. As he preceives the relationship in this light to begin with it is no wonder it fails (see also the predicted grief in v1) He expects this woman to have the same feelings towards things as he does but she maybe doesn't respond in the right way. He really wants someone who preceives and feels exactly the same way as he does i.e. himself. As a result the relationship fails. |
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Subject: RE: Analysis of Raglan Road From: Jon W. Date: 23 Jan 01 - 11:49 AM v1 - He knows he's going to be in for some heartbreak but the pain is inconsequential compared to the pleasure v2 - The situation is precarious - he might fall off the edge at any minute. Time is passing in his frivolous pursuit of this woman. v3 - He's sculpted, painted, and wrote poetry for this gal. v4 - The affair is over now - it has ended as he knew all along it would. He has some regret that he has temporarily left the sublimity of pure art for worldly pleasures. All this of course, is just my opinion of the song's meaning. What does it mean to you? |
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Subject: RE: Analysis of Raglan Road From: AndyG Date: 23 Jan 01 - 10:52 AM v1 I saw the danger Yet I walked Along the enchanted way And I said, let grief be a fallen leaf At the dawning of the day
v2
v3
AndyG |
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Subject: RE: Analysis of Raglan Road From: MartinRyan Date: 23 Jan 01 - 10:18 AM Click here for a start, Seany! I'd sit on the fence between Dave and Wolfgang on this one. Certainly it often helps to understand a song if you want to deliver it convincingly - God knows I've heard more than enough cases of people singing Irish songs in ways that did no justice to the song, through apparent lack of understanding. On the other hand - its a two-way process. As you sing it and tease it out, you learn more about it. If the "analysis" becomes an end in itself, it kills the song just as efficiently as ignorance. Regards p.s. There are also, of course, some songs we sing just because we don't really understand them - we just try to preserve the mystery. |
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Subject: RE: Analysis of Raglan Road From: Pinetop Slim Date: 23 Jan 01 - 10:15 AM Way I heard the story, the song sets the story of Charles Stuart Parnell's affair with Kitty O'Shea to the tune of Dawning of the Day. If that's true, some of the symbolism might deal with the Irish-English politics of the late 1800s. |
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Subject: RE: Analysis of Raglan Road From: Wolfgang Date: 23 Jan 01 - 10:03 AM Sorry, Seany, I can't contribute from lack of knowledge but I want to say that I have often profited much from Mudcat discussion abotu song. Dave (zander), I disagree. In some cases (not in all cases, I admit), knowing about the background of a song or knowing what it was about has even helped me to sing it slightly different in inflection, phrasing, tempo etc. For instance, since I have learned here, that 'Johnny I hardly knew you' was not an anti-war song, as I had wrongly presumed, but a spiteful song by a left lover, I haven't sung the song in the same way as before. Wolfgang |
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Subject: RE: Analysis of Raglan Road From: zander (inactive) Date: 23 Jan 01 - 09:50 AM Don't analyse it, just sing it. Dave |
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Subject: Lyr Add: RAGLAN ROAD (Patrick Kavanagh)^^^ From: Seany Date: 23 Jan 01 - 09:19 AM I am trying to understand the poem Raglan Road by Patrick Kavanagh before I sing the song. I need to know the accepted interpretation of the following lines.(full lyrics included at end of message) verse 1 "And I said, let grief be a fallen leaf at the dawning of the day" Does he mean that although he suspects that things will go wrong he is going to forge onwards regardless because he is a slave to his passion? Verse 2 what does he mean by 'of the deep ravine where can be seen the worth of passion's pledge'? and why is the Queen of Hearts making tarts and why is he not making hay? verse 3 What does he mean by 'secret sign' that is known to artists who have known the true gods of sound and stone? lyrics below :- RAGLAN ROAD (Patrick Kavanagh) On Raglan Road on an autumn day I saw her first and knew That her dark hair would weave a snare That I might someday rue I saw the danger Yet I walked Along the enchanted way And I said, let grief be a fallen leaf At the dawning of the day On Grafton Street in November We tripped lightly along the ledge Of the deep ravine Where can be seen The worth of passion's pledge The Queen of Hearts still making tarts And I not making hay Oh I loved too much And by such and such Is happiness thrown away I gave her gifts of the mind I gave her the secret sign That's known to the artists Who have known the true gods of sound and stone And word and tint, I did not stint, I gave her poems to say. With her own name there and her own dark hair Like clouds over fields of May. On a quiet street where old ghosts meet I see her walking now Away from me so hurriedly my reason must allow That I had wooed not as I should A creature made of clay - When the angel woos the clay he'd lose His wings at the dawning of the day.^^^ |
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