Who wrote ' Dirty Old Town '

Subject: RE: Who wrote ' Dirty Old Town '
From: Steve Parkes
Date: 21 Mar 11 - 01:33 PM

Don't forget that other popular traditional Irish song, The Shores of Erin!

Subject: RE: Who wrote ' Dirty Old Town '
From: Raggytash
Date: 21 Mar 11 - 02:05 PM

I always thought that Hanky Park was demolished and replaced by Salford Precinct, some distance from Lower Broughton. My mate's family had an electrical business on Lower Broughton Road, not far from the cliff. My Mum taught at St James Infant School from about 1969 to 1990, some of you good people were probably taught by her

Subject: RE: Who wrote ' Dirty Old Town '
From: GUEST,laszlo
Date: 21 Mar 11 - 02:34 PM

I first heard "Dirty Old Town" in the 60's, sung by the Spinners who were based in Liverpool but the singer (of this song) was Mick Groves who was from Manchester way. He sang "Salford wind", "Gasworks Croft"

Great song. What a character Ewan/Jimmy was? His life story would make a good movie. Who would play the lead role?

Subject: RE: Who wrote ' Dirty Old Town '
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 21 Mar 11 - 02:38 PM

It was indeed, Raggy. Pendleton rather than Broughton.

I think it is a cracking version too, harmonic minor. Seems much more swing influenced than folkie and, given the era, I suspect that is how it was originaly inteded to sound.

Did I mention before, or has anyone ever noticed, that none of the lines rhyme btw - Anyone know if that was intentional as well?

Oh, and as to Ewan McColl wrote it about the Salford area whiich is a part of Manchester. Go and wash your mouth out with warer - preferably from the Irwell. Salford is much older than Manchester. The young upstart is now only more famous because it made it's money on the cotton trade and it has a famous football team that plays closer to Salford than Manchester and stole it's 'Red Devils' name from Salford RLFC :-)

Cheers

D.

Subject: RE: Who wrote ' Dirty Old Town '
From: Dave Roberts
Date: 21 Mar 11 - 03:02 PM

As in so many of these matters I am guided by The Spinners, who (on the recording I have, at least), sing 'Salford Wind'. The story I heard was that Salford City Council, mindful of the City's image, objected to this supposed 'slur' and MacColl changed it to 'smoky wind' which is what he himself sings on the semi-jazz version I have on his 'greatest hits' CD,
Sorry if this has been mentioned before in this thread.

Subject: RE: Who wrote ' Dirty Old Town '
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 21 Mar 11 - 03:36 PM

I find it very unlikely that Salford council would have objected at that time, Dave, and even less likely that Ewan would have taken any notice! Still, it is one more theroy to throw in the pot :-)

D.

Subject: RE: Who wrote ' Dirty Old Town '
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Mar 11 - 07:28 PM

I was always under the impression that the song referred to Salford. Indeed, Wikipedia passes more than a passing hint to this:
Dirty Old Town

Subject: RE: Who wrote ' Dirty Old Town '
From: harmonic miner
Date: 22 Mar 11 - 06:15 AM

There are of course songs that were indeed 'traditional' and were never recorded or written down. Then someone does record/write them down and claims (legally in some cases) to be the author or at least copyright holder.

Not saying that's the case with Dirty Old Town but it has happenned a lot

Subject: RE: Who wrote ' Dirty Old Town '
From: GUEST,Desi C
Date: 22 Mar 11 - 07:20 AM

Indeed Mick, I assumed for many years that Fiddler's Green was an Irish song, but later learned that John Connolly is an English guy from Lincolnshire I believe, and as with Dirty Old Town, it's considered an Irish song by most back home

Subject: RE: Who wrote ' Dirty Old Town '
From: GUEST,henryp
Date: 22 Mar 11 - 07:24 AM

There's also The Old Dungarvan Oak recorded by Daniel O'Donnell, but originally written by Frank Hennessy as The Old Carmarthen Oak.

Long ago, broadsheet printers had the same urge to link songs to local places.

Subject: RE: Who wrote ' Dirty Old Town '
From: GUEST,susanc
Date: 28 Mar 11 - 12:42 PM

I always thought "Springs a girl on the street at night" referred to a prostitute. Am I the only one? Glad that it's settled that the town is Salford. I always thought it was Glasgow and a friend thought it was Dublin.

Subject: RE: Who wrote ' Dirty Old Town '
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 28 Mar 11 - 02:36 PM

Am I the only one?

Probably, Susan :-) Made me laugh anyway. There is a multiple meaning - IE Spring is like a girl or a girl springs from nowhere - But I never linked a third meaning. It will never be the same again...

DeG

Subject: RE: Who wrote ' Dirty Old Town '
From: GUEST,Peadar (formerly) of Portsmouth
Date: 28 Mar 11 - 03:20 PM

Actually, I've thought that as well Susan...but then I'm a bit twisted.

:-)

Subject: RE: Who wrote ' Dirty Old Town '
From: GUEST,Alan Whittle
Date: 29 Mar 11 - 10:57 AM

And when you tell people that he changed his name to Roger Miller and recorded King of the Road and England Swings like a Pendulum-doo - people simply won't believe you.

Subject: RE: Who wrote ' Dirty Old Town '
From: Dave Roberts
Date: 29 Mar 11 - 11:22 AM

So have I, Susan.

Subject: RE: Who wrote ' Dirty Old Town '
From: GUEST,Alan whittle
Date: 30 Mar 11 - 02:52 AM

Also you never saw him in the same room at the same time as the popular singer Ned Miller, who famously sang 'From a Jack to a King'.

Of his later career as a French footballer named Roger Miller, of that there is little question. However experts differ as to whether he was also working under the name Bob Miller and the Millermen in the BBC radio programme ....Parade of the Pops. On the face of it - not likely - but so rich in musical possibilities - how can we ignore this avenue of research?

The Miller name is the only clue we have as to these activities, and that's why its SO important to keep mentioning what Ewan's real name was.

A big thankyou to all who have strived with the culturally important work of keeping this tradition alive. One day your diligence and devotion, in a largely uncaring world, will reap its reward with a special mention in the Folkmusic 101 course.

Subject: RE: Who wrote ' Dirty Old Town '
From: Dave Sutherland
Date: 30 Mar 11 - 03:31 AM

I too thought this Susan; in fact when I first saw The Spinners perform it around 1967 I'm sure that they also inferred the same.

Subject: RE: Who wrote ' Dirty Old Town '
From: Rusty Dobro
Date: 30 Mar 11 - 04:05 AM

Later, of course, he started the Steve Milli Band, very popular in Islington.

Subject: RE: Who wrote ' Dirty Old Town '
From: Smedley
Date: 30 Mar 11 - 04:48 AM

Given that it was set in Salford (renamed Weatherfield), 'Coronation Street' had a very Dirty Old Town feel in its early days - smoke coming out of chimneys, mucky doorsteps ans windowsills always neded cleaning.

As for Salford v. Manchester, I was taken on a tour of the 'border' by a Salfordian once but it was very confusing!

Subject: RE: Who wrote ' Dirty Old Town '
From: GUEST,Alan Whittle
Date: 30 Mar 11 - 05:00 AM

Yes its hard to overstate the importance of this artist and his contribution to children's television under his alter ego of Windy Miller of Camberwick Green.