Out of tune

Subject: Out of tune
From: GUEST,Eleonore
Date: 17 Feb 01 - 06:38 AM

I can not find a way to make my students sing in tune. Many of my students in the choir can not sing the pitches that I give. They do not sing at the pitch I request them. They are out of tune. What can I do for this?

Subject: 'Tone Deaf'
From: Bernard
Date: 17 Feb 01 - 06:47 AM

As a teacher, I became aware that there is no such thing as being 'tone deaf'.

Some people have more difficulty controlling the pitch of their voice than others, but it is control that can be learned.

They will learn best if it is not drawn to their attention too much, as self-confidence is an integral part of the 'problem'.

Make sure that the 'problem' singers are between two 'strong' singers, and they will be pulled into tune over a period of time. Use plenty of silly voice exercises - they are fun, as well as educational, and they will learn.

My experience is mostly with middle juniors, but my church choir had early teens, too.

Don't tell anyone they can't sing. A teacher told me that when I was nine, and I've never forgiven her. Now I make money from singing - so much for her opinion!!

Subject: RE: Out of tune
From: Firecat
Date: 17 Feb 01 - 08:08 AM

Well, I sometimes get accused of being out of tune, as does my boyfriend. In fac, when we were in choir at school, theteacher got so sick of him singing out of tune she made him sing the bit on his own. Mind you, he's got a bass voice and she was trying to get him to sing tenor!! She also tried to get me to sing alto when I'm a soprano!!

Don't worry, they WILL get the hang of it before too long. Just make them repeat the phrase over and over again till they get it right. that's what my old choir teacer did and eventually everyone did the phrase correctly just to shut her up!!!!!!!!

Subject: RE: Out of tune
From: kendall
Date: 17 Feb 01 - 08:41 AM

My friend, Gordon Bok was told that he was a monotone when he was in grammar school.

Subject: Choir practice...
From: Bernard
Date: 17 Feb 01 - 09:56 AM

When I was nine, the teacher told me I couldn't sing, and I believed her, so didn't bother trying.

When I was eleven, at grammar school, the music teacher got us all singing, then walked around the class. In his broad Glaswegian brogue he would point some of us out 'You, laddie!' (it was an all-boys school). Those chosen were press-ganged into the school choir, which was very highly respected in the area. And I was chosen...

I learned to sight-read from sheet music 'by mistake'. I didn't realise everyone else was following the words and listening to the vocal part being hammered out on the piano - no, I was following the tadpoles. A fortunate mistake, because it taught me to read music in the best possible way - as a result, I became a mutli-instrumentalist.

A teacher can make or break a musician, but talent will often shine through despite the teacher.

Subject: RE: Out of tune
From: catspaw49
Date: 17 Feb 01 - 11:58 AM

I suggest you beat them severely about the head and shoulders and for those who don't fall in line at that point, administer a Fleet enema. Anyone left who can't carry a tune shoud be flogged and given a bucket to carry the tune in. If none of this works, reach down their throat and rip out their vocal cords and tongue.

Seriously folks, how many of these silly ass requests are we going to play? Its the latest flame thing to hit the Mudcat. Guest poster asks ridiculous question and we all bite and are very helpful. We've had about a dozen or so of these, all worded in exactly the same style, all done under different names (sometimes used twice or three times), and all complete sendups! Eleonore, Spaceman, whatever the name, the post is the same. Generally its a teacher of some sort asking a question that's inane at best. Some good discussions have emerged at times, but just know you're being had as far as the original poster goes. They're just having a bit of fun, seeing what we'll talk about.......and we'll talk about anything.

Spaw

Subject: RE: Out of tune
From: Bernard
Date: 17 Feb 01 - 02:27 PM

Sad, innit?!

Subject: RE: Out of tune
From: wdyat12
Date: 17 Feb 01 - 02:42 PM

Eleonore,

Why fight it? You could probably start the kids singing really beautiful dissonant harmonies. Just kidding. As a child I could never sing in tune with all the girls in the class and I still have trouble singing with others in church. I sing in tune with myself and occasionally do dissonant harmonies with other singers. You gotta go with what you got. I can just imagine your frustration trying to teach kids like me.

wdyat12

Subject: RE: Out of tune
From: GUEST,Astrid Gilberto
Date: 17 Feb 01 - 03:30 PM

Teach them to sing my favourite song: Desafinado

Subject: RE: Out of tune
From: catspaw49
Date: 17 Feb 01 - 03:37 PM

How about we teach you to spell your name? Okay Astrud?

Spaw

Subject: RE: Out of tune
From: AllisonA(Animaterra)
Date: 17 Feb 01 - 06:33 PM

Geez, 'Spaw, I figured someone very new at teaching was too embarrased to keep posting such simplistic questions under the same name so was using lots of different user names. There are so many worse ways they could be flaming, and here at least is an area I know something about! I can't do much when the questions are about obscure sources or intricate fingerings or weird and wonderful harmonies, but I do know how to teach the kiddies!
I will admit to staying away from this thread, because my reaction was "Yawn- here's another one. Let's see what someone else has to say". But I don't see any harm if someone is having us on, but maybe that's because getting the kids singing is near and dear to my heart!

Subject: RE: Out of tune
From: catspaw49
Date: 17 Feb 01 - 06:46 PM

And that's why I luv ya' Allison........You are a simply great and warm hearted person and I know how well you do with the kids. Like I said, we have had some good conversations out of these things and I agrre that as a kind of flame, its pretty innocuous. I think what bothers me is that although some of the conversations ARE good, some really fine folks like yourself are trying to give excellent advice to someone who is sitting back and having a laugh over it. Then again, that's OK....as long as you and the rest of us are enjoying the conversation.

Just get a little bent over this stuff at times.......sorry Al!!!

Spaw

Subject: RE: Out of tune
From: GUEST,obviously
Date: 17 Feb 01 - 11:15 PM

yada yada ya, spew brain. Fuck off and go play with yourself instead of screwing around with somebody who you think is flaming cause they're writing about, GASP! music.

THE WORLD IS COMING TO AN END!

OH NO!

WHAT WILL WE DO?

I'm sorry folks that you had to see this, it can't get any nastier, we're hitting rock-fucking-bottom now. People, filthily posing as flamers, are asking about music and kids voices! I mean really how sick can they be? Distracting all these vitally important mudcatters from their necessary enumeration of their pets, household furniture, and musical preferences. Intruding on in jokes and political diatribes to ask simple questions about silly, trite non-essentials such as singing and musical development. They must be unmasked and exposed AT ONCE!!! GET OUT THE FLAME THROWERS!!! BE AS RUDE AS ONLY YOU KNOW HOW TO BE!! INTRUDER ALERT!! INTRUDER ALERT!!! Shit! What viciousness has this diabolical evil of the internet spawned?

Subject: RE: Out of tune
From: Sorcha
Date: 17 Feb 01 - 11:30 PM

Way too many of these Teacher things lately, huh? One would think that a Real Teacher would not need to ask such questions......aren't they are dealt with in MusicEd? Gotta be the same idiot, doesn't it?

Even the fake broken English doesn't quite cut it. Just ridiculous garbage, and not even very funny. Wonder if it's ........ah, Oh well, never mind.

I can do this too, look,

Hi I am being a six years old violiner students, and my teaching wants me to being practiceing 3 days per hour, and one tune be learning every hour. Sometime my mami don't let me be taking so I has to cry before lesson. Sometiming I don't be want to going because other student at lessoner be harding on me why I am late and crying.

See, it's not that difficult. Gotta be flaming send ups. There are just too many of these lately.

Subject: RE: Out of tune
From: catspaw49
Date: 17 Feb 01 - 11:39 PM

LOL.....I dunno' which is funnier Sorcha.....your post or "obviously" the Pseudo-Guest's. But that imitation is hilarious!!!

Hey.....Wait a minute.......Was it you? (:<))

Spaw

Subject: RE: Out of tune
From: Jeri
Date: 18 Feb 01 - 08:40 AM

Spaw, has it ever occurred to you that it's the people who get their panties in a bunch over the guest posts that turn these things into flame wars?

Subject: RE: Out of tune
From: KingBrilliant
Date: 18 Feb 01 - 09:33 AM

Well I'm glad its a flamer thing - because I was getting a bit concerned about the kids that were coming into contact with someone who came across as pretty weird. I had begun to think it was a sinister weirdo posing as a music teacher in order to get close to the little kids.
My world is a nicer place now.

Kris

Subject: RE: Out of tune
From: Mr Red
Date: 18 Feb 01 - 10:42 AM

not much help for teenagers but I never sang till the wife left home.

Moral? It just needs the right motivation.

Subject: RE: Out of tune
From: Big Mick
Date: 18 Feb 01 - 11:40 AM

I am cracking up at the "GUEST,obviously" post. This person thinks folks around here can't see who it is. The oldest gag in the book. Post a phoney problem........then come to the rescue later. I have no problem with your opinion, I just don't agree........but do you need to be so insulting as to think that it isn't a transparent ploy to everyone?? This is NOT about music. It is about your opinion that the Mudcat has to look the way you want it to. How many times we got to go through this? Why don't you hook up with Conrad? You have much in common.

Subject: RE: Out of tune
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 18 Feb 01 - 05:50 PM

Funny, I thought that being seriously weird was a necessity for a music teacher.....

Mine were completely barking, all three of them... and one of them worked for the UK Atomic Energy Authority, having been turned down from Marks & Spencer!!

LTS

Subject: RE: Out of tune
From: Callie
Date: 18 Feb 01 - 08:04 PM

I'm not up on wo has been saying what to whom of late, so I am puzzled as to why a simple request for assiatnce has been treated with such rudeness.

I myself am interested in exercises to help choristers tune in with one another. It's a real problem and in no way connected with the 'people have been told they can't sing' syndrome.

Callie

Subject: RE: Out of tune
From: Rollo
Date: 18 Feb 01 - 09:43 PM

Spaw, I can understand cat veterans (compared to me, at least) are fed up with this flaming stuff... just keep cool and ignore threads like this... everytime you get angry there is some little creep sniggering, because he gets what he wanted. So what? If guest eleonore is real having a problem with singers, she gets advice. If some a**hole ignites his flame thrower, and no-one reacts agressive he soon will stop it because there 's no fun anymore. You know, it's the old "the other cheek" game. Just lean back, click out of the thread and get you some new beer from the fridge. you will soon find out your liver lasts longer this way *G*

Subject: RE: Out of tune
From: Burke
Date: 18 Feb 01 - 10:17 PM

Just to be a bit fussy here. It's not a flame. To be a flame you have to be lashing out at someone.

If they are fakes I think they fall into the class of a troll, fishing for a reaction. If they are for real there are places on the internet where there are a lot more experienced music teachers where the questions should be asked. These questions bother me because I find the idea of someone so ignorant of any music teaching methods actually trying to teach frightening. Unfortunatley when I hear people's stories about teachers & think of my own experience it is possible to take them as real. The real clue is that we're getting this pattern and no general explanation of the realy teaching situation.

Callie & guest (if you're for real) I recommend you try rec.music.makers.choral. That group is mainly music educators. Tell them the overall situation you are in & if they can't help you they can probably point you to a group that can.

Subject: RE: Out of tune
From: Bernard
Date: 19 Feb 01 - 03:52 AM

For the record, I have a teaching certificate, and one of my subjects at college was music. I taught music in schools for twelve years, and continued teaching privately until about a year ago.

I have been the organist at my local church for over thirty years, and we used to have a children's choir of around twenty singers until about eight years ago. The choir, in my opinion, was 'eroded away' by the introduction of the Saturday evening 'Vigil Mass', which resulted in families 'fulfilling their Sabbath obligation' on Saturday evening, rather than Sunday morning.

Church choirs are often organised by untrained volunteers, and it is not unreasonable for them to ask for help.

As for choristers being trained to sing in tune together versus those being told they cannot sing - you'd be surprised at how touchy people can be! Singling someone out, either as a good or bad example, can easily be misconstrued, and a skilled teacher learns to recognise (and minimise) the risk.

Mudcat is probably the first reference for many musicians who are not trained teachers, and are counting on the experience of others - not only for advice, but where else to look for advice.

I can give practical advice, but am not aware of websites which are available simply because I was not 'connected' when I was actively involved.

If, indeed, this thread is a 'flame', it doesn't matter - who really cares?! It has provoked comment, and has provided information that may well otherwise not have been posted.