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Help: Is Mudcat Really Open and Should It Be.
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Subject: Is Mudcat Really Open and Should It Be. From: Dave Wynn Date: 16 Mar 01 - 07:16 PM Now ..I realise I must be very careful in what I say. Some people don't like certain words. Some say we must allow every possible freedom to all persons and all opinions. I think (and I offer this as my opinion and not as a definitive statement) that the concept of total freedom is being prejudiced by some contributors who (for their own reasons and possibly good ones) don't want true freedom. The Pol Pot thread is a victim of this total freedom philosophy. When I posted as a pillock (Iarf) many months ago I recieved a PM that warned me that I was acting like a known trouble maker and told to be careful what I said. I made my reply to the person and let the incident die a natural death. I am now lead to believe from recent threads that whilst the owner of the Cafe wants total freedom maybe the residents don't. Please note that I am Spot the Dog (ex Iarf) and I am not trolling for flames or have a second agenda. I would like real opinions and would prefer logic rather than vitriol. I would also like to say that Mudcat (Max?) has created the only entity that has ever changed my political and philosophical mind. This is the reason for my question. Spot |
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Subject: RE: Help: Is Mudcat Really Open and Should It Be. From: Little Hawk Date: 16 Mar 01 - 07:24 PM Well, there will always be some posts that will offend some people. I find that if you can PM the person, it can usually be straightened out. You can't do that with "guests", however, so that's a problem area. I do think that the openess of Mudcat is more advantageous than not, all things considered. - LH |
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Subject: RE: Help: Is Mudcat Really Open and Should It Be. From: John Routledge Date: 16 Mar 01 - 07:26 PM Thank you Spot for raising this issue which has been concerning me for a couple of days. In the ideal world that most of us would like we would get a considered intelligent debate. Best wishes to everyone. John |
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Subject: RE: Help: Is Mudcat Really Open and Should It Be. From: Greyeyes Date: 16 Mar 01 - 07:47 PM I have avoided all the pp threads. Kat's "POst Here and let p.p. threads die" thread led me to look at some of them, and I was reassured that I had made the right decision. All I want to say is, sometimes people express opinions that seem repulsive and inexcusable to most of us. But if you deny them the right to express those views, you deny them the right to free speech. When I was a student the UK Student Union introduced a policy denying a platform to racists and sexists. I spoke against this policy as passionately as I could, to no avail. I pointed out that if you deny a platform to these people they will just find another platform that you have no control or influence over. Effectively you drive them underground and lose contact with them. If they are going to vent their spleen, it is better that they do it on OUR platform, so we know who they are and what they are saying. Eventually I just became embarassed that the National Union of Students in the UK did not support the basic principle of free speech. God forbid that the Mudcat Cafe should ever stoop so low. I hope Max ignores the clamour to exercise his powers of censorship. |
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Subject: RE: Help: Is Mudcat Really Open and Should It Be. From: Morticia Date: 16 Mar 01 - 07:56 PM I have to say that I am in broad agreement with ..." I may not agree with what you say, but I defend to the death your right to say it".I think the question that arose was should we be openly welcoming of people that have expressed racist, bigoted or discourteous views.The PP thread was an irony laden attack on those that welcome such people. Personally, no, I don't welcome them, I don't get excited by their strangely different views and I feel no urge to convert them to my values and beliefs.That being said, if you censor them, who else do you censor? If a thread or a poster offendeth thine eye, read not the thread nor the postings that offendeth thee. |
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Subject: RE: Help: Is Mudcat Really Open and Should It Be. From: GUEST Date: 16 Mar 01 - 08:03 PM Perhaps someone from Mudcat's inner clique could tell us what is acceptable. |
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Subject: RE: Help: Is Mudcat Really Open and Should It Be. From: hesperis Date: 16 Mar 01 - 08:08 PM From the Inner Clique? Sure! Nothing's acceptable unless we say it is! (Oh, wait, I'm not IN the Inner Clique...) |
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Subject: RE: Help: Is Mudcat Really Open and Should It Be. From: Ebbie Date: 16 Mar 01 - 08:14 PM Is there such a thing as a 'fringe' clique? When does something become a clique? Is an 'inner clique' kind of like the core to a baseball- the ball is separate from everything else, thus it is a clique. The core is part of the ball, but also separate; therefore it is the inner clique. Do I have that right? *G* Ebbie |
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Subject: RE: Help: Is Mudcat Really Open and Should It Be. From: catspaw49 Date: 16 Mar 01 - 08:21 PM The only way to assure your right to free speech is to assure everyone's right to free speech. Max keeps a very loose rein around here. I have expressed my opinions and they are only that....my opinions. I don't try to hurt anyone with my opinions but if they are hurt, so be it. I think Mav has both friends and enemies here and some have welcomed him....I didn't. So what? I believe the "welcome thread" was a bit of a troll by ol' Flattop who well knew the reaction it would bring. That's again, simply an opinion........again, you have yours, I have mine. The PolPot thread was piece of satire with a bit of irony thrown in. We've had far worse than any of this....but again, its simply my opinion. Max rarely gets involved with this type of thing unless it gets totally wacko. Like folk music, some of it is unpleasant and some expresses sentiments you find offensive while parts are beautiful and you agree with the truth of the lyric. Mudcat is simply a slice of that same thing. Enjoy what you can and offer what you will, take what you need, share what you can........and if you don't enjoy a thread, drop out of it. I can't tell you to be nice or friendly and some folks rarely are. I know a lot of the same in 3-D. Most around here are fine, caring, helpful, intelligent, talented, people with hearts of gold. Don't let the joint give you an ulcer or a heart attack. For me, most of life is a 2 category rating system-----1) Mildly Amusing, and 2) Pain in the Ass. Spaw |
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Subject: RE: Help: Is Mudcat Really Open and Should It Be. From: Greyeyes Date: 16 Mar 01 - 08:25 PM Ebbie, I have no idea what you are talking about. The structure of a baseball has no interest to me. But the principle of free speech on the Mudcat Cafe is a big deal to some of us. Personally I agree that a welcoming thread to a right wing bigot is inappropriate, but the way to express that opinion is not to censor it, but just to ignore the stuff you disapprove of. Threads are there to be ignored, or posted to as we deem appropriate. It's up to us, not Max. |
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Subject: RE: Help: Is Mudcat Really Open and Should It Be. From: Greyeyes Date: 16 Mar 01 - 08:28 PM Spaw, I wish I'd said that. |
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Subject: RE: Help: Is Mudcat Really Open and Should It Be. From: Greyeyes Date: 16 Mar 01 - 08:35 PM And another thing. The "Inner Clique" thing is just blatant thread creep. If "Guest" really wants to debate the clique issue, start a new thread and I'll be glad to express my views. |
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Subject: RE: Help: Is Mudcat Really Open and Should It Be. From: CarolC Date: 16 Mar 01 - 08:42 PM Hi Spot the Dog. You seem like a fine sort of fellow to me.
Personally I don't think Max cares what we talk about as long as we make an effort to get along. When people start warring in the Mudcat, it creates a lot of trouble for him.
This is what he said last August about his reason for the Mudcat:
The first reason for everything I do is always the same. THE POINT OF THIS WEB SITE IS HAPPINESS --Max |
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Subject: RE: Help: Is Mudcat Really Open and Should It Be. From: Matt_R Date: 16 Mar 01 - 08:50 PM C'mon people now Smile on your brother Everybody get together Try to love one another Right now... |
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Subject: RE: Help: Is Mudcat Really Open and Should It Be. From: Justa Picker Date: 16 Mar 01 - 09:16 PM I absolutely 100% believe in moderation and limited censorship of thread titles and posts within those threads, when the content is clearly and obviously designed to malign, offend, hurt and belittle. I don't give a goddam about "free speech" and the ensuing anarchy it creates if left unchecked. I also believe flamers should be warned once and then outed if their behaviour continues. I've made my feelings previously in an earlier post a while ago as well concerning the subject of anonymity. My $0.02 ...good thing I don't run this place, huh?... |
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Subject: RE: Help: Is Mudcat Really Open and Should It Be. From: campfire Date: 16 Mar 01 - 09:16 PM Spaw, again, well said (as you often are). Greyeyes, be careful there. Do we really want to start another clique debate? The only thing I'd care to add is that I find it "amusing" that often, some of the same people who claim others' posts to be offensive (not just in this particular case) would be the same ones that would defend their own writings with "if you don't like it, don't read it". campfire |
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Subject: RE: Help: Is Mudcat Really Open and Should It Be. From: Noreen Date: 16 Mar 01 - 09:20 PM Spot, I'm interested in your statement: I would also like to say that Mudcat (Max?) has created the only entity that has ever changed my political and philosophical mind. This is the reason for my question Care to elaborate? Noreen |
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Subject: RE: Help: Is Mudcat Really Open and Should It Be. From: Joe Offer Date: 17 Mar 01 - 01:54 AM Well, usually if there's censoring done, I do it - and I do it very rarely. Max is usually too busy and doesn't step in unless it's a real crisis, and the JoeClones aren't allowed to. Somebody complained in the Thread Name Gestapo thread about a thread renaming. I must have been the one who did it, and I can't for the life of me think what it was I changed (I did delete some HTML from a thread title yesterday - could that be it?). In limited circumstances, I will delete messages that personally attack or threaten another person. If there have been responses to the questionable message, I'm less likely to be willing to delete it. The Official Policy is that you are all big kids, and you should be able to take care of yourselves. In the FAQ, it is stated that we encourage you not to post in flame threads and not to respond to flame messages in any way. If you ignore that advice, don't come running to Max or me for protection. If you post in the MAV or Pol Pot threads, I figure you've made yourself fair game for the flamers in those threads. You will note that I post in flame threads only on very rare occasions. If I do, I usually will post in a different font color as an addition to an existing message, so I don't bring the thread to the top again. I always sign my comments, so you know who's talking. But no, we don't intend to police this Forum, except in very rare circumstances. You people are supposed to do that. If you have a complaint about something being "censored," ask me, and I'll tell you why I did it. If you can convince me I was unfair, I'll change it back. -Joe Offer- |
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Subject: RE: Help: Is Mudcat Really Open and Should It Be. From: The Shambles Date: 17 Mar 01 - 02:25 AM YES. |
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Subject: RE: Help: Is Mudcat Really Open and Should It Be. From: The Shambles Date: 17 Mar 01 - 02:27 AM AND YES. |
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Subject: WHO CARES?!?! From: Clinton Hammond Date: 17 Mar 01 - 02:50 AM This place is really needing that bran muffin again! |
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Subject: RE: Help: Is Mudcat Really Open and Should It Be. From: katlaughing Date: 17 Mar 01 - 03:59 AM Joe, I don't think they were referring to you having changed a thread title. I think they were referring to my asking mary garvey if we should start a petition asking that you change the pol pot thread title. I was simply asking her what might alleviate some of the pain she was feeling. Didn't do me any good, as she didn't answer back and then we got labelled the "Gestapo." NO ONE, anywhere, asked for censorship and I wish people would get off their alarm buttons about that! I also wish gutless wonders would just post under their regular Mudcat name, but that'll never happen until Max makes it so that you can't do a bunch of different names for multiple memberships. kat |
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Subject: RE: Help: Is Mudcat Really Open and Should It Be. From: Dave Wynn Date: 17 Mar 01 - 07:43 AM To answer Noreen... I am really a Conservative voting , slightly to the right kind of person but this Cafe has changed some of my opinions and taught me a little. I won't elaborate on specifics but I think a little more about people than I used to , as a direct result of reading and participating in the forum. I have also learned that there are a lot of people out there with better things to say than I had. This is how it changed my mind and that hasn't happened since I was in my adolescence. (any comments about me entering my dotage and it being to do with my age will be dealt with most severely by PM!!!) I think that as in all society there are some nice and some not so nice people (read Spaw's contribution) and I think we should tolerate the not so nice to more fully appreciate the nice. No censorship for me please..let it bleed. Spot |
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Subject: RE: Help: Is Mudcat Really Open and Should It Be. From: Mooh Date: 17 Mar 01 - 08:25 AM Matt. Right on! The longer I hang out here, the less I post to non-music threads. This isn't deliberate, but something I noticed when looking through my archives. I'm not sure whether I need to change or not. Anyway, time restrictions (bands, sessions, family, two jobs, house, other hobbies) prevent me from being more involved here and so I'm unable to enjoy the freedom available. I suppose it's not so much an issue for me if all I post to are guitar threads. Sigh. Clear as Mud, Cat? Mooh. |
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Subject: RE: Help: Is Mudcat Really Open and Should It Be. From: GUEST,Sam Pirt Date: 17 Mar 01 - 09:56 AM Hi Well I think you have brought up a good issue. I think that the boundaries of the personal expresion and the view's portrayed on the cat should be achnowledged and highlighted by its creators. Even though this may be seen as dictatorship I feel that because Mudcat is very special in the fact it permeates many different cultures, from the US to Australia to Iceland. It is a known fact that diffenet countrys carry with them different cultures (bullfighting, Soccer, American football, Bluegrass, Morris Dancing) and within each culture is a different level of acceptablity of paticular ways of putting things (EG Germans may be far more direct and to the point than the French, not all of course it was only an example) This means that if you were suppost to measure the cats input on the cultures of the people you would have loads of cultres to take into account) By Mudcat creating its own vertual culture that in some way can represent parts of other cultures to form a Vertual cyber culture that the mudcat has drawn up then this not only decides what is acceptable but also means there is only one culture to follow, if you get wahst I mean. At then end of the day it is people CHOICE if they enter posts into mudcat. They know that manay people from many countrys will look at there posts and if what they are portraying is unacceptable and may put someone at risk or harm or be blatently awful then should you post that? I hope I have not confused the issue but these are only my views from my culture. Cheers, Sam |
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Subject: RE: Help: Is Mudcat Really Open and Should It Be. From: Jeri Date: 17 Mar 01 - 10:17 AM This participant wants total freedom. Spot, your views may have changed because you were free to be a pillock. (And I still don't think you did anything horrible.) Other people have done far worse, and learned something from their freedom here. The people who start trouble have occasionally learned. The people who contribute may one day learn as well. My feeling is that this is a community with a laissez-faire dictator. We have to learn how to use self control to get along, because there is no authority figure telling us what we can and can't do. If there were someone telling us how to behave, we won't ever learn how to do it for ourselves. Honestly, some of the flame-bait messages sound like some 15 year old kid who's angry at the world got ahold of mommy or daddy's computer, and I can't for the life of me understand why supposedly rational adults keep falling for those messages. "See the nice hook. Shiny, tasty hook...yum." I think they must simply enjoy the arguing and don't really care how others feel about it, or their desire to say something is more important than the possible results of their post. These are only my wishes, and may not be anyone else's. I don't want to see thread names changed or posts edited or removed simply because the author is trying to get up someone's nose. I want us to learn how to effectively deal with those posts. I want people to be able to work things through in threads if there's a chance for understanding. I want people to be able to learn from mistakes. I want authors to be aware that we can all read their post several months or years from now, and perhaps think about whether what they write is something they will be proud of. I suspect if they were proud of what they had to say, they wouldn't be anonymous, but even then, they know what they wrote.
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Subject: RE: Help: Is Mudcat Really Open and Should It Be. From: nutty Date: 17 Mar 01 - 10:22 AM Only days ago a young man was being welcomed to Mudcat. This site is open to people of all ages as well as all cultures and denominations and I would not want it to be otherwise I also would not like to see the site become a place where parents might have reservations about letting their children visit ..... Mudcat is too important for that As with folk clubs .. if children are to be allowed in then we adults must act accordingly ... LIKE ADULTS |
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Subject: RE: Help: Is Mudcat Really Open and Should It Be. From: Jon Freeman Date: 17 Mar 01 - 10:40 AM Is Mudcat Really Open: I think it is as open as it can be - see Joe Offer's post. Should it be: The simple answer is yes as that's how Max wants it to be. I think to go any further, you need to decide what Mudcat is - is it a forum that is strictly about folk and blues (some would like it that way) or does it allow general topics? - The answer is obvious but given that Mudcat allows any subject, you have to face up to the fact that some topics or opinions will not please everyone and the lines of what is and isn't acceptable become more difficult to draw as one has to ask "acceptable to who?" Personally, I think that Max's policy is correct and I like it but it does mean that we all will see things we don't like from time to time - that, unfortunately is the price for freedom. As for threads you don't like, I'm not good at this but there is one simple answer: ignore them and they will dissappear. This lastest set of troubles has been quite amazing - instead of one thread that could have quietly dissapeared, we end up with 4 or 5 related threads and well over 100 posts. Mudcatters, collectively, can effectively censor unpopular topics by not responding to them - there is quite a lot of power in silence - many of us could perhaps do with learning to excercise our right of silence rather than our right of free speach. Jon |
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Subject: RE: Help: Is Mudcat Really Open and Should It Be. From: Amos Date: 17 Mar 01 - 11:46 AM Max isn't a laissez-faire dictator. He's a site owner. The site which he owns is generated by his machines using his code and maintained by his work. It provides us with a service and a value which we enjoy greatly, and it generates scads of great communication. All as it should be. But this is not a political proposition in the traditional sense, it is a generated service that provides communication channels to others. And given that he owns the site and does most of the work of keeping it there (with the fine support of JoeCo) he can state on what terms and in what ways he is gonne do it. Which he has. Which is, as open as we can make it. A |
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Subject: RE: Help: Is Mudcat Really Open and Should It Be. From: Jeri Date: 17 Mar 01 - 01:16 PM Amos, that's exactly what I meant by "laissez-faire dictator." He has the power to make rules and enforce them, and he makes very few rules. He may read these threads and consider what people have to say. He may be chagrined at all of us discussing how he should be operating this place. When it comes down to it, discussion about the way Mudcat should operate is moot. It operates the way Max wants it to. Jon, that's it in a nutshell. The flame wars and rancorous arguments don't consist of the one post that kicks them off. They consist of the several threads and several hundred posts that follow, because people have to say something. The only power we have to affect the way Mudcat operates is in how each one of us behaves while here. |
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Subject: RE: Help: Is Mudcat Really Open and Should It Be. From: Hawker Date: 17 Mar 01 - 01:36 PM Hi I have been 'hurt' by the responses to some of my questions, on here, responses which I felt were either insensitive or unnecessary, I am fairly new round here, but like all I have a point of view. If people are hurtful or even just damn stupid or ignorant, I tend to just but out and treat them with the contempt they deserve. I felt there was a note of sarcasm in the PP thread, and seeing as how I became a member of Mudcat to find out about folk, discuss such things, I am mindful that folk relates to all people and all opinions - like the thread I started about singing hunting songs, and I am happy to read other peoples opinions on all matters, but I may not respond. If all the people offended had ignored the PP thread, the source may just have crawled back under his stone and all this bad vibe wouldn't have happened Be happy while you're living, you're a long time dead Harbouring feelings of anger only makes you feel bad! Happy St Pat's Lucy |
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Subject: RE: Help: Is Mudcat Really Open and Should It Be. From: Amos Date: 17 Mar 01 - 01:49 PM Top of the Green to you all. It could be A WHOLE Lot Worse!! A |
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Subject: RE: Help: Is Mudcat Really Open and Should It Be. From: GUEST,Bruce O. Date: 17 Mar 01 - 02:05 PM Please, please again, use return email address to identify all postings. Every newsgroup I know of (open and subscription) does this. It does a lot to cut down on frivolous, malignant and other irresponsible postings. |
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Subject: RE: Help: Is Mudcat Really Open and Should It Be. From: GUEST,marty D Date: 17 Mar 01 - 02:06 PM Sometimes I simply don't know what the fuss is about. I know most of you have looked at other discussion groups on the net, but I think there are still some here who just don't realise how good we've got it. If seeing names like Pol Pot, Gestapo, or even Mav, upset you that much, why do you post in every thread where they're mentioned? Some of you several times. Without the ones who constantly complain and argue about the content, those threads would disappear in a day. The insensitive ones only start them. It's the good people who keep them going. Why? Martin |
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Subject: RE: Help: Is Mudcat Really Open and Should It Be. From: GUEST,Bruce O. Date: 17 Mar 01 - 03:07 PM I'm upset because when someone posts a request song or tune information, it takes nearly forever to do a Forum Seach through lots of crap to find the info! |
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Subject: RE: Help: Is Mudcat Really Open and Should It Be. From: John Routledge Date: 17 Mar 01 - 08:17 PM Thank you Marty D. Many of us would like the answer to your question. Sorry this posting slows down Searches. GB |
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Subject: RE: Help: Is Mudcat Really Open and Should It Be. From: Max Date: 17 Mar 01 - 09:39 PM It is quite fascinating reading about oneself from other people. I have several thoughts on this thread, some of which I shall share. One, the thread opens with the fine point of freedom. I find that the whole, original inquiry answers, and thereby ends, the discussion. The Mudcat may simple be a microcosm of life as we know it. Is there a true leader in life? Is there a rulebook for life? Do any of us have any other evidence other than what we see, hear and read around us, how to act, behave, and be welcomed within a group of our peers? Is not freedom the ability for civilization to manage itself? For who can make a decision for everyone? My leadership, perhaps only in retrospect, perhaps not, is libertarian, and is, yes, even feminist. While getting my BA in Philosophy, I always did think that I could do better than Plato's Republic. I must admit, I really enjoy this position. Amos and Marty D., you are right. What we have here now, sociologists would have figured impossible not long ago. Racism, Orientalism (Edward Said), historical prejudice (draft dodgers and vets, Catholics and Protestants let alone the pagans) and geographic isolation, would be plenty to quash our nice place here. The Internet now allows us to freely cross cultural, sociological, class, visual, linear, and even responsible barriers within community. The Mudcat even more so. What we have here is great. I continually challenge all of you to help me make it even better. I listen, I try, I do. And as for a slow search, that is my fault. I have known that community dilutes pure knowledge, and I always promised that I would continue to develop technology to compete with that. For I believe that, at very least in this genre, community is the knowledge. What is history without the participants? I've bared my ass here, and I'm proud of it, because it's real, because it's me. Who are you? |
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Subject: RE: Help: Is Mudcat Really Open and Should It Be. From: Jande Date: 17 Mar 01 - 10:03 PM Max: "I've bared my ass here, and I'm proud of it, because it's real, because it's me. Who are you?" I am one who appreciates what you have created, Max. I love it here. Though I don't get to read or post as much as I'd like due to time /work considerations, I think it's great to have a place where people can post their opinions and other peple can respond with their own, with their thoughts with their feelings, etc. To me this is real freedom. If you say something that hurts me I can say "ouch!" and you can reply what you want, or not reply at all. threads can grow or die, but this place is a place where real people talk to each other and listen to each other, etc. (or talk and get ignored, whatever...) It's real. And I thank you, Max. ~ Jande (Seanna Rowe) |
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Subject: RE: Help: Is Mudcat Really Open and Should It Be. From: dick greenhaus Date: 17 Mar 01 - 11:51 PM Ah, don't pay any attention to the guy behind the curtain... |
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Subject: RE: Help: Is Mudcat Really Open and Should It Be. From: Amos Date: 18 Mar 01 - 12:56 AM Ah, Max, c'mon. You really wanna bare your ass, go open source and post all your IP#s; and put the Admin instructions in a permathread. No, don't! Don't. I think I like you just the way you are!!! A |
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Subject: RE: Help: Is Mudcat Really Open and Should It Be. From: John Routledge Date: 18 Mar 01 - 03:54 PM I too am one who appreciates what has been created. Thank you Max your post sums it all up. This has been one of the most worthwhile threads I have read in a while.Let's keep it up. |
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Subject: RE: Help: Is Mudcat Really Open and Should It Be. From: fat B****rd Date: 18 Mar 01 - 04:05 PM I've hardly ever had a response or a reply to anything but I will continue to check out the MUDCAT every day and more power to all of us All the best and keep on inner cliquing fB |
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Subject: RE: Help: Is Mudcat Really Open and Should It Be. From: CarolC Date: 18 Mar 01 - 04:23 PM Hi fat B****rd. Love your screen name. Carol |
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Subject: RE: Help: Is Mudcat Really Open and Should It Be. From: Seamus Kennedy Date: 18 Mar 01 - 04:42 PM Max, does this mean you're going to be in the Mudcat calendar? Alison, get this pic as quickly as possible. Seamus |
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Subject: RE: Help: Is Mudcat Really Open and Should It Be. From: Bearheart Date: 18 Mar 01 - 04:50 PM Well, I have managed to avoid a lot of this turmoil by being out of town a lot lately, and really only have had time to do "music" threads. But this I couldn't resist. I must say I felt a bit burned by the intensity of the animosity some people expressed toward the subject matter of my astrology thread of a few months back, which I (in my naivete) somehow thought was just a straight forward request for astrological data. But I value Mudcat not only for the wonderful services it provides musicians/music lovers (the DT, especially!)and the opportunity to get to know some wonderful people, but also its openminded approach to all things of interest to those of us who gather here. This is the only internet service of this kind which I consistently use. I use the internet a lot in my work, for email, for finding information, etc. But I do not have much time to waste and I do not have a whole lot of time to play... Mudcat feeds my need to connect with people of like mind, not just musically but spiritually, politically, and philosophically. I didn't expect that when I joined-- I was just looking for more info about the music I love. I got so much more than I could have imagined, and I am REALLY grateful. I live in the country. I don't have to be around other people too much if I don't want to. But lately I've been spending a lot more time in The Big City. Hanging out at Mudcat is like being in the City--- you can choose your friends but occasionally you will have to deal with assholes (and even that label is subjective...). That's life. And like someone said-- people do sometimes change (and even grow up!). But their best shot at changing is contact with Really Cool Persons, like us... I think people should think twice about expecting Max (or anyone else) to protect them from the world. This isn't Utopia. And that's not what Max signed on for anyway. Besides if you like conflict you can always seek it out-- but if you don't want to, you can avoid it. Most of these threads are pretty obvious. Bekki |
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Subject: RE: Help: Is Mudcat Really Open and Should It Be. From: Willie-O Date: 18 Mar 01 - 04:57 PM personally I think Canada is a better country for having laws against propagating hatred in some fairly specific ways...but that's Canada. I don't believe the net is truly international, this particular corner of it is based in the United States, a country with essentially libertarian philosophies which are shared by Mudcats proprietor. that's fine with me. Basically this is a big rambling farmhouse owned and maintained by Max, and his minimalistic approach to house rules seems to please most people most of the time and lead to some pretty energetic discussions--many of them actually intellectually engaging. You don't have to like anybody, or talk to them, but there's only one host at this party. W-O |
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Subject: RE: Help: Is Mudcat Really Open and Should It Be. From: mkebenn Date: 19 Mar 01 - 06:46 AM A big farm house, indeed. And It's like having a whole world of brothers and sisters. You will NOT get along with them all at all times, but your loss is great if you lose even one. And I have never said it before, thanks, Max. Mike |
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Subject: RE: Help: Is Mudcat Really Open and Should It Be. From: LR Mole Date: 19 Mar 01 - 11:00 AM Yes, indeed. My thanks. |
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Subject: RE: Help: Is Mudcat Really Open and Should It Be. From: Skeptic Date: 19 Mar 01 - 11:51 AM Some food for thought: John Stuart Mill said it best, in On Liberty (1859). Everyone, Mill noted, claims to believe in freedom of expression, but everyone draws his or her own boundaries at the obviously worthless, dangerous, and wrong. Why should we tolerate speech that offends our sense of essential value, security, and truth? Mill answered four compelling grounds for doing so: 1) the opinion might be true and "to deny this is to assume our own infallibility"; 2) the opinion, though erroneous, might, indeed, most probably would "contain a portion of truth," and because "prevailing opinion" is rarely, if ever, "the whole truth," censorship denies us that possible "remainder of the truth" that only might be gained by "the collision of adverse opinions"; 3) even if prevailing opinion were the whole truth, if it were not permitted to be contested--indeed, if it were not, in actual fact, "vigorously and earnestly contested," it will be believed by most not because of "its rational grounds," but only "in the manner of prejudice"; and 4) if we were not obliged to defend our belief, it would stand "in danger of being lost, or enfeebled, and deprived on its vital effect on the character and conduct," becoming a formula repeated by rote, "inefficacious for good . . . and preventing the growth of any real and heartfelt conviction, for reason or personal experience." |
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Subject: RE: Help: Is Mudcat Really Open and Should It Be. From: Kim C Date: 19 Mar 01 - 12:46 PM well, most of you already know I have a fiddle tattooed on my ass... Here's the thing. I only read and respond to the threads that interest me. I don't know what the whole Pol Pot thing is about. I didn't read it because it didn't interest me. Everyone has that option. I also have the option of not saying something ugly to someone who might have made me mad. Gladly, that doesn't happen often. What we call "free speech" carries with it the responsibility of knowing when NOT to speak. When someone starts off on a ridiculous thread, they are just encouraged to do more nonsense when people get their feathers all ruffled. It ain't worth it, y'all. It just ain't. Cheers ---- Kim |
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Subject: RE: Help: Is Mudcat Really Open and Should It Be. From: mousethief Date: 19 Mar 01 - 01:04 PM For what it's worth (nil, I know) I hereby award Kim the Official Mousethief "Wish I'd Said That" Award for this thread. Alex |
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Subject: RE: Help: Is Mudcat Really Open and Should It Be. From: Kim C Date: 19 Mar 01 - 01:10 PM Gee, thanks MF! (blush) |
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Subject: RE: Help: Is Mudcat Really Open and Should It Be. From: GUEST,She Wo Sells Seashells By the Seashore Date: 19 Mar 01 - 01:27 PM But Alex, you keep proving that you don't know when not to post. |
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Subject: RE: Help: Is Mudcat Really Open and Should It Be. From: mousethief Date: 19 Mar 01 - 01:29 PM Sorry, I don't take criticism from anonymous cowards. |
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Subject: RE: Help: Is Mudcat Really Open and Should It Be. From: GUEST Date: 19 Mar 01 - 01:33 PM If you say something racist or anti-semitic at Mudcat, the reaction will be along the lines of "I don't agree, but, in the name of free speech, I'll defend his right to say that." But, if you say or ask something critical of the Mudcat inner clique, like why shipping costs from Camsco are so much more expensive, you'll be ridiclued. You're damn right about that!And there's a good reason for it. I hope maybe you'll take a minute to understand, because you've done it again in this particular message. You posted anonymously and made a nonspecific allegation that puts Dick Greenhaus in a position where he cannot defend himself. If you think Dick charges too much for shipping, talk to him directly and give specific information about which order it was, and why you think the charges are too high. If you can't get satisfaction from him, I suppose you're justified in complaining publicly - but nonspecific, anonymous charges are just plain slander.Somebody did that the other night, an anonymous guest charging that a "Gestapo" was censoring thread titles - again, not specifying what title had been changed. If you want to complain or disagree, have the courage to say who you are and what specifically you are complaining about. If you don't do that, yes, you will be subjected to ridicule. Some people might even be tempted to think of you as an "asshole." -Joe Offer |
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Subject: RE: Help: Is Mudcat Really Open and Should It Be. From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 19 Mar 01 - 01:36 PM It's been a lot worse at times, it will be a lot worse at times - and it's not so bad even at its worst. And at its best it's great. And the best happens right alongside the worst. That's true of life, that's true of the Mudcat.
Free speech isn't an absolute. "Free speech" just means the authorities don't get involved - you say what you want to and take the consequences if what you say angers someone else. And there are limits on what you can do to respond to someone who has said something that angers you. You shouldn't kill them or break their legs.
Well, here at the Mudcat we aren't in a situation where killing each other or breaking each other legs doesn't come into it. What we can do is to be honest about our disagreements, and respect each other.
To suggest that "Free speech" means you can't say that you think what someone has said is false or evil, and try to persuade other people to see it the same way - that would just be a contradiction in terms, because this is precisely what free speech is about - the freedom to tell the truth as you see it.
But that kind of stuff is only necessary in extremis. Most of the time with pretty well everyone the sharpest disagreements can be and are conducted with courtesy and humour, and that's how it should be. The people who operate differently generally seem to get fed up and drift away, or with luck they change their mind-set and help keep the diversity going strong.
But anyway, this kind of thing goes round and round and vanishes away. Honest, it won't be long before we'll open the 'cat up, and every thread will seem to be about music and fellowship and that. And then a little time and it'll all seem to be people denouncing and hating each other. And so on. Thanks Max and Joe, and most of the rest of you. |
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Subject: RE: Help: Is Mudcat Really Open and Should It Be. From: Kim C Date: 19 Mar 01 - 01:58 PM MT. I meant MT not MF. T and F are kinda close on the keyboard. But y'all knew what I meant. :-) |
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Subject: RE: Help: Is Mudcat Really Open and Should It Be. From: mousethief Date: 19 Mar 01 - 02:41 PM Hmmm. |
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Subject: RE: Help: Is Mudcat Really Open and Should It Be. From: Kim C Date: 19 Mar 01 - 03:04 PM 'Course we could just call you Mousefeef..... |
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Subject: RE: Help: Is Mudcat Really Open and Should It Be. From: mousethief Date: 19 Mar 01 - 03:09 PM Might as well; Susan Praise-What-You-See calls me Teef. Perhaps I should go by "Mousebeef"? |
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Subject: RE: Help: Is Mudcat Really Open and Should It Be. From: fat B****rd Date: 19 Mar 01 - 03:15 PM hi carol c !! thankyou for liking my screen name, actually I cribbed it from alexei sayle years ago !! the fat part does apply to me and the B****rd is a sort of term of affection (I hope) from my workmates. To the matter in hand, my aforementioned workmates are in general friendly and kindhearted. If I was to refuse to have anything to do with those of them who are homophobic or racist in their speech then I would be right out on a limb, None of them think the National Front or their ilk are impressive and generally they speak in a wisecracking and purely descriptive manner. I have overheard conversations which disgusted me in the street and in pubs in regard to Ethnic minorities and gay people. I am pleased to say that I don't have to associate with any rampant homophobes or racists, but I do have to exist in a North of England working class environment which is real life as it applies to myself. The Mudcat does occasionally seem to belong to a bunch of people who only write to each other but, hey, I and anybody else can submiy our opinions etcetc and I for one am glad it exists warts and all. love from fB |
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Subject: RE: Help: Is Mudcat Really Open and Should It Be. From: Kim C Date: 19 Mar 01 - 03:23 PM the guy so nice he posted twice! ;-) |
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Subject: RE: Help: Is Mudcat Really Open and Should It Be. From: GUEST,Matt_R Date: 19 Mar 01 - 03:28 PM How about just Tennariffe? Dang, and all this time I though Fat Bastard was from Austin Powers...you know, the fat Scotsman "GET IN ME BELLY!"? |
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Subject: RE: Help: Is Mudcat Really Open and Should It Be. From: CarolC Date: 19 Mar 01 - 03:40 PM Hey fat B****rd, I love Alexei Sayle!
But Alex, you keep proving that you don't know when not to post.
--GUEST,She Wo Sells Seashells By the Seashore
Guest, SWSSBtS, in light of the following post by mousthief this past January, I can't help wondering if he might have been using a little bit of irony on us in his 19 Mar 01:04 PM post to this thread.
Subject: RE: btw: The Guest ain't a dog!
I've never flamed someone who didn't deserve it. Alex |
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Subject: RE: Help: Is Mudcat Really Open and Should It Be. From: mousethief Date: 19 Mar 01 - 03:56 PM Okay, okay, I apologize for that 09 Jan post. It should have read, I've never flamed anyone who didn't deserve it. Make one grammatical mistake and they're on your case for the rest of your life! Alex |
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Subject: RE: Help: Is Mudcat Really Open and Should It Be. From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 19 Mar 01 - 06:27 PM Both ways of saying are equally grammatical I'd say. If I thought long and hard I could probably identify a subtle distinction of meaning or emphasis. "Someone" seems better somehow, it seems to recognise the fact that there is an individual at the far end of a flame rather than just, not just a random bunch of electrons on a monitor. And that is a good thing to remember. |
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Subject: RE: Help: Is Mudcat Really Open and Should It Be. From: fat B****rd Date: 20 Mar 01 - 03:04 AM Dear Guest MattR yerwot ??? |
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Subject: RE: Help: Is Mudcat Really Open and Should It Be. From: GUEST,Fibula Mattock Date: 20 Mar 01 - 06:57 AM If Mudcat's taught me anything, it's when to hold my tongue. |
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Subject: RE: Help: Is Mudcat Really Open and Should It Be. From: Kim C Date: 20 Mar 01 - 01:48 PM Thatht mathes ith hahd to tawth..... |
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Subject: RE: Help: Is Mudcat Really Open and Should It Be. From: John Routledge Date: 20 Mar 01 - 01:56 PM Exactly Fibula - says he with mouth firmly closed*BG* GB |
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Subject: RE: Help: Is Mudcat Really Open and Should It Be. From: GUEST,mgarvey@pacifier.com Date: 20 Mar 01 - 11:48 PM I disagree with a lot of this. We are talking about a mass torturer here, and joking and clowning around under a title that says welcome to him to me is way beyond anything that is even remotely human. mg |
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Subject: RE: Help: Is Mudcat Really Open and Should It Be. From: Joe Offer Date: 21 Mar 01 - 12:17 AM In theory, mg, I might agree with you. Still, when you start to censor things, people start expecting you to censor everything according to their standards. Some people have quite strongly demanded that we do something to protect children from our bawdy folk songs. It's very hard to know where to draw the line. I've found that the best thing to do with offensive things on the Internet is to ignore them. Trying to censor them just provokes the person who started it in the first place, and then you can have a real mess. The best and only way I have found to deal with flamers and trolls is to act as if they don't exist. Don't respond to them, don't talk about them, and don't do or say anything at all that confirms their existence. Unfortunately, many of Mudcat's "regulars" don't seem to be able to do that, and so we have flame threads that are up to a hundred or more messages long. -Joe Offer- |
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Subject: RE: Help: Is Mudcat Really Open and Should It Be. From: Jeri Date: 21 Mar 01 - 08:15 AM In real life, if you ignore a troublemaker, they may become powerful and do immense harm. On the internet, if you ignore them, you remove any chance at power, and they often quit bothering to stir up trouble. Of course, in Mudcat, that's just a theory, since people here always give them what they're looking for. I'd love us to try an experiment where the next time this happens, people agree to ignore the flame bait. It will never have a chance because we can't agree to do that. People feel like they must be seen taking a stand, or it just drives them nuts to let the post go unanswered. That sort of thing is necessary in the "real world" - unless the object of the troublemaker is just to make trouble. Terrorists keep terrorizing people for as long as they can see results. Maybe one day... |
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Subject: RE: Help: Is Mudcat Really Open and Should It Be. From: GUEST,Roger the skiffler Date: 21 Mar 01 - 09:10 AM I'm with Joe & Jeri. If you don't like 'em: don't read 'em, don't post to 'em. RtS |
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Subject: RE: Help: Is Mudcat Really Open and Should It Be. From: CamiSu Date: 21 Mar 01 - 09:59 AM So true. It does not seem like it should be so hard to ignore those who are obviously trying to incite, but it is more difficult when an opening post SOUNDS sincere. Too bad we can't read the minds behind the posts, though that might just make things worse... And even chiding people to not respond to posts extends their shelf-lives. That said I do think that people who respond and miss the point entirely, maybe need to reread the offensive post, to determine the real point. Satire often has to be heavy handed, or no one will get the point. Perhaps reading Jonathon Swift's "A Modest Proposal" would help tune the senses for satire. If you take it seriously, it's truly an horrible thought... CamiSu |
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Subject: RE: Help: Is Mudcat Really Open and Should It Be. From: CarolC Date: 21 Mar 01 - 04:05 PM I realize that I run the risk of becoming the target of a lot of flames by saying this, but I think it bears saying.
I think some people use the Mudcat as a repository for their frustrations or other negative feelings about things that are happening in their lives. I think they figure that if they aim this stuff at someone who appears to deserve it, like a troll for instance, no harm is done. I think it's important for people to know that when they sling vitriol around in the forum, it doesn't just hurt the one it's aimed at. It hurts everyone. Carol |
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Subject: RE: Help: Is Mudcat Really Open and Should It Be. From: Wesley S Date: 22 Mar 01 - 11:11 AM Carol - I agree - From the years I worked in retail I can attest to the fact that some people will be rude to clerks because they know they can get away with it. And it's the same way with flamers and some of our "guests". You know these folks don't act that way around their family or co-workers { or anyone within arms reach } because they would be held accountable. Many of these things would not be said at all if they had to said face to face with someone. I see a lot of threads as being like TV channels - I don't check into them because I know I won't like what I find there. If I do decide to look at them it's my own fault if I get upset. Change the channel and ignore them. The flamers want a response. And when we post to their threads we give them what they want. Ignore them and they will go away. Much like a two year olds tantrum. |
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Subject: RE: Help: Is Mudcat Really Open and Should It Be. From: Mrrzy Date: 22 Mar 01 - 12:59 PM I've been thinking about this one for a while. If I may drift a little here - My experience is that Americans have a different view of personal freedom, and individual rights, than citizens of most other nations. I am not trying to be offensive, and in fact am trying not to be offensive - I am not trying to generalize to all Americans, but to speak from personal experience. I find that in my experience, Americans tend to minimize the impact which exercising their rights can have on others. That is the Europeans, Asians, Canadians, Africans, and Ozzies I've known might know they had a right to do X, but they wouldn't, because just because it's your right to is no excuse for some behavior. Anyone see those current commercials, about just because you have the power doesn't mean you have to use it? I guess that's how I feel about deliberately offensive speech - just cause it's true is no reason to say nasty things. Maybe Americans self-censor less, so the need for external censoring gets exacerbated. Take the US attitude towards gun ownership, and whether it's legal to insult somebody. Sure it's legal - so what? Why do it? So I guess my take (to get back to the question) is that yes, we should allow all opinions to be voiced. No, we shouldn't censor, but rather Yes we should ignore, those we feel ought not to be voiced, or those we wish we hadn't heard (same thing?). If that title offendeth thee, click not on the thread. If reading a thread offendeth thee, stop reading, click back, and find thee something else. Now, that doesn't mean that if an INADVERTANT insult is delivered, the poster ought not be corrected, of course I want to know if I've P'd someone O. Preferably by PM. If I meant what I said, I'll apologize for offending, again in a PM. If I mistyped and was misunderstood, I'll correct the misapprehension, publicly in the thread (since if A PMs, that doesn't mean that A is the only person I misled) AND apologize for offending. And in order to minimize such things, whenever I'm writing of my opinions, I hedge a lot, like with this post, all pasted over with I'm Not Trying To Be Rude. Because I'm not (trying to be, anyway). And it is opinions that bother folks the most, not facts... right? |
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Subject: RE: Help: Is Mudcat Really Open and Should It Be. From: mousethief Date: 22 Mar 01 - 01:57 PM Mrrzy, what you said makes perfect sense to me. And I don't find it insulting, either. Carol, your psychological theory is fascinating. Has research been done on this question, do you know? Alex |
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Subject: RE: Help: Is Mudcat Really Open and Should It Be. From: John Routledge Date: 22 Mar 01 - 01:58 PM The last half dozen posts have really got to the core of this issue. OH THAT ALL POSTERS READ AND DIGESTED. GB |
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Subject: RE: Help: Is Mudcat Really Open and Should It Be. From: Skeptic Date: 22 Mar 01 - 02:05 PM Mrrzy, As an American, I think there's some truth in what you say (how's that for hedging). Not sure if it's a general rule but Americans tend to be very public in voicing their opinions. Could argue that we're also less empathetic, or at least often less civil, too. Thinking about it, do you find that American's (as opposed to other nationalities) tend to be more black/white than "shades of gray"? That there is an underlying assumption that there has to be winner and a loser and the possibility of there being more than one "right answer" is considered vaguely un-American, resulting in less tolerance for others views. Or is it more relate to what topic is being discussed? Do you find that Americans are quicker to assume that an inadvertent insult is deliberate than those from other countries? On the internet, at least, people seem more likely to assume insult than the contrary, without regard to nationality (and Mudcat isn't the worst by far).. Are American's better, worse or simply average? I've had major virtual fights with people on forums, met them later and wondered how I could ever have thought they meant to be insulting. And met people I thought were reasonable and rationale and realized they weren't at all. A final question: TV often seems to portray American as verbally aggressive and less "civil" in general. "Meeting" someone on a forum, I wonder how much of the perception of what someone (from America ) "really" meant is colored by that? (When in doubt, blame the media. Or too much beer). As a confirmed cynic, this may be too jaundiced a view. I'd be interested in your's and others comments. (But don't want to invite nationality bashing - probably a futile wish). Regards John |
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Subject: RE: Help: Is Mudcat Really Open and Should It Be. From: Mrrzy Date: 22 Mar 01 - 02:07 PM Well, I've offended somebody once, and had somebody all worried (unnecessarily) that they'd offended me, but about 2 PMs each and both issues were resolved. One of these conversations prompted a useful, informative and temporarily "anonymous" thread about etiquette, so I think that it was well-worth it, but am not sure the party I had offended would agree! |
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Subject: RE: Help: Is Mudcat Really Open and Should It Be. From: CarolC Date: 22 Mar 01 - 02:23 PM I'm sorry mousethief, I'm not going to take the bait on that one. Carol |
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Subject: RE: Help: Is Mudcat Really Open and Should It Be. From: mousethief Date: 22 Mar 01 - 03:06 PM I was being serious, Carol. |
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Subject: RE: Help: Is Mudcat Really Open and Should It Be. From: mousethief Date: 22 Mar 01 - 03:07 PM |
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Subject: RE: Help: Is Mudcat Really Open and Should It Be. From: CarolC Date: 22 Mar 01 - 04:13 PM Well, mousethief, I don't think I would call it a psychological theory, exactly. I don't know whether or not research has been done on the behavioral dynamic I was describing as it applies to the internet.
You could probably learn a lot about it if you read some of the literature on abuse, and about targeting and scapegoating within families.
This is a dynamic that I've seen some striking examples of in small town settings as well.
The literature is out there. You just have to do some digging around to find it. Carol |
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Subject: RE: Help: Is Mudcat Really Open and Should It Be. From: mousethief Date: 22 Mar 01 - 04:24 PM Rats. I was hoping to get a book recommendatin from you so I could just go to the library and look it up. Now I have to do RESEARCH? The trials and tribulations of a life-long learner. Sheesh. But thanks, Carol, seriously, for your comments. I will look into it. Alex |
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Subject: RE: Help: Is Mudcat Really Open and Should It Be. From: CarolC Date: 22 Mar 01 - 04:33 PM (*G*) I know how much you enjoy a challenge, mousethief. And you're welcome. |
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