BS: What's too far?

Subject: What's too far?
From: Devilmaster
Date: 27 Mar 01 - 02:00 PM

Just scanning throughout the threads, and I want to ask something that has been scuttled about as side notes or arguements on other threads. (and i think has had its own thread or two).

What is too far? When do Catter's cross the line with their comments? What one person thinks is funny perhaps another thinks is rude or callous.

Should there be limits? Or should free speech (I ain't gonna say the first amendment cause I'm Canadian and American laws don't concern me.) reign supreme. I'm hoping this will be an open, honest and insightful thread. Let everyone know what you think.

If I, for example, wanted to voice my disgust at a certain musician, say Stan Rogers (if anyone knows me, they know I love Stan's music. I use it cause he died a tragic death) and I say stuff like I'm happy he's dead, etc. what do you think would be too far?

I hope this spurs some comments.....

Subject: How high is up???
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 27 Mar 01 - 02:04 PM

ummm...

I may not know much about good taste but I know bad when I see it...

????

Subject: RE: BS: What's too far?
From: Mr Red
Date: 27 Mar 01 - 02:11 PM

I think they will tell old pal. Well I might.

This conduit is a benign anarchy. But we appear by the good grace of the site operators so ultimately they will look to their core contributers and respond accordingly, unless the core don't get there first.

Subject: RE: BS: What's too far?
From: GUEST,Kendall
Date: 27 Mar 01 - 02:16 PM

Personally, I can forgive almost any statement if it is given as opinion. If you ask 100 people this question, you will get 100 different answers, just because we are all different. I'm not easily offended, but, if someone attacks me personally, or, invalidates me in a discussion, there will be trouble.Now, if someone states that Stan Rogers was a piss poor song writer, even though I didnt like him personally, I would rise and defend his talent. Because, I believe most of us would agree that he was one of the best.

Subject: RE: BS: What's too far?
From: mousethief
Date: 27 Mar 01 - 02:21 PM

But saying you're glad somebody is dead is really crummy behavior for a human being. Perhaps it won't be censored, but it is sure to be censured, and rightly so IMHO. If person X has a right to shoot off his mouth, person Y has a right to say, "what you said is wrong, mean-spirited, etc."

Seems to me.

Alex

Subject: A Bridge Too Far?
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 27 Mar 01 - 02:30 PM

I donno MT... I'm glad that Adof Hitler is dead, and Jeffry Dahmer and David Coresh (koresh?), and I wish Paul Bernardo and Carla Homolka were dead too!

That's not wrong or mean-spirited... at least -I- don't think it is...

Subject: RE: BS: What's too far?
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 27 Mar 01 - 02:33 PM

I'm also thankful that everyone that's EVER, or will ever been born has died or will die... Otherwise, the lines at the grocery store would be WAY TOO LONG!

LOL!!!

Subject: RE: BS: What's too far?
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 27 Mar 01 - 02:42 PM

more on topic, I did learn here, that for instance ashly what's his face... one can't criticise HIM here...

And he's a PEDOPHILE!!!

Subject: RE: BS: What's too far?
From: Devilmaster
Date: 27 Mar 01 - 02:44 PM

just so everyone knows, I only use stan as an example. I wish he were still alive. I would have wanted to see him once in my life.

But it goes beyond that. Dont get caught on one example and just commenting on that. Give me your ideas about what YOU think is too far. Give examples of messages that upset you from other threads.

Hope that gives better guidance than the first msg.

Subject: RE: BS: What's too far?
From: mousethief
Date: 27 Mar 01 - 02:51 PM

Devil, your first message was great. People just like to get zeroed in on the details and tend to forget the big picture. Reminding them of the big picture when they do so is always a great idea.

Alex

Subject: RE: BS: What's too far?
From: Devilmaster
Date: 27 Mar 01 - 02:54 PM

thanks MT, I was kinda wondering about it. My thinking goes quicker than my typing, so sometimes I miss the important things.

Subject: RE: BS: What's too far?
From: Kim C
Date: 27 Mar 01 - 02:56 PM

Weeeeeelllll.... I dunno. There have been a few times where a couple of members have got into a shouting match with one another and I don't particularly care for that. I think there is a difference between stating a strong opinion and being mean-spirited because you want to rile someone.

Also, individuals are different. In this forum there are people who are around most of the time, and I think most of us know where we can & can't go with them; but there are people who are only around some of the time, and maybe we don't know their limits.

And then sometimes, you never know who's going to react to what you say, and how.

Subject: RE: BS: What's too far?
From: gnu
Date: 27 Mar 01 - 03:00 PM

Clinton.... pedophile ? I often wonder if Ashley's comments to that NY interviewer were simply for publicity or simply for a ruse. I'm not defending or promoting him, but to state that he IS a pedophile is pretty strong stuff, no ?

By the way, as for his recent "antics", again, the whole story is sometimes not told. I suppose I would consider swearing at the audience and walking off stage if I were threatened.

Anyway, the lighter side... when all of that stuff first broke, I use to call him Assley Makes-I-sick. But some of his fiddlin' is brilliant.

Now, is name calling going too far ?

gnu

Subject: RE: BS: What's too far?
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 27 Mar 01 - 03:08 PM

Wonder what you want, but I have a direct quote from him saying what he liked best about Toronto was that he could get 12 year old boy for 50 bucks... And there was no press to hear him... That makes him a pedophile in MY book, and I wouldn't hesitate to beat him like a red-headded step-child!

The play on words that I call him is "Ask-me-I'm-faggot"

But a lot of people here object to the use of the 'F' word, so I won't say it... Just cause I don't wanna highjack Steves thread...

Subject: RE: BS: What's too far?
From: Dave (the ancient mariner)
Date: 27 Mar 01 - 03:14 PM

I'm with Clinton on this one (except I consider them cured not just dead mate) Yours, Aye. Dave

Subject: RE: BS: What's too far?
From: catspaw49
Date: 27 Mar 01 - 03:17 PM

The whole question is subjective and applies to one's desire to get along or go along or whatever. There are probably half a dozen regulars who are capapble of going over the top at times because of their somewhat perverse senses of humor or general attitude toward a topic. I am one of those. Clinton up there is another. Mousethief falls into that category at times because of his directness. Stretching a bit, you can add Wolfgang perhaps. He is often so intense in his postings, although well meaning I'm sure, that he offends assorted others. Actually, I can think of several more, but let's not go into the list.

The point is that when it happens you will generally find someone jumping the case of the offensive party, at which point either the offender apologizes or tells the group to bugger off or somehow tries to explain what they actually meant. Interesting that you mention Stan. In a recent thread, I made a tasteless joke that I have always found perverse about his death. Clinton and the entire thread jumped my ass. I was hoping to take a poke at Clinton, but it was ill-conceived and I apologized. About a week later, Clinton made one of his own infamous remarks which again was meant as humor, but he got jumped because it didn't fly on that thread. I could go on and on but what's the point?

Nine times out of ten, I stop myself from some insane remark before I post it. I bet Clinton does too, and probably every 'Catter who does go over the top, thinks about it and does the same thing. Once in awhile our judgement is wrong and if we wish to remain a part of the place, we try to make the proper reparations and apologies. I have seen Wolfgang post three of four longer posts than his original while trying to explain what he meant and his intent.

I am not picking on Wolfgang or Clinton or myself.......and if I offended them.....Sorry guys....really. But we are three who "go over" in very different ways perhaps, but we do go over. And to the credit of them, they have always made it right......and I have tried myself.

There's a responsibility on the part of any poster here, but also a responsibility on the part of a reader. If you disagree with someone you generally say so and give your opinion. The same should be true when you find something offensive. There are times that YOU may be the ONLY one who finds it offensive, but if it bothers you, perhaps it is worth mentioning........often it leads to some interesting discussions.

Bottom line though? I don't think we have too many folks around here who are mean spirited or malicious and most of us are decent folks with caring attitudes. Its waht keeps the joint the place it is.

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: What's too far?
From: Sorcha
Date: 27 Mar 01 - 03:20 PM

Opinions--OK
Personal attacks--not OK
Just remember to state it as an opinion, not a fact. I try to tend to stay out of what are, in my opinion, controversial, flame, attack, and political threads. I don't always measure up, tho. Some of the BS is fun, some is mean, some is stupid, and some I don't get......I'm just a hooman bean, after all.......

Subject: RE: BS: What's too far?
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 27 Mar 01 - 03:23 PM

No offence Spaw!

I wear my offensiveness like a scar of honour! What fun would the world be without controversy???

;-)

Subject: RE: BS: What's too far?
From: Devilmaster
Date: 27 Mar 01 - 03:26 PM

good point clint....

Subject: RE: BS: What's too far?
From: Hollowfox
Date: 27 Mar 01 - 03:39 PM

I think the guidelines should be the same ones you'd use if you were speaking instead of typing. I see no reason to treat someone in a different way online than I would at a party or a festival.

Subject: RE: BS: What's too far?
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 27 Mar 01 - 03:44 PM

Oh... you don't wanna be treated like I treat my friends!!!! You really, really don't....

Yer just not up to the challenge...

;-)

Subject: RE: BS: What's too far?
From: GUEST,marty D (at work)
Date: 27 Mar 01 - 05:09 PM

Clinton. You call Ashley a Faggot (perhaps the nastiest of the old terms for a Gay man) and a pedophile. Do you equate the two? I sincerely hope not. I'm not a fan of Ashley's behaviour, but this is simply odious. Is his the kind of response you WANTED, Devilmaster?

Martin

Subject: RE: BS: What's too far?
From: mousethief
Date: 27 Mar 01 - 05:20 PM

Directness, eh? Spaw, you're turning downright diplomatic in your second childhood.

Alex

Subject: RE: BS: What's too far?
From: CarolC
Date: 27 Mar 01 - 05:35 PM

Sorcha said it perfectly for me.

Carol

Subject: RE: BS: What's too far?
From: Jim the Bart
Date: 27 Mar 01 - 06:38 PM

Whether stated as an opinion or as a fact, a hurtful comment still hurts. I despise comments that have no purpose (whether informational or otherwise) other than to hurt. Saying "That was a stupid comment" is, in my opinion, a pointless and hurtful opinion. If you disagree with my comment, tell my why; stupidity has a way of standing out without needing to be acknowledged.

That being said, I would rather read an "over the top" posting that has some substance than a banal one. If you are adding to the dialogue, I will forgive a lapse in manners. I prefer manners, but I don't want people to water down their opinions because they're afraid they will offend someone by speaking their mind. After all, if you don't tell me what you really think, how can I hope to change your mind?

Goodnight, all.
Bart,the baron of banality

Subject: RE: BS: What's too far?
From: Lyrical Lady
Date: 27 Mar 01 - 09:05 PM

Could you please explain..."I wouldn't hesitate to beat him like a red-headded step-child" ... certainly you're not equating red-headed step-children with "faggots" or "pedofiles" are you? I've never heard that saying before ... where'd it come from? LL

Subject: RE: BS: What's too far?
From: kendall
Date: 27 Mar 01 - 09:30 PM

Neither have I but it makes me think of "Laugh in" where all of the neighbors kids had red hair, but the official father didnt. His neighbor did though! It implies that the mother "Jumped the fence"

Subject: RE: BS: What's too far?
From: Amos
Date: 27 Mar 01 - 10:13 PM

Spaw, you two-bit excuse for a fart farmer, why the f##@# did you leave me off your f###ing list?

A

Subject: RE: BS: What's too far?
From: MMario
Date: 27 Mar 01 - 10:16 PM

'cause everyone know you are too polite even when you're ranting, amos!

Subject: RE: BS: What's too far?
From: mousethief
Date: 28 Mar 01 - 02:41 AM

Calling someone a bastard because he disagrees with your politics is going too far.

Alex

Subject: RE: BS: What's too far?
From: Grab
Date: 28 Mar 01 - 07:38 AM

Not that my opinions matter a damn ;-) but I'd disagree with you, Kendall. If you say that you think someone wrote dreadful songs, that's your opinion on their talent (or lack of it), and it entirely comes down to your taste in music. It has no reflection on the character of the person concerned. That's a perfectly OK comment, although it may not be that relevant or informative.

Saying you're glad someone's dead, that implies that you genuinely do hate them for *who they are*. That's a personal attack.

As an example, I think Shane McGowan, Morrissey and Noel Gallagher are piss-poor singers. But I don't want them dead and buried bcos of it (if nothing else, they've all come up with some damn fine songs!).

Grab.

Subject: RE: BS: What's too far?
From: GUEST,Roger the skiffler
Date: 28 Mar 01 - 08:01 AM

My twopenn'orth: I try to limit my mockery to those 'Catters who have shown they can take it in the spirit it's meant and who respond in kind. I don't criticise other's right to opinions, but don't care if they criticise mine! Don't mind name-calling (sticks and stones...). Don't get involved in religion/politics/ medical threads as I don't think my views are appropriate on a music site. Some thread starters seem in a fragile state and are easily offended by sharp responses. Sometimes I read the opening thread and feel like saying "Pass the sick-bag" but hold back. I've stopped criticising obvious "stirring" anonymous threads, just don't rise to the bait, let 'em die. And I'm sorry about all the old jokes (I lied, I'm NOT!)
None of the above is meant to be a guideline to anyone else, just my way of drawing my own line.
As the Mudcat is "us" and we are all individuals we can all choose our own parameters. (God, I sound pompous!). If anyone really asked my advice I would say: If a thread offendeth thee, then read it not, nor respond to it. For verily, thy silence will kill it off (First book of Skiffler verses 1-2).
When in doubt think "Hey, lighten up, guys, let's sing a song.
RtS ("Nobody loves me, everybody hates me , think I'll go and eat worms" as we sang in the Wolf Cubs [Cub scouts])

Subject: RE: BS: What's too far?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 28 Mar 01 - 09:26 AM

If I say something it's one of three things

- it's what I think is true, which means it's my opinion,

- it's something I don't think is true, but I want people to think it's true, in which case it's a lie

- or I'm being sarcastic or ironical or whatever, and I as expecting other people to realise that I mean it that way.

So I can see the point of saying "in my opinion" for one particular sentence in a post. What does it imply about all the other sentences?

I think if you say something here that's you'd be wary of saying face to face because of the hostile reaction you might get, that's just cowardice. It should be the other way. There are things I'd say face to face to people that I'd never say at a distance, because face to face you can say hurtful things in a way that doesn't hurt. I think a basic rule should be, never set out to hurt as such. There might be times when you need to destroy someone, but that's a totally different thing.

Subject: RE: BS: What's too far?
From: Bagpuss
Date: 28 Mar 01 - 09:27 AM

Grab - saying anything bad about Morrisey is going to far!!!!

So, you and me, outside, right now!!

Bagpuss

Subject: RE: BS: What's too far?
From: kendall
Date: 28 Mar 01 - 09:40 AM

At least when someone disagrees with me, I know they read what I had to say! Spaw, you also left me off your friggin' list..not that I give a rodents rump!

Subject: RE: BS: What's too far?
From: Devilmaster
Date: 28 Mar 01 - 12:35 PM

All good answers everyone. This is definitely what I was hoping for.

My personal view (and to see if I can keep the discussion going) is that I believe in free speech. One hundred percent. And in todays world of the internet, I feel that something like this truly offers the chance of free speech. To deny that, places someone's ideals and morals on someone else. The world is changing. (almost as fast as I have to upgrade my computer!) I believe our standards have to change with it. Music companies have seen the future with the introduction of napster and the like. TV stations saw the future with ICraveTV. The persons who started these sites are called criminals by some, but I see them as visionaries who are showing what the internet can do. Its a very fine line. I use napster (I hear shocked gasps...) to see what is out there. I still go buy cd's when I find something I like, but I can trial cd's now.

In my own view, ClintonHammond(who is a very good friend, although he didn't come out for a beer last night cause he was curled up on the couch watching a movie or something or other.. bastard! ...but i digress) called Ashley McIssac a faggot, and I accept that. I do not necessarily agree with it, but I accept it. (side note - Clinton and I have squared off on topics like this over a pint a Guinness and an Alexander Keith's, I respect his views even though I dont necessarily agree, that would take the fun out of it.)

Sometimes I object to what people say because maybe they have the wrong information on any topic, and I am just correcting. If people bad mouth me, I let them, cause usually they are a person that is not a friend, and I know the people who know and love me, (the list is short) will see beyond what they have heard. I feel generally people worry too much about what others think of them personally.

To paraphrase George Carlin - 'People always talk about bad words. There are no bad words. They're just words.'

Subject: RE: BS: What's too far?
From: kendall
Date: 28 Mar 01 - 12:47 PM

Definition of manners: The art of making other people comfortable. Using coarse language in some places is showing a lack of manners.George Carlin is funny, but, he is also juvenile at times.Sam Kinnison..now, there's a real sewer mouth, but, the SOB was a comic genius!

Subject: RE: BS: What's too far?
From: Devilmaster
Date: 28 Mar 01 - 01:07 PM

I love both Carlin and Kinison and Lenny Bruce. They showed that you can be funny AND honest about life.

"These poor people have been bulls****ed by the system into believeing that if you change the name of the condition, somehow you;ll change the condition. We have no more deaf people, they're hearing impaired. No one's blind anymore, partially sighted or visually impaired. We have no more stupid people, they have a learning disorder, or they're minimally exceptional. Psychologists have started calling ugly people those with severe appearance deficits." - Carlin

Subject: RE: BS: What's too far?
From: mousethief
Date: 28 Mar 01 - 01:19 PM

Kendall: Give my rump what?

McGrath, very well stated. Everything I put forward as true is something I think is true, which means it's my opinion, so why bother saying "in my opinion" for all of it? It's all my opinion, or I wouldn't say it. Doh!

Matt: That's by REM? Hell, they *DO* do something I like!

Alex

Subject: RE: BS: What's too far?
From: Wolfgang
Date: 28 Mar 01 - 01:34 PM

Kevin (McGrath),
I disagree on 'in my opinion'. It can be sometimes very useful to differentiate between information (facts) and opinion. For example, when I answer a request for information by writing

this has been done by A on her album B, her best album, in my opinion

I make clear that I think there can be no disagreement with the first part but acknowledge there can be with the second. Such a sentence sounds awkward to me without a qualifier.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: What's too far?
From: mousethief
Date: 28 Mar 01 - 01:40 PM

The point, however, Wolfgang, I think, is that you can be wrong about what album it's on. It's not a fact at all, but your belief (another word for opinion).

I tend to see a person's beliefs more on a continuum than in two mutually exclusive buckets labelled "fact" and "opinion."

I may feel quite certain that it's on album B, but in fact be wrong. On the other hand I can be uncertain if I'm remembering the name of the album correctly, and yet be 100% right.

Of course if you give us a reason for believing your opinion ("I just checked last night, and yes, it's on album B"), then we have more reason to think it's really true; but even so there's no complete certainty (perhaps you checked it in bad lighting, or your album cover has been damaged in some way).

Further, if you say "her best album" -- what the hell else COULD that be but an opinion? If it's a widely-held opinion, you would probably qualify it with something like, "believed by many or most critics to be her best album." Lacking this, if you use words like "best" or "most beautiful" and such -- value judgments -- I will automatically assume you're stating your opinion. What else could it be, since these things don't admit of objective verification?

So, respectfully, I must stick with McGrath.

Alex

Subject: RE: BS: What's too far?
From: Wolfgang
Date: 28 Mar 01 - 01:50 PM

Alex,
of course I have been wrong in cases even when I was 100% sure, that's not my point. In one case I am speaking about facts (decidable), in the other case I speak about (undecidable) opinions. There is no urgent need to use different words for different things, but I think it helps to clarify.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: What's too far?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 28 Mar 01 - 01:50 PM

If I say something is "best" or "good" or "total crap", those are value-judgements, and value-judgements always carry a provisional in-built "in my opinion". In the same way, any statements about fact carries an inbuilt - "I believe this to be true."

No harm in bringing them out sometimes, but it's really just a way of making the sentences balance better. Like when someone says: "All I can say is..." and so on and so forth. A rhetorical flourish, and long may rhetoric flourish.

Freedom of speech can mean two things - one is "noone has the right to stop me saying what I choose to say", which broadly I'd agree with; or it can mean "When I say what I choose to say, no matter what it does to other people, that's my right and nobody else's business" - and that I think is far from true.

Subject: RE: BS: What's too far?
From: mousethief
Date: 28 Mar 01 - 01:51 PM

I'm saying, however, that it should be obvious to any but the most stupid of observers that "this is her best album" is an opinion. What else could it be?

Alex

Subject: RE: BS: What's too far?
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 28 Mar 01 - 02:11 PM

A pedophile is someone who's into kids... Into same sex kids is a gay pedophile... And I know that being gay doens't mean you're a pedophile... I'm not that stupid...

The phrase "Beat like red headed step child" is just soemthing I heard one time and though was really funny... it's just a joke...

Subject: RE: BS: What's too far?
From: mousethief
Date: 28 Mar 01 - 02:24 PM

Clinton, it doesn't seem terribly funny to me. I am a step child and have step children and they -- all children -- are not for beating. I find it in very poor taste.

JMHO.

Alex

Subject: RE: BS: What's too far?
From: Wolfgang
Date: 29 Mar 01 - 03:34 AM

it should be obvious to any but the most stupid of observers that "this is her best album" is an opinion. What else could it be

Alex, I'm just curious. What is the difference between writing 'in my opinion' and 'IMHO' like you did twice in this thread?

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: What's too far?
From: katlaughing
Date: 29 Mar 01 - 04:36 AM

I use IMO so that newbies or people who just surf through will know that what I am saying may not represent the mindset of the group as a whole.

Sometimes, I get really upset when I see someone on here make a broad declarative statement which implies that that is the way it is and that's to be the end of it. THAT gets my back up and I immediately want to challenge their stance, whereas, if they'd just added the IMO, it would be altogether different.

kat

Subject: RE: BS: What's too far?
From: wdyat12
Date: 29 Mar 01 - 05:01 AM

I am really repulsed by the Kennebec Journal's coverage of a certain person who defended his "right?" to have sex with his pet dog during a recent Maine Legislature hearing on a new bill for animal rights. I'm sure this will make USA Today in this mornings paper. Whoops! I guess I shoudn't have brought this up here.

wdyat12

Subject: RE: BS: What's too far?
From: kendall
Date: 29 Mar 01 - 08:27 AM

And, incest is now called "Rolling your own"