Help: The Foggy Dew: Sud el Bar? Huns?

Subject: The Foggy Dew
From: leprechaun
Date: 11 Nov 97 - 01:27 AM

In the lyrics of "The Foggy Dew" is a mention of Suvla and Sud el Bar. While reading about Gallipoli, I finally found out where and what Suvla was. I still have yet to locate Sud el Bar. I'm assuming it was a battle field in WWI or the Boer War. Another interesting lyric in The Foggy Dew is sometimes read as "Britannia's HUNS with their long range guns..." The reference to Huns seems strange, in that England was at war with Germany at the time of the Easter Rising. Other versions say "Britannia's SONS with their long range guns..." This makes more sense to me. If anybody has any insight into the Sud el Bar reference, or the huns/sons reference, I'd be after knowing more.

Subject: RE: The Foggy Dew
From: Benjamin Bodhra/nai
Date: 11 Nov 97 - 07:18 AM

Hey ya Leprechaun,

The term Hun is used a lot just to describe a bloodthirsty warring people or person, so yes in the view of the Irish republicans the English were Huns. Also the fact that the English are Anglo-Saxons, Anglelandt and Saxony being part of Germany and Denmark. But the phrase Britains sons is one I have found more common and it is more appropriate I think.

Sud el Bar was a battle area in WWI, but having just done a quick check of my history books I can't find a good reference to it. It is in the Middle East and I'm sure that Australia was involved as that is why I would have a reference in my mind. I think it was in Egypt, maybe the same time and area as the Beersheba charge. Don't quote me.

Sla/n

Benjamin

Subject: RE: The Foggy Dew
From: Martin Ryan
Date: 12 Nov 97 - 04:22 AM

Sud el Bar was in Mesopotamia (modern day Iraq).WW1

According to Cathal O'Boyle's "Songs of the County Down", the song was written in 1919 by Canon Charles O Neill, a catholic parish priest in Down. The air "belonged to an old love song, recorded in 1913 by John McCormack". I'm not sure what that last refers to - although the air is certainly used (with slight differences) for "The Banks of the Moorlough Shore" - which is a beautiful love song!

"Brittania's sons" was definitely the original, BTW.

Regards

Subject: RE: The Foggy Dew
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 12 Nov 97 - 10:41 AM

Hi Martin- The McCormack recorded version is the one with the verse ending:

"Young man, she said, the boy I'll wed I'm to meet in the foggy dew."

I'm pretty sure we have it in the database. dick

Subject: RE: The Foggy Dew
From: Martin Ryan
Date: 12 Nov 97 - 12:13 PM

Dick

Thanx. There's another verse or to to the "revolutionary" set- I'll forward them later.

Regards

Subject: RE: The Foggy Dew
From: leprechaun
Date: 13 Nov 97 - 01:56 PM

Thanks everybody. As always, I've been rewarded with more than I hoped for. Now I'm wondering where to get recordings of the John McCormack songs. My grandfather's name was John McCormack, and to get the English off his trail, he changed it to McCormick when he fled to Canada around 1910 or so.

Subject: Lyr Add: THE FOGGY DEW (from John McCormack)
From: Alice
Date: 15 Nov 97 - 11:03 PM

Dick, this caught my eye because I have an old RCA, 1958, recording of "John McCormack Sings Irish Songs", reproducing his early recordings. I checked the database, and the love song version you have there is different than the one he sings on the record. The recording is January 3, 1913. I transcribed the lyrics.

THE FOGGY DEW

Oh, down the hill I went one morn,
A lovely maid I spied.
Her hair was bright as the dew that went,
Sweet banners seldom ride.
And where go ye, sweet maid, said I,
And she raised her eyes of blue.
And smiled and said, The boy I wed,
I'm to meet in the foggy dew.

Go hide your clothes ye roses red,
And droop ye lilies fair.
For you must pale for very shame,
Before a maid so fair.
Said I, Dear maid, will you be my bride,
She raised her eyes of blue.
And smiled and said, The boy I wed,
I'm to meet in the foggy dew.

Oh, down the hill I went one morn,
A-singing I did go.
Oh, down the hill I went one morn,
She answered sweet and low.
Yes, I will be your own dear bride,
And I know that you'll be true.
Then spied in my arms, and all her charms,
Were hidden in the foggy dew.


In the album notes written by Max de Schauenesee, it says,"McCormack, in his long association with the phonograph, made more than 580 records, and was one of the most successful singers to place his art on discs... as a bel-canto stylist of the Italian school, he kept the undeviating vocal line advancing on an uninterrupted breath-stream, as one word melted into the next in a caressing legato. Therefore, it may seem almost paradoxical to claim that McCormack's every word stood out crystal-clear against the musical backgrounds."

It is true, that in spite of it being a rough, scratchy sounding 1913 recording, the words he sang were clearly communicated.

Alice in Montana

Subject: RE: The Foggy Dew
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 16 Nov 97 - 11:35 AM

Thanx Alice- I guess my memory faileth. I'll correct the McCormack reference in the database.

Subject: RE: The Foggy Dew
From: Alice
Date: 16 Nov 97 - 01:55 PM

Dick, the one word that I thought was awkward that McCoramck sang was in the line..." Then SPIED in my arms... " at the end of the song. I listened with headphones over and over, and it could only be that word he is saying. If anyone has a published copy with the lyrics saying something else, I would be interested in seeing it. I looked it up in my largest dictionary to see if there may be another meaning, and I can only interpret it as watching from the concealment of his arms. Thanks. Alice in Montana

Subject: RE: The Foggy Dew
From: Martin Ryan
Date: 24 Nov 97 - 11:34 AM

Two further verses to the "revolutionary set". They fit as third and last of the set in the DT.

O the night fell black and the rifles crack made perfidious Albion reel
Mid the leaden rain seven tongues of flame did shine o'er the lines of steel
By each shining blade a prayer was said that to Irealnd her sons be true
And when morning broke still the war flag shook its folds in the foggy dew

As back through the glen I rode again, my heart with grief was sore
For I parted then with valiant men whom I never shall see more
But to and fro in my dreams I go and I'll kneel and pray for you
For slavery fled, O glorious dead, when you fell in the foggy dew.

The above are taken from a (very) secondary source. A few bits sit awkwardly to my ear. I'll see if I can confirm them.

Still think "The Maid of the Moorlough SHore" is the best set to this lovely air!

Regards

Subject: RE: The Foggy Dew
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 24 Nov 97 - 01:28 PM

Thanx Martin- I forgot these; and I've always loved the Perfidious Albion line.

Subject: RE: The Foggy Dew
From: Nigel Sellars
Date: 25 Nov 97 - 09:37 AM

Perhaps my memory is playing tricks on me, but I recall yet another verse sung by Sinead O'Connor with the Chieftains that talks about children and wives. Only heard it once, but it certainly struck me as different. Any one know?

Subject: RE: The Foggy Dew
From: Wolfgang Hell
Date: 26 Nov 97 - 10:56 AM

She sings no such verse on the "Long Black Veil" CD with the Chieftains. Wolfgang

Subject: RE: The Foggy Dew
From: mm
Date: 27 Jun 98 - 07:31 PM

re: Huns

The English used to refer to the Germans as the "Huns" during the Great War (World War I). In Ireland this was turned back on them; I remember a song of my youth called "Down by the Liffeyside", one of the less politically correct versions of which had the lines:

"And we'll have little children
And we'll rear them neat and clean
To shout 'Up de Valera'
And to sing about Sinn Féin.

[A small piece escapes me here]

"And we'll spike the guns
Of the Saxon Huns
Down by the Liffeyside".

Subject: RE: The Foggy Dew
From: Brad
Date: 29 Jun 98 - 12:23 AM

The Wolfe Tones sing this song (Down by the Liffeyside) on their 25th Anniversary CD set.

Brad

Subject: RE: The Foggy Dew
From: leprechaun
Date: 30 Jun 98 - 02:15 AM

Thank you mm, Martin and Brad.

Subject: RE: The Foggy Dew
From:
Date: 30 Jun 98 - 11:32 PM

Sud-el-Bar was one of the battles in the Gallipoli campaign, in 1915; so was Suvla Bay. At least I think so-- just got out my Amer. Heritage History of WWI to check and found Suvla in the indes but not Sud-el-Bar. It certainly SOUNDS Arabic (or Turkish) never thirst PETE PETERSON

Subject: Require Words and Guitar Chords
From: BrianBhoy
Date: 27 Dec 99 - 07:05 PM

Help!!!

Can anyone help me with the words and guitar chords for the tune The Foggy Dew???

I need it for an Irish night and would appreciate any help!!

Thanks,

Brianbhoy

Subject: RE: Lyr/Chords Req: Require Words and Guitar Chor
From: Sandy Paton
Date: 27 Dec 99 - 10:41 PM

Brian: around here, you'll have to be more specific. Which "Foggy Dew" are you asking for?

Subject: RE: Lyr/Chords Req: Require Words and Guitar Chor
From: SingsIrish Songs
Date: 28 Dec 99 - 03:36 AM

You can request it from Prof's Traditional Irish Music pages....select Music Map on the navi bar, then Songs...

Prof's Pages

http://www.prof.co.uk/irish1.htm

Tell him SingsIrish sent ya....

Mary

Subject: RE: Lyr/Chords Req: Require Words and Guitar Chor
From: Sandy Paton
Date: 29 Dec 99 - 01:31 AM

Since Brian mentioned it was for an "Irish Night" that he needed the song, I thought he might be looking for the old rebel song in which "the English huns, with their long range guns, sailed in through the foggy dew," rather than the song about the bachelor and the serving maiden. What say you, Brian? Sandy

Subject: RE: The Foggy Dew
From: GUEST,Conor
Date: 15 Jun 01 - 10:29 AM

In the North of Ireland (around Belfast at least) The word Hun is often used as a derogitory (sp) term for a protestant, in a similar vein to Taig or Fenian when describing a catholic...

Subject: RE: The Foggy Dew
From: GUEST,Ryan
Date: 08 Oct 01 - 11:06 PM

It's my understanding that "Sud-el-Bar" is actually 'Sedd el Bahr' and was indeed part of the Gallipoli campaign.

Subject: Lyr Add: THE FOGGY DEW (several songs)
From: DonMeixner
Date: 08 Oct 01 - 11:26 PM

Here is everything I could find on the Foggy Dew

Some of the Songs Titled FOGGY DEW

'Twas down the glen one Easter morn
To a city fair rode I.
When Ireland's line of marching men
In squadrons passed me by.
No pipe did hum, no battle drum
Did sound its dread tattoo
But the Angelus bell o'er the Liffey's swell
Rang out in the foggy dew.

Right proudly high over Dublin town
They flung out a flag of war.
'Twas better to die 'neath an Irish sky
Than at Suvla or Sud el Bar.
And from the plains of Royal Meath
Strong men came hurrying through;
While Britannia's sons with their long-range guns
Sailed in through the foggy dew.

Oh, the night fell black and the rifles crack
Made "Perfidious Albion" reel
'Mid the leaden rail, seven tongues of flame
Did shine o'er the lines of steel
By each shining blade, a prayer was said
That to Ireland her sons be true
And when morning broke still the war flag shook
Out its fold in the Foggy Dew.

'Twas England bade our Wild Geese go
That small nations might be free
But their lonely graves are by Suvla's waves
Or the fringe of the grey North Sea
Oh had they died by Pearse's side,
Or had fought with Cathal Brugha
Their graves we'd keep where the Fenians sleep,
'Neath the shroud of the Foggy Dew.

But the bravest fell, and the requiem bell
Rang mournfully and clear
For those who died that Eastertide
In the springing of the year
And the world did gaze, with deep amaze,
At those fearless men and true
Who bore the fight that freedom's light
Might shine through the Foggy Dew.

Ah, back through the glen I rode again,
And my heart with grief was sore
For I parted then with valiant men
Whom I never shall see more
But to and fro in my dreams I go
And I'd kneel and pray for you
For slavery fled, O glorious dead,
When you fell in the Foggy Dew.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Over the hills I went one day, a lovely maid I spied
With her coal-black hair and her mantle so green.
An image to perceive.
Says I, "Dear girl, will you be my bride
And she lifted her eyes of blue
She smiled and said, "Young man I'm to wed
I'm to meet in the foggy dew."

Over the hills I went one morn, a-singing I did go.
Met this lovely maid with her coal-black hair,
And she answered soft and low:
Said she, "Young man, I'll be your bride,
If I know that you'll be true."
Oh, in my arms, all of her charms
Were casted in the foggy dew.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Oh, a wan cloud was drawn o'er the dim weeping dawn
As to Shannon's side I return'd at last,
And the heart in my breast for the girl I lov'd best
Was beating, ah, beating, how loud and fast!
While the doubts and the fears of the long aching years
Seem'd mingling their voices with the moaning flood:
Till full in my path, like a wild water wraith,
My true love's shadow lamenting stood.

But the sudden sun kissed the cold, cruel mist
Into dancing show'rs of diamond dew,
And the dark flowing stream laugh'd back to his beam,
And the lark soared aloft in the blue;
While no phantom of night but a form of delight
Ran with arms outspread to her darling boy,
And the girl I love best on my wild throbbing breast
Hid her thousand treasures with cry of joy.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

When I was a bachelor, I lived all alone
I followed the roving trade
And the only thing that I ever did wrong
Was I courted a fair young maid.
I courted her for a summer season
And part of the winter too
And many's the night she rolled in my arms
All over the foggy dew

One night as I lay on my bed
As I lay fast asleep
She came to me at my bedside
And bitterly she did weep
She wept, she moaned, she tore her hair
She cried what shall I do
For tonight I'm determined to sleep with you
For fear of the foggy dew

All through the first part of that night
How we did sport and play
And through the second part of that night
She in my arms did lay
And when the daylight did appear
She cried I am undone
Oh hold your tongue you silly young thing
For the foggy dew is gone

Supposing you should have a child
Would make you laugh and smile
And supposing you should have another
Would make you think a while
And supposing you should have another
And another one or two
T'would make you leave off those foolish young tricks
That you played in the foggy dew

I loved that girl with all my heart
I loved her like my life
But in the second part of that year
She became another man's wife
I never told him of her faults
And I never intend to do
Nor of the times she rolled in my arms
All over the foggy dew

Again I am a bachelor; I live with my son
We work at the weaver's trade.
And every sing time I look into his eyes
He reminds me of that fair young maid.
He reminds me of the wintertime
Part of the summer, too,
And the many, many times that I held her in my arms
Just to keep her from the foggy, foggy, dew.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

When I was in my prenticeship
And learning of my trade,
I courted my master's daughter,
Which made my heart right glad.
I courted her both summer's days
And winter nights also
But I never could her favor win
Till I hired the Bogle Bo.
Day being gone, and night coming on,
My neighbour he took a sheet
And straight into her room he went
Just like a wandering spirit.
She went running up and down,
Not knowing where to go
But right into my bed she went
For fear of the Bogle Bo.

And so my true love and me,
Did both fall fast asleep,
But ere the morn at fair daylight,
Sore, sore did she weep
Sore, sore did she weep;
Sore, sore did she mourn
But ere she rose and put on her clothes,
The Bogle bo was gone.

You've done the thing to me last night,
The thing you cannot shun
You've taen from me my maidenhead,
And I am quite undone.
You've taen from me my maidenhead,
And brought my body low
But, kind sir, if you'll marry me,
I will be your jo.

Now he's married her and taen her hame,
And it was but his part
She's proved to him a loving wife,
And joy of all his heart;
He never told her of the joke,
Nor ne'er intends to do
But aye when his wife smiles on him,
He minds the Bogle bo.

Don

HTML line breaks added. --JoeClone, 3-Sep-02.

Subject: RE: The Foggy Dew
From: GUEST,Born Again Scouser
Date: 09 Oct 01 - 06:44 PM

This is one of those great songs you never seem to hear of any more. I first heard it on an LP my brother gave me for Christmas in 1969. The LP was 'A Touch Of The Blarney' by Noel Murphy and as it was on the 'Music For Pleasure' (!) label I assume it was a couple of years old even then.

I played it again a couple of weeks ago. Murphy always seems to me to be one of those people who didn't quite get the timing right. If you listen to the record now (and that song in particular) it's as moving and as powerful and as powerful as anything I've heard by Christy Moore.

Like Christy, Murphy lived in England at the time. unlike Christy, he stayed there. By the late 60/early 70s he was probably the biggest draw on the folk circuit in England, mainly becuse of his reputation as a hilarious stand-up entertainer. I'm guessing now and I'm probably wrong but I think it would have been a lot harder for Murphy to establish himself as a purveyor of the sort of political material Christy became known for in the mid-late 70s even if he had wanted to (it's perhaps not so easy to sing about the evils of the British Army when your next-door neighbours son might be a British squaddie).

So Christy became the darling of the Left and Murphy ended up playing to an ever-decreasing audience of golfers and piss-artists who didn't wnat to hear him sing so much as see him falling about playing the pissed-up paddy until Shane McGowan came along and stole his act.

Last I heard he was living in the West Country having moved away (not before time) from the crawlers, no-marks and talentless hangers-on that had come to comprise most of what was left of the folk scene in West London and the Richmond and Twickenham area in particular (not you, Derek).

I still think he's got a great album in him somewhere. Someone ought to do something about that...

Subject: RE: The Foggy Dew
From: GUEST,Irish Bard
Date: 10 Oct 01 - 09:35 AM

Hi Folks,
a few months ago I had to write an essay on the subject "The Foggy Dew". Leprechaun, if you give me your e-mail address I will send this essay to you. There's lot of information on 12 pages. It's about the song "The Foggy Dew" and the easter Rising Dublin, 1916. SO if you are interested in reading it leave your e-mail address here or write to [e-mail]
Greetings

The Irish Bard

Subject: RE: The Foggy Dew
From: JedMarum
Date: 10 Oct 01 - 09:51 AM

Mudcatter, Guinnesschick (aka Karen) sings this song beautifully with Eammons Kitchen. It's a great song and always pleases audiences, who rarely understand much of the history behind the song (Eammons Kitchen plays in the US).

Subject: RE: The Foggy Dew
From: Big Tim
Date: 10 Oct 01 - 02:10 PM

According to Soodlum's "Irish Ballad Book" (which is admittedly full of mistakes) the song was written by Father P.O'Neill (not Charles). Can anyone verify the priest's name accurately and does anyone know anything about him. It's a great song.

Subject: Lyr Add: THE FOGGY DEW
From: GUEST,Zena
Date: 18 Oct 01 - 08:51 PM

Here is a set of lyrics I found at http://www.blackbeers.rdsor.ro/foggydew.html. I don't know what their source is.

This version is very similar to that sung by McCormack. Where McC has a different word, I've placed it after the one in the text separated by a slash (eg. word in text/McC's word).

Alice, I think your awkward 'spied' in the last verse is in fact 'sighed'. My version here says 'signed' but I think that's just a typo.

Also, in this version there's a line in the first verse given as 'Sweet Anner's verdant side'. It certainly sounds like this is what McC says, but it doesn't mean anything to me. Does anyone else have any ideas about this line?

If anyone has any info on the history of this song before 1913, it would be greatly appreciated :-)

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

A down the hill I went one morn,
A lovely maid I spied.
Her hair was as/(nothing) bright as the dew that wets
Sweet Anner's verdant side.
'And where go ye, sweet maid,' said I?
She raised her eyes of blue,
And smiled and said 'The boy I wed
I'm to meet in the foggy dew.'

Go hide your blooms ye roses red
And droop ye lilies rare.
For you must pale for very shame,
Before a maid so fair.
Said I 'Dear maid, will you be me bride?'
Beneath [She raised] her eyes of blue,
She/And smiled and said, 'The boy I wed
I'm to meet in the foggy dew.'

A down the hill I went at/one morn,
A singing I did go.
A down the hill I went at/one morn,
She answer'd soft/sweet and low.
'Yes I will be your own dear bride,
And I know that you'll be true.'
Then signed/sighed in me/my arms and all her charms
Were hid/hidden in the foggy dew.

Zena

HTML line breaks added. --JoeClone, 3-Sep-02.

Subject: RE: The Foggy Dew
From: Airto
Date: 19 Oct 01 - 09:56 AM

There is a river Anner in Co. Tipperary. Sounds to me like you've got it right.

Subject: RE: The Foggy Dew
From: GUEST,Martin Ryan
Date: 19 Oct 01 - 04:25 PM

Big Tim

Wouldn't surprise me if that "P O Neill" was by way of a freudian slip! I'll see if I can check it elsewhere.

Regards

Subject: RE: The Foggy Dew
From: Alice
Date: 19 Oct 01 - 08:51 PM

Zena, Thanks so much! Yes, I'm aware of the Anner, from another song, "She Lived Beside The Anner". "Sighed" fits, too... thank you. This version of lyrics recorded by John McCormack has "Milligan-Clay" next to it on the cover. The piano accompaniment was by Spencer Clay, so I am assuming the lyrics may have been by "Milligan" and the arrangement by Spencer Clay. I've searched but have not found "Milligan". Anyone know?

Alice

Subject: RE: The Foggy Dew
From: Alice
Date: 19 Oct 01 - 09:35 PM

On a web page of John McCormack's recordings, I found other references to "Milligan":

Foggy Dew, The ("A' down the hill I went one morn...")(E. Milligan/C. Milligan Fox, arr. Spencer Clay)B 12767-1 (3 January 1913)

By the Shortcut to the Rosses (Nora Hopper/Old Irish Air, arr. C. Milligan Fox) BVE 41546-1, -2 (13 January 1928)

So there is an E. Milligan and a C. Milligan Fox...

I also found this reference on a web page for poems by Ethna Carbery (Anna MacManus), Click Here who died in 1902 : "Mrs. C. MILLIGAN FOX is arranging to have the greater number of the poems in book fitted with airs from Petrie's collection."
You might be interested also in seeing the lyrics of Rody M'Corely, as written by Ethna Carbery Click Here.

Alice

Subject: RE: The Foggy Dew
From: MartinRyan
Date: 22 Oct 01 - 04:50 AM

Alice

Alice (!) L. Milligan and Charlotte Milligan Fox were daughters of Seaton F Milligan a North of Ireland Methodist businessman and antiquary. Charlotte, in particular, was a collector - she publisehd Annnals of the irish Harpers based on Buntings collection. Alice was more literary - and more politically involved. Wrote plays, poetry essays etc.

Whicch just leaves the question of "E. Milligan"!

Regards

p.s.Source is the Dictionary of Irish Biography.

Subject: RE: The Foggy Dew
From: Big Tim
Date: 22 Oct 01 - 04:59 AM

Charlotte Milligan-Fox (1864-1916)jointly edited, with Herbert Hughes, the early issues of the Journal of the Irish Folksong Society, first issued in London in 1904. She has an entry in "Dict of Ulster Biography" (1993).

Subject: RE: The Foggy Dew
From: GUEST,Martin Ryan
Date: 22 Oct 01 - 06:53 AM

Big Tim

So she did - I have copy of the reprint edition of the journal and can suddenly see a photograph of the woman in my minds eye...! I think there was a tribute to her on her death.

Regards

Subject: RE: The Foggy Dew
From: Big Tim
Date: 22 Oct 01 - 04:19 PM

Martin, I have a copy of the original! Only cost me IR £15 recently: try Cathair Books website.(Dublin)

Subject: RE: The Foggy Dew
From: Art Thieme
Date: 22 Oct 01 - 09:30 PM

Alas, we have FOURTEEN 33 & 1/3 albums (LPs) by John M. and a turntable that quit. Some of it is on cassette but nowhere near enough. For our 35th wedding anniversary, my dream is to have all of that music put on CDs for Carol. I'm afraid that January 3rd is aproaching too quickly for me to get it done for our next celebration---but does anyone know an outfit that does this kind of thing for folks?

Art Thieme

Subject: RE: The Foggy Dew
From: Wolfgang
Date: 23 Oct 01 - 08:08 AM

As for the author, I checked all my songbooks last night. About ten with this song in them don't mention it or state 'anonymous'. Three mention an author. Soodlum's as posted above by Big Tim.
C. O'Boyle, Songs of Co. Down, says 'Canon Charles O'Neill'
C.D. Greaves, The Easter rising in song and ballads, says 'Rev. P. O'Neill'

Nothing conclusive. I'm surprised that less than a century after the song was written, the authorship can be under debate.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: The Foggy Dew
From: Big Tim
Date: 23 Oct 01 - 02:49 PM

Yes W. Shouldn't be too hard to find. Come you Dubliners!

Subject: RE: The Foggy Dew
From: GUEST, O'Brien
Date: 30 Jan 02 - 08:16 AM

Anybody know who wrote"the fighting men from Crossmaglen"

Subject: RE: The Foggy Dew
From: GUEST,Guest Ard Mhacha
Date: 30 Jan 02 - 08:36 AM

I have never heard of a song with that title, it may be The Dalin` men from Crossmaglen, sung by Tommy Makem. Ard Mhacha.

Subject: RE: The Foggy Dew
From: GUEST,Ard Macha
Date: 30 Jan 02 - 08:38 AM

Guest O`Brien you are breaking a Mudcat house rule, start a new thread. Ard Mhacha.

Subject: RE: The Foggy Dew
From: WyoWoman
Date: 30 Jan 02 - 11:59 PM

Ryan, do you have the words to "The Banks of the Moorlough Shore"?

WyoWoman

Subject: RE: The Foggy Dew
From: MartinRyan
Date: 31 Jan 02 - 02:52 AM

WyoWoman.

The version I sing is in the DT Here

Regards

Subject: RE: The Foggy Dew
From: MartinRyan
Date: 31 Jan 02 - 02:55 AM

There's also a nice version Here with notes from John Moulden.

Regards

Subject: RE: The Foggy Dew
From: leprechaun
Date: 01 Feb 02 - 02:53 AM

I thought this thread looked familiar.

Subject: RE: The Foggy Dew
From: Big Tim
Date: 01 Feb 02 - 03:21 PM

The Fighting Men of Crossmaglen is on many a rebel compilation CD, it's a good rebel song, in the tradition of Broad Black Brimmer, but very one-sided, not surprisingly. Re authorship of Foggy Dew I have since done some research in Belfast and found the following: the rebel version was written by Fr.(Canon) CHARLES O'Neill, born in Portglenone in 1887, died Newcastle (Down) in 1963. He was based in parishes in Belfast, Kilcoo and Newcastle. Buried in Newcastle. I got a photo of him with De Valera and Frank Aiken (IRA Chief of Staff in 1923 after death of Liam Lynch, and later minister in Free State Gov). Fr Charles had a brother, Patrick, also a priest with whom he is often confused re authorship of Foggy Dew. Charles NOT Patrick wrote it!

Subject: RE: The Foggy Dew
From:
Date: 01 Feb 02 - 04:59 PM

Just to put it on the map, Sedd-el-Bahr is at the end of the Gallipoli peninsula, some two kilometres from Cape Helles, and thirty kilometres from Suvla Bay. It was the scene of the initial assault on the peninsula on February 19, 1915.

The Royal Navy had been in the area for several months at that time and had had engagements with the Turks already.

Jack

Subject: RE: The Foggy Dew
From: GUEST,Zena
Date: 29 Mar 02 - 12:38 AM

I've been trying to sort out where the tune comes from and not having much luck.

Alice theorized that Milligan wrote it on the basis of the credits on the John McCormack album, but I haven't been able to substantiate this. The record I have just says "Milligan-Clay" and doesn't mention composer or arranger like the info from the McCormack website.

It sounds like Milligan may have collected the song or at least arranged it. Perhaps McCormack used Milligan's arrangement that Clay then tweaked in his accompaniment, thus the credit to Clay as well. I guess the tune and love song lyrics are both traditional, though I'm surprised that McCormack didn't identify it as such. If anyone has further info, I'd be very interested to hear it.

Zena

Subject: RE: The Foggy Dew
From: JedMarum
Date: 29 Mar 02 - 12:56 AM

Well, I don;t know where the tune comes from, but I know the tune was just meant to be played on 5 string banjo! Scruggs-style (sorta)!

We played this song at a bluegrass festival and they loved it!

Subject: RE: The Foggy Dew
From: Alice
Date: 29 Mar 02 - 09:31 AM

Hi, Zena, good to see you here again. It is the lyrics that McCormack recorded that were written by Milligan, Clay doing just the arrangement of the tune. I don't think at all that Milligan wrote the tune. C. Milligan Fox wrote poems and had them set to existing airs. I don't know that she ever wrote music. I doubt it - I think she wrote lyrics.

Alice

Subject: RE: The Foggy Dew
From: Big Tim
Date: 29 Mar 02 - 02:11 PM

The tune is traditional, almost certainly taken by Fr O'Neill from the very popular "Moorlough Shore". The origins of this song and the location of "Moorlough" or "moor lough" are uncertain but generally taken to be Moorlough Bay on the north Antrim coast, not a million miles from Portglenone where Fr O'Neill was born and raised. There was a very scholarly thread on "Moorlough Shore", last year I think.

Mrs Milligan-Fox was a sister of Alice Milligan, poet and patriot (1866-1953). It's just struck me that she was born in the same year as Mary Anne McCracken died - makes 1798 seem not all that far away!

Subject: RE: The Foggy Dew
From: leprechaun
Date: 29 Mar 02 - 06:55 PM

And I wonder if John McCormack was any relation to the Captain McCormack who was killed in the 1916 uprising. I've heard of another man born John McCormack who intended to return to Ireland from the state of Washington in 1916 to participate in the rebellion. The impending birth of his third son is likely the reason he didn't go.

Subject: RE: The Foggy Dew
From: Big Tim
Date: 30 Mar 02 - 01:54 AM

Of course I refer to the rebel version only.

Subject: RE: The Foggy Dew
From: leprechaun
Date: 31 Mar 02 - 08:41 PM

I understand he was also a tenor.

Subject: RE: The Foggy Dew
From: Dicho (Frank Staplin)
Date: 31 Mar 02 - 11:44 PM

A problem with new atlases is the use of more politically correct names. In my National Geographic, Galipoli is Gelibolu, Seddelbahr is Seddülbahir, and there is no Suvla Bay or conversion that I can see.

Subject: RE: The Foggy Dew
From: GUEST
Date: 22 Nov 02 - 08:48 PM

Can anyone clear up the P. O'Neill / C O'Neill debate for sure - who wrote the Foggy Dew? I am P O'Neill and I was brought up in the west of Scotland and taught (rightly in this climate) never to promote Irish rebel culture - but - the Foggy Dew was always in the background and remains one of the outstanding (and too good to be adopted by Glasgow "neds") Irish rebel songs.
As a P O'Neill myself, I would be interested to know who wrote this

Subject: RE: The Foggy Dew
From: Big Tim
Date: 23 Nov 02 - 04:27 AM

The authority for my post of 01 Feb 2002 is the [County] Down & Connor Diocesan Archives in Belfast. Their full entry record for Father Charles O'Neill is:

"Charles O'Neill, B.A.

Ord.[ained] on 21 July 1912.

Born in Portglenone, on 20 September 1887.
(brother to Fr. P.J.O'Neill, famed scholar of St Malachy's College [Belfast] and uncle of Revs. C. & M. Dallatt)

c.c. [curate in charge?] Whitehouse, 1915.

c.c. St. Peter's
(While c.c. in St. Peter's preached at ceremony at Mass Rock, Cushendun [Antrim] 1933 and for some of text see "Irish Colleges on Continent).

P[arish.P[riest]. Kilcoo, 15 July 1941

P.P. Newcastle 1 August 1955

Canon, October 1960

Author of the "Foggy Dew"

Died on 8 May 1963 and buried in Newcastle [County Down] cemetey behind old Church in main street."

Subject: RE: The Foggy Dew
From: GUEST,Owen
Date: 08 Oct 03 - 01:22 PM

I to was perplexed by the reference to sud el bar however I did locate an area known as Seddulbahir a region in turkey that was involved in the invasion of Gallipoli,And Suvla etc. (I believe beach V during the invasion was in this area,) during the first world war. I believe Sud el Bar is a contracted spelling of this location
Any comments?

Subject: RE: The Foggy Dew
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 08 Oct 03 - 03:09 PM

Owen, current names used in Turkey (and new maps) were posted in a thread discussing the songs about Gallipoli. Try thread 40287: Suvla
I believe that this is the one. Enter Gallipoli in search and other threads come up.

Subject: RE: The Foggy Dew
From:
Date: 03 Nov 03 - 02:21 PM

Does anyone know about the different takes of Burl Ives singing "The Foggy, Foggy Dew" (the romantic one, not the Irish revolutionary one)? On the original Stinson LP from 1949 his performance lasts 2:14. On the 1996 British CD reissue of early Ives songs there's a different take, identified as from a 1940 CBS broadcast. It's listed at 2:24, but actually only takes 1:54. What I want to know is: in what year was the version on the Stinson LP recorded?

Subject: RE: The Foggy Dew
From: GUEST,marthabees
Date: 03 Nov 03 - 08:10 PM

Alice wrote: " Then SPIED in my arms... " at the end of the song

I wonder if that's "expired"..... Seems to make sense, anyway.

Martha in Tallahassee

Subject: RE: The Foggy Dew
From: Big Tim
Date: 04 Nov 03 - 06:11 AM

Further to my post of 29 March 02 re location of "Moorlough Shore", I have traced some info that convinces me that it is located on the River Foyle, near Strabane, on the Tyrone/Donegal (and the Irish/British) border. If anyone is interested, I can look out the details and post them later.

Subject: Lyr Add: THE FOGGY DEW (Chris Green, 1998)
From: Chris Green
Date: 23 Sep 04 - 11:24 AM

Don't know if it's of interest to anyone, but I wrote this version after the Drumcree fiasco in 1998.

The Foggy Dew 1998

Through Portadown in North Armagh
one summer's morn fair rode I
And grim-faced lines of marching men
in columns passed me by
No pipe did hum, but the lambeg drum
Did sound out its wild tattoo
And the rhythmic beat of the marching feet
Rang out in the foggy dew.

Oh, the eve fell black and the rifle's crack
Volleyed plastic bullets at the mass
And the sable night was made as daylight
By the petrol bombs' blinding blast
The talks and plans for a safer land
Were torn once again in two
And the ancient sore ran with blood once more
And stained the foggy dew.

I turned away then and rode off again
And my heart with grief was keen
For the chances fled and the needless dead
And the thought of how it could have been
But to and fro in my dreams you go
And I weep and I pray for you
May you orange and green soon together keen
For your fallen in the foggy dew.

Chris

Subject: RE: The Foggy Dew
From: Big Tim
Date: 23 Sep 04 - 02:47 PM

I previously posted that the song was written in 1919, because I read that somewhere.

However, since the writer is aware of the death of Cathal Brugha, "fallen with Cathal Brugha", it couldn't have been written in 1919, as he died during the Civil War, on 7 July 1922.

Subject: RE: The Foggy Dew
From: GUEST,Pete Peterson
Date: 23 Sep 04 - 06:13 PM

From what I remember reading about the Rising (mostly the book Rebels, which is not at hand) Brugha was wounded pretty severely and lost consciousness-- would count as "fallen" to me!
Alternatively-- does "fallen" mean "fallen while fighting under the command of"?

Subject: RE: The Foggy Dew
From: Susanne (skw)
Date: 23 Sep 04 - 06:24 PM

John, is that line in the original? I've heard "fought with Cathal Brugha", which is more ambiguous, and "fought with Valera true", which does even less to fix the time of writing after 1922.

Your quotation from the Down & Connor Diocesan Archives above gives no date of authorship. Also, contrary to Martin Ryan's post of 12 Nov. 1997, Cathal O'Boyle doesn't claim the song was written in 1919:

"The words of this song were composed by Canon Charles O Neill, who was parish priest of Kilcoo and later of Newcastle. In 1919 he went to Dublin and attended a sitting of the first Dail Eireann (Irish Parliament). He was moved by the number of members whose names were answered during roll call by "faoi ghlas ag na Gaill" (locked up by the foreigners) and resolved to write a song in commemoration of the Easter Rebellion. I have seen his song printed many times but have never seen his name mentioned and I think it is about time he was recognised. The music belongs to an old love song, recorded in 1913 by John McCormack and the original manuscript of the words and music, in the possession of Kathleen Dallat of Ballycastle, names Carl Hardebeck as the arranger." (Cathal O'Boyle, 'Songs of the County Down')

Subject: RE: The Foggy Dew
From: MartinRyan
Date: 24 Sep 04 - 04:34 AM

Suzanne

I see what you mean! I'll try to check otherwise.

Regards

Subject: RE: The Foggy Dew
From: Snuffy
Date: 24 Sep 04 - 08:57 AM

Is the tune not a relation of the Star of the County Down family?

Subject: RE: The Foggy Dew
From: Mrrzy
Date: 24 Sep 04 - 02:24 PM

What about the I was a bachelor foggy foggy dew? I haven't seen it mentioned in this thread at all... I recall something vague about it being banned because the bachelor had a son, so the line "so now I am a bachelor, I live with my son" was changed to "again I am a bachelor, I live with my son" - any info on that song, origins etc? Or is that for another thread?

Subject: RE: The Foggy Dew
From: Lighter
Date: 24 Sep 04 - 03:16 PM

Many threads on "Foggy, Foggy Dew."

It was banned from the radio for many years for the very reason you suggest, and Burl Ives said he spent a night in jail once in Utah for singing it, around 1940.

Subject: RE: The Foggy Dew
From: Big Tim
Date: 25 Sep 04 - 05:33 AM

Good point Susanne. Yes, come to think of it, I've heard it sung that way too.The only way to know the date for sure is to find where and when the lyrics were first published. I'd be surprised if the answer couldn't be found in the NLI or UCD.

Subject: RE: The Foggy Dew
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 25 Sep 04 - 05:27 PM

I just want to add that Noel Murphy is still a very fine singer living near The Lizard. I saw him about 4 years ago and Derek Brimstone saw him last year. Ive got his number somewhere if you would like to book him - pm me. I got in contact when he wrote a series of enchanting articles about his childhood for the Irish Post.

he made a very creditable album with some fine musicians about five years ago, including the late and marvellously talented Aiden Ford.

Yes I suppose it was difficult in the 70's for Irish singers who lived in England - - living amongst the tide of tasteless Irish jokes the English were sheltering behind to conceal their fear of their closest neighbour. I know of at least one Irish singer who simply stopped working as an entertainer and did something else later to re-emerge.

Far more germane to to the situation was probably the sectarianism in the folk clubs around that time. Traddy versus everybody else. Immense pressure on performers to toe the party line - play in DADGAD tuned guitars, ornament simple tunes with 'grace' notes, finger in the ear, etc. The other success story of the era was of course folk comedians.

Noel was a straightforward minstrel with no po-faced pretensions and no hard edged comedy routine. i saw him round about that time doing the Boggery club in Solihull. The audience just had no concept of shutting the f--k up when he was doing something like Freeborn Man, or Rocky Road to Dublin. My god on his night though, Noel Murphy was bloody terrific and I loved his performances.

Yeh maybe he should have de-camped back to Ireland, but there were lots of great players who got it wrong there - I remember Johnny MacEvoy saying he'd got it wrong, round about the same time. And he was another jewel.

anyway peace and happiness to the lot of you!

Subject: RE: The Foggy Dew
From: GUEST,JTT
Date: 26 Sep 04 - 02:02 PM

Huns: the English liked to refer to the Germans as "Huns" at the time of the Great War, on the basis that (a) they behaved like the Huns when they ravaged Europe, and (b) they were descended from them. Irish nationalists returned the favour, for the same reasons.

Sud el Bar - a contemporary spelling:

Barnsley Royal Marines WWI


PLY 610/S L/Cpl. Chas. Harold BENFELL (No.4 Coy. Plymouth/2RM Gallipoli 1915) Demobilised 13/6/19.


Harold Benfell was one of three Barnsley lads who enlisted with Jack at Manchester 10/11/14.


Harold's account of the action at Sedd-ul-Bahr 4/3/15, from the Barnsley Chronicle, front page 10/6/16:- "On March 4th 1915, our company landed on the Gallipoli Peninsular to demolish the forts and I was one of the first to put a foot on the shore. I led the way to the entrance to the forts at Sud-el-Bar and within ten minutes of the time I received two bullets - one through the top left pocket and another under my right arm. For a second I stood gazing around to see where the man was that fired but he was concealed quite safe in some little place made for the purpose. Previous to that I signalled back to the OC that all was quite clear, the place seeming to be forsaken and quite dead; but we found it very much alive. More bullets came across and I made my way inside the forts for cover, though very little was to be found. I was followed there by two other men out of my section and we considered ourselves cut off from all communication. An hour passed away before we could get out of this place and the three of us lay there on the ruined wall which had been blown down by our ship's gun. The bullets were whizzing around us and I can assure you we had a very warm time and a lively experience. We were just cooling down when a line of heads was observed above a mound 25 yards in the rear. We three thought our time had come when just at the critical moment good luck favoured us, for instead of it being the enemy it turned out to be the remainder of our platoon, and the relief was too great for words! We managed to get back safely."

Subject: RE: The Foggy Dew
From: GUEST,Cathal Brugha
Date: 19 Oct 04 - 11:17 PM

Can someone please help me with the pronunciation of Cathal Brugha. I've heard:

Cat hull brug
Ca hal Brug
Ca hal brug ha
Ca hal Brew

Subject: RE: The Foggy Dew
From: Susanne (skw)
Date: 20 Oct 04 - 04:28 PM

Not really an expert, but on the Dubliners recording I have the last version is used.

Subject: RE: The Foggy Dew
From: GUEST,bats
Date: 21 Oct 04 - 04:24 PM

I didn't know the version of "Foggy Dew" that mentions Suvla but that battle is also mentioned in Eric Bogle's "The band played Waltzing Matilda". It had me puzzled for years, I thought it was "Sula Bay" and couldn't find it in the Atlas
    And how well I remember that terrible day,
    How our blood stained the sand and the water
    And of how in that hell that they called Suvla Bay
    We were butchered like lambs at the slaughter.
    Johnny Turk, he was ready, he primed himself well.
    He showered us with bullets, and he rained us with shells,
    And in five minutes flat, he'd blown us all to hell,
    Nearly blew us back home to Australia.

Subject: RE: The Foggy Dew
From: Susanne (skw)
Date: 21 Oct 04 - 05:45 PM

This thread has more info on the names in 'The Band Played Waltzing Matilda', I think. Seems you're not the only one puzzled by 'Sula' or 'Suvla'.

Subject: RE: The Foggy Dew (NOT Bachelor)
From: An Buachaill Caol Dubh
Date: 14 Aug 06 - 12:09 PM

I know it's a long time since this thread was current, but it may be of interest to add that John McC actually recorded TWO songs, "The Foggy Dew"; the one to which reference is made here, "As down the hill I rode one morn..." in 1913, and earlier, I think 1908, the slow one beginning "A wan cloud was drawn o'er the dim, weeping dawn". Incidentally, I hear two lines rather differently from suggestions given here, tho it's true that both of these acoustic recordings suffer from surface hiss: the maiden's eyes were
"bright as the dew that weeps
On the Shannon's verdant side", and at the end she
"The sigh'd in mine arms
And all her charms
Were hidden... in the Foggy Dew"

Subject: RE: The Foggy Dew (NOT Bachelor)
From: GUEST,jak
Date: 10 May 07 - 06:30 PM

hi, im new o the thread, but i was wondering if anyone had any more information on the the version of the song by the dubliners ( the when i was a batchelour airy and young i followed the roving trade)

i know its similar lyrically to other versions but the dubliners version is in a minor key, as opposed to the happier version i've heard commonly

thanxs for any information

[e-mail]

Subject: RE: The Foggy Dew (NOT Bachelor)
From: leprechaun
Date: 03 Jun 08 - 05:27 PM

Hi. It's me again.

Subject: RE: The Foggy Dew (NOT Bachelor)
From: GUEST,Cathal Brugha
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 11:08 AM

Just noticed this question about the pronunciation of my and my grandafther's name.
Generally Cathal is pronounced "Co hul" or, in Dublin, "Ca hal"

In the song Foggy Dew Brugha is pronounced using the Irish (language) version "Bru"

The English (language) version is pronounced "Bru a"

Subject: RE: The Foggy Dew (NOT Bachelor)
From: GUEST,guest
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 12:53 PM

An earlier post mention Sinead O'Connor's version.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=13MQFCfCYdQ

However, she does sing "Moorlough Shore" as well, so perhaps that's where the confusion with lyrics comes in.

Subject: RE: The Foggy Dew (NOT Bachelor)
From: GUEST,Minna
Date: 18 Aug 08 - 06:29 PM

Hello,

I'm doing my bachelor's thesis on Irish nationalist music (most likely songs about Easter Rising) and I'm thinking of analysing The Foggy Dew. My problem is that I cannot find information about when the song was written and I can't get much out of the song itself. In many books (and also here) it's said to be written after 1919 and the earliest recordings and references in books I've found are from the 1940s/1950s. Can anyone help me? (I also need to know where the information is from to put it in the bibliography.) Another problem I have is the lyricist of the song. It seems to me that Charles O'Neill is the most believable author but I don't have any sources of that. I cannot find O'Boyle's book from Finland (at least in libraries) or travel to visit the archives in Ireland... Good someone recommend another book, website etc?

I already gave up on this song once because of these problems but decided to give it another try. I'd love to compare it with Erin go Bragh (Row in the Town). That might even give me a good basis to build on in my master's thesis... But that's still far away. Thank you for your help in advance.

Minna

Subject: RE: The Foggy Dew (NOT Bachelor)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Aug 08 - 12:57 PM

Minna:
In C Desmond Greaves' book 'The Easter Rising in Song and Ballad' the author of 'Foggy Dew' is given as The Rev. P. O'Neill - no more information, but I'll pass it on if I find it.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: The Foggy Dew (NOT Bachelor)
From: Minna
Date: 20 Aug 08 - 06:37 PM

Thank you, Jim, for your fast reply. I found some information about that book in the Internet but couldn't find it from Finland (surprise surprise...). Is it said where the name of the author was found? It's quite annoying to notice the information often go in circles. E.g. I have this book on Irish songs and it tells almost the exact same origins of the song as mentioned in this thread (author Charles O'Neill etc.). I checked the bibliography and found that www.mudcat.org is mentioned there...

Subject: RE: The Foggy Dew (NOT Bachelor)
From: Susanne (skw)
Date: 20 Aug 08 - 08:21 PM

Some more info, though I doubrt it is very helpful academically:

[19??:] The words of this song were composed by Canon Charles O Neill, who was parish priest of Kilcoo and later of Newcastle. In 1919 he went to Dublin and attended a sitting of the first Dail Eireann (Irish Parliament). He was moved by the number of members whose names were answered during roll call by "faoi ghlas ag na Gaill" (locked up by the foreigners) and resolved to write a song in commemoration of the Easter Rebellion. I have seen his song printed many times but have never seen his name mentioned and I think it is about time he was recognised. The music belongs to an old love song, recorded in 1913 by John McCormack and the original manuscript of the words and music, in the possession of Kathleen Dallat of Ballycastle, names Carl Hardebeck as the arranger. (Cathal O'Boyle, 'Songs of the County Down')

Maybe someone can supply the year of publication for O'Boyle?

Subject: RE: The Foggy Dew (NOT Bachelor)
From: Minna
Date: 23 Aug 08 - 01:36 PM

Thanks Susanne. There's at least an edition from 1979. If someone has the book, I'd really appreciate if they could check the references/bibliography if they exist. Where did O'Boyle get that information from?

Subject: RE: The Foggy Dew (NOT Bachelor)
From: Minna
Date: 28 Aug 08 - 03:55 PM

refresh

Subject: RE: The Foggy Dew (NOT Bachelor)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Aug 08 - 06:29 AM

Minna
Sorry - lost the thread- so to speak.
Greaves' ref. to P O'Neill is certainly wrong - it's a sloppily researched book with virtually no references.
Songs of County Down ed. Cathal O'Boyle Pub. Gilbert Dalton, Dublin 1973.
The book gives no more information than you already have.
The two friends I would automatically have gone to for this information, Tom Munnelly and and Frank Harte, are now, sadly no longer with us.
Somebody you could ask is John Moulden, contributor to this forum occasionally, and a mine of information. I might be seeing him tonight, otherwise you could pm him - lovely feller.
Martin Ryan, also a member, is extremely knowledgable, but might be on holiday- try him.
The Irish Traditional Music Archive, 73 Merrion Square, Dublin 2 might have some more information, but you will probably have to write or phone [phone] - or fax [phone]).
In the meantime, I'll keep looking - you've got me quite intrigued myself.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: The Foggy Dew (NOT Bachelor)
From: GUEST,Martin Ryan
Date: 29 Aug 08 - 01:58 PM

Just back from holidays, Jim! (as a result of which I will miss tomorrow nights session in Miltown, unfortunately).

Earlier in this thread, Big Tim did the sensible thing and checked the parish records! That seemed to confirm the Charles name - and I've stuck to my Freudian analysis of "P O'Neill" ever since! Most of the Web references go round in ever-decreasing circles and contribute nothing to the debate. There is just one (recent) newspaper reference to "Patrick O'Neill" as author. Given that the paper is based in Newry - I'm intrigued.

Regards

Subject: RE: The Foggy Dew (NOT Bachelor)
From: MartinRyan
Date: 01 Sep 08 - 04:35 PM

Refresh

Subject: RE: The Foggy Dew (NOT Bachelor)
From: Minna
Date: 02 Sep 08 - 02:36 AM

Hello,

Thank you Jim and Martin. I found that newspaper article and read it. I'm also planning to search the Irish Newspaper Archives for older references as soon as I get to the University and have a printer. But if that doesn't help contacting the Irish Traditional Music Archive would be a good place to ask as you suggested, Jim. I think I'll also have to see if I can contact the County Down & Connor Diocesan Archives where the information about Charles is from.

Minna

Subject: RE: The Foggy Dew (NOT Bachelor)
From: Minna
Date: 03 Sep 08 - 02:58 PM

Hello,

Today I had the chance to check the Irish Newspaper Archives and here's what I found:

1. the earliest completely certain reference to the song was in Meath Chronicle on October 28, 1922. That article doesn't really tell anything about the song but there's a part of the first verse.
2. some older articles mentioned "modern" or "most recent" version of Foggy Dew but I cannot know for sure which version they mean. I found these references from the time period January 3, 1920 - July 15, 1922. There might be more than one "modern" Foggy Dew these articles are refering to.
3. some articles also had some verses or even the whole song but the author wasn't mentioned. (e.g. in November 11, 1954 Leitrim Observer The Foggy Dew was under "Old Songs and Ballads" with no information about the origins.)
4. and finally, what was told about the author:

This is what Leitrim Observer says about the issue on June 8, 1957. ("The Foggy Dew", page 6, I don't know the writer of the article.)
' - - the version of "The Foggy Dew" (the words by Rev. Charles O'Neill, who was a Curate in St. Peter's Church, Belfast, about the time of the Rising). He adapted his verses to the melody of "The Foggy Dew" which was first printed in "Songs of the Irish Harpers," edited and arranged by Charlotte Milligan Fox.'
Then the article continues to tell about the origins of the melody and briefly discusses the meaning of "foggy dew". Later in the article the writer continues:
'When Father O'Neill adapted the air for his stirring song, he had the good fortune to be associated with the late Carl G. Hardebeck, who was then an organist in one of the Belfast churches. Mr. Hardebeck retained the melody as published by Mrs. Fox, but gave it a vigorous setting, so that it sounds quite different than the old folk song. Hardebeck gave militant touch to the accompaniment, which never fails to arouse an Irish audience to a high pitch of enthousiasm. In his lyrics, Father O'Neill stresses the fact that Irishmen who are duped in the service of Britain, receive very little recognition form the British Government after all the tumult and shouting has died down.'
And the article goes on with this analysis until it ends with lyrics to the song.

Reverend T. J. Lavin, Ph.D., M.A. in "Poets of the Easter Week" (page 8) in Irish Independent, April 7, 1969:
'Father Charles O'Neill of Belfast wrote the "Foggy Dew", a song that still stirs nostalgic memories in most of us, for it was sung in thousands of homes throughout the length and breadth of Ireland during the long and dark but glorious nights of the Black and Tan era.' (Lavin also writes about O'Neill: 'Other fine songs he wrote, too, for his sensitive nature was deeply moved by the glorious deed of the dead patriots.')

Especially the writer of the article in Leitrim Observer seems to know what they are talking about. And I think it's likely that the song was written between 1919 and 1921 based on both the references on news about concerts from that time and the couple of mentions that the song was sung during the Anglo-Irish War. What do you think? Am I completely wrong with this interpretation?

Minna

Subject: RE: The Foggy Dew (NOT Bachelor)
From: MartinRyan
Date: 03 Sep 08 - 03:24 PM

Minna

No - I reckon you're completely right!

Good work.

Regards

Subject: RE: The Foggy Dew (NOT Bachelor)
From: Minna
Date: 05 Sep 08 - 06:00 AM

Hello,

I hope this information will also help someone else. Actually I shouldn't have published any text from the newspapers online but if anyone wants to know something more about those articles, just PM me. I still want to thank everyone who helped me to get information. And if someone has more information about Charles O'Neill (or the song itself) I'd be glad to hear about it.

Minna

Subject: RE: The Foggy Dew (NOT Bachelor)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Sep 08 - 10:15 AM

Minna,
Thanks for your work - I hadn't realised how little I knew about a song I grew up with.
I would appreciate any further information you come up with - (perhaps even the meaning of the term 'foggy dew'!!!).
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: The Foggy Dew (NOT Bachelor)
From: Thompson
Date: 05 Sep 08 - 01:40 PM

The foggy dew just describes a typical early morning in an Irish glen; I remember driving up the mountains to go hillwalking a few years ago and passing Glenasmole just as the sun was warming it - the glen was steaming like a kettle, with clouds of fog boiling up out of it.

A few points: "As down the glen one Easter morn..." - Easter is the time of the Easter Rising, and the armed men in squadrons who passed by in silence were marching to take part in that rising.

On the other hand, I don't know what the Angelus (rung at noon and 6pm) is doing ringing at the time when you'd be heading in to a fair!

If it's ringing over the Liffey, the singer is presumably somewhere on the circle of the river between the Sally Gap in Wicklow and its debouchment into the sea in Dublin city centre.

Better to die 'neath an Irish sky than at Suvla or Sud-al-Bar - this refers to the choice made by Irish Volunteers; the majority joined the British Army to fight in World War I for the implied promise of 'Home Rule'; the others fought the British in Ireland.

(A question slightly clouded by the fact that hundreds of thousands then returned home in 1918 and joined in the War of Independence, rejoining the Irish Volunteers to fight the British, after the suppression of Irish nationalism and the execution of the leaders of the Rising.)

Royal Meath: Meath, the county where Tara is, was the old seat of the High Kings, and an important religious and cultural site. Sign's on it, the Irish government is now driving a motorway through Skryne Valley, where Tara is sited.

Brittania's Huns - the British referred to the Germans as 'Huns'; this is turning their own insult back on them.

Wild Geese - the Catholic aristocracy of Ireland were forced into emigration en masse in the 18th century, where they became mercenaries in the armies of Europe; cf "Was it for this the Wild Geese spread/ a grey wing on every tide?"

Lonely graves by Suvla or the waves of the grey North Sea - the two areas where there were the greatest number of Irish Volunteers (now in the British Army) slaughtered in the Great War. And Ulster Volunteers too, of course.

That 'small nations might be free' - the recruiting catchcry of the British at the start of the war was the brutal treatment of 'small nations' such as Belgium by the Germans (who were indeed brutal) - the point being made here is that Ireland too is a small nation, itself being brutalised by an empire.

Had they died by Pearse's side and fought with Cathal Brugha - Pearse was the leader of the 1916 Rising, and Cathal Brugha the Minister for Defence in the first Dail, if I'm remembering rightly; Brugha was killed fighting for the Republic during the Civil War, which lasted until 1923.

Where the Fenians sleep - a dual reference, to the Fianna, the warrior poets who were under the command of Fionn Mac Cumhaill in the myth, and also to the 19th-century revolutionary group of which Tom Clarke, one of the seven signatories of the 1916 Proclamation of Independence, was a member.

Perfidious Albion - originally 'perfide Albion', perfidious England, in the 17th-century French insult.

The rest is more or less free of metaphor, I think.

I hope this is some help, and expect a bottle of champagne on your graduation, Minna!

I assume you also know the Foggy Dew that starts "As down by the glenside, I met an old woman"

Subject: RE: The Foggy Dew (NOT Bachelor)
From: Thompson
Date: 05 Sep 08 - 01:43 PM

Incidentally, 'down the glen' is old-fashioned but still current slang in Ireland for 'rightly fucked', but this usage comes from a different song, with the line "Down the glen rode Sarsfield's men, and they wore their jackets green". In fact 'jackets green' is also shorthand for the same usage.

For instance:
"How are the Waterford team doing in the final?"
"Jackets green."
"Oh dear."

Subject: RE: The Foggy Dew (NOT Bachelor)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Sep 08 - 04:29 PM

Thomson,
Thanks for that.
Easter week is one of my interests - but it is good to see it articulated as well as that.
I was really referring to the ambiguity of the of the traditional version - where nobody appears to know the meaning of 'the foggy dew'.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: The Foggy Dew (NOT Bachelor)
From: GUEST,Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 Sep 08 - 08:13 AM

Minna says that Irishmen were "duped" into serving in WW1
Thompson says they volunteered for " an implied promise of home rule."
I suggest they volunteered for the same reason as English, Scottish, Welsh, Cornish and Empire volunteers. That they believed in the cause. Is it not an insult to brave men to deny that they knew what they were fighting for? Or is there any evidence for that?

Minna says they received little recognition from the british government.
In what way did they receive less than the English, Scottish, Welsh etc. veterans?
(Except that no monument was erected in Dublin after the war, but you can hardly blame British government for that.)

Subject: RE: The Foggy Dew (NOT Bachelor)
From: Minna
Date: 06 Sep 08 - 08:42 AM

Hello,

I'm sorry if my message gives the wrong impression. I was only quoting a newspaper article from the 1950s so that was not my opinion. It belongs to the writer of that article.

Minna

Subject: RE: The Foggy Dew (NOT Bachelor)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 Sep 08 - 09:40 AM

Thanks Minna.
You were quoting the Leitrim Observer writing about Father O'Neil's song.

Subject: RE: The Foggy Dew (NOT Bachelor)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Sep 08 - 10:06 AM

Keith,
It really boils down to whether you think WW1 was a 'worthy cause' - personally I believe it to have been senseless butchery in support of a cause which amounted to little more than a family squabble between various European Royal families. The Irish were not the only ones 'duped' into participating in the slaughter - and eventually the Russians showed good sense in walking away from it all.
There is a remarkable description in Thomas M Coffey's excellent account of The Easter Rising, 'Agony At Easter', telling how the rebels had to be protected from a mob of screaming women gathered outside the GPO demanding "Why aren't you out there supporting our boys in the trenches".   
Ironically it was British mindless brutality in executing the leaders of the uprising which reversed the situation and made the fight for independence a popular one.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: The Foggy Dew (NOT Bachelor)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 Sep 08 - 10:21 AM

Jim, we have the benefit of nearly a hundred years of hindsight.
Did THEY believe in the cause?
That Dublin mob certainly did.

And even from our perspective, The Kaiser presided over a pretty nasty regime. Should they have been allowed to occupy most of the continent?

In the years running up to the war, Sinn Fein went bust lacking any support.
Would hundreds of thousands have marched off to a foreign war, for an implied promise of something they were not even bothered to vote for?

Subject: RE: The Foggy Dew (NOT Bachelor)
From: Minna
Date: 06 Sep 08 - 01:52 PM

Thank you for the information and congratulations, Thompson. Jim, you asked about the meaning of "foggy dew". In the Leitrim Observer article they gave almost exactly the same explanation as Thompson. "It would seem to be merely a Gaelic poetical term..." as the writer puts it.

Subject: RE: The Foggy Dew (NOT Bachelor)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 Sep 08 - 03:12 PM

It has the sound of Gaelic poetry, but it is also heard in older English song.
He may still have written the line independently, but it is at least
possible that he just liked the sound of the line in the older song.

Subject: RE: The Foggy Dew (NOT Bachelor)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Sep 08 - 03:27 PM

Keith:
"The Kaiser presided over a pretty nasty regime."
So did the king - as witnessed by our popularity throughout the Empire. We were still slaughtering our 'colonial brothers' in Kenya and Malaya well after WW2 (The War To End All Wars)
"Would hundreds of thousands have marched off to a foreign war, for an implied promise of something they were not even bothered to vote for?"
You mean like "A land fit for heroes to live in?" - yes, they certainly would/did and they returned from the carnage of the trenches to the the mass unemployment and squalor of the great depression. Many of the men who fought in the trenches were shipped off as Black and Tans and Auxiliaries to suppress the Irish. Apart from the Easter Week executions one of the factors that led up to Irish independence was Britain's threat to bring in compulsory conscription. The recruiting techniques were outlined beautifully in volume one of Lewis Grassic Gibbon's 'The Scots Quair, and in Joan Littlewood's 'Oh What A Lovely War'(among other works).
The majority of the population (women) did not get the vote until 1919 (Catholics in the North of Ireland only received the vote comparatively recently - hence the Civil Rights Movement and the Troubles which broke out in the 70s).
Minna,
The term 'Foggy Dew' occurs in (in fact it gives its name to) an extremely popular English folk-song. The meaning is obscure - there have been rain-forests of paper and oceans of ink used in discussing what it refers to (probably a sexual reference), pretty much without reaching any satisfactory conclusion.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: The Foggy Dew (NOT Bachelor)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 Sep 08 - 04:00 PM

Jim, everything changed after the Easter rebels were executed.
Before that I see little evidence of anti British feeling in Ireland.

Or in the Empire, whose people, like the Irish, were very willing to fight for Britain.
Things were very different in the German African colonies where harsh rule and genocide were the inflicted on the peoples.

We have the letters of thousands of WW1 soldiers as a historical source to tell us why they volunteered. It was because they believed in the cause.

Subject: RE: The Foggy Dew (NOT Bachelor)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 Sep 08 - 04:13 PM

Piece about German SW Africa

Subject: RE: The Foggy Dew (NOT Bachelor)
From: Thompson
Date: 06 Sep 08 - 04:23 PM

The fact that the Irish Volunteers joined the British Army en masse after John Redmond pledged in the House of Commons that they would do so in exhange for the promise of Home Rule suggests that this was their reason, I'd say!

Certainly any I met as old men gave that as their reason, rather than wanting to fight the German Empire, which they didn't see as nastier than the British Empire.

Subject: RE: The Foggy Dew (NOT Bachelor)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Sep 08 - 03:40 AM

Keith,
Do you really think that is what WW1 was about? Rather, I would have thought that was what Empire was about
All this is reminiscent of the propaganda posters of the time. Perhaps you would like to tell us of German troops raping women and bayoneting babies?
If anything, the war took place for world financial, political and military dominance, and as with most wars of this type, those who bore the brunt of it had the least to gain by their sacrifice. The murderous cynicism with which it was directed (on all sides) decimated a generation.
I really thought that this was now widely accepted.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: The Foggy Dew (NOT Bachelor)
From: Minna
Date: 07 Sep 08 - 04:07 AM

Hello,

Of course you are right, Jim and Keith. That was careless of me to use the quote like that. My guess is that the article's author just wants to ignore that foggy dew doesn't originate from "Gaelic" poetry (or it might even be that he doesn't know it). I didn't really pay attention to that so than you for pointing it out.

That's a very interesting conversation you are having about WWI. Although I know quite a lot about it, it's rare to hear debates such as this about it. (The situation is very different here because, as you know, Finland didn't really get very involved in the war - in fact the country didn't exist until 1917. And then Finns had their own bloody civil war to fight.) There are a couple of things I'd like to point out which are true about every war. Firstly, people don't become soldiers just for one reason. I'm sure all of the motives mentioned existed. Some probably joined to get Home Rule for Ireland, some felt that they went to fight against an evil state, some might have just needed a job and some money (remember, that WWI was supposed to be a very short war and all over Europe people were celebrating the beginning of it). It's impossible to explain these kind of things with just one theory. Secondly, you were writing about cruelty in wars. There's a lot of (especially recent) research about different wars that has come to the conclusion that "cruel or unusual" methods such as genocide, other killing campaigns and raping are often more or less a standard method of the army using them. It is very often organized and widely spread. Of course afterwards, the army often tries to find some individuals to put the blame on for claiming them to be exceptions and perhaps psychologically sick etc. As everyone knows, winners write the history and they tend to try to justify their deeds by highlighting their opponents' wrongs. Thus, many people haven't heard about what happened in Rome when the US troops arrived there during WWII: many women were raped by the soldiers. And there's the much more widely known fact, that some of the world's first concentration camps were in Finland after our civil war and the one organizing them was the state.

But now I'm going way too far from Ireland and from the subject so I'd better end this message here. I just needed to point out that there are extremely few black-and-white issues in the world, especially in the wars.

Minna

Subject: RE: The Foggy Dew (NOT Bachelor)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Sep 08 - 04:40 AM

Jim, I was only talking about the beliefs of the men who volunteered for the war.
I think that history is on my side about the nature of the kaiser's regime.
Also, German atrocities against the civillian population in Belgium in 1914 are an established historical fact and not just allied propaganda.
But we have been here before, you will not be convinced, and this is a music thread.
It is still a good song.

Subject: RE: The Foggy Dew (NOT Bachelor)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Sep 08 - 04:42 AM

Minna, fine post. Thank you.

Subject: RE: The Foggy Dew (NOT Bachelor)
From: Teribus
Date: 07 Sep 08 - 05:53 AM

"Apart from the Easter Week executions one of the factors that led up to Irish independence was Britain's threat to bring in compulsory conscription."

Conscription in Ireland was never considered by the British Government, it was the "rumour" that conscription was going to be introduced that made it a factor. The "rumour" of course was completely unfounded.

Another "rumour" was the ones about "lines of marching men" rallying to the cause that Easter Week in 1916 - There was no-one coming and very little support for Pearce's rising - and Pearce knew that full well, so the "rumour" was spread to hearten those he had gathered.

Subject: RE: The Foggy Dew (NOT Bachelor)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Sep 08 - 04:38 PM

Keith
"Jim, I was only talking about the beliefs of the men who volunteered for the war."
My very first venture into collecting was in the late sixties when I recorded an old Liverpool docker, Tommy Kenny.
Little more than a child, Tommy had lied about his age, enlisted, and was sent off to the trenches 'somewhere in Europe'.
He had been sold the idea, not out of any sense of 'cause' or 'duty', but purely as an 'adventure that would make a man of him'.
I spent two incredibly harrowing days recording those 'adventures'.
The climax of the 'adventure' was when he burst into tears after describing the men who 'just walked away from the noise'. They made no effort to hide or evade capture; just turned around and walked the other way.
They were rounded up like straying sheep, tried, invariably found guilty, sentenced to death by shooting and locked up to await execution.
If there was a push on, they were taken out of the prison, put in the front line and ordered to fight.
If they survived that, they were then taken out and shot.
Tommy burst into tears when he described the several occasion when he came across notices pinned up naming men he had been fighting next to a day or so previously who had undergone this barbarity.
Of course, he could have stayed at home and waited to be given 'a white feather' - to help his 'beliefs along maybe!
I have to say that Tommy, when I recorded him, regarded the 'Great' war and those who brought it about with as much contempt as I do.
I'm sure those who flocked to The Hitler Youth and the Nazi Party (including the present Pope) did so for a variety of reasons.
Regarding the German atrocities; isn't it always the victor who writes the history books and decides which is an atrocity and which 'necessary' or even 'a glorious victory' - that's why Dresden, Hiroshima and Nagasaki are described as such and not what they really were - the wholesale slaughter of non-combatants; and that's why we now have 'special rendition' and 'collateral damage' and (most cynical of all 'friendly fire' instead of torture, 'killing civilians' and killing off your own men.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: The Foggy Dew (NOT Bachelor)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Sep 08 - 03:49 AM

Jim, let's leave WW2 to another thread.
Also, we are all aware that WW1 was bad. No need for a long emotive post.
The issue of why men volunteered you left untouched.
Young men like yours, with a yearning for adventure, have always been drawn to the army. Peace or war.
We have to explain why a million or so from these islands volunteered specifically for this war.
They mostly left steady jobs and loving families.
Families and friends and lovers encouraged them. (We don't want to lose you, But we think you ought to go.)
Why?
For adventure?
No. It had to be a cause fervently believed in.

The armies of a brutal, military regime were sweeping through France and the Low Countries with no guaruntee that they would stop at the Channel.
I suggest that alone would have been enough, without the reports of atrocities.

Were there allied atrocities against civillians that were suppressed?
No. The allies were fighting a defensive war against invading armies on their own territory.
German atrocities may have been exagerated, but the happened.
6000 Belgian civillians in the first week.
You can visit the towns and read the names.
http://www.firstworldwar.com/source/germanatrocities_usreport.htm
http://www.historyofwar.org/bookpage/lipkes_rehearsals.html
Why did Irish men volunteer?
No brainer.
Look at the Irish newspapers of 1914.
You will not find a column inch about implied promises of home rule.
Sinn Fein, by its utter failure, showed that there was absolutely no interest in it.
But you will find acres of print about the threat from the evil Hun.

Subject: RE: The Foggy Dew (NOT Bachelor)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Sep 08 - 05:11 AM

Extract from my first link.
One of the most sorely tried communities was that of the little village of Tamines, down in what is known as the Borinage, the coal fields near Charleroi. Tamines is a mining village in the Sambre; it is a collection of small cottages sheltering about 5,000 inhabitants, mostly all poor labourers.

The little graveyard in which the church stands bears its mute testimony to the horror of the event. There are hundreds of new-made graves, each with its small wooden cross and its bit of flowers; the crosses are so closely huddled that there is scarcely room to walk between them. The crosses are alike and all bear the same date, the sinister date of August 22, 1914.

Whether their hands were cut off or not, whether they were impaled on bayonets or not, children were shot down, by military order, in cold blood. In the awful crime of the Rock of Bayard, there overlooking the Meuse below Dinant, infants in their mothers' arms were shot down without mercy. The deed, never surpassed in cruelty by any band of savages, is described by the Bishop of Namur himself.

This scene surpasses in horror all others; the fusillade of the Rock Bayard near Dinant. It appears to have been ordered by Colonel Meister. This fusillade made many victims among the nearby parishes, especially those of des Rivages and Neffe. It caused the death of nearly 90 persons, without distinction of age or sex. Among the victims were babies in arms, boys and girls, fathers and mothers of families, even old men.

It was there that 12 children under the age of 6 perished from the fire of the executioners, 6 of them as they lay in their mothers' arms: the child Fievet, 3 weeks old; Maurice Betemps, 11 months old; Nelly Pollet, 11 months old; Gilda Genon, 18 months old; Gilda Marchot, 2 years old; Clara Struvay, 2 years and 6 months.

The pile of bodies comprised also many children from 6 to 14 years. Eight large families have entirely disappeared. Four have but one survivor. Those men that escaped death -and many of whom were riddled with bullets - were obliged to bury in a summary and hasty fashion their fathers, mothers, brothers, or sisters; then after having been relieved of their money and being placed in chains they were sent to Cassel [Prussia].

Subject: RE: The Foggy Dew (NOT Bachelor)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Sep 08 - 09:43 AM

Thompson, sorry I overlooked your 6th Sept post.
"The fact that the Irish Volunteers joined the British Army en masse after John Redmond pledged in the House of Commons that they would do so in exhange for the promise of Home Rule ..."

Remember, they already had that promise. The Bill was passed in May.
Redmond just had to agree to postpone it.

The Irish Volunteers (16th Irish Division) have a web site.
http://freespace.virgin.net/sh.k/xvidiv.html

Subject: RE: The Foggy Dew (NOT Bachelor)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Sep 08 - 12:07 PM

Got to Flanders, climb into a trench, get blown to smithereens - great adventure!
Summed up wonderfully for me a few years go on a beermat in a Scottish pub:
"Unemployed - Join The Army"
At the time they forgot to mention the bit about being shipped to Ulster to be slaughtered there - another great adventure.
I assume you would have no problems with having any members of your family being sent on an 'adventure' in Iraq or Afghanistan - sorry, rhetorical question - you wouldn't mind a bit.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: The Foggy Dew (NOT Bachelor)
From: GUEST,The Recruiting Sergeant
Date: 08 Sep 08 - 12:23 PM

When I told a young lad in Ireland that he'd "look fine in Khaki", he replied,

"Let English men for England fight,
It's just about time ye started, O..."

Having wished me a "jooly good night", he there and then departed (O)

Subject: RE: The Foggy Dew (NOT Bachelor)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Sep 08 - 03:54 AM

Jim, I am not a pacifist, but I am not a warmonger either.
Why do you try to personalise it anyway?
It is not about us, but the generation of 1914.
They chose to oppose a cruel invading army that was carving its way through Europe.
You cannot seem to come to terms with that fact.
It may not suit your socioeconomic theories, but that is what happened.

Subject: RE: The Foggy Dew (NOT Bachelor)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Sep 08 - 09:07 AM

....and Jim, I specifically said that adventure had nothing to do with it. There have always been lads like your Tommy who join for that, but they are not who we are discussing.

Subject: RE: The Foggy Dew (NOT Bachelor)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Sep 08 - 02:47 PM

Keith,
I apologise if my postings sound personalised - it really wasn't my intention.
It's simply that I find myself unable to get my head around the jingoism that sent millions to their deaths (even in retrospect).
I think we locked horns once before over the film about the death of Kipling's son.
For me, Kipling, as somebody who was quite prepared to send British youth to their deaths for an obscure cause, only changing his mind when the consequences of his attitude touched him personally, will forever symbolise the hypocrisy of Imperialist wars.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: The Foggy Dew (NOT Bachelor)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Sep 08 - 05:24 PM

OK Jim.
Had they only known what the next 4 years would bring.
All the silly songs and hooplah would have ended.

But the Kaiser would still have had his mad plans.

Subject: RE: The Foggy Dew (NOT Bachelor)
From: Thompson
Date: 09 Sep 08 - 06:29 PM

Keith A, Home Rule had been promised at various stages from, I think, 1850, and invariably 'postponed' as the Unionists objected to it. It was a carrot that kept jerking ahead of the Irish donkey.

Teribus, you're actually a little inaccurate about the 1916 Rising. Pearse (not Pearce) and the other leaders were stymied by the treachery of Eoin MacNeill, who (according to Tom Clarke in speaking to his wife before his execution) agreed to sign the Proclamation of Independence, then sneaked off and put an advertisement in the newspapers cancelling the 'exercises' that were in fact to be the Rising.

Thousands who were due to come out then stood down, and many were arrested and interned by the British. So were thousands who had no military involvement, but who then became involved due to the 'university for revolution' that was the internment camps.

Then when the Great War finished and the Irish Volunteers came home, many of these joined the released internees in the War of Independence (or as the British prefer to call it, the 'Anglo-Irish War'!)

However, all this is a long time ago; we've had an independent country since 1923 and an independent republic since 1949 - there's no point in fighting it all over again. I write merely to clarify.

Subject: RE: The Foggy Dew (NOT Bachelor)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 Sep 08 - 03:24 AM

Just to clarify your clarification, it was more than a promise of home rule.
The bill had been passed by parliament.
It was a done deal.
No one could stop it becoming law.
And that had NEVER happened before.

Subject: RE: The Foggy Dew (NOT Bachelor)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Sep 08 - 05:44 AM

"But the Kaiser would still have had his mad plans."
It's called 'Empire Building'
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: The Foggy Dew (NOT Bachelor)
From: GUEST,Colm JPK
Date: 21 Sep 08 - 08:03 PM

100,000 Ulster Volunteers threatening sedition against Her Majesty's" government; the Curragh Mutiny.....The British would have backed down from the Home Rule Bill with or without WWI. And who knows, without the war of independence and the civil war there might have been a truly massive civil war and bloodletting throughout the whole 32 counties.

Also, surely the British government must have been worried that massive bloodshed in Ireland, whether through an all-Ireland civil war, or through allout repression of Sinn Fein, would have made them pariah's in the world and would have even more quickly undermined their Empire, abroad, and more tellingly at home, than what happened in fact.

Keith from Hertford seems to be trying to re-write WWI to make his beloved homeland out to be so noble (or its propaganda system so effective). Sorry, it won't work. WWI changed Europe forever, because of the mass slaughter on all sides of ordinary people as sanctioned and promoted by their "betters", and all for reasons which in retrospect seem fairly insignificant. (In contrast to WWII, at the time and much more so in retrospective.)

Democracy, anyone?

By the way, by what capacity to read people's minds does Keith from H. claim to know why anyone fought in WWI or any war?

Colm JPK

Subject: RE: The Foggy Dew (NOT Bachelor)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 Sep 08 - 04:37 AM

You don't have to read their minds.
You can read their letters.
Several collections have been published.
I have some from my father's cousin, who died in France.
What would you have done about the invasion of Belgium , France etc.?

Subject: RE: The Foggy Dew (NOT Bachelor)
From: GUEST,Murphy
Date: 22 Sep 08 - 09:51 AM

Here is a link to Islandbridge Memorial park in Dublin which commemerates those who died in WW1. For several years this was viewed as a "British" memorial and was largely ignored and certainly not publicised. Attitudes are changing and people are coming to the realisation that these men gave their lives for FREEDOM just as those who foungt in the 1916 rebellion did.

Subject: RE: The Foggy Dew (NOT Bachelor)
From: GUEST,Murphy
Date: 22 Sep 08 - 10:25 AM

My previous entry may give the impression that I am at one with Keith from Hererford. He undoutedly has extensive knowledge but his statement on 8.9.08 that he could not detect any anti british feeling shows a lack of understanding of Irish history.

Subject: RE: The Foggy Dew (NOT Bachelor)
From: GUEST,Sarita in County Antrim
Date: 07 Feb 09 - 08:32 AM

Actually, I think it all has alot to do with the first generation of National School trained
children reaching adulthood in the early 1900s across Ireland.

An empowering world of literacy open to so many who had previously had local political information from face to face encounters. Such encounters carry wit them the demands made by the complexities of human encounters and less liable to lead to the kind of rage found on these web pages.

Nothing like reading the propaganda in a written (therefore authoritative) source like the newspapers aka Broadsheets of old in new form, to wind folk up against each other.

LIke this web page really.

We are all still slaves to disembodied misunderstandings and misinformation.

Keith is right actually. The Belfast newspapers of the period leading up to the Home Rule Bill were alot more cosmopolitan and open minded than the shocking and sudden sectarianism found in them afterwards. Go the the Belfast Central Library and have a looksee. This is reinforced by people I have talked to here about their G'parents
experiences too.

Bye the bye, the same are of one opinion across all 'sides' that the sectarianism rampant hereabouts in the young now is far worse than anything they can ever remember even in the worst times of the 'Troubles'. Hey ho.

All the Best.

Subject: RE: The Foggy Dew (NOT Bachelor)
From: GUEST,Mark
Date: 07 Nov 09 - 10:09 AM

Sedd el Bahr (in modern Turkish, Seddülbahir, meaning "Key of the Sea") is a village at Cape Helles on the Gallipoli peninsula in Turkey. The village lies east of the cape, on the shore of the Dardanelles. It was the site of V Beach, the landing zone for two Irish battalions, including one from the SS River Clyde, on 25 April 1915 during the Battle of Gallipoli.

Subject: RE: Help: The Foggy Dew: Sud el Bar? Huns?
From: GUEST,diarmuid oraghallaigh
Date: 05 Jan 10 - 01:22 AM

cathal brugha =(charles burgess) pronounced cahal bruha, city fair means a beautiful city, the hun version is added much later, mostly by northern glasgow celtic fans.