Another Sectarian Killing

Subject: Another Sectarian Killing
From: Fiolar
Date: 04 Jul 01 - 09:03 AM

So, another young life has been cut short in the killing fields of the North. A 19 year old Catholic was gunned down on a roundabout in Antrim as he was waiting for a lift to work. The killers were on a motor bike and the pillion passenger was the gunman. How brave. It warranted all of 6 lines on the teletext on my television. I wonder if the killers are the scum that Ronnie Flanagan mentioned recently. Is it any wonder that the IRA are reticent about the decomissioning of their weapons. Then you get individuals like Donaldson talking bollocks aboout IRA disarmament. The decomissioning body has visited the dumps several times and reported back, BUT, so far I have heard no reports on visits to the loyalist arms caches and little if any calls for the destruction of their guns. Will the Orange marches stop as a mark of respect for the murdered teenager? Will they hell.

Subject: RE: Another Sectarian Killing
From: Jimmy C
Date: 04 Jul 01 - 09:18 AM

This item was gleaned from todays Irish News.

THE peace process has not been undermined by republican paramilitaries refusal to decommission weapons, Sinn Fein claimed last night.

Newry and Armagh assembly member Conor Murphy, responding to comments made by the constituency's MP Seamus Mallon, claimed that the deputy first minister hinted at the exclusion of Sinn Fein from the executive over the weapons issue.

Mr Murphy said that while IRA weapons remained in bunkers, which were open to inspection by international observers, loyalists had used pipe bombs and blast bombs on 95 separate attacks against Catholics.

Subject: RE: Another Sectarian Killing
From: Jim Cheydi
Date: 04 Jul 01 - 10:39 AM

...of course it's always someone else's fault

Subject: RE: Another Sectarian Killing
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 04 Jul 01 - 10:43 AM

It won't be the last sectarian killing, sadly.

But the important thing is not to let it be used to justify reprisals and tit-for-tat. There's been too much of that in Ireland - and look across to Israel and Palestine for an example of how it become institutionalised, and destroy any moves towards peace.

But it's true that people glibly talking about decommissioning as if it was easy need to appreciate this kind of thing, in the context of what has happened, and realize some of the obstacles to getting rid of the weapons.

If the IRA were to totally decomission tomorrow, you can guarantee that there would be an explosion of violence from both sides before very long. Sealed bunkers is as much as anyone can reasonably hope for at this time.

Subject: RE: Another Sectarian Killing
From: Big Mick
Date: 04 Jul 01 - 10:54 AM

I am so tired of the bullshit about the IRA weapons decomissioning. Start with hundreds of years of broken promises, violence against Catholics that outnumbers violence by Republicans, repeated attempts like this by Orangemen determined to destroy the peace process because they know it represents the end of a status quo which works in their favor, and a Press that refuses to recognize that it is the Republican side that is holding the cease fire in the face of repeated provocation. Add in that there was never an agreement to decommission at a specific time by the IRA.

I would like to know the victims name, what his plans for life were, and did he have family. To just say that a 19 year old was killed doesn't do it for me. It depersonlizes it and makes it easy to shake ones head and move on.

Mick

Subject: RE: Another Sectarian Killing
From: English Jon
Date: 04 Jul 01 - 11:05 AM

Bloody Military make me sick.

Anyone with a gun is a fuckwit, o.k.

Disgusted EJ

Subject: RE: Another Sectarian Killing
From: Pinetop Slim
Date: 04 Jul 01 - 11:12 AM

Is it certain that it was a religio-political killing? Drive-bys of the sort described are far too common in the US; the motive is often drugs or drug money, though it is sometimes over an insulting word or even, in one infamous case in Boston, a pair of sneakers.

Subject: RE: Another Sectarian Killing
From: ard mhacha
Date: 04 Jul 01 - 11:13 AM

English Jon, Couldn`t agree more, I was in Derry when 14 unarmed civilians were shot dead by the paras, Slan Ard Mhacha.

Subject: RE: Another Sectarian Killing
From: Aidan Crossey
Date: 04 Jul 01 - 11:17 AM

Thankfully the type of drive-by mooted by Pinetop Slim just doesn't happen in Northern Ireland. We've got more than enough problems, matey, with the other sort of drive-by shootings!

You probably meant to be helpful, but when people from Northern Ireland talk about a sectarian killing then, sadly, they usually know what they're talking about!

Subject: RE: Another Sectarian Killing
From: Jim Cheydi
Date: 04 Jul 01 - 11:19 AM

I was in Dublin when the Irish sang songs about Warrington and then when bleating to anyone who would listen when the English got upset.

Of course it's always someone else's fault....

Subject: RE: Another Sectarian Killing
From: GeorgeH
Date: 04 Jul 01 - 11:21 AM

It's a shame that this thread has taken a degree of sectarian twist . .

My first attempt to post this thought got lost in the wilds of the Internet . .

Fiolar, the end of your post resonated, when you used the word "respect". If people only respected one another, as fellow human being, then they couldn't do this sort of thing. Neither would the whole sad history which leads up to yet another grim statistic be possible. Yet that respect is supposed to be central to those religious beliefs which both sides profess to hold so dear.

OK, I've been involved in many a heated debate on Sectarian issues, on Mudcat and elsewhere. No doubt I'll continue to be so involved. But for this moment it's necessary to stand aside from those disagreements to agree on the futility and utter injustice of all the pain this, and every similar act, causes.

George

Subject: RE: Another Sectarian Killing
From: Big Mick
Date: 04 Jul 01 - 11:22 AM

Jim Cheydi, what is your point? What do you mean by "it's always someone elses fault"? I need to know what you are driving at.

Mick

Subject: RE: Another Sectarian Killing
From: Wolfgang
Date: 04 Jul 01 - 11:23 AM

from the ticker:

A dissident loyalist group - the Red Hand Defenders - has said it killed 19-year-old Catholic Ciarán Cummings in Antrim this morning.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: Another Sectarian Killing
From: Jimmy C
Date: 04 Jul 01 - 11:25 AM

Big Mick. Here is the report taken from last nights Belfast Telegraph. It does not give his name, looks like he was just a kid on his way to work. If they want the IRA to give up their weapons they are going about it in the wrong way.

Catholic shot at point blank range By Darwin Templeton and Claire Regan A CATHOLIC teenager was shot dead in Antrim today as he waited for a lift to work, further heightening tensions in the run-up to Drumcree.

The victim - thought to be just 19 - was gunned down at the Greystone roundabout in Antrim at around 7.15am.

First reports said that two killers were waiting as he approached and he tried to run off, but tripped.

One gunman then stood over him and opened fire, before the pair fled on a motorbike towards the M2.

Detectives were examining a motorcycle found close to the Rathbeg roundabout.

Local people said the dead man had been threatened by loyalists, and RUC Assistant Chief Constable, Alan McQuillan, could not rule out a sectarian motive for the murder.

He said that the attack was carefully planned and appeared to have been the work of paramilitaries.

"Some group was involved, but which one we are not sure," he said.

Security chiefs are braced for an attack by militant loyalists as tensions rise over the Drumcree ban.

The LVF is known to have a cell in Antrim and dissident groups such as the Orange Volunteers have also been active in the area.

It is understood that the dead man lived on the nearby Greystone estate and was on his way to work at a factory in Newtownabbey.

Detectives believe that his killers may have targeted their victim over a period of time, building up a picture of his movements.

Sinn Fein spokesperson, Martin McManus, said that the murder had sent shockwaves through the community.

"It's an absolute disgrace. This was a young man on his way to work, who had never done anyone any harm and he has had his life taken away," he said.

PUP spokesperson, Ken Wilkinson, who also knew the family, condemned the attack.

"I spoke to his father this morning and he was distraught," he said.

"Some people will be sitting this morning thinking they are heroes, but they are anything but," he said.

Alliance Assemblyman, David Ford, said: "At this sensitive time it would seem that some are intent on dragging us all back to the darkest days of the Seventies.

"This type of behaviour accomplishes nothing and I would ask the public to assist the police in any way they can to help catch those responsible."

Subject: RE: Another Sectarian Killing
From: Les from Hull
Date: 04 Jul 01 - 11:29 AM

Here's the article on BBBC news click here

Subject: RE: Another Sectarian Killing
From: ard mhacha
Date: 04 Jul 01 - 11:33 AM

Jim Cheydi, Those people that chided you over Warrington were as sick as a para, George I live in the midst of it and I dont like to see it being brought up here, So Sin e Thats it Slan Ard Mhacha.

Subject: RE: Another Sectarian Killing
From: Jim Cheydi
Date: 04 Jul 01 - 11:40 AM

What I was trying to say, Mick, was that 'both' sides in Ireland are forever blaming each other. The extremists have no desire for any kind of settlement. They all put forward proposals that they know full well will be rejected by the other side. I'm sure that the vast majority of people in the north (and everywhere else) just want the killing to end, but while this culture of constant blame exists, it just ain't going to happen.

JC

Subject: RE: Another Sectarian Killing
From: Big Mick
Date: 04 Jul 01 - 11:46 AM

OK, Jim, but the problem with the "both sides are to blame" argument is that while it is has some merit, it ignores the basic injustice that is at the root of the problem. It causes people to slip into the shrugged shoulders mode and then fall back on the perceptual reality that they live in as opposed to digging deep and finding solutions. In the meantime, another 19 year old kid is dead and another father is grieving.

Mick

Subject: RE: Another Sectarian Killing
From: RichM
Date: 04 Jul 01 - 12:10 PM

Solving the "problem" requires the people who live there, to give up their resentments, their hatreds, their dislikes, and their perceptions that the other side is *evil*.

Not easy to do. It's easier to hate than to love, to resent than to like, and harder to go further than halfway toward the other.

And the Irish are particularly good at stoking the coals of past injustice.

Will things change? Not in this generation. Maybe the next, if the young get sick enough of their elders' antics.

Rich McCarthy

Subject: RE: Another Sectarian Killing
From: Big Mick
Date: 04 Jul 01 - 12:17 PM

Rich, that is exactly what I mean by "fall back on the perceptual reality that they live in". But even your comment denies the basic tenet that is at the root of the entire conflict. This is the last vestige of British Colonialism, complicated by a group with a vested self interest in maintaining the status quo, further complicated and twisted by generational hatred towards the "papist" religion. Its roots are further tainted by economics that are changing.

Mick

Subject: RE: Another Sectarian Killing
From: GeorgeH
Date: 04 Jul 01 - 01:14 PM

Shit . .

Guys, we're back into the old argument . . Indeed, I nearly joined in . .

Please take it somewhere else, and leave those of us who wish to do so to remark, simply, of the tragedy of the loss of some mother's son.

Or are you incapable of recognising the humanity which joins us, regardless of the wedges which different perceptions drive between us.

George

Subject: RE: Another Sectarian Killing
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 04 Jul 01 - 01:24 PM

Ciarán - that's the name of my only son.

Big Mick was right - names bring it home to you.

The thing to remember is, whoever did this is hoping that there will be a reprisal killing, and a cycle of viiolence which will break the ceasefire being maintained by the paramilitaries on both sides. That's the way sectarian killings are used.

Subject: RE: Another Sectarian Killing
From: Big Mick
Date: 04 Jul 01 - 10:09 PM

George, I respect you, but you are wrong, IMHO. We are not going anywhere again. We are discussing someone's son and the senseless horseshit of all this. But to deny the root, denies the chance for resolution.

Respectfully,

Mick

Subject: RE: Another Sectarian Killing
From: Áine
Date: 04 Jul 01 - 10:40 PM

The first song below I wrote a fortnight ago. The second one I wrote during the war in Kosovo, and I direct that one to my fellow gaeilgeoirí -- is glas na cnoic i bhad uainn . . .

Le meas, Áine

Pray for Belfast Tonight

Pray for Belfast tonight, if you have a mind,
That the violence and hatred won't be paid in kind,
On both sides of the bridge, there are families in pain,
Pray for Belfast tonight, that it won't be same
In the streets lie the tatters of orange and green,
When covered in red, no difference is seen,
Muddy banners left soaking in grief and the loss,
Of a life that's been cut short, not deemed worth a toss.

Pray for Belfast tonight, if you have a heart,
Understanding of differences, if just for a start,
Let the words of the patriot dead fade away,
And new words of peace grow inside us to stay.

Pray for mothers, daughters, and babes in the womb,
That they won't have to visit a cold, lonely tomb,
Whether on left or right, the task lies ahead,
To extinguish the fires on which hatred is fed,
Erasing the lines that divide and diverge,
Listening to each other's funeral dirge,
The echoes of pipes or drums sound the same,
Over rivers of blood, 'cross mountains of shame.

Pray for Belfast tonight, if you have a heart,
Understanding of differences, if just for a start,
Let the words of the patriot dead fade away,
And new words of peace grow inside us to stay.

The fire and the water cannot come to terms,
When the lessons of death refused to be learned,
And the roads of the past are constantly tread,
O'er the cold and uncaring bones of the dead,
This is now, that was then, let's come out of the past,
And know that our only chance is fading fast,
For there's naught to be won, only peace to be found,
And to green and to orange, this is holy ground.

Pray for Belfast tonight, if you have a heart,
Understanding of differences, if just for a start,
Let the words of the patriot dead fade away,
And new words of peace grow inside us to stay.



Ar Bhóthar i gCósovó

Slán leat, slán agat a stór
Caithfidh mise le gabháil ar aghaidh
Tusa i do choladh go deo
Mise 'mo dheacaireacht 'óró

Slán leat, slán agat a chroí
Béarfaidh mise d'aghaidh mar bheo
Tusa i do leachtán chomh fuar
'S mé ar mo chosán chomh corrach

Ar bhóthairín i gCósovó
Chaill mé mo shaol
I sneachta fluacht is fuar
Críocnadh m'áthas ar fad

Slán leat, slán agat m'anamsa
Bíodh 'fhios agat go mbeidh do scéal
I mo lámh' 's mo bhéal go dtí
An domhan ar fad bí 'd'aithne

Slán leat, slán agat a leanbhán
Coladh sámh is suaimhneach a h-óbó
Ná bí buartha mar bheidh mé
Ar ais uair inteacht a h-óró

Subject: RE: Another Sectarian Killing
From: Seamus Kennedy
Date: 04 Jul 01 - 11:57 PM

Wonderful, Áine. Go raibh míle maith agat.

Seamus

Subject: RE: Another Sectarian Killing
From: paddymac
Date: 05 Jul 01 - 12:27 AM

Jimmy C - the 95 incidents you mention are just since the first of this year. They've gone on at a similar pace against the catholic and nationaist communities ever since the GFA on April 10, 1998. In all that time, and in view of all that deliberate incitement, the IRA has not responded in kind once. There have been about three incidents in Ireland and three or four in England by dissident republican groups, but the IRA has sat with a heavy hand on its members and honored every commitment it has made.

Subject: RE: Another Sectarian Killing
From: Jimmy C
Date: 05 Jul 01 - 09:04 AM

Paddymac, you are correct, Here is a partial listing of some of the more serious events.

ANTRIM has seen a number of deaths linked to loyalist paramilitaries in recent years.

June 1994: taxi-driver Gerald Brady, is shot by the UVF after picking up a bogus fare in Antrim. His body was found at the Sunnylands estate in Carrickfergus. UVF claims that Mr Brady was a republican were rubbished by the RUC and his family.

August 1994: The body of 48-year-old Protestant David Thompson – married with six children to a Catholic woman – is discovered on the Gallyhill Lane outside Antrim town. The UVF claim he was shot for passing information to the IRA. The claims were dismissed by the IRA and the victim's family.

May 1997: Catholic civil servant Sean Brown (61) is shot by the LVF and his body left beside his burning car in Randalstown, close to Antrim. He had been abducted earlier at Bellaghy, in Co Derry while locking the Wolfe Tone GAA club.

April 1998: Ciaran Heffron, a 22-year-old Catholic student was shot dead by the LVF after a night out with friends in the Co Antrim village of Crumlin. Mr Heffron was murdered just hours after a loyalist rally in nearby Antrim town.

January 2000: The battered body of 32-year-old Denver Smith is found in the Stiles Estate in Antrim in the early hours of new year's day. The married man who had three daughters was a member of the PUP and the killing was blamed on loyalist criminal elements in the town.

Deaths associated with violence surrounding Drumcree:

July 1996: Catholic taxi driver Michael McGoldrick is murdered during the standoff. The killing is blamed on renegade UVF members who later went on with loyalist leader Billy Wright to form the LVF.

July 1996: Dermot McShane: Killed in Derry by a British army personnel carrier in disturbances surrounding the protest.

April 1997: Catholic Robert Hamill (25) dies after a sectarian attack in Portadown.

July 1997: Catholic teenager Bernadette Martin (18) is shot dead by the LVF at Aghalee, Co Antrim.

April 1998: Catholic council worker Adrian Lamph (29) is gunned down by the LVF in Portadown.

July 1998: Brothers Richard (11), Mark (10) and nine-year-old Jason Quinn are killed in a loyalist arson attack on their home in Ballymoney.

October 1998: RUC officer Frankie O'Reilly dies after being injured by a loyalist blast bomb thrown by loyalists during Drumcree riots in Portadown.

March 1999: Solicitor Rosemary Nelson is killed in a loyalist car bomb outside her Lurgan home.

June 1999: Elizabeth O'Neill (59), a Protestant, dies after lifting a loyalist pipe bomb at the home she shared with her Catholic husband in the loyalist Corcrain estate in Portadown.

July 2001 : Ciaran Cummings shot a few nights ago while waiting for a lift to work.

Many unionists/loyalists feel that their way of life is fading away (notice I said loyalist and not protestants) and they fear the future in a a united country. The gains made by Sinn Fein in the recent eletions are adding to these fears. Of course their fears are totally unfounded, we just have to get them to believe this.
They also have to realize that these kind of happenings are not helping to take the gun out of politics. The Provo I.R.A. have to be commemded for taking their weapons out of circulation and open to international inspection.
I believe that the recent killing in Antrim will disgust many protestants as well as catholics and will definitely dilute any suport the perpetrators may have in the community.
Lets hope cooler heards prevail in the run up to Drumcree and the marching season.

Subject: RE: Another Sectarian Killing
From: GUEST,Maire
Date: 05 Jul 01 - 11:15 AM

There is too much cynicism about the "they will never change" in regards to the north.

Things have changed tremendously in the north since the first IRA ceasefire in 1994. The difference, to those on the ground in the north, is like night and day.

As someone said, the sectarian killings of civilians by loyalists is a tactic used, particularly during the run up to marching season, to provoke retaliatory violence from the republican community. One of the worst killings (in terms of potential for republiclan retaliation) was the murder of the three Quinn brothers in the run up to Drumcree a few years back. This does hold at least that potential for retaliation from republicans this year, because of the clearly orchestrated British loyalist (in terms of the paras) and unionist (in terms of the politicos) campaigns to see the GFA wrecked during this year's marching season.

I just read the most disgusting report in the Irish Times. obel prize winning First Minister David Trimble, claims the murder of the Antrim teenager was the work of republican drug lords.

It really is inconceivable not to see this, in conjunction with the shenanigans going on behind closed doors with the Parades Commission, the Northern Ireland office and the RUC, as being orchestrated pressure being brought to bear on Sinn Fein for their recent electoral victories.

On the political front, unionist politicians force the crisis with the Assembly. The SDLP, terrified of losing its majority status as the north's largest nationalist political party (there is that status quo thing again), is the first to call for Sinn Fein to be excluded from the Assembly, despite a considerable mandate from the voters, and considerable movement (as was pointed out by Vincent Browne in yesterday's Irish Times editorial) on decommissioning issues with the IRA since the signing of the GFA.

I'd say, there certainly is something orchestrated going on both in the north and the south to cripple Sinn Fein's gains with voters. Don't underestimate how angry the Irish government still is over the whole Nice fiasco, and Sinn Fein's participation in the NO campaign.

I'd say, this all coming to a head at once, to push the IRA over the brink, and retaliate by breaking the ceasefire. It is the only hope for the Irish and British government, as well as the pro-Agreement parties in the north, to destabilize and undermine Sinn Fein's stunning victories and growth in political party clout north and south.

Subject: RE: Another Sectarian Killing
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Jul 01 - 11:26 AM

I agree with Maire and Big Mick. And if the Parades Commission overturns the Garvaghy Road decision today or tomorrow, I fear the north will explode, because of this murder.

Hopefully, the republican community can remain as disciplined in the face of this crisis as they did with the Quinn boys. Its important for the community to make a concerted effort to eep the lads (those who get involved in the peace line provocations, vandalism, etcx) off the streets. The last thing that republicans need at this point is a week of rioting.

Subject: RE: Another Sectarian Killing
From: GeorgeH
Date: 05 Jul 01 - 11:34 AM

Mick, I respect your intention but not your fulfillment of it - essentially as soon as you start addressing the background of the event you move from the personal to the political. I'd like to take issue with what you write (because I find it simplistic, one-sided and unhelpful in the current situation, although I certainly accept that England/Britain has the greater "burden of fault" in that troubled island.

As I say, I think that discussion is inappropriate in this thread. So I'm out of this one, totally. I'll cross swords with you at another opportunity.

G.

Subject: RE: Another Sectarian Killing
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 05 Jul 01 - 11:48 AM

There is never justification for ending a young life. Particulary in this cowardly manner.

These people should be brought to justice. But with the forces of law and order being what they are I doubt if they will even be caught.

I guess we are as sure as we can be that this is a sectarian killing but let us not forget that first and foremost this young lad was a person. Catholic, protestant, loyalist, catholic, black, white, orange or green. It doesn't matter.

While people see these arbitrary divisions it will give them the excuse they need to take more lives.

Peace

Dave the Gnome

Subject: RE: Another Sectarian Killing
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 05 Jul 01 - 11:57 AM

"It is the only hope for the Irish and British government, as well as the pro-Agreement parties in the north, to destabilize and undermine Sinn Fein.."(GUEST,Maire)

Is here a typo there, seeing as Sinn Fein are a pro-agreement party?

Subject: RE: Another Sectarian Killing
From: InOBU
Date: 05 Jul 01 - 12:03 PM

Hi George, and others:
There has in deed been a change in the way we discuss these things in this forum, and I think we do so with much more respect than we did a few years ago, and that's good. George, you and I and Richard Brige and Fionn and a number of us were part of that.
However, unfortunately, as I wrote in my song, "Pig in the Middle" the personal and political are intertwined, when a human is killed by reason of her or his identity as a symbol, not a human. Ciaran was killed not because he was Ciaran, but as a nameless Catholic and a symbol of nationalist and civil rights desires by his community. He was killed, likely, in spite of his personal oppions as likely as by reason of his oppions.
Therefore we discuss the underlying situation with objectified Ciaran.
I'm sure we all join you in the great sadness, more than that, there isn't a human word for the emptyness of such constant loss, and thank you for that degree of care.
But we have to also cure the political situation which leads to Ciaran becomeing objectified, and killed. - The body is burried with the man and the symbols live on.
Keep talking and beg our governments for a peace and concilliation process... no demand it.
ALl the best
Larry

Subject: RE: Another Sectarian Killing
From: Big Mick
Date: 05 Jul 01 - 12:09 PM

George, there is no need to "cross swords" on the issue. One cannot discuss a killing without discussing the issues that spawned it and the politics that nurtured it. Having that discussion does not exclude us from doing so within the context of sadness at a human being dieing. In fact it is a natural by product of the discussion. With regard to my being "simplistic", let me tell you that there is a very good reason for that. I don't know your background in things political, or in the art and practice of war. But I can tell you that mine is extensive, and that I have more practical experience in its exercise and more knowledge of its consequences than the average person. And I have usually found that the person who tries to make the cause of conflict, as well as what is needed for resolution, a more complicated matter than it is usually has something to gain by making it so. Clearly there is a group of parties under one banner that have an interest in maintaining status quo. They have been enjoying gerrymandered benefits for a long time. And now there are parties to the solution who see, in the application of the agreement, a political loss for themselves. Hence they try to torpedo it.

I would, with all due respect and from afar, urge the nationalist community to stay the course and not break discipline. Even in the face of this horrid provocation. They are winning the battle with economic might through the purchase of properties (go through Keady sometime), with their Information technologies skills, and with their committment to employ long term strategies. An eye for an eye is a losing strategy at this time. But letting the thugs show the world what they are really about, and conversely letting the world see that the Nationalists are committed to peaceful resolution will win the day. And it will occur in the not to distant future.

In the meantime, let us mourn the death of young Ciarán Cummings, and the rest who have died as a result of senseless shite like this. God be good to him.

Mick

Subject: RE: Another Sectarian Killing
From: GUEST,Maire
Date: 05 Jul 01 - 12:13 PM

No typo--Sinn Fein is, of course, a pro-Agreement party. The only pro-Agreement party all the other pro-Agreement parties seem hell-bent on getting rid of, no matter what.

As to Larry's comments (and again, to add my support to Big Mick), we cannot remove the political contexts of political killings from the personal.

This was a political killing, not a random act of criminal violence. The party claiming responsiblity (Red Hand Defenders, who are a loose collection of the supposedly on ceasefire loyalist paras) said as much. They are also the same party which claimed responsiblity for the killing of Garvaghy Road Residents Coalition Solicitor Rosemary Nelson.

The lead article in today's Irish News states:

"A caller to the Irish News yesterday, claiming to represent the Red Hand Defenders said the loyalist dissidents had shot Mr Cummings in "retaliation" for the election of two Sinn Fein councillors in Antrim."

It may not be "peace and reconciliation PC" to talk about the political killings in context, one thing is for certain: if we can't talk about political killings in the context they occur, how are we ever to solve the problem of political killings?

Subject: RE: Another Sectarian Killing
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 05 Jul 01 - 12:13 PM

Fiolar, I feel for that boy's family and for the families of all of the victims of sectarian violence. But I am puzzled by this statement.

"Is it any wonder that the IRA are reticent about the decomissioning of their weapons."

Are you in any way implying that the IRA holding weapons in any way mitigates or encourages the prevention of such acts? Or are you saying that they should keep their weapons so that they can more efficiently exact revenge?

Revenge is wrong, terrorism is wrong. There are other, better ways.

Subject: RE: Another Sectarian Killing
From: Dave (the ancient mariner)
Date: 05 Jul 01 - 12:31 PM

You can change history with a bullet (by not firing it) Time both sides learned to think about and love their children more than they hate each other. Only then may peace return to Ireland. I will not, and rarely do, post to these threads. I am British, and a loyalist, and have been shot at by both sides. My daughters Godfather is a Republican from Antrim, and he is considered my family. Murderers simply do not understand that more killing will simply mean another generation of hatered, murder, and torture. Sensless violence in a land where I have known such joy and friendship. Grief for the family and the people who have to live with this daily. Yours, Aye. Dave

Subject: RE: Another Sectarian Killing
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Jul 01 - 12:48 PM

RobDale,

Your remarks about the situation of IRA weapons shows a lack of understanding of the realities in the north, on the ground.

Like Big Mick said, the republican community has shown tremendous restraint and discipline on the ground in the north. The ceasefire has held longer than any ceasefire in any contemporary war-torn region. The republican and nationalist message that they will remain vigilant in their commitment to peace and reconciliation *is* getting through to the world, most particularly in Ireland, where Sinn Fein has made astounding electoral gains in the years since the first IRA ceasefire.

Change not only is coming to the north, it is already here. No amount of loyalist violence, or political failure on the part of pro-Agreement parties will be able to turn back the tide on the movement for peace and justice in Ireland. Not even cynicism from British and Irish citizens, who would rather cluck tongues and wring hands, than do the dirty work of actually reconciling with the neighbors with whom they have been at war.

There was no war between neighbors in Ciaran Cummings community, despite what you, and some other cynics here seem to be alluding to. Here is what a neighbor of the Cummings' family had to say in this morning's Irish News:

"Protestant neighbour Joe Jameson, who has lived beside the Cummings family for years, stared blankly towards their home repeating: "It is bloody disgusting, bloody disgusting." His children had played with Ciaran as a young lad and he recalled summer days in the back garden playing in the paddling pool. "We can't take it. He was a great lad. Happy-go-lucky. Always a smile on his face. The family is devastated."

Mr Jameson added: "We heard the screams coming from the house this morning and knew something really terrible had happened. We watched them grow up and all the neighbours, Protestant or Catholic, have always got on."

Ciaran's home is in a mixed Protestant/Catholic estate, which is often where political killings, intimidation, and harrassment take place. There are some who just can't stand the thought of people living together in peace.

But thankfully, and especially because of the changes which have occurred in recent years, those numbers are rapidly dwindling. They won't hold sway for much longer.

Unfortunately for this family and this community, it just didn't come soon enough. And in that, we all share their grief.

Subject: RE: Another Sectarian Killing
From: Fiolar
Date: 05 Jul 01 - 12:57 PM

To Jimmy C - what a catalogue of horror and how many have been brought to "justice"? RobDale: The IRA have held off (except for some lunatics who see themselves "betrayed" by the peace process)from retaliating in spite of all that has been said and done by the so called defenders and "no-surrender" fanatics of the loyalist factions. Imagine for one moment a fraction of the violence listed above taking place in say six English counties. The newspapers and the other media would have nothing else but banner headlines and blaring news items. I can almost say with with some truth that only a tiny number of the incidents listed have made it into the English press. But what the hell! Ireland is just Ireland. There was hardly a mention of it in the recent general election. Just think say if one of the right wing parties decided to kill a few Liberal Democrats in revenge for getting elected as it has been alleged that the "Red Hand Defenders" did because some Sinn Fein councillors got elected. "Red Hand Defenders"!!!. These creatures will go on television in a few years time and tell how bravely they fought in defence of Ulster as Johnny Adair and Michael Stone have done just recently on the BBC TV programme "End Game Ireland."

Subject: RE: Another Sectarian Killing
From: GUEST,Maire
Date: 05 Jul 01 - 01:19 PM

Sorry,that 12.48 message was mine. First time, and all that blether. So how do you get the Irish accents on your screen?

Subject: RE: Another Sectarian Killing
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 05 Jul 01 - 01:27 PM

RobDale - the point about this kind of thing putting another barrier in the way of any decommissioning by the IRA is based in the history of the Troubles.

In 1969 the IRA had in effect got rid of its weapons, and when thing blew up with loyalist mobs burning communities out of their homes, they did so without facing armed resistance. The sequence was a break up of they IRA with the more militant faction re-arming and becoming the Provisional IRA.

If the IRA were to decomission in the middle of what is still a militarised and violent situation, it would probably destabilise everything. It would inevitably, given that history, be seen by many people as a betrayal. The fringe republicans organisations who had held on to the guns, and who oppose the agreement, would move in from the fringe to be seen as protectors against sectarian and mob violence.

If you are defusing a bomb, you have to move very carefully if you don't want it to explode.

Subject: RE: Another Sectarian Killing
From: Wolfgang
Date: 05 Jul 01 - 01:28 PM

How to get the accents on the screen?

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: Another Sectarian Killing
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 05 Jul 01 - 01:31 PM

If your keyboards like mine, you push the button marked Alt Gr at the same time as a vowel, and up it comes: áéíóú. No doubt there are equivalent tricks for other accents, but I've never learnt them yet.

Subject: RE: Another Sectarian Killing
From: GUEST,Maire
Date: 05 Jul 01 - 02:10 PM

Hmm...áéóíú

This is how I do it with my software normally. I'll send now to see how it looks to the rest of youse.

T'anks for the advice!

Subject: RE: Another Sectarian Killing
From: GUEST,RobDale
Date: 05 Jul 01 - 02:30 PM

McGrath Are the members of the IRA holding their weapons so that they can protect neighbourhoods from rioting mobs? I am really just asking why they want to keep their weapons if it is not for terrorism.

It seems from what you all have been saying, that people ARE trying to reject violent reactions and are trying not to give in to provocation. This approach may work, I pray that it does.

Subject: RE: Another Sectarian Killing
From: Grab
Date: 05 Jul 01 - 02:44 PM

JimmyC & Fiolar: A terrible list certainly. But citing one side's list of grievances is exactly the problem here - the unionists can equally produce their own list of victims since the GFA. Having a nice neat list of reasons to hate the other side is always convenient for maintaining that vendetta against the other side, whether the vendetta goes to shooting or whether it involves stonewalling political solutions suggested by each other.

There's mention of the "republican community" and "loyalist community" staying solid in the face of provocation. Don't forget that the ppl responsible for the violence are NOT the majority, they are the minority, and they're doing this as a desperate attempt to maintain their power through terror. These are the "no surrender" fanatics OF BOTH SIDES.

Graham.

Subject: RE: Another Sectarian Killing
From: GUEST,Maire
Date: 05 Jul 01 - 03:22 PM

Actually Graham, the British Unionist community CAN'T produce a similar list of victims to the one presented today in the Irish News, because there has not been republican terrorism of this level, targeting the Protestant community in the wake of the GFA.

That is precisely the point we keep trying to make here. The worst violence is now being perpetrated by British loyalist paramilitaries against the Catholic nationalist and republican communities. Very well documented, though you would never know it from media reports outside the north. This knowledge certainly isn't widespread on the British mainland. In the wake of the IRA ceasefires and the signing of the GFA, the overwhelming majority of the serious sectarian violence and killings have been done by British loyalist paramilitaries, supposedly on ceasefire, but operating under other names like Red Hand Defenders. In other words, exactly how we saw it happen yesterday in Co. Antrim. They really aren't even very concerned with trying to disguise that fact. They show up parading their colours in the Orange marches, at meetings at the Orange halls, at Drumcree, etc. That is why there is such fear in the republican community, and why Sinn Fein and the SDLP keep calling for movement on the policing issue. It is widely believed in the Irish nationalist and republican communities in the north that there is widespread collusion between British security forces, the RUC, and the British loyalist paramilitaries. When the perpetrators of the loyalist violence are never so much as arrested (which is the case in all the incidences we are talking about here), much less brought to justice, there isn't any confidence in the Irish nationalist and republican communities that people are safe, much less that justice will ever be meted out against the killers.

Hell, a loyalist mob outside a pub a few years back kicked and beat to death "one of their own" RUC officers for supposedly being in league with the pro-Agreement parties. Father of several kids, one of whom is disabled. The word sickening doesn't even begin to cover it.

There has been some limited Provo violence of course, both north and south. The Omagh bombing can't realistically be laid at the IRA's doorstep. All the British security forces agree, that bombing wasn't carried out by the Provos, but rather by the Real IRA, which splintered off from the Provos as an anti-Agreement para group. However, that act was resoundingly condemned by almost everyone in the republican community--something you rarely see in the unionist and loyalist communities.

Rather, you see responses like we did today, where David Trimble, highest ranking Unionist leader from the pro-Agreement camp, accuse the republican community of being guilty of Ciaran's killing. Not exactly parity of esteem for the suffering of the other community, now is it? And this from winner of the Nobel peace prize.

Subject: RE: Another Sectarian Killing
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 05 Jul 01 - 07:30 PM

I don't think the term "British loyalist paramilitaries" is too accurate. Britain hasn't ever included any part of Ireland, and though they've friends in the BNP I'd doubt if many of the people involved in the loyalist paramilitaries come from Britain.

As for Rob Dale's question "Are the members of the IRA holding their weapons so that they can protect neighbourhoods from rioting mobs" - I'd say that is in fact the bottom line. I'd put it more that the IRA doesn't want to lay itself open to the accusation of having given up its ability to protect neighbourhoods from attack.

And there's the symbolism of not having surrendered and being undefeated and that. And I'm sure there are a lot of other factors too, including holding together and holding in check people with different views, some of whom might not go along with a decision to press ahead with decomissioning until a lot of things have changed at any rate.

Subject: RE: Another Sectarian Killing
From: GUEST,Neil Comer
Date: 05 Jul 01 - 09:21 PM

Its been a long time since I wrote anything in this thread. I usually hope that it is about music, but, fair enough, other areas appear.

Another casualty has been added to the long line here in the 6 counties. Even though I depise the word, these Loyalist scum think that killing an innocent Catholic will somehow further their cause. Their cause is so flimsy that it makes the killing even more gross and senseless. To whom are they loyal? The Queen (I don't think so). Their hatred of Catholics is inbred and will be difficult to eradicate. I challenge anyone on this thread to contradict me because during the long, bloody history of this land, we have seen Loyalists terrorists and politicians trying to return us to Unionist Rule and Catholic subservience. It only takes one drugged up idiot with a cause on his mind and a politician behind him to ruin a family. One of the reasons for the murder given was that the murder was in revenge for the election of two Sinn Féin Council members in Antrim! Why should the Sinn Féin voters of Antrim not be represented. Obviously this scum don't know the meaning of Democracy and the Civil Rights they cry about every year when the want to parade.

I'll sign off before I become too bitter

Go dté sibh slán, a chairde gan chodladh ná ciall

Subject: RE: Another Sectarian Killing
From: Big Mick
Date: 06 Jul 01 - 12:20 AM

Courage, my friend. I know that it is hard, but remain strong. You will win, because the world is seeing where the problem is. Would that it could be done without more martyrs, but that is not the way of it. Nár lagaí Dia do lámh.

Mick