 sj |
||
|
||
BS: Cuba
|
|
|
Subject: Cuba From: Airto Date: 26 Jul 01 - 12:05 PM I've copied below the first few paragraphs of an article from the frommers.com website. The author is not impressed. Is anybody else? Editorial: A Critical Look at the Cuba Crackdown By Victoria Hallett, Editorial Assistant They tan on Cuba's silky beaches and sip mochitos. After long nights of jubilant dancing, they return to cozy casa particulares, where they rest up for another day of adventure on this island of bustling villages and extraordinary historical sights. But these are not mere tourists. According to the U.S. government, they're criminals. For four decades, the U.S. has heavily restricted American travel to Cuba. Cuban-Americans can make the trip once every year, but others may only go on a journalist visa or as part of a government-approved delegation. In recent years, more determined types have managed to bypass these regulations (not so legally) by routing their vacations via Canada or Mexico, thus joining the hundreds of thousands of Europeans and Canadians who enjoy Cuban vacations each year. But there's trouble in paradise--namely, the Bush administration. Friday, July 13, Bush ordered the Treasury Department to crack down on these lawbreakers, requesting additional funds for the Office of Foreign Assets Control (OFAC) to improve its ability to monitor Cuban travel. "It is important that we uphold and enforce the law to the fullest extent with a view toward preventing unlicensed and excessive travel, enforcing limits on remittances and ensuring humanitarian and cultural exchanges actually reach pro-democracy activists in Cuba," Bush wrote in a statement. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Cuba From: LoopySanchez Date: 26 Jul 01 - 12:12 PM I'm sure none of the gov't officials endorsing this crackdown have a single Cuban cigar in their humidor, right? |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Cuba From: Kim C Date: 26 Jul 01 - 12:17 PM Maybe I am naive but I think the whole Cuba thing is stupid. It isn't like they are a threat to the US anymore, if they ever were to begin with. They no longer have the Soviets to back them up. I think there are more important things to worry about than who wants to go to Cuba. Anyway it ain't hard to get there if you go to Jamaica first. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Cuba From: Jack the Sailor Date: 26 Jul 01 - 12:42 PM Uncle Sam does seem to hold a grudge. What is the US government waiting for to patch the relationship with Cuba? What are they waiting for Castro to do? Give Havana back to the Mob? Apologise? Die? |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Cuba From: Whistle Stop Date: 26 Jul 01 - 01:06 PM I'm with you on this -- our (US) policy towards Cuba is ridiculous. It hurts Cubans, it hurts us, and it doesn't help anyone. What's the point? |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Cuba From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 26 Jul 01 - 01:15 PM But there's no problem with having the Olympics in China? Or with any Americans going and having their holidays there.
Still, I suppose Bush may feel a certain affinity with the Chinese government. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Cuba From: catspaw49 Date: 26 Jul 01 - 01:29 PM I got thrashed for saying this in another thread, but I'm a glutton for punishment. Let me preface this with the fact that I too think the entire attitude toward Cuba is complete crap and Bush has made it worse, not better. So........ As I said before, there is not going to be any major change in the US "Cuban Policy" or attitude until a few generations die off. There is still too much hostility and the government does hold a grudge.....as well do many Americans and displaced Cubans. With any luck, in another 25 years we might see the change, but it ain't gonna' happen now folks! Thrash away........ Spaw |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Cuba From: Whistle Stop Date: 26 Jul 01 - 01:31 PM We should normalize relations with Cuba, and name Ry Cooder as our Ambassador. They can send Ibrahim Ferrer as their Ambassador to the US (until he retires, and Elian can take his place). |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Cuba From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 26 Jul 01 - 02:23 PM The moral is, never beat anyone bigger than yourself, or they'll never forgive you. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Cuba From: Airto Date: 26 Jul 01 - 02:34 PM Thanks for mentioning the other thread, Spaw, I've had a look. It seems nobody around this place has a good word to say for the sanctions. You say many Americans, not just the Government and displaced Cubans, hold a grudge against Cuba and that it will take 25 years for feelings to subside. Speaking as an outsider, I find it hard to understand how such a small island continues to draw such antagonism. It is so ironic that the "land of the free" imposes Iron Curtain-style travel restrictions on its people in the name of democratic values. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Cuba From: Whistle Stop Date: 26 Jul 01 - 02:40 PM I hope you're wrong, Spaw, but I suspect you may be right. The thing that amazes me about Cuba is that I really can't figure out what it is that they did to us that made us so upset. True, they took their country back from an oppressive elite that had been kept in power with the aid of American corporate dollars; true, they embraced a Marxist/Leninist philosophy, and got cozy with the USSR (once they knew the big powerful country to their north wasn't going to be nice to them, so they better make friends with somebody else); true, they foiled our inept attempt at a US-sponsored coup at the Bay of Pigs. Viewed rationally, all they did in all three of these examples was to stand up for themselves when we tried to bully them. So WE are upset at THEM? After last year's Elian fiasco, I really hoped that my country would wake up and start to take a more rational and constructive approach to our relations with Cuba. I really think that we could do more for the Cuban people, and for the people of the United States, by taking some positive steps to reduce tensions, with an eye to normalizing relations betwen our two countries. Our current approach is pointless, and is only being driven (still!) by a small Cuban expatriate community in Florida, and their ability to throw their weight behind whichever candidate or party agrees to keep the hostility going. It makes for a truly depressing situation, in my opinion. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Cuba From: Little Hawk Date: 26 Jul 01 - 02:43 PM True, McGrath. Vietnam is a case in point. If the USA ever collects its accumulated karma for Vietnam, Cuba, Chile, El Salvador, the Indians, and a host of other convenient recipients of the ongoing pursuit of Manifest Destiny and the Allmighty Buck, it will make Sodom and Gomorrah look like a picnic. One man's lawbreaker is another man's freedom fighter, and George Bush can go to hell as far as I'm concerned. He says what his handlers tell him to say. The people who opposed the Nazis were "lawbreakers" too...Germany had laws in place...remember? Just because a law is on the books does not mean it is a rightful law in a greater human sense. George Washington and all his men were lawbreakers too. Your greatest heroes were the most notorious lawbreakers of their day. And for those who hate Castro...well, you should consider what was there before him. Castro was a huge improvement over Batista, which is why he won his revolution, although he had far less money and far less firepower than Batista did. Castro admired the American revolutionaries of 1776, but he did not realize at first that only money counts in America now, and that the ideals of 1776 were buried long, long ago in the vaults of Fort Knox and the halls of the Pentagon. Castro fought for national sovereignty, land for the small farmers, universal medical care and education for the populace, and racial equality, and he achieved all of those. His opponents fought for the Mafia, the casinos, laundered money, and the maintenance of a gigantic island-sized whorehouse. Pick your sides, folks. - LH
|
|
Subject: RE: BS: Cuba From: Abby Sale Date: 26 Jul 01 - 02:51 PM Happy Cuba Revolution Day [NH] re: Castro's 1st attack on army= 7/26/1953 Courage was their only armor, As they fought at Fidel's side, with Che Guevara from "The Cuban Revolutionaries," MacColl & Seeger |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Cuba From: GUEST,jeffatwork Date: 26 Jul 01 - 02:52 PM Want to bet that Rush, Dubya, Dick, and Teddy DON'T smoke Cuban ceegars in private? there are perks for the rich that would be 'crimes' for the rest. The day Castro croaks, Macdonalds will be landing on the beach, closely followed by the Mob. That'll get rid of the Canadian tourists, and all will be back to normal. jeffatwork |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Cuba From: RichM Date: 26 Jul 01 - 02:52 PM Bravo, Little Hawk. Best summary of the situation, that I have seen. Rich |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Cuba From: Kim C Date: 26 Jul 01 - 03:09 PM I had a Cuban cigar once, and I might get thrashed here myself, but it wasn't really any better than my beloved Macanudos. Cigars from Honduras and the Dominican Republic are quite fine, thank you very much. I think the allure of the Cuban cigar lies mostly in the fact that they're contraband. (Had some Dutch ones too, that were pretty good.) We made nice with Japan, we made nice with China, we made nice with Germany. Now we oughta make nice with Cuba. It's just so ridiculous not to. Castro ain't gonna be around forever anyhow. There's an eccentric retired judge here in Nashville who goes to Cuba all the time (or used to, anyway). He went by way of Jamaica. He said the people in Cuba are really nice, and Really Happy for Americans to come there because we Spend Money. He also said parts of Cuba are quite beautiful. I think it's quite past time to let bygones be bygones. Whatever happened to the kinder, gentler government? |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Cuba From: rea Date: 26 Jul 01 - 03:51 PM the funny thing is that until i was a senior in high school (okay,so that was two years ago) i had no idea that cuba had such a bustling tourist trade. the entire reason we don't lift sanctions is it makes the boys in dc feel big. of course, if you wanted to be sly about it, you could argue that lifting the sanctions would allow all sorts of american tourists in and then the cubans would see how "wonderful" our democratic (mostly) government is. (insert sarcasm) because, or course, no one would want to live in a country where over 90% of the adult population is literate. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Cuba From: Little Hawk Date: 26 Jul 01 - 03:55 PM The interesting thing about the sanctions, and Cuba's isolation, is that it may be the only thing that's kept the place relatively pure thus far, while keeping it starved for money at the same time. This is the height of irony. I have the feeling that when the sanctions finally fall, most of what is fine and unique about Cuba will soon fall as well. Sadly. - LH |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Cuba From: DougR Date: 26 Jul 01 - 04:01 PM My fellow Mudcatters should read their morning newspapers. I read in today's paper that a bill has passed the House of Representatives that will ease traveling to Cuba for American citizens. It could not have passed without bi-partisan support, particularly in the House, because the Republicans have the majority there. I have not heard what the Bill's chances are in the Senate, but I would think chances are good it will pass there too. I have not heard what the White House's opinion of the Bill is, but I expect we will be learning that soon. Even if Bush signs the Bill, I'm sure my fairminded Mudcat friends will still find something for which to criticize him. Maybe he used too many pens to sign the Bill? :>) DougR |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Cuba From: DougR Date: 26 Jul 01 - 04:03 PM So, LH? Should the U. S. keep the sanctions then? |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Cuba From: Kim C Date: 26 Jul 01 - 04:05 PM I can see it now. McDonald's and Walgreens and Starbucks and Borders in Cuba. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Cuba From: Little Hawk Date: 26 Jul 01 - 04:18 PM Hi, Doug... From a moral or ethical point of view, the US should not keep the sanctions. But...the moment the sanctions are gone, the power of the allmighty buck will pour over the border with all its inducements to the greed of the common man... And in short order the ordinary Cuban will no longer be able to get free medical care or free education...cos it won't be free any more...and his rent and hydro will go up 400%, and there will be people living in holes in the ground...like I saw in Mexico. That's why I say it's the height of irony. Sorry, but I do not have a convenient and handy solution for this situation, and if I did, no one would do anything about it anyway. Canada is presently just a branch plant of the USA. The Canada I knew as a boy is virtually dead and gone. Only the bare edifice remains. Behind it stand ranks of McDonald's and WalMarts. Doug, I despair at what has happened to my nation. A society that lives by the credo of the "bottom line" is a society that has lost its soul. You have to go somewhere else, before you really notice the difference, and sense the hollowness within. Soon there may be nowhere else left to go. - LH |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Cuba From: LoopySanchez Date: 26 Jul 01 - 04:39 PM No, it won't be free any more, but right now their "free" health care and education systems are worth every penny it costs them. It wouldn't be that tough to give assistance as Cuba moved towards Democracy. Am I to understand that some fellow Mudcatters see Communism, forced child labor, internment camps for AIDS patients, no freedom of press, third-world health care, and an education system that only succeeds in stripping freewill and endoctrinating citizens to be a combined LESSER evil than self reliance and the occasional Blockbuster Video Store littering the landscape? In a perfect world, I'll take neither, but if I have to choose one or the other, I think I'll make it a Blockbuster night, and pass on the Communism. And I seriously doubt that rent and power bills are going to bankrupt an island country that could make hundreds of billions a year in tourism and premium cigar sales alone. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Cuba From: Little Hawk Date: 26 Jul 01 - 04:55 PM Well, Loopy, have you been there? You ought to see for yourself. The health care is first-world quality, and the education is no more propagandistic than what I got in New York State in the 60's. Which is to say, that like the USA, they think they are right. "forced child labour"??? Say what? I saw plenty of that in Mexico, but not in Cuba. What I saw in Cuba was a greater measure of social equality than I have seen in most other places. Where do you get this stuff? - LH |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Cuba From: Gareth Date: 26 Jul 01 - 05:04 PM Leaving out the political raison re Cuba, wasn't there a satirical song about a US traveller to Cuba. Snatches I rember, possibly the chorus
"William Worthy's not american any more You are living in the free worlsBR> In the free world you must stay" Gareth |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Cuba From: Little Hawk Date: 26 Jul 01 - 05:05 PM You see, the main difference is that those hundreds of billions of dollars you mention would be going into a very few pockets (pockets of the already rich from America...call 'em carpetbaggers), while the ordinary Cubans would either lose most of what they already have...or they could sign up as security guards and bully-boys to protect the carpetbaggers....get to wear a nice blue uniform and carry a machinegun and rape the neighbours daughters....just like having Batista back again. Gotta love that democracy! Check it out in Guatemala and El Salvador and those other places that are "moving towards democracy"...oops, I mean "autocracy". Cuba is far from perfect. The dictatorships the USA has traditionally funded in Latin America are even farther from perfect. Much farther. Now, you wanna talk about communism? Check out China, your biggest trading partner. That's communism with a vengeance, combined with some really nasty capitalism as well...an interesting combination of vice and dictatorship. It's because Cuba is small that America pushes Cuba around, not because Cuba is evil. - LH |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Cuba From: Bob Pacquin Date: 26 Jul 01 - 06:27 PM Little Hawk, You should know better than to take anything anyone who calls themselve "Loopy" seriously--I think Loopy makes it all up--In another thread, he says that "Black males are 7% of the population and commit 40% of all the violent crime"--and then had the nerve to claim that it wasn't a racist statement-- |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Cuba From: DougR Date: 26 Jul 01 - 06:37 PM LH: I know you do not agree, but if the large corporations you fear do move into Cuba (McDonalds, Wal-Mart, etc.), I think the life of the average Cuban will improve. Why? Because of the infusion of capital, and the creation of jobs. If the average Cuban earns enough, he can pay for his own health insurance, or get coverage provided by the Wal-Marts, etc. True, I have not been to Cuba but I have been to the border towns of Mexico where poverty is rampant. In the United States anyone who only earns minimum wage lives a better life than folks do there. If not, why would so many Mexican citizens risk their lives to come to this country. They are not coming here to vacation, they are coming here to work! The majority of them are good people looking for a better way of life. Nobody else saw the news story I referred to in my first posting? DougR |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Cuba From: Peter K (Fionn) Date: 26 Jul 01 - 07:25 PM Third-world healthcare, Loopy? Cuba has the lowest infant-mortality rate in the world. So if that's third-world, how do you describe the healthcare in, say, Washington DC> Education is pretty good in Cuba too, and before you accuse it of indoctrinating, pause to consider why there is such a pathological loathing of Communism in America - far more pronounced than anything I've experienced anywhere else in the world. I've met many - many - Americans who think the McCarthy witchunts were a good idea, whereas in most parts of the world, and among my many American friends, they are seen as a cause for shame. George (Little Hawk), that line in your recent posts, about the possibility of an ironic outcome from easing the hostility, was VERY perceptive. I too feel deep unease about how things might pan out. People need to remember that Communism never got much of a chance, such was the scale of capitalist vested interest in seeing it fail. Certainly the Soviet experiment took place in the face of international hostility and was blighted by a monster (Stalin) of Hitler proportions. (No-one condemns capitalism because of Hitler, so it seems harsh to condemn Communism because of the monsters it bred.) By and large, the systems generally described as Communist - China, USSR, etc - were/are in reality merely totalitarian. Many in East Germany were happier with even the shabby apology for communism that they lived with for 40 years than they are with their new-found capitalism. Everyone had a job, no matter how mickey-mouse it was, and because all incomes were within a relatively narrow band, there was little envy, or pressure to keep up with the neighbours. In other words there was general acceptance of their lot, if not actual contentment. Now the eastern part of the re-unified Germany is ridden with extreme poverty, amidst which a handful of crooks, capitalists, gang-leaders etc swan around pushing their obscene wealth up people's noses. Go there now and you'll see precious little contentment. If the Cuban regime is communist, then I'd be the first to admit that that too is flawed. But they have posted some extraordinary achievements, particularly in health and education. Yet just as with the USSR in the 1920s and 1930s, they have had to cope with paranoid hostility from the wealthiest nation on earth. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Cuba From: Jack the Sailor Date: 26 Jul 01 - 08:01 PM DougR Said "LH: I know you do not agree, but if the large corporations you fear do move into Cuba (McDonalds, Wal-Mart, etc.), I think the life of the average Cuban will improve. Why? Because of the infusion of capital, and the creation of jobs. If the average Cuban earns enough, he can pay for his own health insurance, or get coverage provided by the Wal-Marts, etc." Doug, I have been living in the USA for three years now. My Company provides health insurance and my coverage was a lot better back in Canada. If Health care is the major issue, Cuba, STAY COMMUNIST!!! Cubans are way better off economically than their neighbours in Haiti and Dominica. The streets are much safer than Jamaica. Cuba and the US would both benefit with the lifting of the sanctions. But Cuba would be well served not to let the corporations take over from the communists. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Cuba From: DougR Date: 26 Jul 01 - 08:24 PM There are all kinds of health plans, Jack, and maybe your company does not provide one of the better ones. Difficult to compare one company's health plan and what it provides to a Universal Health Plan which I assume Canada provides its citizens. Before I retired, I worked for a non-profit professional theater company. Hardly a company that would be classified as a "fat cat" corporation. As an employee, I paid a reasonable monthly amount and my company paid the balance. My wife was hospitalized for twelve weeks with eight of them in intensive care. The hospital bill was over one million dollars. My company's health plan, an HMO, plus Medicare paid the whole amount. I think that's pretty good. I assume from what you write, the government of Canada would have picked up the whole cost. Right? I'm not that familiar with the plan in Canada. DougR |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Cuba From: Jack the Sailor Date: 26 Jul 01 - 09:53 PM Possibly a few bucks a day for a private room but any company plan would cover that. Thing is, in Canada everyone is covered. Old folks don't have to hock their homes to have an operation. I have to pay $200.00 deductable and 20% of medical fees. If I get seriously ill, I'll probably have to leave U.S.A. I don't have 20 % of $1,000,000. The HMO's and Drug Companies in this country are an awesome and scary force. Cuba is way better of with their own system than it would be if it tried to adopt USA's. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Cuba From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 26 Jul 01 - 09:58 PM "If the large corporations you fear do move into Cuba (McDonald's, Wal-Mart, etc.), I think the life of the average Cuban will improve."
Well it certainly hasn't worked out that way in large parts of Eastern Europe.
The fall of the "communist" regimes could have been a wonderful thing in all ways - it could have meant an escape from the corruption and the oppression. At the same time it could have meant that the pretence of a commitment to equality and social solidarity could have been replaced by a genuine commitment to things like that, reflected kin better lives for ordinary people.
That's what most people wanted. It's what the West all those years had been promising would happen if they only tore down the Iron Curtain, and opened up. I remember at the time when the wall was pulled down we had some young dissident musicians from East Germany came over and gave a concert in the Playhouse in Harlow. They were delirious with excitement and hope - and they raised the rafters leading everyone in singing The Internationale.
But it wasn't allowed to happen. For the people in power in the West, especially in the United States and in the United Kingdom the worst nightmare would have been to see some kind of "socialism with a human face" offered as a real option to the peoples of Middle and Eastern Europe. They wanted to make deals with the crooks who had been running things so that together they could cream off the loot, and stop any of that kind of nonsense.
And that's what lies ahead for Cuba, unless there is some kind of miracle. They'll keep what was bad, and lose what was good. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Cuba From: DougR Date: 26 Jul 01 - 11:37 PM So, McGrath, my friend, then you feel that the wall should not have come down? DougR |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Cuba From: Jack the Sailor Date: 27 Jul 01 - 12:04 AM Perhaps we should have gone in wth a "Marshall Plan" when it did. Lucky thing for Cuba, they are an island. The isolation can allow them to transition more slowly. I think if Washinton were to drop the sanctions they'd have a good chance of developing a market economy and slowly transitioning. There's no doubt that China is better off than Russia. It takes time for people to learn to live in a democracy. It take time to develop democratic institutions. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Cuba From: Rick Fielding Date: 27 Jul 01 - 01:13 AM I saw the article Doug....but then I'm an admitted News junkie. Jeffatwork, the only thing that will get rid of all the Canadian tourists from Cuba, is if Florida somehow expands it's land mass substantially to fit them all in. Doug. I would NEVER make a joke about Dubya using too many pens......I'm just glad he switched from CRAYONS! Moot point anyway. I think US relations with Cuber (sorry, I remember JFK) will rapidly improve, if for nothing else, because China's Olympic Games victory has broken the ice. Won't be that difficult to do now and not lose face. Rick |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Cuba From: DougR Date: 27 Jul 01 - 01:19 AM THAT'S funny, Rick! His mother weaned him from crayons, I believe, a few days before he moved to Washington. A Marshall Plan? One more drain on U. S. dollars which could be returned to the taxpayers! :>) DougR |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Cuba From: Whistle Stop Date: 27 Jul 01 - 08:35 AM Wow -- lots of issued being discussed here in one big jumbled mass. Whether communism is a viable system (however it has been applied), the merits of government-sponsored health care vs. private health plans, the social impacts of corporate institutions on formerly closed societies, the viability of a Marshall plan in eastern Europe, the quality of Cuban cigars... makes my head spin. Improved relations between the US and Cuba won't solve all the ills of either country, but I think they would be a step in the right direction. Our current situation has bi-partisan roots, and I'm happy to note that there appears to be a move towards a bi-partisan solution. I think Castro has done pretty well by Cuba, when you consider how things could have worked out. I think we could have done a better job of tempering his authoritarian leanings if we had engaged constructively with Cuba, instead of drawing battle lines and trying to isolate them economically, diplomatically and militarily. Whether or not something on the scale of the Marshall plan was or is warranted (either in Cuba or in eastern Europe), I think it's important to point out that our motivations in implementing the Marshall Plan were not completely altruistic; we did it because it served US interests to do so, by keeping western Europe within our own sphere of influence and preventing continuing wars prompted by scarce resources and failed infrastructures. The American taxpayers who footed such a substantial portion of the bill for the Marshall plan also realized substantial returns on their investment; we certainly weren't driven into poverty in the late 1940's and early 1950's by the Marshall Plan. It's also worth noting that all of the major powers in the world have been steadily moving towards hybrid economic systems with elements of both socialism and capitalism. This only makes sense: "pure" capitalism is the economic law of the jungle, which allows the strong to completely dominate the weak, and lets huge numbers of people starve and/or die from inadequate housing, medical care, etc.; "pure" socialism results in a listless society which cannot compete with more robust economic systems elsewhere in the world. The US has been steadily moving towards a hybrid economic system since the days of FDR (at least), while countries like China are now moving aggressively towards a similar hybrid from the other end of the political/economic spectrum. World leaders who do not recognize the need for economic systems that are both market-based and socially responsible will gradually lead their countries to ruin, unless and until they are overthrown from within or conquered from without. I don't smoke, so I'll defer to others on the quality of Cuban cigars. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Cuba From: Jack the Sailor Date: 27 Jul 01 - 10:11 AM Wow Whistle! Great post! You hit described my reasoning fo a "Marshall Plan" better than I could. Marshall, Truman, FDR et al were not stupid. They realized that investing in Europe and Japan would be a much better investment than rearming for the next great war. I believe a similar situation exists in the former Eastern Bloc. A starving, corrupt Russia is an accident waiting to happen. Right now they are in a race between chaos and democracy and the eventual winner is not yet apparant. Social programs have a place in a capitalist system. Especially in the US. FDR proved that they are a buffer against depression. Also, the only thing worse than allowing people to starve is trying to allow people with guns to starve. I like Cuban cigars... A lot! When I am back in Canada, I smoke one every now and then. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Cuba From: GUEST,John Gray / Australia Date: 27 Jul 01 - 10:45 AM I was in Guantanamo Bay in the harsher times of '65, boy - what a place. No doubt changed now. Okay , here's the best way to reverse the US gov't policy on travel to Cuba. Get Fidel to make an anouncement that every citizen of every country in the world is welcome to come to Cuba - except US citizens. I'm sure the US gov't would work very hard to ensure their citizens had the same equal rights. Wouldn't they ? JG / F.M.E. |
|
Subject: Lyr Add: BALLAD OF WILLIAM WORTHY (Phil Ochs) From: Greg F. Date: 27 Jul 01 - 11:06 AM This is the song yopu're thinking of:
BALLAD OF WILLIAM WORTHY
Well, it's of a bold reporter a story I will tell
CHORUS:
Five thousand dollars or a five year sentence may well be
CH.
So, come all you good travelers and fellow-travelers, too
Well, there really is no need to travel to these evil lands
CH.
Recorded on "All The News That's Fit to Sing"
|
|
Subject: RE: BS: Cuba From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 27 Jul 01 - 11:20 AM Did anything I say imply I didn't welcome the wall coming down? The same way I'd like the wall between the United States and Cuba - both ways.
What I was talking about was the way it rapidly became clear that the main objection that the people in power in Washington and London and elsewhere had to the Iron Curtain countries wasn't that they were repressive or dictatorial. It was that they weren't capitalist.
Instead of aid provided in such as way that it would help open up the lives of the people, and give them more freedom, everything was geared in a doctrinaire fashion to breaking up any kind of nationalised industries etc, in a gold rush style devil-take-the-hindmost frenzy, designed to allow the crooks and the apparatchiks to steal for their own personal use what belonged to everybody.
The very people who had cynically profitted out of the "communist" system were the same people who became millionaires. Them and the mafia. And the carpetbaggers.
And you'll note that anyone in Eastern Europe who opposed what was going on was described as a conservative...
|
|
Subject: RE: BS: Cuba From: Little Hawk Date: 27 Jul 01 - 11:46 AM Doug - Yes, the Canadian government would have paid the whole million dollar tab for your wife's medical care. Now ask yourself how any decent society can have a system that charges a sick person a million dollars in the first place! That is criminal. In ancient China the doctor earned his living by keeping his townspeople from getting sick in the first place. If the community stayed healthy, he earned the rewards. If people got sick, it was his sworn duty to heal them (if possible) and at NO CHARGE...not an opportunity to CASH IN!!! Public health should never be charged for, any more than you would charge your own child 5 bucks before consenting to stick a bandaid on his hurt knee! The utter evil of a system that charges sick people money to heal them simply confounds me. It will one day be seen the way we now see the Dark Ages or the Spanish Inquisition. It is equivalent to your own military refusing to defend your town, state, or country against a foreign invasion, unless every citizen forks over 50% of all the money in his bank account first, and puts in in the commanding general's hand! It's sick, it's corrupt, it's evil. As for the Berlin Wall...Yes, it should have come down...AND THEN the West should have kept its promises about what would supposedly happen afterward...the West did not keep its promises. As McGrath said: "it wasn't allowed to happen. For the people in power in the West, especially in the United States and in the United Kingdom the worst nightmare would have been to see some kind of "socialism with a human face" offered as a real option to the peoples of Middle and Eastern Europe. They wanted to make deals with the crooks who had been running things so that together they could cream off the loot, and stop any of that kind of nonsense." Same thing in Russia and most of the rest of the Eastern bloc. The crooks, mafia, and carpetbaggers have creamed off the loot. They were promised democracy...the BIG LIE...they were given corruption and social disaster. All those people were betrayed. What Gorbachev tried to do (socialism with a human face) was betrayed by the West, even as they praised him for so doing. That's precisely what will happen to Cuba, once the barriers come down. In Cuba, $300 US is an excellent annual salary, providing a nice life. Can you imagine what will happen when Mr. Mafioso or Mr. Esso or Mr. McDonalds walks in with millions and millions of dollars in his hand? He will hire the thugs, the bully boys, the most ruthless and vicious people he can find, those who have no conscience and no allegiance to any higher ideal...and he will take over. He will exploit the shit out of the place. The poor will huddle in shantytowns. Their daughters (if attractive enough) will become fodder for the porn industry and the bordello. There will be plenty of cops on the street, and they will be NEEDED. There will be violence and despair. The mansions will once again have millionaires living in them, with plenty of armed guards, and the nicer beaches will be closed off to the ordinary public which now has free access. Doug, I've told you before, you are living in Imperial Rome. I don't blame you for being a patriotic Roman, because that's what you are familiar with, but I don't believe you realize what Rome does out there in the hinterlands. Remember Hadrian's wall? The Britons on the north side of it were poorer (materially speaking) than the Romans, but at least they were free. Tens of thousands of them died to preserve that freedom. When the Romans left, no one mourned. - LH
|
|
Subject: RE: BS: Cuba From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 29 Jul 01 - 09:14 AM Here's a pretty good piece from today's Observer (England) about Castro and Cuba, with a lot of relevant link stories.Fidel's parting shot
One particularly interesting aspect is the parallel with Ireland in the Cuban Revolution. (Though the writer doesn't mention the fact that Che Guevara's father came from Tipperary.) |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Cuba From: GUEST Date: 29 Jul 01 - 09:20 AM Thanks I was going to point the observer article out myself Can anyone find any info on the US govt not being happy with some text books that tell a too true picture of their involvement in Indonesia. Just that is what I was looking for when I saw the observer/cuba piece |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Cuba From: Little Hawk Date: 29 Jul 01 - 01:06 PM Good article. It sums up the situation very accurately. - LH |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Cuba From: fox4zero Date: 29 Jul 01 - 01:48 PM U.S. foreign policy towards Cuba is consistent with its infantilism, xenophobia and stupidity. The Red Scare has fostered so much self-destruction in this country.... McCarthyism, witch hunts dating back to WWI, the Siberian Expeditionary force in 1919, "cold" wars with USSR, China and little Cuba: "hot" wars with little Grenada, Korea, Viet Nam. The people who are most "patriotic" (nationalistic really) are the ones who have the least confidence in our constitution and our ability to realistically evaluate the threat to democracy that Cuba represents. They are the most xenophobic and virulently anti-communist. They are the ones who restrict our own freedoms in an attempt to keep us "Pure" These conservatives, in winning Cold War by bankrupting the USSR, also pissed away billions of US dollars which could have been put to good use here in education, health care, art, national parks....any civilian expenditure no matter how frivolous would have been more productive than Cold War expenditures which concentated the expenditures to a relatively some segment of our population. Military spending is generall non-produtive to out society. If we had listened to real China experts like General "Vinegar" Joe Stillwell, we would have forgotten the red scare crap and had friendly relations with Mao's China. The Soviets have always lived in fear of their giant neighbor, and both countries still keep large numbers of troops at their borders. If we had a non-aggression pact with China, the USSR would never have been as aggressive with us as they were. They are scared shitless of China! In summary, ther way to beat poverty and subsequent revolution is via Hiltons, Sheratons, auto factories and tourism $$$. Larry |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Cuba From: Gareth Date: 29 Jul 01 - 04:11 PM Greg F - I am very much oblidged to you. Actually I must cngratulate the Powers in Washington and Langley in their sucess in keeping Fidel in power. Gareth |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Cuba From: Little Hawk Date: 29 Jul 01 - 07:22 PM And don't forget to mention Washington's spectacular success over the last 50 years in provoking Communist revolutions in a host of places by supporting dictatorships that drove desperate 3rd World people to look for help elsewhere...such as the USSR...since they could get no help from America, which was funding their oppressors and their death squads. That the Soviets also supported numerous dictatorships does not excuse Washington for doing so, and at the same time having the gall to call itself the leader of the "Free World". Free of what, is the question? They'd charge us for air and sunlight if they could figure out how to corner the market on them... - LH |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Cuba From: GUEST,Dewey Date: 30 Jul 01 - 07:09 AM Never been to Cuba either. I do know that it is an Authoritian Regime, without any legitimate voter privileges, religious freedom, freedom of association, political discourse, freedom of travel, freedom of the press based on several articles adopted straight from the Stalinist constitution. When Castro took over in 1959, he seized complete and absolute control over the newspapers and radio. He established the OSS Office of State Security and the CDR (Citizens In Defense of the Revolution) Citizens are daily handed propaganda, and ecouraged to report other dissident citizens to the ruling communist party if they feel their behavior may be at all "unpatriotic" to the goverment. O.S.S. officers tend daily to the task of monitoring street corners, looking for people who might cause trouble or discourse to the system, keeping the streets free of instigation. Children are sent away for months on end during their formative years to sugar plantations to work without pay, and to become youth members of the communist party. Parent are given "visitations" to see their own children, but cannot do so whenever they wish as this is not allowed accept only during allocated times, the plantation are often many miles from the homes of the parents. Children sometimes are forced to fight in wars for Castro in places like Africa, or sent on humanitarian medical projects abroad in other third world nations this too is something that is done without consent or reguard for the individuals or families that are involved. Families are basically subjects of the state and have no individual rights. Churches must apply for a state liscense to run a worship service. "Unlicensed" worship is subject to a FINE or IMPRISONMENT. Imprisonment can occur if the Religion is not approved of by the Communist party but still decides to operate anyway. Cuban has many documented political prisoners that amnesty international and other humanitarian organiztions have been trying to free especially inside jounralists who have chosen to print unflattering articles within the boundaries cuba concerning the government. I am truly amazed that so many people think that this is a model country and the the USA is the bad guy. Sure the health care is nice, but what about the GOVERNMENT OF CUBA. Many men in WW2 have fought and died to defeat such tyrannical governments now a couple of generations later we don't seem to even care about freedom. This is scary! As for China, We don't mess with them because they have resources and are bigger than us. Cuba does not. They are not a threat (anymore) this is true! but they are not exactly Angels either. Doesn't anyone remember the Cold War And the Missiles that were being placed there and targeted at American Cities. Doesn't anyone remember Castros threat the if he had the opportunity he would NUKE New York City! By please visit www.cubafreepress.org and you will hear from people who have not only been in Cuba but have lived under the authoritian system as well. You will find there a copy of the Cuban (stalinist) constitution. Read Castro's articles and you will see for yourself the scary parallels in it to the U.S.S.R.) Especially concerning the voting rules and press. By the way I have diabetes and pay for all my meidcations. Sure, they are free in cuba. But if I were there I would not be free! I would rather free than to have free stuff and live with what I have than have to put up with those thoughless tyrannical jerks controlling my life and future. I'm sorry about the mophia that ruled there previously, and today for the people living under the S.O.B. that rules the now. Looking forward to the McDonalds days over there AND GOD BLESS AMERICA!!!!! |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Cuba From: Murray MacLeod Date: 30 Jul 01 - 07:20 AM Guest Dewey has summed it up perfectly. I have spent the last year and a half working eight hours a day in the company of Cuban expatriates, and I can vouch for the truth of everything he says. Murray
|
|
Subject: RE: BS: Cuba From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 30 Jul 01 - 07:42 AM But could you put in the paragraph breaks when you write somethingh like that. It makes my eyes spin trying to read it like that, so I tend to skip it.
That's not a quibble - it's like when in a discussion if someone starts rattling off without a pause for breath, you switch off and turn your attention to other things.
Fidel Castro used to make these marathon speeches lasting for hours and hours. Maybe that felt a bit like that.
|
|
Subject: RE: BS: Cuba From: GUEST,Dewey Date: 30 Jul 01 - 08:48 AM Castro doesn't deserve the type of goverment he has. I see no reason for the U.S. to acknowledge it or support it EVER! To do so would be against everything we believe in as Americans, and would be an insult to the repressed and imprisoned Cuban people. Ronald Reagan was right in standing up against Communism in the 1980's, you can't compromise with tyranny EVER! Cuba isn't exactly socialist state like Sweden or Finland. It is a dictatorship of ideas and NOT a cooperative effort by a group of governed people. Plain and Simple. And Tyranny no matter the cause justifying it (health care benefits, workers rights, defeat of the mafia etc.) Is still tyranny. And governments that do this against their people are not only impractical governments, but are morally bankrupt as well. The U.S. must stand up for the liberty of Cuba especially now in the Post Cold War period when it finally has an oppportunity to bring about change to this imprisoned island, An island which is no longer a threat to the U.S. and our free society like it once was during the global domination expansionist era of the 1960's. With Cuban hands now tied militarily and financially, there is no reason to end the old policy we have worked so long and laboriously for. Castro is far from being our friend in the Post Cold War Era, if the Guns were his today as they were in the 1960's, could anyone doubt he would used them against Democracy and the U.S.A.? Thankfully we are no longer threatened by him, because historically he was defeated. However, his war of tyranny still remains: it hasn't reached America But it still effects millions of his own people each day. They are at war for their right to be human: to think their own thoughts, lead their own lives, and plan thier own futures. It is our obligation morally and strategically to help them win this war. Even if the war does not effect American's directly. Let's not compromise as Americans. We really are in the right, and Communism assuredly is in the wrong, and will always be so, and thus should (In the natural coarse of things) be forced to surrender! God Bless America! For at least under our system every person counts. And, also every person is respected for the individual talent he or she is! |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Cuba From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 30 Jul 01 - 09:41 AM To stick in a new paragraph, so making it more likely that your post will be read by othe people, GUEST Dewey, all you have to do is put a < followed by a >, with a P in between them. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Cuba From: RichM Date: 30 Jul 01 - 10:03 AM It might be useful, Guest Dewey, if you came down from your ideological pulpit long enough to actually research what Cuba was like before Castro. Batista and the American Mafia was NOT a better government.
|
|
Subject: RE: BS: Cuba From: Crazy Eddie Date: 30 Jul 01 - 10:04 AM Or, you can simply use two consecutive line-breaks. To make a line-break, use the less-than symbol,the letters "br" and then the greater-than symbol. Before you submit yout message, it looks like (br)but with < and > instead of ( and ).After the message is submitted, these disappear from the text, but act like a "carriage return" |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Cuba From: GUEST,Dewey Date: 30 Jul 01 - 10:20 AM No offense Little Hawk. But Actually Cuban Beaches Are CLOSED to the CUBAN PEOPLE not OPEN as you have stated (Please see the documentation of this at www.cubafreepress.org). But they are open and LIMITED to the TOURISTS ONLY!!!!! Since they have the MONEY. Actually, it is CASTRO who is exploiting the CAPITILIST system NOT the would be CAPITALISTIST that might replace him. It is ironic that cash starved Cuba has need of the CAPITALIST system for its survival. I do agree with you though that without the rule of law in Cuba Capitalism prabably would not be much better that the crap government they have now under Castro. Sorry I don't know how to make paragraphs. I try to respect other peoples opinions. And SINCERELY mean this. I think as human beings sometimes we get easily offended if someone might show a different bend on a story such as Cuba. I think this is the issue more than my paragraphs although I will work on them. I am completely computer illiterate and can't type or spell. All of us are more or less vain: we all like to be right most of the time. The only way to win and argue is to avoid it. No one is born knowing everything and I am not an academic. I do read alot of info. on the internet though, and I think my opinion on this one is based more on common sense, than my desire to impress fellow mudcatters with anything. I have terrible grammar and many many faults So please don't hate me for this. This is my last posting. Sorry it was so long and for my ramblings and speeches. I guess I am a bit like Fidel in this way! |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Cuba From: LoopySanchez Date: 30 Jul 01 - 10:24 AM Forgive me for backtracking a few days, but I just saw some posts from last week regarding my comments on Cuba. I suppose I should know better than to state anything that goes against the ideals that some in these threads hold dear. As for the forced child labor, the fact is that once a child reaches an age when he's competent to do the work, Castro puts them to work in sugar cane fields for several hours a day. As for their medical care being the best in the world, anyone who wants to can renounce their American citizenship can move to Cuba so they might take advantage of such a wonderful system. (Now of course, whenever Communists do the ranking of world health care systems, Cuba will always be somewhere near the top, because "universal health care" is most important factor in the ranking.) Funny thing is, most of the rafts I see on the news are headed north from Havana, not vice-versa. As for my commment about crime statistics (Black males making up 7% of the population and commititng 40% of the violent crime), I invite you to provide me with the real number, if mine is not credible. I think you'll find that a difficult task. Now, if the mere mention of this statistic is considered racist (Bob P?), I must assume that any post that presents anything casting a liberally-protected minority in a less-than-positive light shall be considered racist (a word the definition of which I dare say most liberals don't know). You'll notice that after noting the crime statistic in question, I went on to say that I don't place blame in any one area, and suggested several areas of reform which Republicans and Democrats in power could seek to implement to reduce the crime. The biggest factor, in fact, is economics. You'll note that it was, in fact, the Irish who tended to commit a disproportionate amount of crime near the turn of the last century, when it was they who were to a large degree an economically disadvantaged ethnic group. (Can I say that without being considered Anti-Irish?) Anyway, I apologize for challenging anyone to think or view an opinion other than their own. I neglected to realize that such opinions are invalid and unwelcome here, and that the facts supporting them are classified as lies by those who decide which opinions are valid. Have a nice day! |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Cuba From: GUEST,Dewey Date: 30 Jul 01 - 10:32 AM OK I lied. yes I know it wasn't better government. It was filled with prostition, gambling drugs and millionaire villas and the illiterate population. Fidel Turned those Villas into schools and educated the masses and for this I commend him. Please! Let's not get cocked about everything and start fights with each other I am sure you know much about the Cuban Revolution too. Amazing how people love to fight and build up their egos just to prove someone wrong. Sir or Madame I like you and I am sure you are smart too. So please don't try to fight me. But I do love this country despite the fact that we have proabably made a mess of South America and Exploited Capitalism. I listen to Radio Havana Cuba too, So I do understand the third world point of view. I do believe however, that the same people who endorse Castro could never stand living under such a tyrannical idiot if that were actually placed there. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Cuba From: Peter K (Fionn) Date: 30 Jul 01 - 11:13 AM With or without the paragraph breaks, much of Dewey's contribution is from an extremely narrow perspective. Instructive though, because it sums up the level of thinking (or lack of it) by some milions in America, and not a few here in the UK. It will be music to the ears of people like Murray McLeod, who seem content to base their understanding of Cuba on the most partisan opinions they are likely to find. I think most of those who object to America's Cuba policy would readily concede that Castro's regime has serious shortcomings. As an active member of Amnesty's urgent-action group I am only too aware of Cuba's poor human rights record. (No worse than America's though.) But it is surely a fact beyond argument that the character of Castro's regime has been heavily influenced by the massive obstructiveness of Cuba's closest neighbour. As that neighbour is the wealthiest and most powerful nation on earth, it would be absurd to pretend that its stance has had no effect. It is to Castro's credit that Cuba has survived at all in the face of such hostility. That it now has the lowest infant mortality rate in the world is, to me, a fantastic achievement. And when Dewey bangs on about the glories of the USA, I'm delighted he can afford his medicine. But what about kids put out of their homes in adolescence because their families can't afford to keep them, never mind buy them medicine? What did they do wrong? I'd rather be poor in Cuba than in the USA. Within my own lifetime, from Lumumba's murder onwards, the USA has acted as if it had a god-given right to fuck up the countries it didn't like, whether it was deposing Allende to install Pinochet, propping up an utter monster in Zaire, or invading Grenada. Castro's mistake was not to buckle under or get himself murdered by the CIA. No wonder they hate him. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Cuba From: Peter K (Fionn) Date: 30 Jul 01 - 11:18 AM Posted before seeing your last contributions, Dewey - you obviously have a broader view than came out in that first post. (Don't know about Murray though). Loopy, I can't speak for anyone else, but the health measure I've been using has been infant mortality. To me it is utterly utterly inexcusable that more kids per thousand die before age 5 in the wealthy USA than in impoverished Cuba (many more, in some specific states and cities). |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Cuba From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 30 Jul 01 - 11:58 AM Well, I read Dewey's last post, because, being relatively short, it didn't need the paragraph breaks. I haven't read the previous ones, for the reason I gave - but no matter, since I gather from the first sentence in the one I did read that he know thinks they included "lies". (I imagine he means exaggerations, or things that he thinks he could have put better.)
So Dewey thinks Castro is better than the previous regime, which was supported by the American government, and that Castro, although a tyrannical idiot, has some good things for which he should be commended. Also that the USA has messed up and exploited its Latin American neighbours. At the same time Dewey loves the United States, and prefers not to live in Cuba, and doesn't like the Cuban government much.
Fair enough. Doesn't seem too controversial. I'd have thought anyone thinking that way would be wholly opposed to the economic blockade of Cuba, which is what this thread has been about.
Whatever the failings of the regime headed by Castro may be, noone can doubt that the lives of the Cuban people have been made far worse by the blockade. It also seems clear that it has had the effect of blocking any movement towards greater liberalisation and relaxation of government controls.
But then making life harder for ordinary Cubans has surely been a central aim of the blockade. And of course above all, preventing any danger of a move towards "socialism with a human face," which would be a serious danger. (That explains why there is no problem in making fruiends with China.)
(But honestly, Dewey, breaking up the text into readable chunks is the easiest thing in the world,and it really is worth the effort.) | |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Cuba From: Airto Date: 30 Jul 01 - 01:01 PM I for one am glad to see some diversity of opinion in this thread. If I were a pragmatist in the CIA, concerned purely with US strategic interests, I would probably argue even from that narrow perspective that the US blockade has helped more than hindered Castro. By isolating his regime the blockade has actually insulated Cuba against the normal changes one might have expected through the sheer gravitational pull of a superior power up against a weaker neighbour. And it has also handed him a propaganda victory. To ban US citizens from visiting Cuba, in the name of liberty, doesn't look to good from the outside.
|
|
Subject: RE: BS: Cuba From: hesperis Date: 30 Jul 01 - 01:14 PM (To make a new paragraph, just make sure that you have a lot of space between each paragraph. Press the enter key a couple of times.) I think that the US should relax its blockades of Cuba. Cuba is a small country, and it is responsible for its own people. If the government is communist, it is the government's perogative. Just as if the US wants to be democratic, it has the right to be so within its own borders. I really wish that the US would clean up its own act, instead of pointing fingers at all the "atrocities" other countries do. Yes, the other countries have documented cases of human rights violations. So does the US. Take care of your own turf first, your own people's freedom and comfort, and then be worried about the rest of the world. When a country is so obsessed with fighting "evil" in another country that it is neglecting its own people, there is something drastically wrong. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Cuba From: LoopySanchez Date: 30 Jul 01 - 02:06 PM I will agree with you on the point of infant mortality. It is truly inexcusable for the U.S. to have a higher rate than Cuba. That can be largely attributed to the amount of drug addict mothers in America, I would think. I don't think Cuba has as much of a drug problem, but I'm not sure. Bush has proposed that federal money be alotted for prenatal care just as it could be provided to children and adults in need. Maybe this is a step towards improving infant mortality rates? I'll also agree that ending the blockade makes sense, if only so I can enjoy the best cigars in the world more than once in a lifetime :-) Ending the blockade would make the U.S. out to be the good guy, would start the move towards Cuba becoming a bigger part of the world economy (since it can no longer sell all it's sugar to Russia), and would probably help loosen the bounds of Communism over time. One thing I think that would be most beneficial would be to allow free travel to and from Cuba, and for Castro to allow Cubans to immigrate to the U.S., or at least apply if they desire. That is the one thing that still baffles me about the supposedly superior Communist system of Cuba: Everything is provided to everyone, yet people can't wait to leave to join the "enemy" for a chance to be free and survive on their own. And Castro has to make laws banning such actions. It's pretty amazing that the U.S. would probably have to put up fences keeping people out (I don't endorse that) rather than keeping them in. I hope my posts haven't seemed overly argumentative. I said what I had to to defend my positions. I certainly enjoy these spirited debates, and try to keep in mind the first two letters of the thread topic when writing and reading posts.... |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Cuba From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 30 Jul 01 - 02:38 PM By isolating his regime the blockade has actually insulated Cuba against the normal changes one might have expected through the sheer gravitational pull of a superior power up against a weaker neighbour. (Airto).
Which I strongly suspect has been the aim of the blockade. The economic blockade makes life harder for the Cubans, and it makes it harder for the Cuban government to relax the kind of restrictions that go with being a small country at war (cf Britain in 1940 on)(or, if you prefer, it makes it easier for the Cuban government to resist any pressures to relax the restrictions etc).
But the main target is outside Cuba. The blockade serves to warn other people from going down the Cuban road, by showing the terrible cost they will incur if they defy, anger and humiliate their big neighbour. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Cuba From: GUEST Date: 30 Jul 01 - 06:37 PM I don't know about Murray's opinions either as he was nice enough to give a quick response instead of a long speech like mine. I try not to judge anyones view until they have spoken long enough to gather information on what those view are. Yes Cuba is a model for infant mortality and the U.S. is not which IS VERY tragic and inexcuseable. I'll still take the USA any day, I too am poor and have had financial help with diabetes in the past year, and I wasn't just thrown out on the streets by the evil capitalists. America is still filled with great citizens and good people, unlike many countries. By the way Humility is a virtue and is how we grow as human beings, so let's practice it here as we chat with one another! |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Cuba From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 30 Jul 01 - 07:04 PM "I'll still take the USA any day"
And as an American I'd expect you to. But that's not what the argument is about, it's about whether the USA has the right to impose its wishes on a small neighbour.
I know that if I was a Cuban I'd take Cuba anyday, for one simple reason. Nothing can weigh in the balance against those infant mortality figure. Can anyone seriously think that they can - if it was their child?
If I had to trade the life of my children against greater prosperity and less red tape, I'd choose the life of my children. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Cuba From: GUEST,Dewey Date: 30 Jul 01 - 07:11 PM If you were a Cuban you'd have NO CHOICE but to take CUBA! |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Cuba From: kendall Date: 30 Jul 01 - 07:42 PM Well, I WAS in Havana in 1956. A whore house on every corner, and casinos up the ----. Men running the streets with Thompson sub machine guns! Great neighborhood to raise kids. They are far better off under Castro than what I saw with my own eyes. Why are we holding a grudge? you saw the aftermath of the Elian flap, how many south Florida voters voted for Gore? How many of them would vote for ANY candidate who wanted to ease tensions between us and Cuba? You folks who want to maintain the restrictions, why have you not mentioned the fact that all those Cuban motorists are driving valuable antique cars? (sarcasm intended) I heard that Clinton was more concerned about where that cigar CAME from than where it went. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Cuba From: Little Hawk Date: 30 Jul 01 - 08:01 PM Wow. Go away for a couple of days and... Okay, guys, I have no problem with you being patriotic American citizens. Perfectly understandable. I'm a patriotic Canadian. My government, which is democratic, gets along fine with Cuba. I met Cubans who want out, and Cubans who are deeply patriotic to Cuba and its present system. I did not meet ONE communist. Not one. I don't think they are very common down there. I met quite a few socialists. The church I visited while down there no doubt does require a state license, as all forms of organized activity do...such as your local cantina, store, or whatever. So? I think businesses and institutions in the capitalist world require some form of official documentation before they are allowed to set up shop, don't they? The church I visited was the Presbyterian church. It is privately funded, and does a lot of community services in Cardenas Cuba, such as meals on wheels to seniors, and a farm which grows food for the local community, and an ecological project. All done with privately raised funds. The Cuban government highly approves of the church's activities, but is not directly involved in them in any way. The people in that church (and Cubans in general) struck me as among the most sincerely and deeply religious people I have ever seen. It looks to me like churches are thriving in Cuba. Perhaps your info is out of date... At the time of the revolution, many of the churches were allied with the rich, and the rich supported Batista. The Castro government was definitely hostile to those churches, as they were hostile to it. No big surprise there. I have seen no evidence of an anti-religious stance by the Cuban government in a general sense, however, quite the contrary. I would honestly LOVE to live in Cuba, but do not think that I think it's perfect there! I do not. It's just got quite a few very good points, that's all, and every place is a compromise in one way or another. I do not believe the child labour thing. I met Cubans who were very anti-Castro, and full of criticisms of the government, and not one of them brought up such an issue. What they complained about was: lack of freedom of the press, lack of freedom to criticize government policy, various restrictions on travel outside Cuba (if you can afford to...which many cannot), and having a permanent president-for-life in the form of Castro, plus a ruling inner clique who are not elected. Elections themselves on the other hand...hell, they have 'em, folks, with multiple candidates on a civic, and state level, etc. I don't know the details, but I didn't hear any complaints about that whatsoever. Elections are a normal fact of life down there....but do not affect the aforementioned inner clique at the very top. Most of the rafts are headed north. Yep. That's where all the money is. Take a look at the Mexican border and you will see that all of Latin America is headed north. So? How does this condemn Cuba? Asians are also desperate to get into North America. Same deal. This is not a matter in which Cuba differs, except that Cuba treats its people way better than most of Latin America or Asia does. Still, the money is in the USA, so that's where the migrants are headed. Dewey - I appreciate your comments, but PLEASE hit the "enter" key a couple of times and break up the paragraph! It helps people to read what you have to say. Some else said something about self-reliance (they supposedly are taught not to have it in their schools). Gosh, people! I never have seen young folks with so much maturity, good sense, and self-reliance as I saw in Cuba. I am astounded you think they are not self-reliant. Truly astounded. But then, I have been there. Loopy - About your statistic regarding black men and violent crime...? I would not be a bit surprised if you are in fact correct in that statistic. I don't know if you are, but I wouldn't be surprised. There is indeed a form of thought around these days which does not permit the stating of a fact about a minority if it is a fact with any negative ramifications. That is deeply sad, and has nothing whatsoever to do with freeing minorities or anyone else. It's fascism masquerading as liberalism, also called political correctness. I believe it is also true that most violent crimes committed by black males are against other blacks in black neighborhoods. If anyone thinks I am racist for saying that, then man, they are lazy thinkers! I was a very strong supporter of Martin Luther King and his struggle for equal rights. Equal rights does not mean: we are now a people above criticism, no matter what we do to anyone ever, because we were once treated wrongfully by someone. It means EQUAL rights. Period. Which means if something is seriously wrong in black America (and it is), people should not be afraid to say so...for fear of being labelled "racist". The O.J. Simpson trial was a classic case of such an attitude gone right out of control. Ask Christopher Darden (hope I got his first name right...) about that! He was called every name in the book. including "racist" and "Uncle Tom", as well as more graphic terms. - LH |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Cuba From: Little Hawk Date: 30 Jul 01 - 08:28 PM Say, here's another great example: Most stock market fraud is committed by white guys in business suits! Is that a racist statement? Nope, it's just the truth, that's all. - LH |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Cuba From: Airto Date: 31 Jul 01 - 04:55 AM Sure the blockade has hurt the Cuban economy and made life more difficult for ordinary Cubans, McGrath. The point I was trying to make, though, was that if the objective of US policy is to ultimately draw Cuba into its sphere of influence, then the blockade has backfired. It has slowed rather than accelerate the process while handing its opponents a propaganda victory. I take your point about the intended deterrent to other countries in the region, but I can't see that this would outweigh, not even from a realpolitik perspective, the negative effects of the blockade. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Cuba From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 31 Jul 01 - 07:30 PM The negative effects of the blockade These being that it makes a lot of people despise the USA for bullying a samll neighbour?
I can't see that making the people in charge in Washington and in big business losing much sleep about that. And I can't see it weighing heavily against the tangible benefits for them of having a continent keep in line.
No empire ever worried too much about being popular, except maybe when it was crumbling.
Still, that's a quibble. Either way you see it, that blockade is wrong.
And here's a link to the Lonely Planet guide to Cuba.
|
|
Subject: RE: BS: Cuba From: Little Hawk Date: 01 Aug 01 - 08:10 PM Just met a guy who says he has a friend who got beaten up by government agents in Cuba for some reason...fraternizing with the wrong people or something? I don't know. I will have to find out more the next time we can talk, as there wasn't time to go into it much. So...you all know how pro-Cuban I am, but this bears looking into, and I will... See ya, - LH |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Cuba From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 01 Aug 01 - 09:17 PM I suppose there must be quite a lot Cuba still has in common with its big neighbour, for example, playing baseball. This sounds like another for example. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Cuba From: Murray MacLeod Date: 01 Aug 01 - 10:06 PM Kevin, are you suggesting that the FBI are in the habit of beating up people who "fraternise with the wrong people"? Murray |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Cuba From: Jack the Sailor Date: 01 Aug 01 - 11:41 PM Murray, the cops do beat people here at times. In Canada too sometimes. That is why they carry clubs. If you ask someone why the cops hit them they never say it was because they had it coming. They claim racism oppression etc. That is the way crooks are they blame others. The beating may be something sinister but it may be cops dealing with Cuban scum. There is an excellent article in the lates "economist" about the embargo. They condemn it. Not for moral reasons but because it is stupid and is counterproductive to the stated goals. The best thing the USA could possibly do to end communism and opression in Cuba is to allow US citizens to spend money there. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Cuba From: Little Hawk Date: 02 Aug 01 - 08:08 AM As far as ending oppression in Cuba goes, I believe the biggest step forward thus far occurred when Fidel kicked out Batista, back in 1959 I think it was.... Some further efforts in that regard are still needed, however, as they are in most other Latin American countries, and those are not Communist. Some further efforts against oppression are needed in Canada and the USA too. I know of cases of cops severely beating and even killing people in Canada, without cause or justification. It's rare, but it happens. There are bad cops, and the ranks tend to close and protect their own when misdeeds occur. Then there is the reverse, when cops do have entirely legitimate cause to use force, and the "victim" claims that it's nothing more than police brutality or racism or some other excuse. It happens everywhere. Communism, per se, is not the problem. Oppression is the problem. Either communism or capitalism or socialism can work rather well...in the absence of oppression and undue exploitation of people and nature. But all systems prefer to imagine that a competing system is wholly evil, while they themselves are under the blessings of all that is right and good. That's human egotism for you. "propaganda, all is phony" (Bob Dylan) - LH |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Cuba From: Amos Date: 02 Aug 01 - 09:10 AM I concur that we should relax a little. The restraints aimed at Cube, over the years, were primarily based on the fact that it was totalitarian. On a lighter vein, they have a problem which even the Everglades doesn't offer -- tire-popping crab dances: 4 April '01 Land Crabs Close Cuban Road As they do for a month or so each northern hemisphere spring, daily dawn and dusk migrations of land crabs are making an historic Cuban road impassable and keeping tire-repairers busy. Particularly hard hit is the 30km (20mi) stretch of coast road to the beach resort of Playa Giron, in the Bay of Pigs, where millions of crabs scuttle from inland swamps to the sea to mate. Millions make it but millions don't, becoming bizarre road-kill and leaving a thick, spikey, orange-pink mess on the road that not only smells bad but also punctures the tires of a high proportion of passing cars. One local who fixes flat tires claims to repair up to 100 a day during the crab-mating season. A |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Cuba From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 02 Aug 01 - 11:11 AM How did you achieve that remarkable effect Amos? Anyway, here it is in a more leigible format: I concur that we should relax a little. The restraints aimed at Cube, over the years, were primarily based on the fact that it was totalitarian.
On a lighter vein, they have a problem which even the Everglades doesn't offer -- tire-popping crab dances:
4 April '01 Land Crabs Close Cuban Road As they do for a month or so each northern hemisphere spring, daily dawn and dusk migrations of land crabs are making an historic Cuban road impassable and keeping tire-repairers busy.
Particularly hard hit is the 30km (20mi) stretch of coast road to the beach resort of Playa Giron, in the Bay of Pigs, where millions of crabs scuttle from inland swamps to the sea to mate. Millions make it but millions don't, becoming bizarre road-kill and leaving a thick, spikey, orange-pink mess on the road that not only smells bad but also punctures the tires of a high proportion of passing cars. One local who fixes flat tires claims to repair up to 100 a day during the crab-mating season. At the recent conference held at Playa Giron marking the 40th anniversary of the Bay of Pigs invasion, Cuban officials warned conference-goers that they'd have to leave by 4pm in order to miss the dusk migration and get back to Havana. Locals claim that if the 1500 CIA-trained invaders who tried to overthrow Fidel Castro in April 1961 had actually managed to get ashore, they wouldn't have got far without a lot of spare tires. A |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Cuba From: Airto Date: 02 Aug 01 - 12:11 PM I'd imagine Cuban tyres must be rather bald. Speaking of baldness, if you see what I mean, does Castro's beard qualify him as a folkie? |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Cuba From: Jack the Sailor Date: 02 Aug 01 - 12:38 PM Amos, That would make a good song challenge. Bay of Pigs gets Crabs!! |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Cuba From: Little Hawk Date: 02 Aug 01 - 04:52 PM Airto - Cuban tires are frequently bald, but not always... I saw an incredible variety of vehicles there. Everything from the 30's right up to the latest makes, with, of course, a lot of old cars. Some of the antique ones are in good shape, but most are all beat up inside and out. There are also plenty of horsedrawn carriages in the towns, which are cheap and fun to ride in. There are virtually no traffic lights, virtually no cops to be seen, and it all moves along at a lively pace at every speed from 5 mph to 60 mph. Each vehicle drives at its own typical speed, regardless of the others, so there's a lot of weaving in and out. This doesn't seem to present a problem to Cubans, because...when someone is about to make his move, he simply toots on the horn AND THE OTHER DRIVERS LET HIM IN!!!!!! I know this is hard for North Americans to believe... I saw virtually no road rage in Cuba, for the simple reason that they let the other guy in. Shocking isn't it? Makes you wonder. Not like Mexico, where there frequent fist fights (and worse) in intersections, due to not letting the other guy in. Nobody willingly lets the other guy in in Mexico. - LH |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Cuba From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 02 Aug 01 - 05:23 PM "When someone is about to make his move, he simply toots on the horn AND THE OTHER DRIVERS LET HIM IN!!!!!!" - that's how it worked on Irish roads away from the cities a few years ago anyway. You'd come up behind a lorry, and it'd pull off and drive on the shoulder of the road to let you pass. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Cuba From: Little Hawk Date: 02 Aug 01 - 05:47 PM Yeah. I frequently let drivers in here in Canada, and sometimes they are so astonished that they almost don't know what to do... I have observed that the average female driver is FAR more inclined to let other people in than the average male driver (again, in Canada). This makes me a nonconformist to my gender. Nothing new about that. I am rather in favour of the matriarchy taking over. I think a lot of things would improve. :-) Maggie Thatcher was the exception to that! - LH |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Cuba From: Gareth Date: 02 Aug 01 - 07:36 PM Oi ! Little Hawk. none of your colonial attacks on our Maggie - When she slowley swings from a lampost, let it be done by her domestic victims !!!! Which reminds me of the story of the visiting US of A tourist in Cuba. He decided to find out what Cubans really thought about Fidel. He questioned many but none would say a thing. Eventually he found one who indicated he would talk, but not there. The American followed this Cuban deep into the Cane field, miles from anywhere, a good search meant that there were no eavsdropper, then the Cuban whispered "Actually I admire the man". Gareth |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Cuba From: Little Hawk Date: 02 Aug 01 - 07:50 PM ROTFLMAO!!! What a great story! Should happen to every American tourist. I've read several books about the revolution, and if you were there it would have been hard not to admire him, unless you were among those on the top of the heap. Several of his own family repudiated him and went to Miami, because he nationalized the Castro plantation along with all the others. His family had been quite well off in the Batista days. He gave the land to the people who worked on it. - LH |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Cuba From: GUEST,toadfrog Date: 02 Aug 01 - 11:40 PM Gee, Cuba sure seems to be a litmus test. But note that there is nobody on this thread, no matter how conservative, who thinks our policy toward Cuba is particularly wise. But the answer to the question "why does Uncle Sam hold a grudge" is ridiculously simple. Uncle Sam holds a grudge because there is a very wealthy, influential, and activist Cuban-American community in Florida. Florida, as you may have noticed, influences the outcome of presidential elections. And all that money, deployed by activists, buys political influence far beyond the state boundary. As the Germans would say, it's Primat der Innenpolitik. And for that reason, our Cuba policy is not really going to change for a good long time. It is just that simple. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Cuba From: Little Hawk Date: 03 Aug 01 - 10:45 AM Yep. Money buys votes. Or rearranges them in a convenient fashion, through some sort of arcane procedure. A minority of the votes frequently elects a majority of one party in Canada, for instance...even when that one party holds a position that is opposed by a majority of the voting public, as has happened in Ontario and on the national level more than once now. - LH |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Cuba From: Murray MacLeod Date: 03 Aug 01 - 07:45 PM If the Cuban community in Miami were as powerful as Todfrog seems to think, Elian Gonzales would still be here. Think again. Murray |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Cuba From: GUEST,toadfrog Date: 04 Aug 01 - 01:03 AM If the Cuban community in Florida were not as powerful as I said, a guy named Al Gore would be the president of the United States. And we would have chucked the sillier aspects of the blockade a long time ago. What really grabs me about this debate is how nostalgic many people seem to be for the cold war. Why should anyone want to bring that back (except maybe Republicans nostalgic for the good old Reagan days)? What earthly reason is there to go on fighting "communism" (Or, for that matter, defending it)? Castro's Cuba would be a lousy place to live. It's a dictatorship. But I can think of even lousier places, like maybe Guatemala under the government we set up there, or Nicaragua under Somoza. At no time was I ever convinced that the two "alternatives" for humanity were the deeply flawed system we have in the United States, and the truly horrible system set up by Stalin. Or that to criticize one of these systems was to praise the other. I do not for one minute believe Cuban statistics about infant mortality, or literacy or anything else. But I will bet you anything that their infant mortality rate is lower than than in the United States, whose rate compares unfavorably to that of Jamaica. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Cuba From: uncle bill Date: 04 Aug 01 - 05:23 AM Thank you Dewey, you have been right on and objective. The fact is, no one is lining up at the docks or airports to move to Cuba (touristas not incl), but there sure are a lot of people risking their lives to get out. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Cuba From: GUEST,Dewey Date: 04 Aug 01 - 07:12 AM Cuban Constition: Article 3, Article 73, Article 103, Article 206, Article 208. for more info. visit www.cubafreepress.org. AS for Cuba: Feel free to belt your neighbor with a club if he doesn't agree with you, or doesn't wish to hang out with you! until he DOES! Don't forget to hand him over to FIDEL for Furthur Punishment when your through with him! We hold these truths to be self evident that ALL MEN ARE CREATED EQUAL, and endowed with certain inaliable RIGHTS: THE RIGHT TO LIFE, LIBERTY AND THE PURSUIT OF HAPPINESS! Show me where these things exist in Cuba?: Freedom of Association! Freedom of the Press! Freedom of Religion! The end justifies the means in Cuba, and people are sent away to prison not for any criminal wrongdoing, but merely for being different from others in thier opinions and associations. Give me America, if only half of my brothers and sisters, can talk freely and the other half cannot. To be "free" in Cuba means to agree with Castro, then you are relatively free. But what about the other half of that are not allow thier freedom of association, speech, religion etc. but still love thier counrty! Do they not have rights! They must face prison or leave Cuba behind, basically: a Divided Cuba. Cuba will someday be free in my lifetime because as Lincoln said:
"A Nation Divided Against Itself Cannot Stand" Lincoln. Not even with oppressive force of tyranny when the numbers grow too large. Communism requires effort to work, and it does not last Forever. Bullying your own people never works long term! But THIS nation of the PEOPLE, by the PEOPLE, and for the PEOPLE shall not vanish from the face of this earth. God Bless America! Dewey A Proud American who respects the opinions of other and promises not to beat you up even if he disagrees with you! |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Cuba From: GUEST,Dewey Date: 04 Aug 01 - 08:25 AM see article now entilted, "Castro's Constitutional Law and Changes Needed to Restore the Rule of Law"at www.cubafreepress.org This is the reason for the restricted travel. And remember travellers, everything that glitters is not gold. The Tourist based Cuba may look quite nice, but it is a far cry different from the real Cuba that people die to leave when political heat turns up. Of coarse we American's are going to see only the best of everything, Castro needs our money and must put on a good impression. If a young cuban girl can go to jail because I compassionately hand her a buck, Just image what could happen to me had I not any bucks to give Castro and was a native. Could I still stay (and for that matter afford) the big hotels that line the Havanna Beach Front? Would I still be able to sail away with a millionaire yauht owner FREELY without being chased down by the communists and returned to the mainland possibly to go to prison, or face a fine. I think our policy makesperfect sense, even the Cuban Adjustment act for that matter as more cuban citizens are wanting to leave cuba (and not just because of finances) and we have no choice but to provide them a home on the other end. We are nt encouraging this travel but actually discourage it! But with a fleeling people facing political persecution what can you do but take them in. They will leave on their own accord reguardless of what we do. They are not criminals for leaving, we are not criminals for going. The true criminals are the one's who rule the Island: namely Castro's Ilk, they have created the exile problem and the policy we have, and feel free to talk to a cuban expatriot if you doubt me! Dewey |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Cuba From: Little Hawk Date: 04 Aug 01 - 11:58 AM Dewey - As I have pointed out before, all of Latin America is trying to get into the United States. The fact that a majority of them try to do it across the Mexican border is because that is the most direct and practical route. Many have risked their lives and many have died in attempting that crossing. Many others have been arrested and turned back, since they do not have the benefit of being considered "refugees", though they are fleeing for the same reasons that Cubans do...and worse. If Mexico were an island, like Cuba, then the number of rafts you would see coming toward the United States would by far larger than the present flow from Cuba. While countries like Mexico, Guatemala, El Salvador, and Nicaragua have given their people oppression WITHOUT universal schooling, high literacy, low infant mortality, and free modern health care...Cuba has given them oppression WITH all of those benefits. Before Castro, Cuba had far worse oppression with NONE of those benefits...and that was with the support of the USA. Castro has improved the lot of most Cubans, although he did not improve the lot of the landowners, and the wealthier class of business people, and the rich who fled to Miami. How does this add up to a blanket condemnation of Castro and his government, when not seen in isolation by eyes that are only concerned with demonizing communists, regardless of other aspects of the situation? To compare daily life in Cuba to life in the USA is about as misleading as doing the same comparison between the USA and Guatemala. Cubans and Guatemalans have NEVER been in a position to enjoy the lifestyle of North Americans, nor the social freedoms of North Americans, and the USA has NEVER done anything that would assist them in reaching such a position. That this is so is due to historical and geographical factors, not to the struggle between communist and capitalist theory. The USA supports dictatorships that play ball with American industry and opposes dictatorships that do not. America does not export freedom to anyone. They keep it all for themselves. America exports arms and buys cheap labour wherever it can be found, and the cheapest labour is in a 3rd World dictatorship (which may or may not hold bogus elections from time to time, like in the Phillipines or Indonesia...but those change nothing for the poor, because the rich command the guns). - LH |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Cuba From: DougR Date: 04 Aug 01 - 08:51 PM I've been out of town for a couple of days so I don't know if anyone has posted this news or not, but a bill passed the U. S. House of Representatives last week that lifts the ban on travel to Cuba by U. S. citizens. From an editorial in the Arizona Republic, Wednesday, August 1, 2001: "Arizona's own Rep. Jeff Flake (a Republican)sponsored the measure, an amendment to a Treasury appropriations bill." Speculation is that the Senate will pass the bill and the President will sign it. I think the embargo will be the next thing to go. DougR |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Cuba From: Crazy Eddie Date: 05 Aug 01 - 12:59 AM Hawk, You hit the nail right on the head. Eddie |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Cuba From: DougR Date: 05 Aug 01 - 01:14 AM Well, Crazy Eddie, and my friend, LH: if the U.S. is such a terrible place, as LH believes, why are those folks breaking their asses (and saddly losing their lives in many cases) to get here? Why aren't they using the same energy to get to Cuba? DougR |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Cuba From: GUEST,Dewey Date: 05 Aug 01 - 06:14 AM O.K. Little Hawk You are right about the U.S.A. and its third world policies. Castro would not have to organize the Ibero-American summit (hope I spelled that right) with Venezula Mexico and other South American Nations if it weren't for the Multi-national Corporate Interests of the United States that are being protected, add on the free trade and you really have a recipe for disaster in the undeveloped world. You are right in this respect we are not Angels when it comes to exporting economic freedom, hence Castro's justification of the Regime. Castro by the way defends his regime in a very interesting book, "HIstory Will Absolve Me" Castro compared the world economy to a ship with two levels: the top containing the wealthy nations, the bottom containing the third world, and he also goes on to say. "the ship has hit an iceberg and is sinking". (actually I don't hate Castro completely he is a smart and interesting dictator, and economically no one can deny what he says is true) I hope nobody thinks that just because I love America (which I do!) that I think that is always in the right in everything it does. Contrare! (how every it spelled) The world is fast changing and the U.S.A. is going to have to change with it. The U.S. has been kicked off of the UN human rights commission this time around. I am aware that the rest of the world probably hates us for our lack of humanitarian concerns (aids, abm missile treaty abandonment, lack of respect for the sovereignty of other nations, 10 year sanctions in Iraq etc.) We have also supported South American Dictators and the CIA assasins at the School of the Americas. Policy-wise and historically our record is bad too and is a cotributing factor of the Castro Regime. Castro's government was ripe for the history of the time. No wonder he was a success. No wonder the Bay of Pigs failed. People supported his policies. BUT what you have in Cuba is a compromise: No freedom of thought, speech, association, etc. He has placed a band-aid on a very deep wound. Temporarily the wound heals, but it never is completely healed. Our human rights record isn't perfect either. But we do have laws though to protect the individual, not just the government. And we have due process, access to attorneys and other little goodies missing in the Castro government. As least are citizens can think for themselves and don't have to leave their country or go to prison when they expose the corruptions of THIER government. I understand people don't like me making these comparisons as economically and politically they seem like apples and oranges. It still puzzles me though that people are still willing to accept Castro's Human Rights Record as O.K. so long as social equality is maintained. That is an insult to those people down there, and it is even more insulting when people up here say they have no problem with cuba and would "love to live there" Just remember if you go there, you won't be saying very much, nor will you be coming back. Be sure to bring a lot of supplies, but leave your lawyer at home: he will be of no use to you, should you mess up! A one way ticket would be the cheapest and most logical way to go. Dewey! Who Still Loves America and is free to say what things about it he doesn't like!
|
|
Subject: RE: BS: Cuba From: GUEST,Dewey Date: 05 Aug 01 - 09:30 AM LH! Your last posting was the most interesing and informative I have heard yet on this subject, especially your profound comments on "Guns pointed at the poor" funded by the U.S. I guess I never thought about such exploitations by dictators. Seems logical that this would occur though. I still say the Communist Government is a worse system however because of its Articles and Communist Constitution. Cuba is the enemy because it is Communist. (Communism vs. Capitalism), not just because of its dictatorship style government. I will however freely admit I am a radical and in the minority in my opinion of the travel restrictions. I would love to visit Cuba too! But I would do so only if if the country some day became free (meaning no more Castro OR Batista Style Whore Houses) I suppose everyone thinks that this is the wish of a "Green American" God knows it is my hope and prayer that Cuba may some day be different than it currently is! Thanks! A more informed and humbled Dewey!
|
|
Subject: RE: BS: Cuba From: Shields Folk Date: 05 Aug 01 - 09:48 AM I know I am setting myself up to be knocked down but how free are poor Americans who can't afford suitable health care or legal representation. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Cuba From: Little Hawk Date: 05 Aug 01 - 10:02 AM Doug R - Did I say the USA is "a terrible place"? I don't think I did. I was recently on a trip down to New York and Pennsylvania, and found it really quite a nice place. I think I like Canada a tad better, but still the USA is in many respects a fine place to be. The reason Latin Americans are "busting their asses" to get to the USA (and Canada!) is: 1. there's a lot more money to be made in North America 2. there's more social and political freedom for the individual 3. there's a richer consumer lifestyle available This is obvious. Cuba is no exception to the rest of Latin America, in that its people would like to live in North America, where the opportunities are greater. I've covered all this ground before... It is not that the USA is a "terrible place", it is that its policies in other places outside its own borders have a terrible effect, in many cases. Remember "all men are created equal"? Somehow that didn't used to apply to Indians, did it? Or blacks? Or women? It doesn't seem to presently apply to 3rd World people or non-Americans either. That was my point, not that the USA is a terrible place. It's a pretty good place that could use improvements in its foreign policy. I am pleased to hear that the travel restrictions are being lifted. Dewey - I find your comments refreshingly reasonable, in that you're willing to consider both sides of an issue. - LH |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Cuba From: DougR Date: 05 Aug 01 - 03:05 PM But those inequalities you point out, LH, have or are being corrected in the U. S. It would not be correct, of course, were I to say that ALL inequalities have been erased. They haven't. But the Civil Rights Act of 1964, and legislation since then has gone a very long way toward leveling the playing field. Too some degree, there would be those who would argue that it has gone too far. For example, ask some Anglo pre-law students with excellent grades who were denied entry to the University of Michigan law school in order to attain a "balance" in attendees. Those folks are not discriminated against? I would venture to say that there is not a country on earth that does not have it's own racial or religious problems within it's own boundries. I haven't heard of anyone breaking their ass to get into Cuba, have any of you? And Dewey, my friend, you did an excellent job of telling us what you don't like about the United States, yet profess to love it. What do you like about the United Sates? DougR |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Cuba From: Little Hawk Date: 05 Aug 01 - 06:31 PM Doug - Yes. Che Guevara busted his ass to get into Cuba, and risked his life on Cuba's behalf repeatedly during the revolution. He came from Argentina. There have been others as well. Generally speaking, however, immigration is from poor countries to rich ones, not the other way around. Your point about the Anglo students is well taken. They are being discriminated against. I have repeatedly opposed such racially motivated quota systems as being unjust, and in themselves discriminatory...fascism masquerading under the banner of liberalism or political correctness...so we agree on that one. And yes, there has been much progress toward ending the old inequities in the USA. - LH
|
|
Subject: RE: BS: Cuba From: toadfrog Date: 05 Aug 01 - 07:50 PM Doug R. is talking reasonable stuff here, although I probably differ on the fine points. But from GUEST, I would like to have some kind of explanation why "communist" dictatorships are worse than other dictatorships. Can it be because "communists" purport to speak for poor people? Or because they do, after all, do more than other dictatorships to promote health and literacy among the population? What have you got against literacy? Or because they challenge preexisting privileges? Kerala has at times had a democratically elected "communist" government. So has the City of Rome, I think. Are they our "enemies" too? Hey GUEST, didn't we defeat communism by buying all those $500 toilet seats? Is China "communist" just because the ruling party, acting out of inertia, calls itself a "Communist Party"? To paraphrase that old song, I'd say they "preach communism, but they practice fascism, to preserve capitalism by the (party cadres)." What ya got against that, GUEST? |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Cuba From: GUEST,Dewey Date: 06 Aug 01 - 04:57 AM Well DougR, from my postings, I'm sure you will note that I love the U.S. Constitution, which has brought us the most stable and peaceful government in the history of the world. I love our free press, which keeps tabs on our government officials, I love our right to a lawyer I love the fact that we have the right to vote for who we want to represent us. I love the free entreprise system we have for its opportunities helping improve the lives of our fellow citizens through the competitive value of effort, while and the same time making us prosperous. In America unlike many countries I have no one else to blame but myself if I fail in life. I love the fact that my future is in my own hands, not in somebody elses. I love the Rugged Individualism and the diversity of of cultural and religious beliefs. Thanks Little Hawk! I am relatively young and wasn't even alive during the Cuban Revolution. While I am still not a fan of it, I do want to thank you for opening up my eyes to the broader issues of Latin America. Like many hear, I doubt most of us have ever spent much time researching all the beliefs we hold so dear. The politicians love this, becasue the entire world is ruled by deception. If Ronald Reagan for example can call his trained and Armed Gourillas, FREEDOM FIGHTERS, and get Americans to believe this, he has won a victory: who could be against anyone fighting for FREEDOM. Yes America is awesome! I know because I have lived here all my life and have had (by world standards) the most. social, religous and economic prosperity and freedom anybody could ever possibly enjoy. That is because of the Genius of our founding fathers, not necessarily because our policies or government officals. But WE have a government, of the PEOPLE, by the PEOPLE and FOR the PEOPLE. AND WE SHOULD ALL BE GRATEFUL AND THANK GOD THAT WE DO! That is why I love America! But this government will only remain sound, only if the people remain actively involved in their government. Digging deep into corruption, putting pressure on our congreesman etc. Even then, there is so much to do still. And much that cannot and probably will never be done to solve the worlds problems. By the way, I have learned it is important to remove your ego entirely when you communication with others. Open your mouth very little or your ignorance may show on the issue you hold near and dear. Shut your mouth long enough to learn something. So many times we THINK we have all the answers, But in reality we know very little. HUMILTY IS A VIRTUE AND IS HOW WE GROW AND LEARN AS HUMAN BEINGS if your wrong admit it! If you think your right, better make sure you are before you talk, as you are likely to embarrass yourself, should you get something wrong. No one knows everything so be sure to learn from others. Its the only way you will EVER learn anything. THANKS LH for improving my education on this difficult issue. I will keep my ears open in greater proportion than my mouth next time. Dewey
|
|
Subject: RE: BS: Cuba From: GUEST,Guest Dewey Date: 06 Aug 01 - 05:36 AM I must be honest Toad. I know very little about Guatamala and other nations Little Hawk mentioned so I probably had no business making that comparison. I think Communist Cuba is worse because of the O.S.S. and C.D.R. It is a tattle-tell big brother Orwellian "we know what's best for you" government, I couldn't stand living under this type of government, and it is merely my OPINION that is worse that the other South American dictatorships. After all there are no travel restrictions in these other nations, and though I may on ocassion distrust our government I do believe it has an obligation not to send its citizen into dangerous places around the globe, and the state department put Cuba on the head of this list. Politically speaking though guys... You've caught me with my pants down! After listening to LH a bit more, and with a little more research on South America, I may have to retract this statement. But I still hate Communism, and it amazes me that individuals who profess the joys of social justice would also embrace communism, There is not any justice in communism at all yet people seem to think it is a mere philosophical difference. NO DUE PROCESS! is this JUSTICE? Dewey who still is probably talking too much, but is also learning a little too! Thanks! |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Cuba From: Little Hawk Date: 06 Aug 01 - 12:29 PM The best way to find out about any place is to actually go there, but most of us are limited in funds and opportunities to do that. As regards communism, it takes many different forms. It isn't just one monolithic "ism". There is nothing intrinsic in communism which denies having civil rights, freedom, or a democratic political system. In practice, however, the originating communist system in Russia took power in a country which had always been ruled by autocrats (in the person of the Czar and the nobility). There had never been anything like real democracy in Russia. No sooner did that communist revolution succeed than it was attacked from outside by most of the major powers of the world at that time...through direct military intervention. Those attacks (around 1919 to 1920 approx.) failed to bring down the communists, but they did cause them to become very paranoid, militarist, and severely authoritarian in response. When Stalin, one of the most paranoid dictators in history, took over the Soviet Union the situation was greatly worsened. When the Nazis invaded Russia, the situation was worsened again. When the Cold War started, it became even more dangerous than before. These things have to be seen in their historical context. There is nothing intrinsically authoritarian about either socialism or communism...or for that matter capitalism...but they can all become authoritarian under certain forms of leadership and certain conditions. Those conditions were endemic in Russia, and in China. The socialism I have seen in Cuba is more benign than the fascism I have seen in Mexico. Far fewer police, far less poverty, less personal danger, and less fear. That's why I admire what Cuba has accomplished, and in the face of far greater obstacles than Mexico, which has not been embargoed. This does not mean that Cubans have the same freedoms as Canadians or Americans. They definitely do not. On the other hand, they struck me as more mature and in touch with life than most North Americans...perhaps because they have not grown up on music videos and TV and Nintendo, but on dealing with actual reality...like cooking, farming, building your own bicycle out of parts, fixing your own car up, and all the hands-on realities of life. All I can say is they impressed me a whole lot. And actually, so did the Mexicans, in their own way. They could teach North Americans quite a bit about self-reliance, and about community. The fact about North America is that we have all been spoiled rotten by an excessive lifestyle, but we don't know it, because we simply take it for granted. You've got to go to a poorer place, and actually live with the local people, before you notice the difference. - LH |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Cuba From: Airto Date: 07 Aug 01 - 07:30 AM Thanks very much, all of you, for a very worthwhile debate. DougR, will you keep us posted on how that Bill you mentioned gets on with the Senate and the President? |