BS: Cuba

Subject: RE: BS: Cuba
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 30 Jul 01 - 11:13 AM

With or without the paragraph breaks, much of Dewey's contribution is from an extremely narrow perspective. Instructive though, because it sums up the level of thinking (or lack of it) by some milions in America, and not a few here in the UK. It will be music to the ears of people like Murray McLeod, who seem content to base their understanding of Cuba on the most partisan opinions they are likely to find.

I think most of those who object to America's Cuba policy would readily concede that Castro's regime has serious shortcomings. As an active member of Amnesty's urgent-action group I am only too aware of Cuba's poor human rights record. (No worse than America's though.)

But it is surely a fact beyond argument that the character of Castro's regime has been heavily influenced by the massive obstructiveness of Cuba's closest neighbour. As that neighbour is the wealthiest and most powerful nation on earth, it would be absurd to pretend that its stance has had no effect.

It is to Castro's credit that Cuba has survived at all in the face of such hostility. That it now has the lowest infant mortality rate in the world is, to me, a fantastic achievement. And when Dewey bangs on about the glories of the USA, I'm delighted he can afford his medicine. But what about kids put out of their homes in adolescence because their families can't afford to keep them, never mind buy them medicine? What did they do wrong? I'd rather be poor in Cuba than in the USA.

Within my own lifetime, from Lumumba's murder onwards, the USA has acted as if it had a god-given right to fuck up the countries it didn't like, whether it was deposing Allende to install Pinochet, propping up an utter monster in Zaire, or invading Grenada.

Castro's mistake was not to buckle under or get himself murdered by the CIA. No wonder they hate him.

Subject: RE: BS: Cuba
From: GUEST,Dewey
Date: 30 Jul 01 - 10:32 AM

OK I lied. yes I know it wasn't better government. It was filled with prostition, gambling drugs and millionaire villas and the illiterate population. Fidel Turned those Villas into schools and educated the masses and for this I commend him. Please! Let's not get cocked about everything and start fights with each other I am sure you know much about the Cuban Revolution too. Amazing how people love to fight and build up their egos just to prove someone wrong. Sir or Madame I like you and I am sure you are smart too. So please don't try to fight me. But I do love this country despite the fact that we have proabably made a mess of South America and Exploited Capitalism. I listen to Radio Havana Cuba too, So I do understand the third world point of view. I do believe however, that the same people who endorse Castro could never stand living under such a tyrannical idiot if that were actually placed there.

Subject: RE: BS: Cuba
From: LoopySanchez
Date: 30 Jul 01 - 10:24 AM

Forgive me for backtracking a few days, but I just saw some posts from last week regarding my comments on Cuba. I suppose I should know better than to state anything that goes against the ideals that some in these threads hold dear. As for the forced child labor, the fact is that once a child reaches an age when he's competent to do the work, Castro puts them to work in sugar cane fields for several hours a day. As for their medical care being the best in the world, anyone who wants to can renounce their American citizenship can move to Cuba so they might take advantage of such a wonderful system. (Now of course, whenever Communists do the ranking of world health care systems, Cuba will always be somewhere near the top, because "universal health care" is most important factor in the ranking.) Funny thing is, most of the rafts I see on the news are headed north from Havana, not vice-versa.

As for my commment about crime statistics (Black males making up 7% of the population and commititng 40% of the violent crime), I invite you to provide me with the real number, if mine is not credible. I think you'll find that a difficult task. Now, if the mere mention of this statistic is considered racist (Bob P?), I must assume that any post that presents anything casting a liberally-protected minority in a less-than-positive light shall be considered racist (a word the definition of which I dare say most liberals don't know). You'll notice that after noting the crime statistic in question, I went on to say that I don't place blame in any one area, and suggested several areas of reform which Republicans and Democrats in power could seek to implement to reduce the crime. The biggest factor, in fact, is economics. You'll note that it was, in fact, the Irish who tended to commit a disproportionate amount of crime near the turn of the last century, when it was they who were to a large degree an economically disadvantaged ethnic group. (Can I say that without being considered Anti-Irish?)

Anyway, I apologize for challenging anyone to think or view an opinion other than their own. I neglected to realize that such opinions are invalid and unwelcome here, and that the facts supporting them are classified as lies by those who decide which opinions are valid.
Have a nice day!

Subject: RE: BS: Cuba
From: GUEST,Dewey
Date: 30 Jul 01 - 10:20 AM

No offense Little Hawk. But Actually Cuban Beaches Are CLOSED to the CUBAN PEOPLE not OPEN as you have stated (Please see the documentation of this at www.cubafreepress.org). But they are open and LIMITED to the TOURISTS ONLY!!!!! Since they have the MONEY. Actually, it is CASTRO who is exploiting the CAPITILIST system NOT the would be CAPITALISTIST that might replace him. It is ironic that cash starved Cuba has need of the CAPITALIST system for its survival. I do agree with you though that without the rule of law in Cuba Capitalism prabably would not be much better that the crap government they have now under Castro. Sorry I don't know how to make paragraphs. I try to respect other peoples opinions. And SINCERELY mean this. I think as human beings sometimes we get easily offended if someone might show a different bend on a story such as Cuba. I think this is the issue more than my paragraphs although I will work on them. I am completely computer illiterate and can't type or spell. All of us are more or less vain: we all like to be right most of the time. The only way to win and argue is to avoid it. No one is born knowing everything and I am not an academic. I do read alot of info. on the internet though, and I think my opinion on this one is based more on common sense, than my desire to impress fellow mudcatters with anything. I have terrible grammar and many many faults So please don't hate me for this. This is my last posting. Sorry it was so long and for my ramblings and speeches. I guess I am a bit like Fidel in this way!

Subject: RE: BS: Cuba
From: Crazy Eddie
Date: 30 Jul 01 - 10:04 AM

Or, you can simply use two consecutive line-breaks.

To make a line-break, use the less-than symbol,the letters "br" and then the greater-than symbol. Before you submit yout message, it looks like (br)but with < and > instead of ( and ).After the message is submitted, these disappear from the text, but act like a "carriage return"

Subject: RE: BS: Cuba
From: RichM
Date: 30 Jul 01 - 10:03 AM

It might be useful, Guest Dewey, if you came down from your ideological pulpit long enough to actually research what Cuba was like before Castro.

Batista and the American Mafia was NOT a better government.

Subject: RE: BS: Cuba
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 30 Jul 01 - 09:41 AM

To stick in a new paragraph, so making it more likely that your post will be read by othe people, GUEST Dewey, all you have to do is put a < followed by a >, with a P in between them.

Subject: RE: BS: Cuba
From: GUEST,Dewey
Date: 30 Jul 01 - 08:48 AM

Castro doesn't deserve the type of goverment he has. I see no reason for the U.S. to acknowledge it or support it EVER! To do so would be against everything we believe in as Americans, and would be an insult to the repressed and imprisoned Cuban people. Ronald Reagan was right in standing up against Communism in the 1980's, you can't compromise with tyranny EVER! Cuba isn't exactly socialist state like Sweden or Finland. It is a dictatorship of ideas and NOT a cooperative effort by a group of governed people. Plain and Simple. And Tyranny no matter the cause justifying it (health care benefits, workers rights, defeat of the mafia etc.) Is still tyranny. And governments that do this against their people are not only impractical governments, but are morally bankrupt as well. The U.S. must stand up for the liberty of Cuba especially now in the Post Cold War period when it finally has an oppportunity to bring about change to this imprisoned island, An island which is no longer a threat to the U.S. and our free society like it once was during the global domination expansionist era of the 1960's. With Cuban hands now tied militarily and financially, there is no reason to end the old policy we have worked so long and laboriously for. Castro is far from being our friend in the Post Cold War Era, if the Guns were his today as they were in the 1960's, could anyone doubt he would used them against Democracy and the U.S.A.? Thankfully we are no longer threatened by him, because historically he was defeated. However, his war of tyranny still remains: it hasn't reached America But it still effects millions of his own people each day. They are at war for their right to be human: to think their own thoughts, lead their own lives, and plan thier own futures. It is our obligation morally and strategically to help them win this war. Even if the war does not effect American's directly. Let's not compromise as Americans. We really are in the right, and Communism assuredly is in the wrong, and will always be so, and thus should (In the natural coarse of things) be forced to surrender! God Bless America! For at least under our system every person counts. And, also every person is respected for the individual talent he or she is!

Subject: RE: BS: Cuba
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 30 Jul 01 - 07:42 AM

But could you put in the paragraph breaks when you write somethingh like that. It makes my eyes spin trying to read it like that, so I tend to skip it.

That's not a quibble - it's like when in a discussion if someone starts rattling off without a pause for breath, you switch off and turn your attention to other things.

Fidel Castro used to make these marathon speeches lasting for hours and hours. Maybe that felt a bit like that.

Subject: RE: BS: Cuba
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 30 Jul 01 - 07:20 AM

Guest Dewey has summed it up perfectly. I have spent the last year and a half working eight hours a day in the company of Cuban expatriates, and I can vouch for the truth of everything he says.

Murray

Subject: RE: BS: Cuba
From: GUEST,Dewey
Date: 30 Jul 01 - 07:09 AM

Never been to Cuba either. I do know that it is an Authoritian Regime, without any legitimate voter privileges, religious freedom, freedom of association, political discourse, freedom of travel, freedom of the press based on several articles adopted straight from the Stalinist constitution. When Castro took over in 1959, he seized complete and absolute control over the newspapers and radio. He established the OSS Office of State Security and the CDR (Citizens In Defense of the Revolution) Citizens are daily handed propaganda, and ecouraged to report other dissident citizens to the ruling communist party if they feel their behavior may be at all "unpatriotic" to the goverment. O.S.S. officers tend daily to the task of monitoring street corners, looking for people who might cause trouble or discourse to the system, keeping the streets free of instigation. Children are sent away for months on end during their formative years to sugar plantations to work without pay, and to become youth members of the communist party. Parent are given "visitations" to see their own children, but cannot do so whenever they wish as this is not allowed accept only during allocated times, the plantation are often many miles from the homes of the parents. Children sometimes are forced to fight in wars for Castro in places like Africa, or sent on humanitarian medical projects abroad in other third world nations this too is something that is done without consent or reguard for the individuals or families that are involved. Families are basically subjects of the state and have no individual rights. Churches must apply for a state liscense to run a worship service. "Unlicensed" worship is subject to a FINE or IMPRISONMENT. Imprisonment can occur if the Religion is not approved of by the Communist party but still decides to operate anyway. Cuban has many documented political prisoners that amnesty international and other humanitarian organiztions have been trying to free especially inside jounralists who have chosen to print unflattering articles within the boundaries cuba concerning the government. I am truly amazed that so many people think that this is a model country and the the USA is the bad guy. Sure the health care is nice, but what about the GOVERNMENT OF CUBA. Many men in WW2 have fought and died to defeat such tyrannical governments now a couple of generations later we don't seem to even care about freedom. This is scary! As for China, We don't mess with them because they have resources and are bigger than us. Cuba does not. They are not a threat (anymore) this is true! but they are not exactly Angels either. Doesn't anyone remember the Cold War And the Missiles that were being placed there and targeted at American Cities. Doesn't anyone remember Castros threat the if he had the opportunity he would NUKE New York City! By please visit www.cubafreepress.org and you will hear from people who have not only been in Cuba but have lived under the authoritian system as well. You will find there a copy of the Cuban (stalinist) constitution. Read Castro's articles and you will see for yourself the scary parallels in it to the U.S.S.R.) Especially concerning the voting rules and press. By the way I have diabetes and pay for all my meidcations. Sure, they are free in cuba. But if I were there I would not be free! I would rather free than to have free stuff and live with what I have than have to put up with those thoughless tyrannical jerks controlling my life and future. I'm sorry about the mophia that ruled there previously, and today for the people living under the S.O.B. that rules the now. Looking forward to the McDonalds days over there AND GOD BLESS AMERICA!!!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Cuba
From: Little Hawk
Date: 29 Jul 01 - 07:22 PM

And don't forget to mention Washington's spectacular success over the last 50 years in provoking Communist revolutions in a host of places by supporting dictatorships that drove desperate 3rd World people to look for help elsewhere...such as the USSR...since they could get no help from America, which was funding their oppressors and their death squads.

That the Soviets also supported numerous dictatorships does not excuse Washington for doing so, and at the same time having the gall to call itself the leader of the "Free World". Free of what, is the question? They'd charge us for air and sunlight if they could figure out how to corner the market on them...

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: Cuba
From: Gareth
Date: 29 Jul 01 - 04:11 PM

Greg F - I am very much oblidged to you.

Actually I must cngratulate the Powers in Washington and Langley in their sucess in keeping Fidel in power.

Gareth

Subject: RE: BS: Cuba
From: fox4zero
Date: 29 Jul 01 - 01:48 PM

U.S. foreign policy towards Cuba is consistent with its infantilism, xenophobia and stupidity. The Red Scare has fostered so much self-destruction in this country.... McCarthyism, witch hunts dating back to WWI, the Siberian Expeditionary force in 1919, "cold" wars with USSR, China and little Cuba: "hot" wars with little Grenada, Korea, Viet Nam. The people who are most "patriotic" (nationalistic really) are the ones who have the least confidence in our constitution and our ability to realistically evaluate the threat to democracy that Cuba represents. They are the most xenophobic and virulently anti-communist. They are the ones who restrict our own freedoms in an attempt to keep us "Pure" These conservatives, in winning Cold War by bankrupting the USSR, also pissed away billions of US dollars which could have been put to good use here in education, health care, art, national parks....any civilian expenditure no matter how frivolous would have been more productive than Cold War expenditures which concentated the expenditures to a relatively some segment of our population. Military spending is generall non-produtive to out society. If we had listened to real China experts like General "Vinegar" Joe Stillwell, we would have forgotten the red scare crap and had friendly relations with Mao's China. The Soviets have always lived in fear of their giant neighbor, and both countries still keep large numbers of troops at their borders. If we had a non-aggression pact with China, the USSR would never have been as aggressive with us as they were. They are scared shitless of China! In summary, ther way to beat poverty and subsequent revolution is via Hiltons, Sheratons, auto factories and tourism $$$.

Larry

Subject: RE: BS: Cuba
From: Little Hawk
Date: 29 Jul 01 - 01:06 PM

Good article. It sums up the situation very accurately.

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: Cuba
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Jul 01 - 09:20 AM

Thanks I was going to point the observer article out myself
Can anyone find any info on the US govt not being happy with some text books that tell a too true picture of their involvement in Indonesia. Just that is what I was looking for when I saw the observer/cuba piece

Subject: RE: BS: Cuba
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 29 Jul 01 - 09:14 AM

Here's a pretty good piece from today's Observer (England) about Castro and Cuba, with a lot of relevant link stories.Fidel's parting shot

One particularly interesting aspect is the parallel with Ireland in the Cuban Revolution. (Though the writer doesn't mention the fact that Che Guevara's father came from Tipperary.)

Subject: RE: BS: Cuba
From: Little Hawk
Date: 27 Jul 01 - 11:46 AM

Doug - Yes, the Canadian government would have paid the whole million dollar tab for your wife's medical care. Now ask yourself how any decent society can have a system that charges a sick person a million dollars in the first place! That is criminal.

In ancient China the doctor earned his living by keeping his townspeople from getting sick in the first place. If the community stayed healthy, he earned the rewards. If people got sick, it was his sworn duty to heal them (if possible) and at NO CHARGE...not an opportunity to CASH IN!!!

Public health should never be charged for, any more than you would charge your own child 5 bucks before consenting to stick a bandaid on his hurt knee! The utter evil of a system that charges sick people money to heal them simply confounds me. It will one day be seen the way we now see the Dark Ages or the Spanish Inquisition.

It is equivalent to your own military refusing to defend your town, state, or country against a foreign invasion, unless every citizen forks over 50% of all the money in his bank account first, and puts in in the commanding general's hand!

It's sick, it's corrupt, it's evil.

As for the Berlin Wall...Yes, it should have come down...AND THEN the West should have kept its promises about what would supposedly happen afterward...the West did not keep its promises.

As McGrath said: "it wasn't allowed to happen. For the people in power in the West, especially in the United States and in the United Kingdom the worst nightmare would have been to see some kind of "socialism with a human face" offered as a real option to the peoples of Middle and Eastern Europe. They wanted to make deals with the crooks who had been running things so that together they could cream off the loot, and stop any of that kind of nonsense."

Same thing in Russia and most of the rest of the Eastern bloc. The crooks, mafia, and carpetbaggers have creamed off the loot. They were promised democracy...the BIG LIE...they were given corruption and social disaster. All those people were betrayed. What Gorbachev tried to do (socialism with a human face) was betrayed by the West, even as they praised him for so doing.

That's precisely what will happen to Cuba, once the barriers come down. In Cuba, $300 US is an excellent annual salary, providing a nice life. Can you imagine what will happen when Mr. Mafioso or Mr. Esso or Mr. McDonalds walks in with millions and millions of dollars in his hand? He will hire the thugs, the bully boys, the most ruthless and vicious people he can find, those who have no conscience and no allegiance to any higher ideal...and he will take over. He will exploit the shit out of the place. The poor will huddle in shantytowns. Their daughters (if attractive enough) will become fodder for the porn industry and the bordello. There will be plenty of cops on the street, and they will be NEEDED. There will be violence and despair. The mansions will once again have millionaires living in them, with plenty of armed guards, and the nicer beaches will be closed off to the ordinary public which now has free access.

Doug, I've told you before, you are living in Imperial Rome. I don't blame you for being a patriotic Roman, because that's what you are familiar with, but I don't believe you realize what Rome does out there in the hinterlands.

Remember Hadrian's wall? The Britons on the north side of it were poorer (materially speaking) than the Romans, but at least they were free. Tens of thousands of them died to preserve that freedom. When the Romans left, no one mourned.

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: Cuba
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 27 Jul 01 - 11:20 AM

Did anything I say imply I didn't welcome the wall coming down? The same way I'd like the wall between the United States and Cuba - both ways.

What I was talking about was the way it rapidly became clear that the main objection that the people in power in Washington and London and elsewhere had to the Iron Curtain countries wasn't that they were repressive or dictatorial. It was that they weren't capitalist.

Instead of aid provided in such as way that it would help open up the lives of the people, and give them more freedom, everything was geared in a doctrinaire fashion to breaking up any kind of nationalised industries etc, in a gold rush style devil-take-the-hindmost frenzy, designed to allow the crooks and the apparatchiks to steal for their own personal use what belonged to everybody.

The very people who had cynically profitted out of the "communist" system were the same people who became millionaires. Them and the mafia. And the carpetbaggers.

And you'll note that anyone in Eastern Europe who opposed what was going on was described as a conservative...

Subject: Lyr Add: BALLAD OF WILLIAM WORTHY (Phil Ochs)
From: Greg F.
Date: 27 Jul 01 - 11:06 AM

This is the song yopu're thinking of:

BALLAD OF WILLIAM WORTHY
(Phil Ochs)

Well, it's of a bold reporter a story I will tell
He went down to the Cuban land, the nearest place to hell
He'd been there many times before, but now the law does say
The only way to Cuba is with the CIA

     CHORUS:
     William Worthy isn't worthy to enter our door
     Went down to Cuba, he's not American anymore
     But somehow it is strange to hear the State Department say
     You are living in the free world, in the free world you must stay

Five thousand dollars or a five year sentence may well be
For a man who had the nerve to think that travelin' is free
Oh why'd he waste his time to see a dictator's reign
When he could have seen democracy by travelin' on to Spain?

CH.

So, come all you good travelers and fellow-travelers, too
Yes, and travel all around the world, see every country through
I'd surely like to come along and see what may be new
But my passport's disappearing as I sing these words to you

Well, there really is no need to travel to these evil lands
Yes, and though the list grows larger you must try to understand
Try hard not to worry if someday you should hear
That the whole world is off limits, visit Disneyland this year

CH.

Recorded on "All The News That's Fit to Sing"
Elektra EKL-269

Unfortunately, the only practical reason the sanctions are being maintained is that it ensures the "Cuban Exile" Vote to Republican Cold Warriors in various political offices, local, State and Federal.

Best, Greg.

Subject: RE: BS: Cuba
From: GUEST,John Gray / Australia
Date: 27 Jul 01 - 10:45 AM

I was in Guantanamo Bay in the harsher times of '65, boy - what a place. No doubt changed now. Okay , here's the best way to reverse the US gov't policy on travel to Cuba. Get Fidel to make an anouncement that every citizen of every country in the world is welcome to come to Cuba - except US citizens. I'm sure the US gov't would work very hard to ensure their citizens had the same equal rights. Wouldn't they ?

JG / F.M.E.

Subject: RE: BS: Cuba
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 27 Jul 01 - 10:11 AM

Wow Whistle! Great post!

You hit described my reasoning fo a "Marshall Plan" better than I could. Marshall, Truman, FDR et al were not stupid. They realized that investing in Europe and Japan would be a much better investment than rearming for the next great war. I believe a similar situation exists in the former Eastern Bloc. A starving, corrupt Russia is an accident waiting to happen. Right now they are in a race between chaos and democracy and the eventual winner is not yet apparant.

Social programs have a place in a capitalist system. Especially in the US. FDR proved that they are a buffer against depression. Also, the only thing worse than allowing people to starve is trying to allow people with guns to starve.

I like Cuban cigars... A lot! When I am back in Canada, I smoke one every now and then.

Subject: RE: BS: Cuba
From: Whistle Stop
Date: 27 Jul 01 - 08:35 AM

Wow -- lots of issued being discussed here in one big jumbled mass. Whether communism is a viable system (however it has been applied), the merits of government-sponsored health care vs. private health plans, the social impacts of corporate institutions on formerly closed societies, the viability of a Marshall plan in eastern Europe, the quality of Cuban cigars... makes my head spin.

Improved relations between the US and Cuba won't solve all the ills of either country, but I think they would be a step in the right direction. Our current situation has bi-partisan roots, and I'm happy to note that there appears to be a move towards a bi-partisan solution.

I think Castro has done pretty well by Cuba, when you consider how things could have worked out. I think we could have done a better job of tempering his authoritarian leanings if we had engaged constructively with Cuba, instead of drawing battle lines and trying to isolate them economically, diplomatically and militarily.

Whether or not something on the scale of the Marshall plan was or is warranted (either in Cuba or in eastern Europe), I think it's important to point out that our motivations in implementing the Marshall Plan were not completely altruistic; we did it because it served US interests to do so, by keeping western Europe within our own sphere of influence and preventing continuing wars prompted by scarce resources and failed infrastructures. The American taxpayers who footed such a substantial portion of the bill for the Marshall plan also realized substantial returns on their investment; we certainly weren't driven into poverty in the late 1940's and early 1950's by the Marshall Plan.

It's also worth noting that all of the major powers in the world have been steadily moving towards hybrid economic systems with elements of both socialism and capitalism. This only makes sense: "pure" capitalism is the economic law of the jungle, which allows the strong to completely dominate the weak, and lets huge numbers of people starve and/or die from inadequate housing, medical care, etc.; "pure" socialism results in a listless society which cannot compete with more robust economic systems elsewhere in the world. The US has been steadily moving towards a hybrid economic system since the days of FDR (at least), while countries like China are now moving aggressively towards a similar hybrid from the other end of the political/economic spectrum. World leaders who do not recognize the need for economic systems that are both market-based and socially responsible will gradually lead their countries to ruin, unless and until they are overthrown from within or conquered from without.

I don't smoke, so I'll defer to others on the quality of Cuban cigars.

Subject: RE: BS: Cuba
From: DougR
Date: 27 Jul 01 - 01:19 AM

THAT'S funny, Rick! His mother weaned him from crayons, I believe, a few days before he moved to Washington.

A Marshall Plan? One more drain on U. S. dollars which could be returned to the taxpayers! :>)

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Cuba
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 27 Jul 01 - 01:13 AM

I saw the article Doug....but then I'm an admitted News junkie.

Jeffatwork, the only thing that will get rid of all the Canadian tourists from Cuba, is if Florida somehow expands it's land mass substantially to fit them all in.

Doug. I would NEVER make a joke about Dubya using too many pens......I'm just glad he switched from CRAYONS!

Moot point anyway. I think US relations with Cuber (sorry, I remember JFK) will rapidly improve, if for nothing else, because China's Olympic Games victory has broken the ice. Won't be that difficult to do now and not lose face.

Rick

Subject: RE: BS: Cuba
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 27 Jul 01 - 12:04 AM

Perhaps we should have gone in wth a "Marshall Plan" when it did. Lucky thing for Cuba, they are an island. The isolation can allow them to transition more slowly. I think if Washinton were to drop the sanctions they'd have a good chance of developing a market economy and slowly transitioning. There's no doubt that China is better off than Russia. It takes time for people to learn to live in a democracy. It take time to develop democratic institutions.

Subject: RE: BS: Cuba
From: DougR
Date: 26 Jul 01 - 11:37 PM

So, McGrath, my friend, then you feel that the wall should not have come down?

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Cuba
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 26 Jul 01 - 09:58 PM

"If the large corporations you fear do move into Cuba (McDonald's, Wal-Mart, etc.), I think the life of the average Cuban will improve."

Well it certainly hasn't worked out that way in large parts of Eastern Europe.

The fall of the "communist" regimes could have been a wonderful thing in all ways - it could have meant an escape from the corruption and the oppression. At the same time it could have meant that the pretence of a commitment to equality and social solidarity could have been replaced by a genuine commitment to things like that, reflected kin better lives for ordinary people.

That's what most people wanted. It's what the West all those years had been promising would happen if they only tore down the Iron Curtain, and opened up. I remember at the time when the wall was pulled down we had some young dissident musicians from East Germany came over and gave a concert in the Playhouse in Harlow. They were delirious with excitement and hope - and they raised the rafters leading everyone in singing The Internationale.

But it wasn't allowed to happen. For the people in power in the West, especially in the United States and in the United Kingdom the worst nightmare would have been to see some kind of "socialism with a human face" offered as a real option to the peoples of Middle and Eastern Europe. They wanted to make deals with the crooks who had been running things so that together they could cream off the loot, and stop any of that kind of nonsense.

And that's what lies ahead for Cuba, unless there is some kind of miracle. They'll keep what was bad, and lose what was good.

Subject: RE: BS: Cuba
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 26 Jul 01 - 09:53 PM

Possibly a few bucks a day for a private room but any company plan would cover that. Thing is, in Canada everyone is covered. Old folks don't have to hock their homes to have an operation. I have to pay $200.00 deductable and 20% of medical fees. If I get seriously ill, I'll probably have to leave U.S.A. I don't have 20 % of $1,000,000.

The HMO's and Drug Companies in this country are an awesome and scary force. Cuba is way better of with their own system than it would be if it tried to adopt USA's.

Subject: RE: BS: Cuba
From: DougR
Date: 26 Jul 01 - 08:24 PM

There are all kinds of health plans, Jack, and maybe your company does not provide one of the better ones. Difficult to compare one company's health plan and what it provides to a Universal Health Plan which I assume Canada provides its citizens.

Before I retired, I worked for a non-profit professional theater company. Hardly a company that would be classified as a "fat cat" corporation. As an employee, I paid a reasonable monthly amount and my company paid the balance.

My wife was hospitalized for twelve weeks with eight of them in intensive care. The hospital bill was over one million dollars. My company's health plan, an HMO, plus Medicare paid the whole amount. I think that's pretty good. I assume from what you write, the government of Canada would have picked up the whole cost. Right? I'm not that familiar with the plan in Canada.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Cuba
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 26 Jul 01 - 08:01 PM

DougR Said

"LH: I know you do not agree, but if the large corporations you fear do move into Cuba (McDonalds, Wal-Mart, etc.), I think the life of the average Cuban will improve. Why? Because of the infusion of capital, and the creation of jobs. If the average Cuban earns enough, he can pay for his own health insurance, or get coverage provided by the Wal-Marts, etc."

Doug, I have been living in the USA for three years now. My Company provides health insurance and my coverage was a lot better back in Canada. If Health care is the major issue, Cuba, STAY COMMUNIST!!!

Cubans are way better off economically than their neighbours in Haiti and Dominica. The streets are much safer than Jamaica. Cuba and the US would both benefit with the lifting of the sanctions. But Cuba would be well served not to let the corporations take over from the communists.

Subject: RE: BS: Cuba
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 26 Jul 01 - 07:25 PM

Third-world healthcare, Loopy? Cuba has the lowest infant-mortality rate in the world. So if that's third-world, how do you describe the healthcare in, say, Washington DC>

Education is pretty good in Cuba too, and before you accuse it of indoctrinating, pause to consider why there is such a pathological loathing of Communism in America - far more pronounced than anything I've experienced anywhere else in the world. I've met many - many - Americans who think the McCarthy witchunts were a good idea, whereas in most parts of the world, and among my many American friends, they are seen as a cause for shame.

George (Little Hawk), that line in your recent posts, about the possibility of an ironic outcome from easing the hostility, was VERY perceptive. I too feel deep unease about how things might pan out.

People need to remember that Communism never got much of a chance, such was the scale of capitalist vested interest in seeing it fail. Certainly the Soviet experiment took place in the face of international hostility and was blighted by a monster (Stalin) of Hitler proportions. (No-one condemns capitalism because of Hitler, so it seems harsh to condemn Communism because of the monsters it bred.)

By and large, the systems generally described as Communist - China, USSR, etc - were/are in reality merely totalitarian. Many in East Germany were happier with even the shabby apology for communism that they lived with for 40 years than they are with their new-found capitalism. Everyone had a job, no matter how mickey-mouse it was, and because all incomes were within a relatively narrow band, there was little envy, or pressure to keep up with the neighbours. In other words there was general acceptance of their lot, if not actual contentment. Now the eastern part of the re-unified Germany is ridden with extreme poverty, amidst which a handful of crooks, capitalists, gang-leaders etc swan around pushing their obscene wealth up people's noses. Go there now and you'll see precious little contentment.

If the Cuban regime is communist, then I'd be the first to admit that that too is flawed. But they have posted some extraordinary achievements, particularly in health and education. Yet just as with the USSR in the 1920s and 1930s, they have had to cope with paranoid hostility from the wealthiest nation on earth.

Subject: RE: BS: Cuba
From: DougR
Date: 26 Jul 01 - 06:37 PM

LH: I know you do not agree, but if the large corporations you fear do move into Cuba (McDonalds, Wal-Mart, etc.), I think the life of the average Cuban will improve. Why? Because of the infusion of capital, and the creation of jobs. If the average Cuban earns enough, he can pay for his own health insurance, or get coverage provided by the Wal-Marts, etc.

True, I have not been to Cuba but I have been to the border towns of Mexico where poverty is rampant. In the United States anyone who only earns minimum wage lives a better life than folks do there. If not, why would so many Mexican citizens risk their lives to come to this country. They are not coming here to vacation, they are coming here to work! The majority of them are good people looking for a better way of life.

Nobody else saw the news story I referred to in my first posting?

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Cuba
From: Bob Pacquin
Date: 26 Jul 01 - 06:27 PM

Little Hawk,

You should know better than to take anything anyone who calls themselve "Loopy" seriously--I think Loopy makes it all up--In another thread, he says that "Black males are 7% of the population and commit 40% of all the violent crime"--and then had the nerve to claim that it wasn't a racist statement--

Subject: RE: BS: Cuba
From: Little Hawk
Date: 26 Jul 01 - 05:05 PM

You see, the main difference is that those hundreds of billions of dollars you mention would be going into a very few pockets (pockets of the already rich from America...call 'em carpetbaggers), while the ordinary Cubans would either lose most of what they already have...or they could sign up as security guards and bully-boys to protect the carpetbaggers....get to wear a nice blue uniform and carry a machinegun and rape the neighbours daughters....just like having Batista back again. Gotta love that democracy! Check it out in Guatemala and El Salvador and those other places that are "moving towards democracy"...oops, I mean "autocracy".

Cuba is far from perfect. The dictatorships the USA has traditionally funded in Latin America are even farther from perfect. Much farther.

Now, you wanna talk about communism? Check out China, your biggest trading partner. That's communism with a vengeance, combined with some really nasty capitalism as well...an interesting combination of vice and dictatorship.

It's because Cuba is small that America pushes Cuba around, not because Cuba is evil.

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: Cuba
From: Gareth
Date: 26 Jul 01 - 05:04 PM

Leaving out the political raison re Cuba, wasn't there a satirical song about a US traveller to Cuba.

Snatches I rember, possibly the chorus

"William Worthy's not american any more
He went down to the Cuban lands ....

You are living in the free worlsBR> In the free world you must stay"

Gareth

Subject: RE: BS: Cuba
From: Little Hawk
Date: 26 Jul 01 - 04:55 PM

Well, Loopy, have you been there? You ought to see for yourself. The health care is first-world quality, and the education is no more propagandistic than what I got in New York State in the 60's. Which is to say, that like the USA, they think they are right.

"forced child labour"???

Say what? I saw plenty of that in Mexico, but not in Cuba. What I saw in Cuba was a greater measure of social equality than I have seen in most other places.

Where do you get this stuff?

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: Cuba
From: LoopySanchez
Date: 26 Jul 01 - 04:39 PM

No, it won't be free any more, but right now their "free" health care and education systems are worth every penny it costs them. It wouldn't be that tough to give assistance as Cuba moved towards Democracy. Am I to understand that some fellow Mudcatters see Communism, forced child labor, internment camps for AIDS patients, no freedom of press, third-world health care, and an education system that only succeeds in stripping freewill and endoctrinating citizens to be a combined LESSER evil than self reliance and the occasional Blockbuster Video Store littering the landscape? In a perfect world, I'll take neither, but if I have to choose one or the other, I think I'll make it a Blockbuster night, and pass on the Communism. And I seriously doubt that rent and power bills are going to bankrupt an island country that could make hundreds of billions a year in tourism and premium cigar sales alone.

Subject: RE: BS: Cuba
From: Little Hawk
Date: 26 Jul 01 - 04:18 PM

Hi, Doug...

From a moral or ethical point of view, the US should not keep the sanctions. But...the moment the sanctions are gone, the power of the allmighty buck will pour over the border with all its inducements to the greed of the common man...

And in short order the ordinary Cuban will no longer be able to get free medical care or free education...cos it won't be free any more...and his rent and hydro will go up 400%, and there will be people living in holes in the ground...like I saw in Mexico.

That's why I say it's the height of irony.

Sorry, but I do not have a convenient and handy solution for this situation, and if I did, no one would do anything about it anyway.

Canada is presently just a branch plant of the USA. The Canada I knew as a boy is virtually dead and gone. Only the bare edifice remains. Behind it stand ranks of McDonald's and WalMarts.

Doug, I despair at what has happened to my nation. A society that lives by the credo of the "bottom line" is a society that has lost its soul. You have to go somewhere else, before you really notice the difference, and sense the hollowness within. Soon there may be nowhere else left to go.

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: Cuba
From: Kim C
Date: 26 Jul 01 - 04:05 PM

I can see it now. McDonald's and Walgreens and Starbucks and Borders in Cuba.

Subject: RE: BS: Cuba
From: DougR
Date: 26 Jul 01 - 04:03 PM

So, LH? Should the U. S. keep the sanctions then?

Subject: RE: BS: Cuba
From: DougR
Date: 26 Jul 01 - 04:01 PM

My fellow Mudcatters should read their morning newspapers. I read in today's paper that a bill has passed the House of Representatives that will ease traveling to Cuba for American citizens. It could not have passed without bi-partisan support, particularly in the House, because the Republicans have the majority there.

I have not heard what the Bill's chances are in the Senate, but I would think chances are good it will pass there too.

I have not heard what the White House's opinion of the Bill is, but I expect we will be learning that soon. Even if Bush signs the Bill, I'm sure my fairminded Mudcat friends will still find something for which to criticize him. Maybe he used too many pens to sign the Bill? :>)

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Cuba
From: Little Hawk
Date: 26 Jul 01 - 03:55 PM

The interesting thing about the sanctions, and Cuba's isolation, is that it may be the only thing that's kept the place relatively pure thus far, while keeping it starved for money at the same time.

This is the height of irony.

I have the feeling that when the sanctions finally fall, most of what is fine and unique about Cuba will soon fall as well.

Sadly.

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: Cuba
From: rea
Date: 26 Jul 01 - 03:51 PM

the funny thing is that until i was a senior in high school (okay,so that was two years ago) i had no idea that cuba had such a bustling tourist trade. the entire reason we don't lift sanctions is it makes the boys in dc feel big. of course, if you wanted to be sly about it, you could argue that lifting the sanctions would allow all sorts of american tourists in and then the cubans would see how "wonderful" our democratic (mostly) government is. (insert sarcasm) because, or course, no one would want to live in a country where over 90% of the adult population is literate.

Subject: RE: BS: Cuba
From: Kim C
Date: 26 Jul 01 - 03:09 PM

I had a Cuban cigar once, and I might get thrashed here myself, but it wasn't really any better than my beloved Macanudos. Cigars from Honduras and the Dominican Republic are quite fine, thank you very much. I think the allure of the Cuban cigar lies mostly in the fact that they're contraband. (Had some Dutch ones too, that were pretty good.)

We made nice with Japan, we made nice with China, we made nice with Germany. Now we oughta make nice with Cuba. It's just so ridiculous not to. Castro ain't gonna be around forever anyhow.

There's an eccentric retired judge here in Nashville who goes to Cuba all the time (or used to, anyway). He went by way of Jamaica. He said the people in Cuba are really nice, and Really Happy for Americans to come there because we Spend Money. He also said parts of Cuba are quite beautiful.

I think it's quite past time to let bygones be bygones. Whatever happened to the kinder, gentler government?

Subject: RE: BS: Cuba
From: RichM
Date: 26 Jul 01 - 02:52 PM

Bravo, Little Hawk.

Best summary of the situation, that I have seen.

Rich

Subject: RE: BS: Cuba
From: GUEST,jeffatwork
Date: 26 Jul 01 - 02:52 PM

Want to bet that Rush, Dubya, Dick, and Teddy DON'T smoke Cuban ceegars in private? there are perks for the rich that would be 'crimes' for the rest. The day Castro croaks, Macdonalds will be landing on the beach, closely followed by the Mob. That'll get rid of the Canadian tourists, and all will be back to normal.

jeffatwork

Subject: RE: BS: Cuba
From: Abby Sale
Date: 26 Jul 01 - 02:51 PM

Happy Cuba Revolution Day [NH]
re: Castro's 1st attack on army= 7/26/1953

Courage was their only armor,
As they fought at Fidel's side, with Che Guevara

from "The Cuban Revolutionaries," MacColl & Seeger

Subject: RE: BS: Cuba
From: Little Hawk
Date: 26 Jul 01 - 02:43 PM

True, McGrath. Vietnam is a case in point.

If the USA ever collects its accumulated karma for Vietnam, Cuba, Chile, El Salvador, the Indians, and a host of other convenient recipients of the ongoing pursuit of Manifest Destiny and the Allmighty Buck, it will make Sodom and Gomorrah look like a picnic.

One man's lawbreaker is another man's freedom fighter, and George Bush can go to hell as far as I'm concerned. He says what his handlers tell him to say. The people who opposed the Nazis were "lawbreakers" too...Germany had laws in place...remember? Just because a law is on the books does not mean it is a rightful law in a greater human sense. George Washington and all his men were lawbreakers too. Your greatest heroes were the most notorious lawbreakers of their day.

And for those who hate Castro...well, you should consider what was there before him. Castro was a huge improvement over Batista, which is why he won his revolution, although he had far less money and far less firepower than Batista did. Castro admired the American revolutionaries of 1776, but he did not realize at first that only money counts in America now, and that the ideals of 1776 were buried long, long ago in the vaults of Fort Knox and the halls of the Pentagon.

Castro fought for national sovereignty, land for the small farmers, universal medical care and education for the populace, and racial equality, and he achieved all of those. His opponents fought for the Mafia, the casinos, laundered money, and the maintenance of a gigantic island-sized whorehouse. Pick your sides, folks.

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: Cuba
From: Whistle Stop
Date: 26 Jul 01 - 02:40 PM

I hope you're wrong, Spaw, but I suspect you may be right. The thing that amazes me about Cuba is that I really can't figure out what it is that they did to us that made us so upset. True, they took their country back from an oppressive elite that had been kept in power with the aid of American corporate dollars; true, they embraced a Marxist/Leninist philosophy, and got cozy with the USSR (once they knew the big powerful country to their north wasn't going to be nice to them, so they better make friends with somebody else); true, they foiled our inept attempt at a US-sponsored coup at the Bay of Pigs. Viewed rationally, all they did in all three of these examples was to stand up for themselves when we tried to bully them. So WE are upset at THEM?

After last year's Elian fiasco, I really hoped that my country would wake up and start to take a more rational and constructive approach to our relations with Cuba. I really think that we could do more for the Cuban people, and for the people of the United States, by taking some positive steps to reduce tensions, with an eye to normalizing relations betwen our two countries. Our current approach is pointless, and is only being driven (still!) by a small Cuban expatriate community in Florida, and their ability to throw their weight behind whichever candidate or party agrees to keep the hostility going. It makes for a truly depressing situation, in my opinion.