Litotes in song

Subject: Litotes in song
From: Suffet
Date: 29 Aug 01 - 09:00 PM

A litotes (LIE-toe-teez) is an intentional double negative used as a rhetorical device to express a weak or otherwise qualified affirmative. An example would be "I wouldn't call his situation hopeless." That's not quite the same as saying "I would call his sitaution hopeful."

Bob Dylan penned a classic litotes in "Don't Think Twice" when he wrote, "I ain't saying you treated me unkind..."

Can any 'Catter out there come up with another litotes in folk or folk-like song lyrics?


--- Steve

Subject: RE: Litotes in song
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 29 Aug 01 - 09:32 PM

. Litotes, a particular form of understatement, is generated by denying the opposite or contrary of the word which otherwise would be used. Depending on the tone and context of the usage, litotes either retains the effect of understatement, or becomes an intensifying expression. Compare the difference between these statements:

Heat waves are common in the summer.
Heat waves are not rare in the summer.
Johnson uses litotes to make a modest assertion, saying "not improperly" rather than "correctly" or "best":

This kind of writing may be termed not improperly the comedy of romance. . . .
Occasionally a litotic construction conveys an ironic sentiment by its understatement:

We saw him throw the buckets of paint at his canvas in disgust, and the result did not perfectly represent his subject, Mrs. Jittery.
Usually, though, litotes intensifies the sentiment intended by the writer, and creates the effect of strong feelings moderately conveyed.

Hitting that telephone pole certainly didn't do your car any good.
If you can tell the fair one's mind, it will be no small proof of your art, for I dare say it is more than she herself can do. --Alexander Pope

A figure lean or corpulent, tall or short, though deviating from beauty, may still have a certain union of the various parts, which may contribute to make them on the whole not unpleasing. --Sir Joshua Reynolds

He who examines his own self will not long remain ignorant of his failings. Overall the flavors of the mushrooms, herbs, and spices combine to make the dish not at all disagreeable to the palate.

But note that, as George Orwell points out in "Politics and the English Language," the "not un-" construction (e.g., "not unwilling") should not be used indiscriminately. Rather, find an opposite quality which as a word is something other than the quality itself with an "un" attached. For instance, instead of, "We were not unvictorious," you could write, "We were not defeated," or "We did not fail to win," or something similar.

Hope you don't mind Steve, just fleshing out your litotes definition with an excerpt from a Google search,

Still can't think of any litotic folk-songs, however.

Murray

Subject: RE: Litotes in song
From: wysiwyg
Date: 30 Aug 01 - 12:43 AM

Don't make no nevermind to me.

~S~

Subject: RE: Litotes in song
From: Suffet
Date: 30 Aug 01 - 07:05 AM

It's an example from jazz, but "Ain't Misbehavin'" is certainly as good a litotes as any. The music was by Thomas "Fats" Waller and Harry Brooks. But the litotic lyricist was one Andy Razaf. "Ain't Misbehavin'" was first published in 1929.

--- Steve

Subject: RE: Litotes in song
From: Wolfgang
Date: 30 Aug 01 - 07:53 AM

Here are a few from the DT:

You have to pluck them fresh, if they're fresh it's not unpleasant, (pheasant plucker)
And in no uncertain way she told him where to get off (DRINKING WITH ROSIE)
Don't pay no union dues (King of the road), but that's not really what you mean
of the last type there are more I guess as in 'London girls don't wear no panty-hose' (London Derriere)
here's a rare triple: There ain't no unemployment (Farina's MAINLINE PROSPERITY BLUES)
Where no unkind words are spoken (Shouting in the air)
We don't like the scroungers, the no-goods (Nice people like us)

It is easy to find dozens by a websearch in modern no-folk lyrics. I guess they are getting rarer by oral way of preservation.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: Litotes in song
From: Steve Parkes
Date: 30 Aug 01 - 11:56 AM

I think we're getting a little off the path here, guys. "Ain't misbehavin'" isn't litotes, neither is "no unkind words". Litotes is the converse of hyperbole: it's the deliberate use of understatement for literary or rhetorical effect, so "not half bad" qualifies, as does "pretty good" when you really mean "very good"; you don't have to have the counter-negation "not un-". A double negative signifies an affirmative, if you're a little pedantic, or a negative in most colloquial speech. Curiously, there's no such thing as a double affirmative signifying a negative. Yeah, yeah!

Steve

Subject: RE: Litotes in song
From: sophocleese
Date: 30 Aug 01 - 12:10 PM

Thanks for giving me name for something I use off and on, I never knew it. I cannot think of a song example off the top of my head but I'll probably spend ages today running through lyrics in my head.

Subject: RE: Litotes in song
From: Wolfgang
Date: 30 Aug 01 - 12:23 PM

Cause there's not many men that done the things that you've done. (Song for Woody)

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: Litotes in song
From: Wolfgang
Date: 30 Aug 01 - 12:25 PM

I'll give the Law no little shock, remember what I say (Jim Jones in Botany bay)

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: Litotes in song
From: Kim C
Date: 30 Aug 01 - 12:28 PM

Hmpf. I feel cheated now. I have a college degree in the language arts and I never heard the term "litotes" before. What were they teaching me anyhow? My education has not been unhelpful, however. ;-)

Subject: RE: Litotes in song
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Aug 01 - 12:41 PM

The term is "litote"; litotes refers to more than one of them. But it isn't that bad of a mistake.

Subject: RE: Litotes in song
From: Wolfgang
Date: 30 Aug 01 - 01:00 PM

Yeah, GUEST, and if you mean the Greek Hell you have to say 'Hade' and only if you mean several of them you say 'Hades'. Some Greek words end with an 's' in the singular.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: Litotes in song
From: Kim C
Date: 30 Aug 01 - 01:01 PM

According to my dictionary, it's litotes, with the plural also being litotes. Not unlike the word "sheep." ;-)

Subject: RE: Litotes in song
From: Wolfgang
Date: 30 Aug 01 - 01:23 PM

But the idea is suitable for extension: Professor A has discovered several new species, professor B only has discovered one new specie.
'Where will you spend Christma this year?' 'Florida, as all the christmas in the last couple of years.'

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: Litotes in song
From: Kim C
Date: 30 Aug 01 - 01:38 PM

Isn't "specie" a word that has to do with something not unlike money or coinage?

Subject: RE: Litotes in song
From: Mary in Kentucky
Date: 30 Aug 01 - 01:58 PM

Is this one from Arkansas Traveler?

My cabin never leaks when it doesn't rain.

Subject: RE: Litotes in song
From: Kim C
Date: 30 Aug 01 - 02:19 PM

Since my phone still ain't ringin I assume it still ain't you... does that count?

I'm sure there's a bunch in my John Prine collection but I just can't think of any offhand...

If it weren't so expensive I'd wish I was dead (?)

Subject: RE: Litotes in song
From: Alice
Date: 30 Aug 01 - 02:52 PM

All strangers, they are no friends to me (Lakes of Ponchartrain)

Subject: RE: Litotes in song
From: Podger
Date: 30 Aug 01 - 02:57 PM

Do you folks really analyze songs to this extent?

Subject: RE: Litotes in song
From: Kim C
Date: 30 Aug 01 - 03:21 PM

Words are often fun to play with, and spotting certain words, or phrases, in songs, is something of a game.

Subject: RE: Litotes in song
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Aug 01 - 04:18 PM

Wolfgang: I know Greek and you are most definitely incorrect.

www.dictionary.com

Incidentally, litote.com was available as of a week ago and I almost snagged it but decided I own too many sites already. Not a bad name.

Subject: RE: Litotes in song
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Aug 01 - 04:21 PM

Other interesting figures of speech are defined here.

Subject: RE: Litotes in song
From: Kim C
Date: 30 Aug 01 - 04:55 PM

litotes

litotes (lì´te-têz´, lît´e-, lì-to´têz) noun plural litotes A figure of speech consisting of an understatement in which an affirmative is expressed by negating its opposite, as in This is no small problem.

[Greek litotês, from litos, plain.]

Excerpted from The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Third Edition © 1996 by Houghton Mifflin Company. Electronic version licensed from INSO Corporation; further reproduction and distribution in accordance with the Copyright Law of the United States. All rights reserved.

Subject: Am behavin'
From: Suffet
Date: 30 Aug 01 - 08:06 PM

"Ain't Misbehavin'" certainly is a litotes. In fact, it is worthy of being a dictionary example. The protagonist affirms that he IS behaving by negating its opposite.

Subject: Am behavin'
From: Suffet
Date: 30 Aug 01 - 08:11 PM

"Ain't Misbehavin'" certainly is a litotes. In fact, it is worthy of being the dictionary example. The protagonist affirms that he is behaving by negating the opposite.

--- Steve

Subject: RE: Litotes in song
From: Steve Parkes
Date: 31 Aug 01 - 03:24 AM

So would "go, and sin no more" count? As an alternative to "go, and be good", maybe? Oh my goodness, I think we may have a literary grey area here. If someone who misbehaves regularly, a persistant malefator, a recidivist (some nice long words for you!) decides to be good for a while, he can say, without understatement (i.e. not litotically), "I ain't misbehavin'". (Bad guys tend to talk like that.) Onthe other hand, a faithful lover, with some literary pretension and a sparkle in his eye, might prefer to says "ain't misbehavin'" in preference to "am behavin'"; or "being faithful", if he wanted to be prosaic. Must be a contextual thing.

Steve

P.s. Podger--we're not really analysing songs, we're looking for an excuse to fight!

Subject: RE: Litotes in song
From: Suffet
Date: 31 Aug 01 - 07:12 AM

To be sung to the tune of FRÈRE JACQUES...

When she signals, when she signals,
To the boys, to the boys,
I ain't unavailable, I ain't unavailable,
That's a lie to tease, litotes!

© Stephen L. Suffet 2001


So how many literay devices went into that rhyme?

--- Steve

Subject: RE: Litotes in song
From: Steve Parkes
Date: 31 Aug 01 - 09:06 AM

Does "barefaced cheek" count?

Subject: RE: Litotes in song
From: Steve Parkes
Date: 31 Aug 01 - 09:17 AM

Well, let's see ...
The repetitions don't count, because they're a feature of the verse structure
"The boys" is a ... thingy--where we're not referring to any specific boys, but any generalised boys either indidvidually or in groups
"I ain't unavailable" is litotes
"lie to tease" is a pun

That's three; have I missed any? Yes!! Just realised:
scansion--the deliberate insertion of extra syllables in lines three and four for comic effect

Steve

Subject: RE: Litotes in song
From: Wolfgang
Date: 02 Sep 01 - 05:20 AM

GUEST, I know greek as well, but I can't display greek symbols here. Here's a page displaying the original greek expression in Greek letters and you can easily spot the end sigma there.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: Litotes in song
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 02 Sep 01 - 10:30 AM

One of my favorite moments in detective fiction occurred in a Dick Francis novel. The narrator, as usual a former jockey, recalled his English teacher, who said, "For heaven's sake,when you want to say what something is, don't say what it's not." Since I feel a mild irritation every time I have to stop reading and untangle a litotes, I liked that.

Subject: RE: Litotes in song
From:
Date: 02 Sep 01 - 03:27 PM

Steve: "there's no such thing as a double positive implying a negative" Me: "Yeah, sure!"

Also, "Aint misbehavin'" quoted several times as meaning being good. Wrong! If you're dead you ain't misbehavin, but you ain't being good either. A double negative does not necessarily connote a positive

Interesting subject matter though.

Not folk, but modern, How about Pink Floyds "The Wall": ? "We don't need no education" 'no' is being used for emphasis, but from the mangling of the English language, education is certainly lacking.

Apologies for any strange spellings, but English is my first language!

Subject: RE: Litotes in song
From: Suffet
Date: 02 Sep 01 - 11:29 PM

Then there is...

I'm just a poor boy whose intentions are good,
Oh, baby, please don't let me be misunderstood!

From Eric Burdon, "Don't Let Me Be Misunderstood"


That works much better than...

I'm just a poor boy whose intentions are good,
Oh, baby, please let me be understood!


--- Steve

Subject: RE: Litotes in song
From: Amos
Date: 02 Sep 01 - 11:56 PM

"Ain't Misbehaving" definitely DOES mean one is being "good," whatever that word means! To misbehave is to violate expected moral conduct. Not MIS-behaving is semantically equivalent to behaving (the implication of behaving rightly or correctly being understood, since in fact even a bad actor is behaving.)

Nor is it a correct example of litotes, since the intention is to explicitly state one is not doing something (misbehaving) not exagerrate by understatement, nor to make an assertion more modest. Misbehaviour is defined as "bad" conduct and the phrase is an assurance that one isn't engaging in it. The argument about being dead is moot since the expression's original contect is in the first person singular, and thus an assertion not likely to be offered by someone dead.

The writer could have said something to the effect that his current conduct was not unvirtuous. This is the "modest assertion" type of littes. If the writer had said "My behaviour is not wildly licentious, never fear!" or if the writer had said, "I guess I am not an angel but I am saving my love for you....", the other kind of litotes (emphasis by contrast) would have been created. But saying one isn't misbehaving when one is not misbehaving doesn't qualify IMHO

A

Subject: RE: Litotes in song
From: Steve Parkes
Date: 03 Sep 01 - 03:48 AM

Nigel: sorry to be pedantic, but: "Curiously, there's no such thing as a double affirmative signifying a negative. Yeah, yeah!". Go back and read my post again. (BTW, don't this as a criticism: I don't read everything either!)

I'd class "We don't need no education" as ironic use of ungrammatical colloquial speech; it's meant to reinforce the message of the song. Where did PF go to school? I think they had a better education than you might infer.

Steve

Subject: RE: Litotes in song
From: Dicho (Frank Staplin)
Date: 03 Sep 01 - 09:17 PM

Wolfgang, you are a scholar of no mean accomplishment. Off the thread, species is species singular and species plural. Yes, KimC, specie is what we cannot do without, bread, folding green, a bit of the ready, etc, necessary to buy Kim Chee in a Korean restaurant. Also not near the mark, is there a name for this kind of statement: "Thar I was, out in the big middle (of Brazos County or whatever).

Subject: RE: Litotes in song
From: Dicho (Frank Staplin)
Date: 03 Sep 01 - 09:37 PM

In the current thread, Re: "In the Pines" revisited, Stewie posted the lines to a song. "I didn't bring nothing to this old world, and I won't carry nothing away." Litotes, I don't think, but a nice use of double negatives two lines in a row. The site posted by guest wouldn't be a loss if it was removed from the internet. There are no few imitations of dictionaries out there. They are even worse than spelchek and that is no mean feat.

Subject: RE: Litotes in song
From: Skipjack K8
Date: 04 Sep 01 - 05:09 AM

It came to me this morning, on the M180 in North Lincolnshire. I'd been mulling this one over for a few days, and here it is:-

"One lunchtime Ted saw Ernie's horse and cart outside her door, It drove him mad to find it was still there at half past four So he jumped down from his cart, hot blood through his veins did course, And he went across to Ernie's cart, and didn't half kick his horse."

Ernie, the fastest milkman in the west - Benny Hill. Epic

Subject: RE: Litotes in song
From: Mary in Kentucky
Date: 04 Sep 01 - 08:34 AM

How about Dylan's "Don't Think Twice":

I ain't sayin' you treated me unkind

Subject: RE: Litotes in song
From: Kim C
Date: 04 Sep 01 - 10:18 AM

I've never eaten kim chee before but being no small consumer of spicy foods, I'd be willing to try it...

Subject: RE: Litotes in song
From: Fibula Mattock
Date: 04 Sep 01 - 10:34 AM

To assemble not an insignificant collection of such litotes is no mean feat. This thread is not displeasing to me.

Subject: RE: Litotes in song
From: Steve Parkes
Date: 04 Sep 01 - 11:32 AM

Not bad, FM!

Subject: RE: Litotes in song
From: Mary in Kentucky
Date: 04 Sep 01 - 01:42 PM

It's Not Unusual - by Tom Jones

Subject: RE: Litotes in song
From: Mary in Kentucky
Date: 04 Sep 01 - 01:43 PM

(sung by Tom)

Subject: RE: Litotes in song
From: Mary in Kentucky
Date: 04 Sep 01 - 03:23 PM

Sorry about that repeat on the Dylan lyrics, Suffet. I guess I just subconciously had it in my head. I'm still a little confused by the definitions.

If we follow the strict definition by Suffet, the second word (the one which is negated) has to be a negation of a positive word itself. (an "un" or "mis" word)

If we use Murray's definition, it is a bit more subjective...denying the opposite or contrary of the word which otherwise would be used.

For example, in Dixie, "Old times there are not forgotten" (think of forgotten as the opposite of remembered...forgotten being a negative and remembered being a positive)

Or in The Yellow Rose of Texas, "We never more shall part" (think of the word "part" as the opposite of "stay together"..."part" being a negative and "stay together being a positive)

Subject: RE: Litotes in song
From: Fibula Mattock
Date: 05 Sep 01 - 06:55 AM

No nae never
No nae never no more
Will I play the wild rover
No never no more


(aargh, my brain hurts...)

Subject: RE: Litotes in song
From: kytrad (Jean Ritchie)
Date: 05 Sep 01 - 02:13 PM

Well, I couldn't care less...

Subject: RE: Litotes in song
From: Mary in Kentucky
Date: 05 Sep 01 - 03:06 PM

Along the lines of the broader definition:

Which ne'er forgot will be,
And for bonnie Annie Laurie
I'd lay me doon and dee.

FM, I thought of No, Nae, Never...but I think that's just repition for emphasis...not sure though.

Jean, there must be lots of Appalachian expressions and songs...just can't think of any more.

Subject: RE: Litotes in song
From: Dicho (Frank Staplin)
Date: 05 Sep 01 - 03:33 PM

"No, nae, never" ain't no litotes, just a triple negative reinforcement. Not negatives of a contrary. The song is not a bad rouser, however.

Subject: RE: Litotes in song
From: Fibula Mattock
Date: 05 Sep 01 - 03:45 PM

no more will I play the wild rover...?

Subject: RE: Litotes in song
From: Steve Parkes
Date: 07 Sep 01 - 03:29 AM

No, no, no!!! Don't forget, there must be an element of deliberate understatement: "not a little" instead of "a lot", for example. I'm beginning to see why my old English master Eric Foers used to get so worked up!

Steve

Subject: RE: Litotes in song
From: Suffet
Date: 07 Sep 01 - 07:07 AM

I hope he never came unglued.

Subject: RE: Litotes in song
From: Fibula Mattock
Date: 07 Sep 01 - 07:34 AM

Bah. I'm always being so damn negative!

Subject: RE: Litotes in song
From: Wilfried Schaum
Date: 07 Sep 01 - 07:58 AM

Hello,

never forget: in a lot of dialects the double negation means not the strong affirmative, but a stronger negation, e.g. "no, sir, I never drank no beer today" as a Bavarian EM told me when questioned about drinking during his duty in the emergency platoon.

The greek word is definitely "litotes" in Greek, not litote. I checked both entries in dictionary.com and found 3 entries for litotes, only 1 for litote. I'm still marvelling why Princeton gives both forms - but who wants to be a Princeton man?

The Latin school where I took my final exam in Greek language and literature was founded in 1543 and they still swear that the correct form is litotes, as I read in every Greek or Latin Grammar in my school days.

Wilfried

Subject: RE: Litotes in song
From: Wilfried Schaum
Date: 07 Sep 01 - 08:50 AM

Hello,

thinking it over, I have to add some more remarks:

Not every double negation is a litotes: "Not unusual" must not necessaryly mean "very usual". There is an usual way and there are unusual ways to do a thing (the third way is the Army way, ha ha). "Not unusual" can also denote a way which deviates from the usual, but is still exercised by a minority.

Best example I can find: In former times the men of Rügen (German island) used to wear kilts. Even now it's not unusual to find old men clinging to this custom.

But the original question was about litotes in song. I think that you'll find no litotes in folk songs. Litotes is a highly artistic figure of educated speech used by orators (e.g. Demosthenes, Cicero, few modern politicians), but not by the common man in everyday speech. So I am convinced that my former statement about the double negation is valid: double negation in folksongs will be a strengthening of the simple negation.

Wilfried

Subject: RE: Litotes in song
From: Dicho (Frank Staplin)
Date: 07 Sep 01 - 03:23 PM

This thread is slowly coming to a point of no return, but I couldn't help adding a Yorkshire version of high praise: "It could be wuss."