for all who wish for war

Subject: RE: for all who wish for war
From: GUEST
Date: 22 Oct 01 - 08:08 PM

Thank you for your efforts Larry and that of your fellow Quakers. It may not make any diifference, but at least it is a breath of sanity.

I have a couple of questions,

1 Why is it that anyone (myself included) that suggests addressing causes rather than symptoms feel the necessity to make explicit their horror at the slaughter in New York? Can this not be taken as read in view of our common humanity?

2., but those who a advocate military response, onstrufe ,

Subject: RE: for all who wish for war
From: ddw
Date: 22 Oct 01 - 06:38 PM

Larry,

Would that you were right, but a hard look at history tells me you have about as much chance of reasoning with a mad dog. Zealots like bin Laden (plug in whatever name you want from history of his ilk) think in a circle and logic is linear. They can't get from point A to point B, because B lies outside th circle and any attempt to straighten the circle to get there is another "trick" of the opposition. Same shit as trying to reason with a born-again Christian. It's a waste of breath.

That said, and with pretty good evidence that bin Laden, the Taliban and al-Qaida are pretty committed to killing us, I think the choice is clear. You go in, kill as surgically as possible to get as few non-combattants as you can, and wipe out the idiocy.

APPEASEMENT DOESN'T WORK.

david

Subject: RE: for all who wish for war
From: GUEST
Date: 22 Oct 01 - 06:28 PM

I think Little Hawk that you have finally grasped why they are fleeing. Not from the bombs, but from the insane terrorists who are running the country. Blindly spitting in the face of the western democracies, using their corruption of Islam to justify the mass murder of business people from over 62 countries. They turned commercial flights into instruments of war, and destroyed innocent lives without remorse. Now I understand the noble aspirations of gentle people who oppose violence; in fact their cries for compromise, and a return to civilized international dialogue, are those desires which make the great democracies truly a model to follow. But you must understand that all attempts at allowing peacefull negotiation have failed. The Taliban not only oppress the Afghans (sorely tried by years of warfare) but they totally disregard the rule of international law. The USA are now enforcing the fact that negotiation and compromise can only be adhered to if all the sides are willing to try. Clearly this has not been the case, and that this war is not only justified, it is vital to teach these morons that you cannot accomplish religious bigotry and repression by violence, without suffering terrible retribution from your victims. Once this lesson is learned world peace may actually become fact and not fiction. The space age hords of Ghengis Khan will perish first methinks. Golda Meier was a very brilliant woman she once stated quite factually "the only time there will be peace with Israel will be when the Arabs love their children more than they hate the jews" That statement holds true with the USA (NATO) Sir William Stephenson (Intrepid) the head of the British secret service in WW2 stated to his biographer " What seems poignantly obvious to me is that humankind already has awesome enemies to engage- poverty, disease, and ignorance, for example-and in such common cause there is reward and glory for all". The problem is that until people take responsibility for their circumstances and stop blaming history, England and the USA for all the world ills and get on with building locally, the peace we all should aspire to; then it will require the strong armed defence of liberty and the application of the ideals of justice and human rights. As much as I respect InOBU I cant help but ask why he thinks a letter from him would make any difference to these rabid dogs? and his reference to laying all the blame back on the USA for these mindless acts of destruction. I cant help thinking that the only reason he can utter such remarks and form these opinions is that armed men and women dedicate their lives to defending him and the country that granted him the right to do so.

Subject: RE: for all who wish for war
From: Little Hawk
Date: 22 Oct 01 - 05:59 PM

What they wish for is not to "stop all the killing", but to achieve victory...on their terms and theirs only. That is what their erstwhile opponents in Al Queda and the Taliban wish for also...victory. And so it goes...tit for tit.

If you live in New York City, this obviously makes life a bit riskier than if you live in some small town that hardly anyone's heard of...kind of like being at the center of the bullseye. (Gee, doesn't it make you feel all warm and secure hearing others urging massive counterstrikes for the WTC on your behalf, Larry?)

If you live near Kabul or Kandahar, the very same problem applies. Note the flow of refugees fleeing Afghanistan.

In both cases, it is ordinary people who would just as soon go on living a quiet and harmless life who are most likely to suffer the damage inflicted by those heavily armed zealouts who are out there seeking vengeance and victory.

- LH

Subject: RE: for all who wish for war
From: InOBU
Date: 22 Oct 01 - 05:40 PM

Well, if our leaders really wish to stop all the killing, why are they proposing we send Irish illegals home without due process, rather than taking all their hidden money out of Swiss banks, and ending the practice of anonimous transactions. Fact is, they want to rape and pillage while keeping others from doing the same. I am fucking tired of it. This is not to say who ever did this terrible thing was in any way justified, just that we cannot expect to terrorise anyone back to stop them, while continuing to treat the rest of the world as our pantry while people are in need elsewhere.
Larry

Subject: RE: for all who wish for war
From: Little Hawk
Date: 22 Oct 01 - 04:31 PM

My point was a spiritual one. Depends on which level you interpret it. Do whatever you think is right and best. That's what I do. I don't wish to see anyone die unnecessarily.

- LH

Subject: RE: for all who wish for war
From: wildlone
Date: 22 Oct 01 - 03:18 PM

I think it was Thomas Hardy who wrote
"After two thousand years of mass,
We've got as far as poison gas"
dave

Subject: RE: for all who wish for war
From: GUEST
Date: 22 Oct 01 - 03:17 PM

Your point is? Little Hawk... Everyone else can die because its not me personally involved? You cannot appease tigers; and if you try, it is only in the vain hope they will eat you last.

Subject: RE: for all who wish for war
From: Little Hawk
Date: 22 Oct 01 - 02:28 PM

Nobody wants me dead. You may think someone does, but I know for a fact that it is not so. :-)

- LH

Subject: RE: for all who wish for war
From: Don Firth
Date: 22 Oct 01 - 02:26 PM

Achieving peace invariable involves compromise, and it's not easy to compromise with someone who wants you dead.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: for all who wish for war
From: Little Hawk
Date: 22 Oct 01 - 02:23 PM

We all have free will, so let each one use it in the way that seems best according to his highest concept of life.

In that way, each person can pursue his idealism to its best ends, and learn as he goes, from direct experience. We will never all agree on what is best to be done in any particular situation, but we live and learn.

When I use the phrase "to take someone out", I mean to dinner or to a movie or something pleasant like that...

So, Larry, you have my agreement on this one.

- LH

Subject: RE: for all who wish for war
From: paddymac
Date: 22 Oct 01 - 02:14 PM

Larry, my friend, I would dearly love to agree with you on the this matter, but we are not in a position to be able to extend an olive branch at the moment. We are now painfully aware that we are facing proponents of a theocratic philosophy which is fundamentally incompatible with our notions of free and democratic societies, however imperfect they may be. Our opponents presume to speak for all of Islam, but they do not. The faction that they do represent, however, is not insignificant, is every bit as vile as Hitler's fascism, and means to extirpate those who do not share their view from the earth. The only option that I see is to take them out. Period.

Subject: RE: for all who wish for war
From: DougR
Date: 22 Oct 01 - 02:08 PM

Larry, you would be doing the world a big favor if you could convince Bin Laden you are right.

DougR

Subject: for all who wish for war
From: InOBU
Date: 22 Oct 01 - 01:53 PM

A friend is writing to Bin Ladin to, as Quakers say, hold him to the light. I sent this responce to my friend, as what I would say to Mr. Bin Ladin, and those on this side who wish to settle this violently...
I have to take some time and put this more sucinctly, but, I think perhapes I would write to him Bin Ladin) on the nature of war and peace. In many thousands of years, no religion or political idea has been able to become domanent by killing enough of all the others to be the only truth, and no killings have ever been enough to balance the scales of justice, killing one to avenge the death of another. In short, after we tire of killing and hurt, we always make peace. Let us be more sensible and efficent and tire of the killing today and make peace.
Yours in God
Larry