BS: Kiss Your Civil Liberties Goodbye

Subject: RE: BS: Kiss Your Civil Liberties Goodbye
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Nov 01 - 06:22 PM

Get Real:

Remember a little firestorm which incinerated men, women and children at Waco?

And that was under a supposedly "liberal" Democrat president.

To suggest that the last half of the 20th century hasn't seen any abuses by government forces (and the long arm of their civilian paramilitary/vigilante groups), there has been plenty of violence used against civilian groups:

Kent State in Ohio Fred Hampton murders in Chicago SLA house in California MOVE house in Philly

and those are just the quick ones off the top of my head.

Subject: RE: BS: Kiss Your Civil Liberties Goodbye
From: GUEST,Fiver
Date: 02 Nov 01 - 04:50 PM

I am not sure why you are so upset with Get Real, Amos--he is certainly right--the excesses of the first part of the 20th Century certainly haven't been repeated recently. Nothing like Palmer Raids, for instance. The Civil Rights movement, and all the associated rights movements, have organized people in a way that makes it harder to violate their rights.

The common belief is that Liberals fight for Civil Rights, and Conservatives oppose them, and try to undermine them. This isn't necessarily true-- Liberals tend to advocate bigger government, which has the greater potential for attempting to control the lives of the private citizen, and Consevatives, in theory at least, believe that the governement that governs best is that the governs least. In practice, they are probably about equal when it comes to abuse--Remember the Free Speech Movement at Berkeley? Clark Kerr was it's great enemy, and he was a self-proclaimed Liberal and Progressive--Of course, it was Ronald Reagan who actually sent armed troops into the streets of Berkeley--

Subject: RE: BS: Kiss Your Civil Liberties Goodbye
From: DougR
Date: 02 Nov 01 - 02:53 PM

Never seen so many skittish folks in all my life. Yes, some of the things we have taken for granted in the past in regard to privacy is going to be history. But we have never faced the kind of challenge we face today. Before, soldiers faced each other in the field and whoever was the best shot lived. This is a war that will be fought in the shadows, not open fields.

The changes in the privacy laws were necessary to protect us. Those of you who see a "Fed" lurking behind every bush, whose only interest in life is finding something out about you are going to be pretty miserable if you don't just accept it.

Chill out. Don't break laws. Don't provide assistance to terrorists. You'll be fine.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Kiss Your Civil Liberties Goodbye
From: Amos
Date: 02 Nov 01 - 02:16 PM

GetReal:

Don't be a total jerk, buddy; facts do not enrage. How could they? I agree the ACLU has become a stronger force, and rampant abuses are less than they were in some areas. Some of these improvements are actually improvements at law. However, the growth of law has also by necessity eroded areas of personal liberty. Banking laws are an example -- if you move money around in any amounts larger than ten grand you are going on report. The whole IRS code, while never blessed as law, has been used frequently to encroach on citizen liberties.

So I think you'll find entries on both side ofthe balance sheet, over the last 200 years.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Kiss Your Civil Liberties Goodbye
From: GUEST,Kim C no cookie
Date: 02 Nov 01 - 02:06 PM

Agreed, Genie. :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Kiss Your Civil Liberties Goodbye
From: GUEST,Get real
Date: 02 Nov 01 - 02:00 PM

When was the last time that police or national guardsmen slaughtered striking workers or protesters, a common occurence in the early twentieth century. Police were once free to use deadly force to subdue suspects, especially minorities without fear of punishment.Ditto for Miranda rights as well as search and seizure. Now such incidents make the front page news. The FBI has been accused of improper behavior in recent years, but it is nothing compared to that of the Hoover administration. The ACLU is now a strong force to be reckoned with. It was a joke in the beginning. Sorry if the facts enrage you....

Subject: RE: BS: Kiss Your Civil Liberties Goodbye
From: Genie
Date: 02 Nov 01 - 01:20 PM

Kim, Nobody said you were a liberal -- only that some people (possibly in government agencies) might assume you were or might harrass you for associating with them! That's what McCarthyism was all about.

I don't disagree that we may need to modify some civil rights laws, temporarily. (Wider phone tap latitude bothers me less than secret searches, because I think the latter is far more vulnerable to abuse.)

I am glad to hear, though, that you do have some things you would like to keep personal. (I cringe when I hear someone say, smugly, that they have no need for privacy because they do nothing immoral or illegal -- that they dont care if their First Amendment rights are abridged!)

Sometimes we have to declare martial law for a while. That does not make it a hunky-dory state of affairs.

How we use our law enforcement and intelligence agencies to detect and deter terrorism is important.

(In WWII, an argument could be made for detaining Japanese Americans, as terribly unfair to them as it was. But that argument could in no way justify keeping them in squalid conditions or permanently seizing their assets!. This is just one illustration of a 'necessary' provision of War that was horribly abused!)

What bothers me about the "anti-terrorism" law is that it has the potential to make the US more vulnerable to being someday taken over by people who think like the Taliban!

Genie

Subject: RE: BS: Kiss Your Civil Liberties Goodbye
From: Amos
Date: 02 Nov 01 - 12:35 PM

Sorry, folks. Lost my temper, uncalled for slurs, etc. Post withdrawn (011102-1231P)

A.

Subject: RE: BS: Kiss Your Civil Liberties Goodbye
From: Amos
Date: 02 Nov 01 - 12:31 PM

Hey, asshole -- care to substantiate your nounless assertions with some facts? Or can't you focus on specifics in your current state? Get onto your meds schedule, man. Otherwise you might end up thinking you speak for everybody!!

A

Subject: RE: BS: Kiss Your Civil Liberties Goodbye
From: GUEST,Get real
Date: 02 Nov 01 - 12:22 PM

If any of you care to read American history, you will know that the trend has been a strengthening of rights not a suppression of them. Whatever additional powers that are granted to law enforcement will pale in contrast to what they exercised as late as the 1960s.

Subject: RE: BS: Kiss Your Civil Liberties Goodbye
From: Genie
Date: 02 Nov 01 - 12:08 PM

WYS (who ate my cookie?),
Good one:
"Last I heard, it's Power to the People, not Power to the Peephole."

Susan, that would make a great protest song. Have you (or has anyone else) written it?

Genie

Subject: RE: BS: Kiss Your Civil Liberties Goodbye
From: Genie
Date: 02 Nov 01 - 11:45 AM

Reformatted, to make it readable:

From: InOBU Date: 26-Oct-01 - 07:24 AM

I thought this might be helpful...
Larry Déjà Vu >The FBI's Assault on Civil Liberties
By Ronnie Gilbert

For the second time in my life -- at least -- a group that I belong to is being investigated by the FBI. The first was the Weavers.
The Weavers were a recording industry phenomenon. In 1950 we recorded a couple of songs from our American/World folk music repertoire, Leadbelly's "Goodnight Irene" and (ironically) the Israeli "Tzena, Tzena, Tzena" and sold millions of records for the almost-defunct record label. Folk music entered the mainstream, and the Weavers were stars.
By 1952 it was over. The record company dropped us, eager television producers stopped knocking on our door. The Weavers were on a private yet well-publicized roster of suspected entertainment industry reds. The FBI came a-calling.

This week, I just found out that Women in Black, another group of peace activists I belong to, is the subject of an FBI investigation. Women in Black is a loosely knit international network of women who vigil against violence, often silently, each group autonomous, each group focused on the particular problems of personal and state violence in its part of the world.

Because my group is composed mostly of Jewish women, we focus on the Middle East, protesting the cycle of violence and revenge in Israel and the Palestinian Territories.

The FBI is threatening my group with a Grand Jury investigation. Of what?
That we publicly call the Israeli military's occupation of the mandated Palestine lands illegal? So does the World Court and the United Nations.
That destroying hundreds of thousands of the Palestinians' olive and fruit trees, blocking roads and demolishing homes promotes hatred and terrorism in the Middle East? Even President Bush and Colin Powell have gotten around to saying so.
So what is to investigate? That some of us are in contact with activist Palestinian peace groups? This is bad?

The Jewish Women in Black of Jerusalem have stood vigil every Friday for 13 years in protest against the Occupation; Muslim women from Palestinian peace groups stand with them at every opportunity. We praise and honor them, these Jewish and Arab women who endure hatred and frequent abuse from extremists on both sides for what they do.

We are not alone in our admiration. Jerusalem Women in Black is a nominee for the 2001 Nobel Peace Prize, along with the Bosnia Women in Black, now ten years old.

If the FBI cannot or will not distinguish between groups who collude in hatred and terrorism, and peace activists who struggle in the full light of day against all forms of terrorism, we are in serious trouble.

I have seen such trouble before in my lifetime. It was called McCarthyism. In the hysterical atmosphere of the early Cold War, anyone who had signed a peace petition, who had joined an organization opposing violence or racism or had tried to raise money for the refugee children of >the Spanish Civil War, in other words who had openly advocated what was not popular at the time, was fair game.

In my case, the FBI visited The Weavers' booking agent, the recording company, my neighbors, my dentist husband's patients, my friends. In the waning of our career, the Weavers were followed down the street, accosted onstage by drunken "patriots," warned by friendly hotel employees to keep>the door open if we rehearsed in anyone's room so as not to become targets for the vice squad. It was nasty. Every two-bit local wannabe G-man joined the dragnet searching out and identifying "communist spies."

In all those self-debasing years how many spies were pulled in by that dragnet? Nary a one. Instead it pulled down thousands of teachers, union members, scientists, journalists, actors, entertainers like us, who saw our lives disrupted, our jobs, careers go down the drain, our standing in the community lost, even our children harassed. A scared population soon shut their mouths up tight.

Thus came the silence of the 1950s and early 60s, when no notable voice of reason was heard to say, "Hey, wait a minute. Look what we're doing to ourselves, to the land of the free and the home of the brave," when not one dissenting intelligence was allowed a public voice to warn against zealous foreign policies we'd later come to regret, would be regretting now, if our leaders were honest.

Today, in the wake of the worst hate crime of the millennium, a dragnet is>out for "terrorists" and we are told that certain civil liberties may have to be curtailed for our own security. Which ones? I'm curious to know. The First Amendment guarantee of freedom of speech or of the press? The right of people peaceably to assemble?
Suddenly, deja vu - haven't I been here before? Hysterical neo-McCarthyism does not equal security, never will.

The bitter lesson September 11's horrific tragedy should have taught us and our government is that only an honest re-evaluation of our foreign policies and careful, focused and intelligent intelligence work can hope to combat operations like the one that robbed all of us and their families of 6,000 decent working people. We owe the dead that, at least.
As for Women in Black, we intend to keep on keeping on.

Ronnie Gilbert is a veteran of the folk music band The Weavers and a Bay >Area civil rights organizer and peace activist.

Subject: RE: BS: Kiss Your Civil Liberties Goodbye
From: GUEST,Kim C no cookie
Date: 02 Nov 01 - 11:28 AM

Genie, at no time in my life have I ever been what anyone would even -think- of describing as "liberal." 'Course, maybe being a Gun Owner could get me suspected of something.

Anyway.... I don't disagree that there is potential for abuse. There are always people who will take advantage of a situation, and yes, we do need to pay attention to these things. Indeed, there are personal facts that some would want to keep private, and we need to be able to keep it that way.

However, as I said before, I'm not going to let it ruin my day.

I will ask again, what do we do? We have to be able to gather evidence against people who want to crash planes into buildings and such.

How do we do that?

Subject: RE: BS: Kiss Your Civil Liberties Goodbye
From: Genie
Date: 02 Nov 01 - 10:59 AM

Kim,

Don't be so sure you are not suspected (by your government) of being associated with terrorists.

[Are you a folk musician? Aren't musicians usually liberals? And aren't all liberals communists? And all communists anti-American?]

Seriously, as Lonesome EJ alluded to, our CIA and FBI, as well as local law enforcement, have in the past targeted individuals for surveillance and sometimes harrassment because of their membership in "subversive" organizations such as civil rights, feminist, and peace groups.

Kendall also pointed out one reason why a person who is not engaged in illegal or immoral activity may want privacy (a record of treatment for mental illness). There are many things one may want to keep private for personal reasons having nothing to do with immorality or illegality. Don't forget, too, that simply being detained, searched, or arrested can have devastating effects on a person who is never convicted or perhaps never even indicted for a crime! [Do you think police don't damage things when they search your property? Ever had a gung-ho customs official tear apart your luggage or car looking for contraband? And don't you think being detained can wreak havoc on your personal and professional business?]

Not only that, but there is always the chance that information gathered for legitimate purposes will get into the hands of folks outside the goverment who will abuse it, too. People do hack into government and business files.

As several of you folks have noted, extraordinary times call fo extraordinary measures. Still, we need to be vigilant against possible abuses even during "war" time. What is troublesome about our, in effect, invoking the "War Powers Act" now is that, as CatsCradle noted, there has been no declaration of war by congress.

If we were at war with, say, Afghanistan, there could be a clear end to the war. But GWB has declared "War on Terrorism" ("we are at war against evil..."), much as Reagan declared War on Drugs and Lyndon Johnson declared War on Poverty. I'm glad there is a "sunset clause," because if we had to wait until we defeated "terrorism" in the world, or worse, until we defeated "evil," we would be waiting a long time!

Good websites, Amos! And I'd like to see that chronology of the changes in our constitutional "rights," too.

Ivan B, you say Congress cannot change the constitution, only propose amendments... . Well, there is another way they can do it if they are on the same wavelength as the executive and judicial branches. Congress can pass laws (just as local governments can), and if the judicial has been stacked (by accident or design) with like-minded people, the courts can, in effect, make new law, by upholding laws which many believe violate the Constitution. Something that has been considered unconstitutional for decades suddently is constitutional. In the present scenario, given the actions of the Rehnquist Supreme Court re the "War on Drugs," I am not so sure that suits brought over conflicts of the anti-terrorism bill and the Bill of Rights would be successful.

Genie

Subject: RE: BS: Kiss Your Civil Liberties Goodbye
From: Troll
Date: 31 Oct 01 - 11:14 PM

I do not believe that it is fair to refer to GUEST Catscradle as a "weasel". He exhibits none of that animals noble and endearing qualities. That goes for GUEST as well.
Besides, weasels aren't yellow.

troll

Subject: RE: BS: Kiss Your Civil Liberties Goodbye
From: GUEST
Date: 31 Oct 01 - 06:05 PM

Right. Back in 1812 or so, we stupid Americans passed the "Alien and Sedition Acts," which were also abused. Moral: There seems to be nothing new under the sun. Best comment I have heard on this so far, from a very right-wing radio commentator whom I had no choice but to listen to: "Do you suppose that ANY of the people who jumped from the WTC were thinking, 'Well, at least I still have my rights?'"

CC

Subject: RE: BS: Kiss Your Civil Liberties Goodbye
From: GUEST
Date: 31 Oct 01 - 07:13 AM

And I note that when some of you can't contribute to the discussion with facts, you attack the messenger who brought the news.

I'm never impressed by posters who refresh a thread just to attack someone, no matter who it is--especially when the person being attacked is no longer antagonizing the situation.

Subject: RE: BS: Kiss Your Civil Liberties Goodbye
From: CaptainLewis
Date: 31 Oct 01 - 01:38 AM

Man, Catscradle has one of the worst cases of Turet's I've seen in a long time! Nice blend of semi-rational thought tho.

Kinda reminds me of a rather pathetic artist here in on a cable channel who spouts in much the same manner - but more nonsensical - in the name of art and expression, oh yeah and shock value.

Funny in a sad, egotistical, meaningless sort of way.

CLB

Subject: RE: BS: Kiss Your Civil Liberties Goodbye
From: DougR
Date: 30 Oct 01 - 08:49 PM

And a handfull of potato chips!

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Kiss Your Civil Liberties Goodbye
From: Kim C
Date: 30 Oct 01 - 05:51 PM

GUEST, to answer your question...

I believe the Bill of Rights has not yet been abolished, and still offers me and everyone else in the US some protection. Call me crazy but I have faith in this wicked ol' Great Satan of a country.

Now. Do I think there's potential for abuse? Oh sure. Am I going to let it ruin my day? Not a chance.

Have a Coke and a smile. :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Kiss Your Civil Liberties Goodbye
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Oct 01 - 05:39 PM

On Halloween Nite, Jed Marum, you, and a few others will get the name and address of a person who has been making anonymous, abusive, anti-Semitic, harassing, ocassionally threatening posts here for a long time. The only thing you have to do is go back over all the "offensive" posts and troll threads, and decide whether they really are as bad as people think--

Subject: RE: BS: Kiss Your Civil Liberties Goodbye
From: Amergin
Date: 27 Oct 01 - 06:34 PM

Personally, I think it is time for Catscradle to take a nap without milk and cookies....

Subject: RE: BS: Kiss Your Civil Liberties Goodbye
From: JedMarum
Date: 27 Oct 01 - 06:31 PM

I know who you are Catscradle (and all the other names you used in this thread). You are the little f*cker with the pencil neck. I used to kick the shit out of you in grammar school, because you were a whiney f*ckin' candy assed little weasel then, and you're a whiney f*ckin' candy assed little weasel today. In the classroom, you can "tell the teacher" on us without worries - but you'll be out in the open one day - we'll kick your ass then, just like we did to 20 years ago!

Nice to know things haven't changed, eh?? Ah Mark, you bring out the best in us!

Subject: RE: BS: Kiss Your Civil Liberties Goodbye
From: DougR
Date: 27 Oct 01 - 05:28 PM

I'm just glad you are not on my side, Catscradle.

Troll: I see your point. As someone else observed, though, I think a wait and see position is not unreasonable. I believe that if the FBI or any other agency abuses the new laws it will be found out. There are enough people int he Congress who were reluctant to change the laws to so something about it and I think they would.

I'm just not as pessimistic as others, I guess.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Kiss Your Civil Liberties Goodbye
From: GUEST,Catscradle
Date: 27 Oct 01 - 05:23 PM

So now, eejits announce they are leaving threads.

I thought that was infantile, egocentric behaviour reserved for the heels who left Mudcat in a huff.

Hope the screen door hits ya...

Subject: RE: BS: Kiss Your Civil Liberties Goodbye
From: artbrooks
Date: 27 Oct 01 - 05:10 PM

I think its time for this thread to come to a well-deserved end. My last post. Bye, all.

Subject: RE: BS: Kiss Your Civil Liberties Goodbye
From: Steve in Idaho
Date: 27 Oct 01 - 03:38 PM

I think like Big Mick said - Bye - Steve

Subject: RE: BS: Kiss Your Civil Liberties Goodbye
From: wysiwyg
Date: 27 Oct 01 - 03:09 PM

It just can't be done accurately at a distance-- reading strangers' minds. Catscradle, you've got whole scripts written for osme of us that you are "responding" to, and you're mixing arguments all together as though they are all one topic. If you ever hope to make sense with anyone here, it seems a diminishing possibility each time you post. And I have yet to see anything related to music from you... perhaps that's the trouble right there.

I have a feeling you are going to find, very soon, that no one will play. Even those of us who enjoy a little good-humored mutual sh*t-flinging, now and then, like there to be some intelligence in it.

~Susan

Subject: RE: BS: Kiss Your Civil Liberties Goodbye
From: GUEST,Catscradle
Date: 27 Oct 01 - 03:06 PM

Hope your eyes didn't fall out reading all those bad words, Amergin.

I must have overlooked that "right not to be insulted" in the Constitution.

Blame it on bad teachers and the public school system.

That's the best motherfuckerly advice I can offer to those of you whose eyeballs fall out when you read profanity, or whose ears fall off when you hear your colleagues swearing.

Perhaps you could get Norton1 to shoot me, since he is armed and humourless.

If not, I'm sure you can find someone to get the US Patriot Act amended to include nuking the homes of Internet posters you don't like.

Subject: RE: BS: Kiss Your Civil Liberties Goodbye
From: Amergin
Date: 27 Oct 01 - 03:00 PM

Catscradle, you have gotten no point across. Do your middleschool teachers tell you that once you start calling people names that their ears automatically become deaf to any thing you are trying to say? If not they should.

Oh and by the way, there is not much that I have learned in this life....but I have learned that there is no such thing as "unAmerican", save of course trodding on others' rights...and one of those rights is the right to not be insulted by a foul mouthed adolescent...

Subject: RE: BS: Kiss Your Civil Liberties Goodbye
From: GUEST,Catscradle
Date: 27 Oct 01 - 02:45 PM

Amergin, has it not occurred to you that not everyone plays by the same rules? The Politics of Polite aren't embraced by all.

In case you haven't guessed--that is one of my points, and it is sharp and barbed.

See how easy it is to tell (and how easy it was for me to flush out) who those folks are in this forum who would turn on their UnAmerican Mudcat neighbors without skipping a heartbeat?

That alone is a great public service for you.

You are most welcome.

Subject: RE: BS: Kiss Your Civil Liberties Goodbye
From: Amergin
Date: 27 Oct 01 - 02:35 PM

Catscradle...you sure are convincing everyone by insulting them...unfortunately it is also showing your age....how old are you? 12? I sure hope so...because it is rather sad if you are any older than that...

Subject: RE: BS: Kiss Your Civil Liberties Goodbye
From: GUEST,All Warm and Fuzzy
Date: 27 Oct 01 - 02:35 PM

That's right AfghansCan! You can ill afford freedom, because it costs so much!

Another $300 billion to Lockheed just last week, so we can buy bigger, better, faster, newer bombers with which we shall let Our Freedom ring all over your Landmined Fields of Tyranny, while we try and rock your Taliban and replace them with Our Moderately Repressive Regime.

UN Sanctioned and Sanctified By TWO Empires!

Subject: RE: BS: Kiss Your Civil Liberties Goodbye
From: GUEST,AfghansCan
Date: 27 Oct 01 - 02:30 PM

Yea--I too hunger for freedom...

Especially from bombs and terror, yet--

--the US only rains food down in my fields sewn with landmines...

To you generous Americans we can only say:

While you will have your freedom at any cost, Freedom is something the rest of us can ill afford.

And remember, those who don't learn from the past are Americans.

Subject: RE: BS: Kiss Your Civil Liberties Goodbye
From: GUEST,Catscradle
Date: 27 Oct 01 - 02:21 PM

Oh yes Susan, all of the above worked so well to protect the World Trade Center, after all...

America, show us your bombs!

Subject: RE: BS: Kiss Your Civil Liberties Goodbye
From: wysiwyg
Date: 27 Oct 01 - 02:11 PM

No one with sense says it "can't happen." One says, I think, "If it happens it can be dealt with summarily." One can choose not to believe and behave like a victim.

Protections?

The Vote(s).

The right to vote in elections at every level.

The dollar vote.

The vote I can cast with my feet.

My ability to write powerfully and rally people when it counts.

My alliances with others who think clearly.

My ability to give GREAT counseling sessions to leaders who can make an immediate difference.

Big Mick.

Everyone Big Mick counts as friend.

The intrinsic power of other human beings.

God's power for truth over the long term.

People's inherent hunger for freedom and their creativity in getting it and keeping it-- as individuals and as a species.

The difficulty of maintaining an expensive apparatus to oppress people in an economy we all can read and influence.

The mass media we can all tap into now to quickly sound the alarm and work around bulsh*tty barriers.

The vulnerability of rigid barriers to eminent good sense and creative action, and experience violating bad barriers many, many times in my life in many, many settings.

The ability to love people who act like complete idiots, but aren't, really, underneath, and who want what is right as much as the next human bean.

The triumph of good over evil being easier than the obverse.

My own good sense about how to communicate and maintain my own territory around myself, with others doing the same.

My MIND.

My music, and yours, all of you.

~Susan

Subject: RE: BS: Kiss Your Civil Liberties Goodbye
From: GUEST,Catscradle
Date: 27 Oct 01 - 12:30 PM

Oh, and an ARMED and HUMORLESS motherfucker to boot!

Hey! Try the link, and get your war on Norton1 you commando fool you!

Subject: RE: BS: Kiss Your Civil Liberties Goodbye
From: Steve in Idaho
Date: 27 Oct 01 - 12:14 PM

Well Guest - as to my protection? I am an armed citizen. And I have literally hundreds, if not thousands, of like minded citizens in the same manner. So until I am disarmed I'm going to protect myself in the same manner I always have. Writing and calling my representatives and senators, challenging them at every occasion, and voting.

Until then all you folks have is what you have. And calling me names and accusing me of doing immoral things to my Mom aren't doing anything except fragmenting a perfectly legal discussion of what should or should not be of concern.

Especially when you two both are clearly aware that you will never stand in front of me in the flesh and say those things. Makes you no better than the immoral cowards that attempt to take my rights away.

During the protests of the 60s and early 70s the government put shills like you two in the crowds to stir up the pot. Then when people really got going they were the ones who arrested us. As a member of the Viet Nam Veterans Against the War I was witness to this - so who are you two?

FBI looking to stir up a protest so that you can utilize these new laws to attempt to shut us down? Far as I am concerned you're just a couple of lame-assed shit stirrers with an attitude.

I've fought for this country, I've also protested every armed conflict since - with the exception of this one. The people we are after are trying to kill all of us - we are already being hit here with lots of things. Fine - we are in a war so either stand with it or be civil in your dissention with me.

Steve

Subject: RE: BS: Kiss Your Civil Liberties Goodbye
From: JedMarum
Date: 27 Oct 01 - 11:07 AM

rudeness?? the end justifies the means. No need to worry about respect for fellow human beings! No need for speaking the truth, civil liberties are at stake!

Subject: RE: BS: Kiss Your Civil Liberties Goodbye
From: GUEST,Catscradle
Date: 27 Oct 01 - 11:01 AM

And as to my rudeness, here is MY answer folks:

http://www.mnftiu.cc/mnftiu.cc/war.html

Subject: RE: BS: Kiss Your Civil Liberties Goodbye
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Oct 01 - 10:12 AM

OK, I'll bite.

What are these "protection from abuse" measures which are available to citizens and foreigners under this Act, or other US law?

Donuel? DougR? WYSIWYG? KimC? Norton1? Celtic Soul?

Can any of you tell us what legal protections we have to prevent the past abuses by the US government against ordinary citizens, which are now legendary not only in the US, but around the world?

We're waiting...

Subject: RE: BS: Kiss Your Civil Liberties Goodbye
From: GUEST,WYS (who ate my cookie?)
Date: 27 Oct 01 - 10:05 AM

Doug, would you agree that the reality is that many of us are concerned about these matters, but are thinking that it might be a wise course to keep an eye on thigs and see how they go, before sh*tting into the fan like panicked housecats? Are you spotting, like I am, an assumption that if things go badly we can't do anything about it?

Last I heard, it's Power to the People, not Power to the Peephole.

~S~

Subject: RE: BS: Kiss Your Civil Liberties Goodbye
From: Donuel
Date: 27 Oct 01 - 10:04 AM

In the abstract there are excellent arguments here. In RI 3 weeks ago 3 men of Arabic heritage were asked to leave an area on several seperate occaisions when they were video taping submarine and military ship maneuvers. They were not arrested. They had done nothing wrong.
4 weeks ago 3 arab men and one woman that had videotape exclusivly of the Sears tower were detained only because their semi truck had unsafe violations and was taken out of service by its frieght company.
Like it or not terrorists are HERE and profiling is the common sense approach to determine who is who. To detain suspects long enough to investigate quickly with new codes is the plan.
We are to sit back and see if the greater good is served. We may never know if unspeakable horror was averted by these infringments on civil liberties. But we damn well will know when they are abused.

Subject: RE: BS: Kiss Your Civil Liberties Goodbye
From: GUEST,Catscradle
Date: 27 Oct 01 - 09:14 AM

Is this so-called "libertarian" Mudcat constituency, amorphous as it seems to be, a Libertarian Party constituency, or an ACLU constituency?

By the way, both have opposed the USA PATRIOT ACT.

Libertarian Party:

http://www.lp.org/

Warrantless searches! Coming to a home or office near you SOON!

Subject: RE: BS: Kiss Your Civil Liberties Goodbye
From: Vanessa
Date: 27 Oct 01 - 01:23 AM

DougR, I'm touched at your complaisance -- and could you please extend your connections to all the citizens of the United States? Thanks ever so. I'm sure you can protect us all from mistaken searches and misused information.

Subject: RE: BS: Kiss Your Civil Liberties Goodbye
From: Troll
Date: 27 Oct 01 - 12:19 AM

Doug et.al., I am scared. I'll admit it. The past record of the FBI/BATF/CIA, is not an enviable one. The way they have abused their power when dealing with the very people they are supposed to protect is enough to scare anyone except those to whom the Govt. can do no wrong.
Now, they have been given even MORE power and -or so it seems to me- precious little oversight in how they handle it.
A talented IntelOp could send them on wild goose chases that could destroy the effectivness of the whole agency.
How?
Simple. Hack into someones computer and insert a file containing names, meetings plans etc. Then notify the FBI that something fishy is going on.
They check the computer and we're off to the races. It takes time and manpower to check something like this out. So you do it again. And again. And again. And pretty soon they're out of people to check these things out. So they request more men, more money, and more latitude in interpreting the laws.
HELLOOOO Senator McCarthy!!!!!
Yes, we need some of the things passed and signed into law today but what we DON'T need is to be complaisant about it. This new law can be a useful tool or the begining of the end for all our civil liberties. It all depends on how closely we make our representatives in Washington accountable for what happens.

troll

Subject: RE: BS: Kiss Your Civil Liberties Goodbye
From: DougR
Date: 26 Oct 01 - 11:20 PM

Nope, Vanessa, my life is crystal clear. FBI, come investigate as much as you want! It's not too late for you, Vanessa, as I said, I have connections!

Artbrooks: I haven't seen you posting before. Welcome, if you're new! This is the land of OZ, you know. Sure you want to walk the yellow brick road?

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Kiss Your Civil Liberties Goodbye
From: Vanessa
Date: 26 Oct 01 - 11:12 PM

Oh man, I come back here after 4 months and what do I find...

I'm sorry that this angry, pissy guest commentator ran through and called names, raising hackles everywhere.

But that doesn't change how dangerous this new "USA Act" is. The FBI has made so damn many mistakes -- their history is very, very bad in being able to distinguish between dissent and terrorism, on both the left and the right.

None of you have anything in your lives that you would prefer the FBI didn't find as it went secretly through your homes? None of you, really? No stacks of porn, computer files that aren't anyone's business but yours? And that doesn't even mean they'll understand what they see. I was privileged to see a friend's old FBI files (thanks to the Freedom of Information Act) and they were a tissue of misunderstandings and rumors. Got anyone who doesn't like you, someone who might trash you behind your back?

They don't even have to tell you you're under suspicion. You could be under suspicion because you're acquainted with someone who they wonder might be a terrorist and you didn't even know it. And now you are Open Season. Not just "them." You.

I just sent off a letter to my senators, telling how disappointed I was in them that they voted for this mess. Guess it's worth sending a thank-you to Feingold for being the only one who even asked that they slow down.

Yes, we need to protect ourselves, and yes, we need to have better intelligence. But goddamn it, the terrorists are *on record* as saying they're trying to make us change our lives in exactly these kinds of ways!!

Don't even try to pull a line on me about "if you were a good enough American you'd know how much we need this." I am an excellent American. I have never been as proud of my country as when I see even people like Rush Limbaugh speak out in favor of keeping civil liberties.

Subject: RE: BS: Kiss Your Civil Liberties Goodbye
From: artbrooks
Date: 26 Oct 01 - 07:34 PM

Its interesting that Catscradle's opinion of Mudcatters somehow evolved from "anti-terrorist fascists" to "lobotomized libertarians" over 24 hours. Having taken some economics and political science classes at various times in my life, I seem to recall that fascism involves private enterprise with strict government control and that libertarianism involves an absolute minimum of government control. Oh, golly, "Webster" agrees. Either he has been significantly educated in a day, or else he has no idea what the hell he's talking about...
Having met Russ FEINGOLD, I'm sure that he is comfortable with his position as the only voice of principle in the Senate. Personally, I agree with his principles in the abstract, but I agree with the others who have said (one way or another) that extraordinary circumstances require extraordinary measures. Both the Al Qaida terrorists and the assholes spreading anthrax (who may or may not be the same people) are submerged in our population. Are we supposed to tell the law enforcement people that they aren't allowed to use available means to look for them? Yes, many of these "new" rules can be used in ways that are outside the current intent. Unlike many, I don't distrust everything "the government" (whatever that means) says or does. I worked for the Federal government for 31 years, and experienced the absolute mania that Federal agencies have for protecting private information. Our county is far from perfect, but it DOES learn from its past mistakes, such as those of the McCarthy era and Roosevelt's/Earl Warren's internment of Americans of Japanese descent.

Subject: RE: BS: Kiss Your Civil Liberties Goodbye
From: DougR
Date: 26 Oct 01 - 07:10 PM

The sky is falling! The sky is falling!

Midchuck: As far as I know, none of my neighbors have asses (the four legged kind). Anyway, posing this question to me begs the question: do you think I'm really Kendall?

Now had you been referring to the two legged kind, ...perhaps.

Susan: never fear. I have connetions. You have nothing to worry about. :>)

Amergin: If you'll send me a PM or post a message that you like Bush, I'll see that you are safe too! *G*

DougR