 sj |
||
|
||
BS: Kiss Your Civil Liberties Goodbye
|
|
|
Subject: RE: BS: Kiss Your Civil Liberties Goodbye From: GUEST Date: 26 Oct 01 - 06:44 PM Seems to me the greatest folly is to believe "it can't happen here" (ever heard of the book by the same title?) Of course the musicians listed don't have ties to the Middle East. If you think that is what the US Patriot Act is about, I think you are mistaken. This act can and will be used to silence any political dissenters the Bush administration wishes to target, with impunity, for the next four years. Ask Dick Gaughan when he was allowed back into the US, after being on the State Dept's list of undesirables. Or ask how many people who's lives were destroyed by the blacklist. This is legislation that will be used to intimidate and harrass political dissenters, to keep "undesirables" out of the US by denying work visas to artists and activists, conduct smear/whisper campaigns that will be undertaken against artists and activists with private information collected under this act and leaked to the media, and be used to track people's whereabouts anywhere in the world, not just in the US. A Brave New World. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Kiss Your Civil Liberties Goodbye From: wysiwyg Date: 26 Oct 01 - 06:01 PM That's right, Amergin. Sex gods have special Protection. Consider it sort of a mystic mind-and-mail-condom... so helpful! Boundaries are so important in today's dysfunctional world. *G* ~S~ |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Kiss Your Civil Liberties Goodbye From: Kim C Date: 26 Oct 01 - 05:08 PM Yeah, but you're the Sex God, so they can't touch you. ;-) |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Kiss Your Civil Liberties Goodbye From: Amergin Date: 26 Oct 01 - 04:31 PM Sorry...but I also am concerned...I myself am on a few mailing lists in supposedly dissident circles...and since I work with computers, I may very well be in danger... perfect paranoia is perfect awareness.... |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Kiss Your Civil Liberties Goodbye From: GUEST,Celtic Soul Date: 26 Oct 01 - 04:09 PM Sheesh... That's a nice list of people, CatsCradle and GUEST. Bunches of good singers and songwriters there. But whos list is this? So far as I can tell, it's yours and yours alone. Last time I heard, none of the folkies mentioned had ties to Middle Eastern Islamic fundamentalist terrorists. To date, I have yet to hear any of them sing about freeing Islam, Allah, or killing all the infidels. BTW, if they want to come and get me, it won't be a long trip. I work in the Headquarters of one of the nations intelligence divisions. Thus far, I have gotten nothing but compliments on the folk music I play, and some serious questions about where the CD's can be purchased. But I'm going to digress a little from the "topic", and touch upon the posts themselves. Why post this stuff, CatsCradle, if you think us all a bunch of complete idiots? What do you hope to accomplish by lecturing to people you don't think capable of understanding your points? And why do you think that insulting us and calling us names will help your cause? |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Kiss Your Civil Liberties Goodbye From: wysiwyg Date: 26 Oct 01 - 04:06 PM RANT ON (At least I label mine) (good old "self-righteous bitch," yeah, that's me again) (no "proselytizing" this time, no worries) I think I get it now, and ya know, it's ABOUT EFFING TIME. This is just one in a LONG list of "Ain't It Awful?" threads. Ain't it awful this happened, and that happened, and these people are idiots, ain't it awful? (In case I missed noticing something dumb about our world, for myself-- just in case I was not looking in the sh*t but at something lovely and true) Ain't it awful how this group or that group or your group or my group has a few loudmouths who get a lot of PR? (Substitute the group of your personal axe to grind). It has nothing at all to do with a passion for something someone loves, although it hides under that cover. It passes itself off as YOU NEED TO KNOW THIS! I JUST GOTTA TELL YOU! ALERT!! ALERT!!! It's just hate-mongering. I propose that we just stick that label on, in good humor and detached cheer, whenever we spot it. Ain't it awful how some people can only say what they think in terms of Ain't it awful? See what it breeds. Now I'm doing it! Uck! It's slimy! I'm covered in it! (ALERT! ALERT! *G*G*) Thank God for music, and thank God for Threadsnot. Yes, ThreadsNot. It's the non-BS-thread filter. It's great. You can bookmark your personal page and go there first, to see if any worthwhile threads you joined in good faith have had any posts, and catch up on delightful PMs. Then you can bop over to the forum, riding the Threadsnot rails (keep mah skillet GREASY folks) and soak up the joy of music. THEN if you have time left over you can wallow in AIN'T IT AWFUL thinking, and that is nice when one has an odd moment... But only after first arming one's mind with something positive! Rant off. ~Susan |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Kiss Your Civil Liberties Goodbye From: Steve in Idaho Date: 26 Oct 01 - 03:57 PM Ah Brother Troll Should it begin neither of us will be "running from the playground crying" either. We are at war and will do what we must to perservere. I always keep in mind that freedom and safety are mutually exclusive territories and that this nation struggles with that balance more than any other I have known. I haven't been to Europe so there are some others I'm sure. Thought I'd throw that in before the UK folks disowned me!! *G* I am glad that our little provocateur (can never recall exactly how that is spelled) felt safe enough to come in our door and vent. I take it as high praise of our open and willing attitudes to put up with about anything - be it in moderation or not. The discussion is what is important - is it not Fionn? K - back to music I think. *Smilin Jack" would be proud of me. Steve |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Kiss Your Civil Liberties Goodbye From: GUEST,Pete Peterson Date: 26 Oct 01 - 03:28 PM I'm not completely sure of myself, but wasn't the Senator who voted against the bill named FEINGOLD not Rinegold? Last I looked the latter was a (still misspelled) brand of beer. . . There's a wonderful lawyer's summation where he has just destroyed an alibi on cross-examination and then says "Like the thirteenth stroke of a clock: not only in itself ridiculous, but casting into doubt all that has come before" |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Kiss Your Civil Liberties Goodbye From: Kim C Date: 26 Oct 01 - 03:23 PM Well, I don't know about the rest of y'all, but this is one little girl who don't run from the playground crying. Bring it on. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Kiss Your Civil Liberties Goodbye From: Troll Date: 26 Oct 01 - 03:01 PM Jeezis, I'm in real trouble! Utah Phillips was one of my character references when I joined the Navy in '63. They're gonna get me for sure! Actually, I am very concerned that this could become a new McCarthy eara very easily. All it would take is someone in a position of power who doesn't like a particular group and all hell will be out for noon recess. troll |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Kiss Your Civil Liberties Goodbye From: Steve in Idaho Date: 26 Oct 01 - 02:51 PM Hmmmmmmmmm - Susan you can kick me anytime *G* And for our little provocateur - - and I promised Max that I really was trying to do better in my responses to Trolls (and I don't mean my dear friend Troll in Florida) I've never, to my knowledge, had sexual intercourse with my mother, and still can't define the word fucker and what it connotes in your diatribe, so unless you are willing to come stand face to face with me and say these things - how about you just admit that your dad was Joseph McCarthy and you're filled with guilt about it. There was that better? Steve |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Kiss Your Civil Liberties Goodbye From: GUEST,Melani Date: 26 Oct 01 - 02:28 PM Gee, Doug, maybe we can arrange a witch hunt just for you. It's almost Halloween, and I wouldn't want you to feel left out of the festivities.;>) I seem to recall that censorship of mail, at least mail coming from the military, is routine in wartime as a security measure. I have no problem with extraordinary measures to protect fighting troops--they're in enough danger already. As for snooping around in my email, they're probably doing it already--certainly on this computer, since I'm at work in a national park. All NPS email goes first through a substation in Washington DC, and people get severely nailed for using it for other than official business. I am not an NPS employee, but I am using their computer. This is my coffee break time. I do have an NPS email address, and I am careful NEVER to use if for anything but business. Someday I'm probably going to get nailed for 9,000 visits to Mudcat during working hours--even if I don't post, the computer automatically records where I've been. Here in the Bay Area, Pacifica station KPFA used to often run a recording of Bill Mandel's testimony before the House Un-American Committee in the '50's. I remember hearing some of that stuff as a small child when it was happening, and everybody was pleading "5th Amendment." Bill Mandel, who was perfectly legally entitled to his poltical views, told HUAC to go to hell, and quoted the Constitution extensively. Now Bill can certainly be a bit of a fruitcake (my husband once called him "the Bay Area's leading Soviet apologist"), but in that moment, he was a true American hero. So I guess I'm not too worried about my civil liberties, because I have nothing to hide, and if they mess with me, I feel capable of defending myself and others. Maybe I'm being incredibly naive, but at least they'd know they'd been in a fight. I am not really capable of defending myself against exploding hijacked planes and mail-order anthrax, so I have to let the government deal with that. But I will certainly keep an eye on them while they do it. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Kiss Your Civil Liberties Goodbye From: Kim C Date: 26 Oct 01 - 01:48 PM What exactly do you mean by "neighbor's ass"? Do you mean the round gluteal portion of the neighbor him/herself, or said portion of the neighbor's Significant Other? Oh... you meant "donkey"? |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Kiss Your Civil Liberties Goodbye From: Midchuck Date: 26 Oct 01 - 01:38 PM DougR: The real question is, have you coveted your neighbor's ass? P. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Kiss Your Civil Liberties Goodbye From: DougR Date: 26 Oct 01 - 01:35 PM Kim: You are doomed! :>) DougR |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Kiss Your Civil Liberties Goodbye From: GUEST,Kim C no cookie Date: 26 Oct 01 - 01:08 PM Oh, and I forgot, I do own a Utah Phillips album. And about three Joan Baez CDs. Reckon I'm in BIG trouble now. And I won't even talk about Mister... he was one-a-them longhair freaks back in the 70s. And a Springsteen fan. You all know Springsteen intentionally failed his Army physical. I guess we won't be hearing from him no more either. Well, I reckon I better go to kissing. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Kiss Your Civil Liberties Goodbye From: InOBU Date: 26 Oct 01 - 01:03 PM Well most of us can tell the difference between an activist and a terrorist, but as the note from Ronnie Gilbert shows, the FBI may not be among that most who can... Cheers Larry |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Kiss Your Civil Liberties Goodbye From: GUEST,Kim C no cookie Date: 26 Oct 01 - 12:32 PM I own a bunch of Beatles records. I bet the FBI's been watching me for the last 21 years, since I bought my first Beatles album at the age of 13, only two weeks before John Lennon died. That must be what that funny noise on my cell phone was, even though it disappeared when I bought a new headset... |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Kiss Your Civil Liberties Goodbye From: MMario Date: 26 Oct 01 - 12:31 PM I think some people can't tell the difference between a terrorist and an activist. They are very different. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Kiss Your Civil Liberties Goodbye From: DougR Date: 26 Oct 01 - 12:28 PM Just behave yourself, Catscradle, and the boogieman won't get you! I'm a Republican myself, so I'm sure I won't be on any witchhunt list. Now Kendall ...that's another matter. Right on, Jed! Hey, Peg! I wondered where you had sauntered off to. I haven't seen you posting lately, and several of these threads should be enough to have your hair stand on end. DougR
|
|
Subject: RE: BS: Kiss Your Civil Liberties Goodbye From: GUEST Date: 26 Oct 01 - 12:26 PM I'm sure none of us has associated with terrorists like Ani di Franco, Holly Near, Utah Phillips, Larry Long, from the US. Or terrorists with republican and nationalist associations from Ireland... Donal Lunny, Andy Irvine, Sharon Shannon, Christy Moore, Luka Bloom... Its a long list folks. A damn long list, and I think Catscradle is dead on. If you think those of us in a safe little folk music cyber community are completely safe in light of the US Patriot Act, maybe we should think again. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Kiss Your Civil Liberties Goodbye From: guinnesschik Date: 26 Oct 01 - 10:18 AM Nice touch, Jed. Catscradle.... so? Your point is? What are YOU doing about this loss of civil liberties, besides trying to rile up a normally peaceful community of folks who have had enough infighting lately? Are you contemplating a degree in journalism? Those evil people who sit in power, trying to keep this nation from falling apart, are coming to take YOUR civil liberties first. You have alerted them to your presence. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Kiss Your Civil Liberties Goodbye From: Kim C Date: 26 Oct 01 - 10:16 AM Lookit. I am sick to death of all the complete and total bullshit that keeps getting perpetuated because of this latest international disaster. I am sick to death of being the bad guy because I'm an American, or a Christian, or a conservative, or a Southerner, or a white person... People like Catscradle are not helping the matter any by carping about this stuff, and attacking people. Yes, you are attacking people, I do happen to be a libertarian with ALL of my brain and I don't appreciate being called a motherfucker. I have fucking HAD it with all of this. As of this morning, law-abiding citizens of this country have every liberty they had yesterday, and I expect we will again tomorrow. So go screw yourself. You probably don't even live here anyway. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Kiss Your Civil Liberties Goodbye From: wysiwyg Date: 26 Oct 01 - 10:09 AM Well allright then! *G* ~Susan |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Kiss Your Civil Liberties Goodbye From: Peg Date: 26 Oct 01 - 09:38 AM Ah yes; I have always found Dick Gaughan's album "Handful of Earth" to be a fine upstanding example of tyrannical fascist propaganda... Why, I hear in some countries it is labelled "Handful of Scorched Earth."
|
|
Subject: RE: BS: Kiss Your Civil Liberties Goodbye From: GUEST,Catscradle Date: 26 Oct 01 - 09:21 AM What I see being repeated here over and over by you lobotomized libertarians, is that so long as the government takes care of you and yours, you could give a shit what happens to anybody else. Until "anybody else" becomes you or someone you know. I'm sure all of you believe there is no danger of that happening to you, because you don't associate with "terrorists". Therefore, as your pretzel logic goes, you have nothing to fear from the fascist tactics adopted by your government to police immigrants and political dissidents. Political dissidents like Pete Seeger and Ronnie Gilbert. Or Dick Gaughan. Or Joan Baez. No--I know none of you travel in circles with people who are associated with the likes of those terrorists. Or had folk musicians who might be associated with them stay in your homes, or in the homes of your friends. Or supported any of those folk musicians with your hard earned cash. No--none of you lobotomized libertarians are in any danger there. You motherfuckers just better keep your prayer chains going that the government doesn't decide to go after any of the "terrorist" folk you've all been associating yourselves with, supporting financially, befriending, etc on their lists, or maybe the FBI will be coming to visit YOU in the not too distant future. Without your knowledge, of course. And you, left with all your civil liberties and no court to defend them in. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Kiss Your Civil Liberties Goodbye From: Whistle Stop Date: 26 Oct 01 - 08:49 AM Susan, thanks for your continued efforts to promote civility. I think most of us prefer to discuss these things without resorting to name calling and other childish behavior. Any power given to the government can potentially be abused. At some points in our history (like in the 50's communist witch hunts), the US government has abused its authority pretty badly. However, most of us still prefer to have a government, and we want to give our government the tools it needs to function effectively. Naturally, we must be vigilant to make sure that our government does not misuse the tools we have given it, and trample our rights in the process. But if we go to the other extreme and render our government ineffective in dealing with the numerous threats we are facing, we stand to lose our rights at the hands of others. I guard my rights as zealously as anyone I know. I have examined the provisions of this bill, and I am comfortable that it does not, in and of itself, curtail any of my rights, or those of my fellow citizens. If there end up being problems in the implementation of the law, given the freedom we have to examine the workings of our government and communicate our concerns, I feel that we will have the ability to make the modifications that may be necessary in the future. As long as there is appropriate Congressional and judicial oversight, I want the FBI to be on the case, looking for those who would threaten my life and way of life. Denying the FBI and other law enforcement agencies the tools they need to accomplish their mission would not be in my best interests, and would ultimately lead to a diminution of the rights I currently enjoy. I have no problem with this bill. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Kiss Your Civil Liberties Goodbye From: InOBU Date: 26 Oct 01 - 07:24 AM I thought this might be helpful... Larry Déjà Vu >The FBI's Assault on Civil Liberties >By Ronnie Gilbert > >For the second time in my life -- at least -- a group that I belong to is >being investigated by the FBI. The first was the Weavers. The Weavers >were a recording industry phenomenon. In 1950 we recorded a couple of >songs from >our American/World folk music repertoire, Leadbelly's "Goodnight Irene" and >(ironically) the Israeli "Tzena, Tzena, Tzena" and sold millions of records >for the almost-defunct record label. Folk music entered the mainstream, and >the Weavers were stars. > >By 1952 it was over. The record company dropped us, eager television >producers stopped knocking on our door. The Weavers were on a private yet >well-publicized roster of suspected entertainment industry reds. The FBI >came a-calling. > >This week, I just found out that Women in Black, another group of peace >activists I belong to, is the subject of an FBI investigation. Women in >Black is a loosely knit international network of women who vigil against >violence, often silently, each group autonomous, each group focused on the >particular problems of personal and state violence in its part of the world. > >Because my group is composed mostly of Jewish women, we focus on the Middle >East, protesting the cycle of violence and revenge in Israel and the >Palestinian Territories. > >The FBI is threatening my group with a Grand Jury investigation. Of what? >That we publicly call the Israeli military's occupation of the mandated >Palestine lands illegal? So does the World Court and the United Nations. > >That destroying hundreds of thousands of the Palestinians' olive and fruit >trees, blocking roads and demolishing homes promotes hatred and >terrorism in the Middle East? Even President Bush and Colin Powell have >gotten around to saying so. So what is to investigate? That some of us are >in contact with >activist Palestinian peace groups? This is bad? > >The Jewish Women in Black of Jerusalem have stood vigil every Friday for 13 >years in protest against the Occupation; Muslim women from Palestinian peace >groups stand with them at every opportunity. We praise and honor them, these >Jewish and Arab women who endure hatred and frequent abuse from extremists >on both sides for what they do. We are not alone in our admiration. >Jerusalem Women in Black is a nominee for the 2001 Nobel Peace Prize, along >with the Bosnia Women in Black, now ten years old. > >If the FBI cannot or will not distinguish between groups who collude in >hatred and terrorism, and peace activists who struggle in the full light of >day against all forms of terrorism, we are in serious trouble. > >I have seen such trouble before in my lifetime. It was called McCarthyism. >In the hysterical atmosphere of the early Cold War, anyone who had >signed a peace petition, who had joined an organization opposing violence >or racism or had tried to raise money for the refugee children of >the Spanish Civil >War, in other words who had openly advocated what was not popular at the >time, was fair game. > >In my case, the FBI visited The Weavers' booking agent, the recording >company, my neighbors, my dentist husband's patients, my friends. In the >waning of our career, the Weavers were followed down the street, accosted >onstage by drunken "patriots", warned by friendly hotel employees to keep >the door open if we rehearsed in anyone's room so as not to become targets >for the vice squad. It was nasty. Every two-bit local wannabe G-man joined >the dragnet searching out and identifying "communist spies." > >In all those self-debasing years how many spies were pulled in by that >dragnet? Nary a one. Instead it pulled down thousands of teachers, union >members, scientists, journalists, actors, entertainers like us, who saw our >lives disrupted, our jobs, careers go down the drain, our standing in the >community lost, even our children harassed. A scared population soon shut >their mouths up tight. > >Thus came the silence of the 1950s and early 60s, when no notable voice of >reason was heard to say, "Hey, wait a minute. Look what we're doing to >ourselves, to the land of the free and the home of the brave," when not one >dissenting intelligence was allowed a public voice to warn against zealous >foreign policies we'd later come to regret, would be regretting now, if our >leaders were honest. > >Today, in the wake of the worst hate crime of the millennium, a dragnet is >out for "terrorists" and we are told that certain civil liberties may have >to be curtailed for our own security. Which ones? I'm curious to know. The >First Amendment guarantee of freedom of speech or of the press? The >right of people peaceably to assemble? Suddenly, deja vu - haven't I been >here before? Hysterical neo-McCarthyism does not equal security, never will. > >The bitter lesson September 11's horrific tragedy should have taught us and >our government is that only an honest re-evaluation of our foreign policies >and careful, focused and intelligent intelligence work can hope to combat >operations like the one that robbed all of us and their families of 6,000 >decent working people. We owe the dead that, at least. As for Women in >Black, we intend to keep on keeping on. > >Ronnie Gilbert is a veteran of the folk music band The Weavers and a Bay >Area civil rights organizer and peace activist. > |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Kiss Your Civil Liberties Goodbye From: wysiwyg Date: 26 Oct 01 - 01:47 AM Well, Doug, I find them actually pretty hard to break. For instance I used to be quite a liar-- this was many years ago. I can't lie now, at all. It just doesn't work. The lie-function appears to have been taken offline. Even when I can talk myself into one, for logic's sake, i just can;t seem to do it. It's very embarrassing-- people keep asking me what I THINK, and there I go! I think the least God could have done was teach me the lessons on tact FIRST-- but no! Gotta build that track while the train is runnning full tilt! Dang! But civil liberties are another matter entirely. They actually do follow you around! I guess it's because they have become a complex set of expectations and obligations... as soon as I try to get shut of one, it bites me in the ass and says, "Oh no you don't, I'm right here!" Take the right of free speech for instance. I TRY to keep silent (People might talk! I have a position in the community to protect! *G*) But there are all these opportunities to spill it, just BEGGING me to spew-- what can I do???? ~Susan |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Kiss Your Civil Liberties Goodbye From: DougR Date: 26 Oct 01 - 01:33 AM Oh, Susan, do you REALLY think the Ten Commandments are tough to break? Boy, I got to really concentrate not to break a couple of them! I'd say coveting thy neighbor's wife might be the most difficult except I'm surrounded by widows and divorcees. :>) DougR |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Kiss Your Civil Liberties Goodbye From: wysiwyg Date: 26 Oct 01 - 01:27 AM I tried and tried to kiss my civil liberties goodbye, this evening. They kept coming back! I couldn't get away from them to save my life! I think they're stalking me! And I thought the Ten Commandments were tough to break! ~S~ |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Kiss Your Civil Liberties Goodbye From: Ebbie Date: 26 Oct 01 - 01:17 AM "one nice thing about the new bill is that it will allow law enforcement to ferret out anonymous trolls who step over the line--" Neat touch, M.Ted! *G* Ebbie |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Kiss Your Civil Liberties Goodbye From: JedMarum Date: 25 Oct 01 - 11:49 PM GUEST/Catscradle - All this wind up just to deliver that limp piece of trash you call journalism? Give me strength! Just another lunatic passing off his anger as intelligent conversation. Go back to the beach and finish baking. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Kiss Your Civil Liberties Goodbye From: DougR Date: 25 Oct 01 - 10:12 PM Long post, Guest. Had you supplied a name I would have read it. Those of you who are so afraid of your civil liberties being trampled upon; how would you feel if the government announced that from now on, all mail sent overseas will be censored, and all mail received in this country from other countries will suffer the same fate? DougR |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Kiss Your Civil Liberties Goodbye From: GUEST Date: 25 Oct 01 - 10:00 PM Here is the story from Scripps Howard News Service: WASHINGTON - Do you use your local library's computers or a cyber-cafe to surf the Internet? If a suspected terrorist used the computer before you, the FBI can use ``sneak and peek'' warrants to collect your surfing habits and look at your e-mails. Do you rent rooms? If that quiet upstairs boarder turns out to be a suspected terrorist, you could be charged with the new crime of ``harboring'' a terrorist. Do you make a lot of large cash deposits in the bank? The CIA and other intelligence agencies will be alerted to find out if you are involved in money laundering. Those are just a few of the sweeping changes that will affect Americans under the antiterrorism bill that Congress sent to President Bush on Thursday. It vastly expands the powers of the FBI and CIA to monitor Internet surfing, intercept e-mails and look at bank transactions and other personal records of Americans just on mere suspicion that someone is involved in terrorist activities. Congressional leaders say the new law - dubbed the Uniting and Strengthening America by Providing the Appropriate Tools Required To Intercept and Obstruct Terrorism, or USA Patriot Act - closes loopholes that have allowed terrorists to operate cells in the United States like those involved in the Sept. 11 attacks. Critics, ranging from the Electronic Privacy Information Center, the Gun Owners of America and the American Civil Liberties Union, say the USA Patriot Act is so broadly drafted it could disrupt the lives of ordinary Americans. Lawmakers admitted the powers they are giving the government are extraordinary, and sought to dampen civil liberties concerns by including ``sunset'' provisions in the legislation, allowing many to exist only until Dec. 31, 2005. Some even admitted they expect the new law will cause problems. ``There will be some abuses, and if there are abuses we can reverse it. It sunsets in four years,'' said Sen. Paul Wellstone, D-Minn. In most cases, federal agents will have to get advance wiretap approval from the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court. About the only thing known publicly about the seven-member panel created in 1978 that sits secretly in the basement of the Justice Department is that it has never rejected an FBI request for a secret warrant. Open warrants, much more common, get approval in regular federal courts. Here's how the USA Patriot Act could affect your life: - The FBI is given new authority for Internet searches, and can ask the secret court for a warrant to monitor Internet activities of anyone suspected of terrorism. If that involves use of Internet connections at libraries or cyber-cafes, the FBI can collect all the e-mails and information on Internet sites visited, but would have to get another warrant to read e-mail texts of those who aren't targets of the investigation. ``The net is cast so broadly, a lot of innocent communications are caught up,'' said David Sobel, general counsel of the Electronic Privacy Information Center. - The FBI is authorized to investigate anyone believed linked either to international terrorism or someone involved in ``domestic terrorism.'' Although not thought to be directly involved in terrorism themselves, these people could be charged with ``harboring'' a suspected terrorist, or ``providing material support'' to a suspect. Anyone involved in providing assistance to a suspected terrorist, no matter how minor, is affected. - Make a deposit that a bank clerk thinks is suspicious or in violation of some state or federal law, or that involves more than $10,000, and the reports will be turned over to federal intelligence agencies, including the CIA, without any notification to you. Under a 1992 law, banks file such reports only with the Treasury Department. The USA Patriot Act allows intelligence agencies to obtain this information to track money-laundering activities. - Credit, medical and student records can be retrieved secretly by federal agencies on anyone suspected of involvement in terrorism, after approval by the secret court, regardless of state privacy laws. - The USA Patriot Act defines domestic terrorism as ``an attempt to intimidate or coerce a civilian population'' or change ``the policy of the government by intimidation or coercion.'' The American Civil Liberties Union says that definition is so broad it could cover political dissent by activists involved in protests against world trade, animal rights, or environmental concerns if police conclude their activities endanger human lives. - Using a secret warrant, the FBI can break into offices or homes to conduct secret searches. Agents don't need probable cause, just a suspicion of involvement in a crime. Laura Murphy, director of the Washington office of the American Civil Liberties Union, said that poses major Fourth Amendment search and seizure concerns. There would be no notification of what was found in the secret searches. - Immigrants and non-citizens could be detained for up to seven days before charges are filed. Those charged with immigration violations, including overstaying visas, can be deported. If their home countries refuse to take them back, they can be held indefinitely. - Information collected during grand jury proceedings could be shared by the FBI with the CIA, giving the CIA domestic information it has been restricted in the past from receiving. William Webster, a former director of both the FBI and the CIA, said that while Congress is granting very broad powers to federal agencies, there's a check requiring federal judges to review what federal agents are doing. ``I'm comfortable as long as the courts have a role to play,'' said Webster, a former judge. John Velleco, director of federal affairs for Gun Owners of America, said the government already has sufficient powers to investigate and deal with terrorists. Jeff Kerr, general counsel for People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals, said his organization is concerned that police could use the new domestic terrorism provisions against social activists. ``There's a fine line that has to be guarded very carefully here,'' he said. ``Something that is educational to one person may be coercive to someone else - a boycott, for example, against any industry. Is that intimidating and coercive?''
|
|
Subject: RE: BS: Kiss Your Civil Liberties Goodbye From: wysiwyg Date: 25 Oct 01 - 09:45 PM My description referred to a quadrant-model that was linked in a recent thread, and if I recall right most of the Liberals also were Libertarians. You know-- it had an axis, and you plotted your dot onto it. The axes were Libertarian/Authoritarian and Left/Right (or was it Liberal/Conservative)... anyhow I recall a whole BOATLOAD of people identifiying as leftie-libertarians. (Maybe all the conservatives posted after I quit reading the thread!) But on the whole, the last person I would think of as normally being willing to see civil rights eroded would be a Mudcatter. In fact in a number of recent threads, I've seen some folks I know personally, who are as aggressively libertarian as you can get, post that in these times, they favor a tightening up WITH OVERSIGHTS in place to monitor, and with stopping points built in for any measures enacted. Just because some people are not willing to post in response to a hate-monger does not mean they agree with the view of that person, or disagree with it for that matter. Some people, as our Guest may have an opportunity to learn, just will not discuss things they care about deeply with someone who cannot discuss in a civil fashion. It reminds me of a time our daughter asked me to formulate some complicated response to some psych questions. It sounded like an interesting topic and she almost got me going. Then I said, "Waiddaminnit! Is this for a class? Are you interviewing a bunch of people just to see how they react to being interviewed, or is this a real question?" Yes, she admitted, she was just collecting data on how people act in interviews, with a "cover" question as the basis. "Forget it!" I said. "You want thinking at that level from me, it's gonna cost you! This brain is not for free borrowing!" ~S~ |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Kiss Your Civil Liberties Goodbye From: GUEST Date: 25 Oct 01 - 09:15 PM The answer is yes, you've really elected a sorry bunch of assholes. Worst part of it is, you're such a sorry bunch of assholes yourselves, those politicians appear to you to be intelligent, ethical, and just defenders of your liberty because, after all, they think just like you do.
|
|
Subject: RE: BS: Kiss Your Civil Liberties Goodbye From: Mark Cohen Date: 25 Oct 01 - 09:12 PM Uh, Graham, where did you get your information that "no intelligence-gathering anywhere had picked it up"? I don't believe it, since information on a similar plan was picked up in the Philippines about two years ago, maybe more. Sorry, folks, but though I disagree with his manner I'm in agreement with Catscradle on this one. I absolutely do believe that some of my elected representatives would let that happen again (except for Patsy Mink, who voted no). I'm not naive enough to think that the government has learned anything from those affairs, except how to do it better and with more arrogance. We do still have a Constitution, but Mr. Bush and the people behind him are trying their best to ignore it, as far as I can see. Wartime necessities? The Constitution still says that Congress has the power to declare war. I'd call this a blatant power grab, and money grab---look at the billions that were just given to Ford and IBM et al in order to "stimulate the economy", with nothing given directly to the ones who actually lost their jobs. Oh, well, I don't expect anybody to agree with me, but that's the way I see it. Enough ranting, I'm going to the beach. Aloha, Mark |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Kiss Your Civil Liberties Goodbye From: Grab Date: 25 Oct 01 - 08:47 PM Interesting the way we get onto history here. I guess CatsCradle doesn't trust the US government to have learnt anything since it suspended the rights of Japanese-Americans in WW2, went after suspected Communists under McCarthy, or hammered on anti-war protesters during the Vietnam era. If you really think your elected representative would let all that happen again on his/her watch, then you're really elected a sorry bunch of assholes, haven't you? And then you think that no judge will do anything about it either? Alternatively, if you don't think that every government official is completely off their nut, you can live with it. Please do remember that 11th Sept was a bolt out of a clear sky. No intelligence-gathering anywhere had picked it up. If you've got your own opinions on how intelligence-gathering could be improved, let's hear them. You've told us plenty about what you're against, but not word one about what you're for. This doesn't help your argument. Graham. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Kiss Your Civil Liberties Goodbye From: MMario Date: 25 Oct 01 - 08:40 PM As currently private organizations, schools, business, etc can all record my phone conversations legally - I'm not too afraid of what the Feds are going to do if they tap my line and do the same. I believe it has also been ruled that the contents of e-mail are NOT covered by the statutes that give privacy to "snail-mail" |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Kiss Your Civil Liberties Goodbye From: DougR Date: 25 Oct 01 - 08:35 PM Funny, Susan! We could probably all use a little humor at this point. Guest: you obviously don't spend much time at the Mudcat. Your line, "it looks to me that the Mudcat is a forum of pretty conservative people ..." gave almost as big a laugh as Susan's last sentence did. I would describe the make-up of the Mudcat a bit different than Susan though. I'd guess: some Libertarians, lots of Liberals, and a few Conservatives. DougR |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Kiss Your Civil Liberties Goodbye From: wysiwyg Date: 25 Oct 01 - 07:53 PM One of the problems with ignoring troll-posts is that sometimes their words stand as the "factoid" on something, and the misinformation can thus become part of prevailing "wisdom" over time.
So, to correct the impression left above: Here, let's make just this a music thread: "Drop Kick Me Jesus Through the Troll-Posts of Life." ~Susan |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Kiss Your Civil Liberties Goodbye From: GUEST,Catscradle Date: 25 Oct 01 - 06:54 PM The bill has passed the Senate with only one dissenting vote--Sen. Reingold of Wisconsin. It will be on Bush's desk for signature tomorrow.n At least 66 House Reps had the guts to stand up against this. So--no need to worry about terrorists now! But just try and get a cop to answer a call when you are a victim of violent crime in Any City, USA and you may be shit of luck. They'll be guarding your politicians, CEOs of major multi-nationals, your "historic " sites, and The Sacred Mall. Nice to see everyone giving away their constitutionally protected civil rights to support fascism--those values that REALLY matter in the US.
|
|
Subject: RE: BS: Kiss Your Civil Liberties Goodbye From: GUEST Date: 25 Oct 01 - 06:06 PM Have any of you ever heard of the right of dissent from the point of view/opinion/policies of the government? That is the danger to civil liberties. If you want to change something through the conventional political process in the US, you have constitutionally protected means of disagreeing with and changing government policy, laws, even the Constitution itself. Citizen groups can and do exercise those rights all the time in the US. However, governments being what governments are, even in democracies where those rights of political dissent are protected, governments go after political dissenters illegally, and go to extraordinary lengths to silence them. That is what the McCarthy era was all about. The COINTELPRO spy ring which targeted civil rights and anti-war activists in the 1950s and 1960s,in violation of many people's civil and constitutional rights (like Martin Luther King). As someone has already pointed out, these draconian laws will do nothing to prevent domestic terrorism, and certainly won't make a dent in organized crime. So why do we need these laws? Simple. To silence political dissent, the same way the government attempted to silence it during the McCarthy era. The new Office of Homeland Security is yesterday's House UnAmerican Activities Committee. It looks to me as if Mudcat is a forum of pretty conservative people who aren't very politically aware of what is going on in the world, or in the US. The laws being railroaded through Congress right now are very dangerous to our nation's values and way of life. If you don't believe those rights constitutionally guaranteed you in the Bill of Rights to be all that important because you don't think you'll be harmed by their suspension, you might want to do a bit of history reading, just to find out what will happen when the FBI come to your door for you or a loved one. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Kiss Your Civil Liberties Goodbye From: SharonA Date: 25 Oct 01 - 05:43 PM Thank you, IvanB, for pointing that out!!! KimC, I'm guessing that, now, even the threat by an airline hijacker that he has a bomb will keep him from being rushed by the plane's passengers... now that they know that the hijacker intends to kill them anyway. Now we know we're on equal footing with them in that we have nothing to lose and everything to gain by fighting back. Were I in the situation, my only hope (since I'd have no hope for my life) would be that the plane's pieces would land harmlessly in a field, just like in Somerset County, PA. It may indeed be time to reassess our civil liberties in light of the current world situation, but I feel sure that we won't be willing to give up any freedoms unless absolutely necessary... maybe not even then! |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Kiss Your Civil Liberties Goodbye From: GUEST,Melani Date: 25 Oct 01 - 05:37 PM Since I don't knowingly hang around with terrorists, and my profile is such that I doubt I would be suspected of such, I am not too concerned about the standard sort of investigative things like wiretaps, etc. What disturbs me deeply is the news that the four suspects currently being held have been so adamantly silent that the use of strong-arm interrogation is being considered. I think there are some things we really must not do, even in the name of self-defense. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Kiss Your Civil Liberties Goodbye From: Kim C Date: 25 Oct 01 - 04:20 PM You know, you're right. There's that pesky process of ratification that can take months, even years... |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Kiss Your Civil Liberties Goodbye From: IvanB Date: 25 Oct 01 - 04:11 PM Just to be pedantic, Congress cannot change the Constitution. They can, by 2/3 vote propose amendments, which must be approved by 3/4 of the states. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Kiss Your Civil Liberties Goodbye From: M.Ted Date: 25 Oct 01 - 04:04 PM I think you've all been trolled again, likely by the same person who started the Anti-american/anti-Israeli threads which oddly came only slightly before the 9/11 assaults--one nice thing about the new bill is that it will allow law enforcement to ferret out anonymous trolls who step over the line-- |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Kiss Your Civil Liberties Goodbye From: MMario Date: 25 Oct 01 - 03:57 PM also - up until this point - hi-jacking were hi-jackings - they (the passengers) expected a hostage situation, not a kamikaze attack on a building. |