BS: PMS - the easiest excuse in the world?

Subject: PMS - the easiest excuse in the world?
From: Ed.
Date: 10 Nov 01 - 05:21 PM

OK,

I guess no female would start this thread, so my gender is self evident.

Yes, I've never experienced it, so I don't know

Yes, I've just had an arguement with my girlfriend, so I'm feeling a bit mad. I think I'm right. She knows she's right etc...

Anyhow, is PMS so bad, that you can use it as an excuse for any behavior?

Thanks

Subject: RE: BS: PMS - the easiest excuse in the world?
From: GUEST,Timbrel
Date: 10 Nov 01 - 05:34 PM

For my money, no, not ANY behavior. She's a grownup (I assume), so if she can't behave well, she should ask to be left alone until she feels better.

Subject: RE: BS: PMS - the easiest excuse in the world?
From: Allan C.
Date: 10 Nov 01 - 05:46 PM

From what I have learned, not all women are very clear about exactly when their behavior is being influenced by PMS until they reflect on it. "Why in the world did I act like that?" Then, it suddenly sinks in. "Oh! Yeah, that would explain it."

I don't believe that having PMS can excuse poor behavior; it merely explains it to some degree.

Having said that, I have to wonder how many men would use it as an excuse if it were available...

Subject: RE: BS: PMS - the easiest excuse in the world?
From: catspaw49
Date: 10 Nov 01 - 05:55 PM

I ain't gittin' involved in this one again. I was happy that when women got PMS, men got ESPN. For you guys who don't enjoy sports....tough it out. I think I like the Blake Clark approach.......Whatever Karen says, I say, "Yeah, you're right." If I pay attention I can also throw in the "I'm sorry" too. These two phrases can get you through as long as you do pay some attention. If she comes in during a race and says, "You've got to get this room cleaned up"....Yeah, you're right......."It's really a mess"...I'm sorry.

See? Works well but don't get complacent because if she walks in and says, "I look really awful in this blouse"...Yeah, you're right. Bad times there man....so pay attention and it will get better.

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: PMS - the easiest excuse in the world?
From: Amos
Date: 10 Nov 01 - 06:12 PM

Spaw's got the right idea; it is a problem in learning a communication style. If you continue to insist that an individual in the throes of a physical condition act just as rational as a person who is physically normal, you will continue to be surprised, upset, disappointed, and will build up a long history of mystifying upsets between you and your lady.

Learn to handle the communications well and your life will get a lot easier.

A

Subject: RE: BS: PMS - the easiest excuse in the world?
From: SINSULL
Date: 10 Nov 01 - 06:24 PM

Ed,
If it helps, try to picture yourself with a bad headache. All you want is to be left alone - grinding teeth, upset stomach, etc. - BUT someone keeps nagging at you. Is any behavior acceptable? No, of course not. But I do believe PMS has been used successfully as a murder defense. Not sure about headaches.
Mary, who never recognizes PMS until it is too late.

PS. Chocolate helps.

Subject: RE: BS: PMS - the easiest excuse in the world?
From: Banjer
Date: 10 Nov 01 - 06:30 PM

The only reason they call it PMS is because the term Mad Cow Disease was already assigned elsewhere.

For some women it stands for Post Menstrual Stress, for some I know it also can stand for Pre Menstual Stress and for some others the P stands for PERMANENT!

Subject: RE: BS: PMS - the easiest excuse in the world?
From: CarolC
Date: 10 Nov 01 - 06:41 PM

Men get PMS, too. They just blame it on their wives.

However, just like any other problem with body chemistry that effects behavior, there are things that can help. Usually there are hormone imbalances involved that can have real effects on the way the brain works, thus effecting behavior. The biggest one of these is estrogen dominence. Men get that problem too, but with them it's not as cyclical as with women.

There are progesterone creams available that can go a long way toward correcting this problem. Women who are peri-menepausal, or who have already experienced menepause will probably need to use an estrogen cream along with the progesterone.

Believe me when I tell you that estrogen dominence can make people act crazy. Both men and women.

Subject: RE: BS: PMS - the easiest excuse in the world?
From: Gareth
Date: 10 Nov 01 - 06:47 PM

Your correct. speaking as a former Trade Union Official PMT was the perfect excuse to get a mrmber of staff off aby charge of insubordination

Gareth

Subject: RE: BS: PMS - the easiest excuse in the world?
From: Bill D
Date: 10 Nov 01 - 06:51 PM

you mean that nervousness that occurs right before singing in public?..."Pre Minstrel Syndrome"?

Subject: RE: BS: PMS - the easiest excuse in the world?
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 10 Nov 01 - 07:01 PM

This will probably anger a number of people but all I wish for is consistency.

Either women do suffer in this way, and have problems that affect their behaviour or they don't. If the problem exists, there are clearly reasons for preferring males in certain work positions. On the other hand, if there isn't, lets not have PMS used...

Jon

Subject: RE: BS: PMS - the easiest excuse in the world?
From: catspaw49
Date: 10 Nov 01 - 07:11 PM

Gee, look at the pretty target on that shirt? Where did you get that shirt Jon?

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: PMS - the easiest excuse in the world?
From: Ed.
Date: 10 Nov 01 - 07:13 PM

Jon,

I don't think such things are so black and white (sorry if that was a racist thing to say)

It's far more complex than that...

Anyway, my girlfriend is now curled up asleep like a kitten, and I can go on the 'net all night *grin*

(please take the above in the way it was intended!)

Ed

Subject: RE: BS: PMS - the easiest excuse in the world?
From: CarolC
Date: 10 Nov 01 - 07:17 PM

Jon, see my post above. It wouldn't be any more appropriate to what you suggested than to deny people with other kinds of brain chemistry problems a job. The answer is to correct the problem to the extent that it can be corrected.

Men are affected by hormones just as much as women. The only difference is that they don't have an obvious signpost like bleeding every month to help them figure out when it's happening. Hormones are not a female problem. If they were, what do you think accounts for the fact that most violent crime is committed by men?

Subject: RE: BS: PMS - the easiest excuse in the world?
From: Linda Kelly
Date: 10 Nov 01 - 07:29 PM

OK we've established that PMS is an excuse for bad behaviour in women-so chaps- what's your excuse????

Subject: RE: BS: PMS - the easiest excuse in the world?
From: CarolC
Date: 10 Nov 01 - 07:37 PM

It looks to me like nobody is reading my posts, which is a pity, because they contain some helpful information.

Subject: RE: BS: PMS - the easiest excuse in the world?
From: Amos
Date: 10 Nov 01 - 07:39 PM

Our excuse is we're so confused by the wimmin, and we need 'em so bad and they make us so cwaaazy!!!

A

Subject: RE: BS: PMS - the easiest excuse in the world?
From: Ed.
Date: 10 Nov 01 - 07:45 PM

Carol C

Very few people appear to read other peoples posts here:

They just post their coments regardless.

I'd agree that it's a shame

Others would call it 'freedom'

But they come from America, so don't really count

Subject: RE: BS: PMS - the easiest excuse in the world?
From: CarolC
Date: 10 Nov 01 - 07:47 PM

LOL Ed. We can just talk over their heads if we want, I suppose.

Subject: RE: BS: PMS - the easiest excuse in the world?
From: Jeri
Date: 10 Nov 01 - 07:51 PM

Linda -testosterone?

It isn't black and white, and people should be judged on their individual abilities, not their sex. Some women can have very extreme PMS. Some women can have times in their lives where the problem is extreme (after childbirth, during menopause), but it's temporary. I don't know if I'd want a woman who has severe mood swings due to PMS carrying a gun any more than I'd want a very aggressive man with poor anger control to do it. Most women, if they get PMS at all, just get cranky. I don't think crankiness is incompatible with most jobs, unless you're prone to going off at the boss. (Doesn't make co-workers lives very easy, though.)

I never had any problems until I was about 36, which is when my migraines started too. I've learned to avoid situations which will make me feel worse, and I've learned to watch out for my tendency to snap at people. Sometimes the latter takes a good friend pointing out that I'm being bitchy. This also requires me to be willing to listen to those friends, no matter what sort of mood I'm in.

The fact is, it's not an excuse, but it's a reason. Those of us who occasionally have hormonal mood swings have no control over what we feel, and the feelings are the worst part. I believe those feelings are a lot more terrible than the things women say as a result. What we do, yeah, that, most of us have control over.

Subject: RE: BS: PMS - the easiest excuse in the world?
From: GUEST,Fiver
Date: 10 Nov 01 - 08:09 PM

Jon,

If you look job performance, overall, women tend to do better than men in the workplace--much more reliable than men, they work better in groups, better at problem solving--they tend to have superior manual dexterity and fine motor skills--better verbal skills, superior language comprehension--They tend to be more task oriented than status oriented(they care more about the work than the title that goes with it). And, because the job market is sexually biased, when you hire a woman, you get better education, more experience, and higher skills levels for the same money.

Subject: RE: BS: PMS - the easiest excuse in the world?
From: SINSULL
Date: 10 Nov 01 - 08:11 PM

You are a brave man, Jon. And totally logical, at least here. Guess I will keep you on my favorite Mudcat male list.
Jeri is right. Some of us have extreme PMS and are difficult to handle. I worked with a woman who burst into tears and went out into the warehouse to cry at predictable intervals. Unfortunately, she chose this as an effective modus operandi...and was fired.
Most of us have "mood swings" not nearly as noticeable as my boss' when his girlfriend refuses him. Talk about crabby!

Subject: RE: BS: PMS - the easiest excuse in the world?
From: Gypsy
Date: 10 Nov 01 - 08:26 PM

Gee, there really isn't any one all purpose label. Some women say PMwhat?! While others have depression, acute pain, etc. Can't this be case by case? I went from pain that would wake me up from a sound sleep, and last for 12 hours, to depression that lasts for 24. Doubtless, i'll outgrow this, too. Ah, for the 'pause that will refresh!

Subject: RE: BS: PMS - the easiest excuse in the world?
From: CarolC
Date: 10 Nov 01 - 08:32 PM

Gypsy,

I was in the same shape that you say you are in, 24 hours a day, every day of the month. I wanted to kill myself because I was in so much agony. I am feeling much, much better now. I can tell what I did to feel better if you would like me to.

Subject: RE: BS: PMS - the easiest excuse in the world?
From: kendall
Date: 10 Nov 01 - 10:15 PM

Tell all of us CarolC, I have read all of your posts, and, you make sense. I found that a hug, and a simple, "Sorry you are have a hard time, it must be awful." will go a long way. A soft answer turneth away wrath.

Subject: RE: BS: PMS - the easiest excuse in the world?
From: Jeri
Date: 10 Nov 01 - 10:32 PM

Kendall - truth! It's a good idea, when one person seems unreasonable, to try to be more reasonable yourself - somebody has to have their feet on the ground, or you've got a mess. There's a tendency to react first and consider the 'whys' later on.

I'm not sure if I'm talking about PMS or Mudcat...

Subject: RE: BS: PMS - the easiest excuse in the world?
From: CarolC
Date: 11 Nov 01 - 12:07 AM

Sure, kendall. By the way, your approach sounds like a good one.

This is a little complicated. I generally tend to shy away from things that are touted to do as many things as are claimed for these products. However, I have had very good results with them for a couple of years now, so I would recommend them for people to try for themselves.

We get a lot of estrogen into our systems when we eat meats (including chicken, but not fish), eggs and products containing eggs, and dairy products and foods containing dairy products. This is because the livestock that provide us with these products are given laboratory produced estrogen and other hormones.

We also get substances that act like estrogen in our bodies from a lot of the chemicals that are found in the environment these days, such as pesticides. This is because these chemicals bond with the estrogen receptors in the brain.

This creates an imbalance in the naturally occuring hormones in our bodies. This is further agravated by the decrease in certain hormones that naturally occurs with age.

For instance, as a woman ages, she produces less estrogen and progesterone. If she ingests estrogen through her diet, she will experience estrogen dominence if she doesn't also replace the progesterone that her body is no longer making.

Women need estrogen as well as progesterone. But the estrogen that is found in hormone replacement therapy as well as what is found in food products is laboratory produced and is not entirely compatible with the human body. Because of this, it frequently causes undesirable side effects.

These hormones are nothing more than chemicals. They are found naturally in forms that are compatible with the human body. When hormones are replaced with ones that come in a form that is compatible with the human body, they have the same beneficial effects as those produced by the body without the side effects.

For men, the problem is that the estrogen is antagonistic with testosterone. As men age, testosterone production in the body declines, causing the "grouchy old man" syndrome, with accompanying memory problems and loss of sex drive. However, testosterone is connected with prostate cancer, so a lot of men are not good candidates for testosterone replacement therapy.

I don't have any first hand experience with whether or not progesterone helps men with these problems, but according to this site, http://www.life-flo.com/progestacaremen.html, it does help. I would be inclined to believe it based on the success I've had with it. And men are experiencing estrogen related cancers, such as breast cancer, with increasing frequency. So the progesterone can help protect them from that as well.

These are the symptoms I was experiencing that have been reduced or eliminated with the help of a natural progesterone cream:

PMS (irritability, bloating, depression, joint and muscle pain, insomnia, restless jerky feelings in my legs, and severe emotional distress)

endometriosis (and severe abdominal pain)

ovarian cysts

I'm now supplementing with one part natural estrogen cream to two parts progesterone cream, and I'm having excellent results. In fact, I tried using them together at the same time today for the first time, and I'm experiencing a greater sense of wellbeing than I have in a long time. But everyone is different, and some experimentation is needed to find a balance that is right for each individual.

The symptoms I've been experiencing that the natural estrogen cream appears to be helping are:

hot flashes

anxiety

'brain fog'

Information about natural progesterone cream for women can be found here... http://www.life-flo.com/progestacarewomen.html.

Information about natural estrogen cream can be found here... http://www.life-flo.com/estrocare.html

This is not the only company that makes these products. It's just the one that I have a web address for.

Subject: RE: BS: PMS - the easiest excuse in the world?
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 11 Nov 01 - 12:16 AM

I read your posts Carol. If I haven't got time to read the damn thread I don't mess with it.

Ahhhh if only men had a recurring monthly thing where their pecker wilted unexpectedly for a couple of days EVERY month......they'd never make PMS jokes!

Was it Joan Rivers who said "If men menstruated it would be considered a SACREMENT not an annoyance"?

Cheers

Rick

Subject: RE: BS: PMS - the easiest excuse in the world?
From: CarolC
Date: 11 Nov 01 - 12:30 AM

Good one, Rick ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: PMS - the easiest excuse in the world?
From: Mark Clark
Date: 11 Nov 01 - 02:00 AM

My sister-in-law once asked me why it takes ten women with PMS to change a light bulb.

Her answer...

CAUSE IT JUST DOES!

      - Mark

Subject: RE: BS: PMS - the easiest excuse in the world?
From: harpgirl
Date: 11 Nov 01 - 06:04 AM

"Putting up with Men's Shit" is always a good excuse...

Subject: RE: BS: PMS - the easiest excuse in the world?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 11 Nov 01 - 06:58 AM

I read all your posts with extreme interest, Carol. It is very interesting that men suffer from these changes just as women do and it is something I was not aware of. I am aware that on occasions I am snappy, depressed, feel generaly unwell and have a host of other symptoms I cannot quite put my finger on. Fortunately it lasts a few hours, or a couple of days at the very most, and then I am back to my loveable old self;-)

I don't know if it is just me, whether it is a thing with all men or whether it is a British 'stiff upper lip' thing but I tend to keep quiet about it. In turn, when I hear people (not just women btw) complaining about PMS, depression or any other of the illnesses brought on by chemical imbalance I tend to get resentful that they have an excuse and I do not. Stupid I know but that is me all over!

I am now aware that I DO have an excuse for these bouts and I can have a good moan about feeling ill!

Thanks again, Carol. It has done my mental health no end of good and will help me empathise with those who do suffer more often than me.

Cheers

Dave the happy little Gnome

Subject: RE: BS: PMS - the easiest excuse in the world?
From: kendall
Date: 11 Nov 01 - 09:40 AM

OK, I'm 67. When do I lose my sex drive?

Subject: RE: BS: PMS - the easiest excuse in the world?
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Nov 01 - 10:14 AM

CarolC is dead on about the hormone imbalance issues, but it only tells part of the story.

There are more and more studies now showing that hormone imbalances are also present in chronic pain cases. Doctors were at first baffled by the fact that people who have severe (ie debilitating) daily chronic pain could be restored to near normal functioning with very large doses of morphine, without the addictive effects that people without chronic pain suffer.

While there are still many, many barriers to getting treatments of this sort (because doctors aren't taught pain management in medical school), it is being done now with increasing frequency.

Not all women suffer from PMS, although it is now being learned that many people suffer from other hormonal imbalances, especially thyroid, have problems which appear to mimic PMS. Because women are more at risk for this treatable hormone imbalance problem than are men, if the treatments CarolC is describing don't work, people should be tested for other hormonal imbalance illnesses.

These are some of the really subtle medical issues that medical science is just now becoming aware of--the chemical side. Treatment options are still often fairly crude, such as with chemical treatment options for some forms of depression. But others are extremely effective. As more and more research is done on what triggers violence in men (a much worse social problem than crabby women), hopefully we will soon be able to recognize the symptoms of violent behavior in men before it occurs, and find adequate treatment methods to prevent it.

Subject: RE: BS: PMS - the easiest excuse in the world?
From: Jeri
Date: 11 Nov 01 - 11:04 AM

Kendall asked "When do I lose my sex drive?"
Hard to say. As long as your clutch is in good working condition, you should be fine, (sorry).

So what about soy products? (soy beans, soy flour, tofu, etc) Don't they contain a form of plant estrogen? If so, they may contribute to the imbalance Carol C was talking about, but what if a woman doesn't eat a whole lot of animal products? Is it primarily a lack of progesterone that causes the symptoms, or can it be estrogen?

GUEST, I hadn't heard anything about chronic pain being associated with hormonal imbalances - thanks.
Most women I know are eager to find a way out of the PMS hell - the gentler, the better. Do you think violent men (when the cause is hormonal) will be as willing? I'm not debating here, but I seriously wonder how much of an attitude change will be required before society accepts treatment of male hormonal problems as reasonable.

I'm not in favor of widespread treatment just to make people 'nicer'. I think treatment only starts to look like a reasonable option when the hormonal problems affect a person's ability to enjoy life or pose a danger to others. I wonder what standard will be used to judge the latter.

Subject: RE: BS: PMS - the easiest excuse in the world?
From: harpgirl
Date: 11 Nov 01 - 11:22 AM

Guest, your explanation is incomplete. Does morphine bind with the same receptors as serotonin?

I am of the school that Scientific Materialism is a dangerous point of view to hold out as doctrine regarding human behavior( with apologies to Mark Clark). Elio Frattaroli says it better than I could however:

"The pervasive doctrine of scientific materialsim-the assumption that mind and soul are merely by-products of brain activity-makes it all too easy to persuade ourselves that there is no mind body problem, no inner conflict or self-alienation, and therefore no need to examine the inner life of the soul."

I think it is short-sighted to tout chemical solutions to behavioral/emotional difficulties. It makes us believe we can eliminate the colors of our moods(to borrow Pat's wonderful metaphor) and make everyone happy and content (and gray)!!!! Soma/fluoxetine, remorin, depacoate, neurontin, tegretol or sertraline is our modern answer to every mood swing. It's too much like the Brave New World for my tastes!

Subject: RE: BS: PMS - the easiest excuse in the world?
From: harpgirl
Date: 11 Nov 01 - 11:28 AM

...I also disagree with your belief that large doses of morphine can be utilized for chronic pain patients without the addiction that other people experience. I treat chronic pain patients in therapy frequently and they almost all utilize varying combinations of brain changing chemical solutions, and those who have used morphine for pain become very dependent on it and have trouble getting off when increasing dosages are utilized.

Subject: RE: BS: PMS - the easiest excuse in the world?
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 11 Nov 01 - 11:46 AM

Ken, when you get married again!

JUST KIDDING!!! Gawd help me!

Rick

Subject: RE: BS: PMS - the easiest excuse in the world?
From: kendall
Date: 11 Nov 01 - 01:03 PM

I read somewhere that there are certain foods that kill a womans libido. The worst of them is wedding cake.

Subject: RE: BS: PMS - the easiest excuse in the world?
From: JudeL
Date: 11 Nov 01 - 01:55 PM

Chemicals may not be a substitute for dealing with problems and may not provide a solution for emotional problems, nor am I saying that every emotional imbalance is because of a hormonal imbalance but sometimes recognising that you are acting "out of character" and that this has a recognisable pattern can help you be prepared for it such that you don't say and do things that you normally wouldn't. For some women chemicals can help especially in terms of rebalancing the system. e.g. some women find that they suffer mild anaemia once a month causing loss of energy and the irritability of tiredness and by taking iron tablets at the apt time can help avoid the problem . I stress that everyone is different - and what works for one person at one stage of their life may not necessarily work for someone else. (BTW chocolate is a delicious source of iron)
Jude

Subject: RE: BS: PMS - the easiest excuse in the world?
From: AllisonA(Animaterra)
Date: 11 Nov 01 - 02:00 PM

Iron?? IRON????? That's it! I'm not getting enough chocolate, that's why I'm borderline anemic most of the time!

Subject: RE: BS: PMS - the easiest excuse in the world?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 11 Nov 01 - 02:02 PM

This whole thread is based on a false premise. The easiest excuse in the world is patriotism...

(Zing! Ducking and running....)

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: PMS - the easiest excuse in the world?
From: Bill D
Date: 11 Nov 01 - 03:43 PM

I have known women who suffered from PMS and women who barely noticed it...it seems to be just the luck of the draw...but if the discomforts I saw evidence of were HALF as bad as they said, I would sympathize and tolerate a LOT of moody behavior! No one would choose to feel that way, and they should be cut some seriour slack!

As to men...if testosterone levels were diminished, where would we get soldiers to fight our wars and......oh...hmmmm.....

Subject: RE: BS: PMS - the easiest excuse in the world?
From: Jeri
Date: 11 Nov 01 - 04:38 PM

Bill, testosterone doesn't have much to do with fighting wars. Starting fights in bars, maybe, but fighting in wars on a recurring basis requires a degree of self-control...except in the movies - "HOOOAH!" and all that. The angry, gung-ho, macho types are probably among the first to do something stupid and get killed.

Subject: RE: BS: PMS - the easiest excuse in the world?
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Nov 01 - 06:47 PM

Harpgirl,

I am not talking about chronic pain patients getting off their morphine medication. I am talking about chronic pain patients being on morphine for life. I am talking about chronic pain associated with permanent physical disabilities.

The management of pain, whether chronic due to a physical disability, or associated with terminal illness, is currently undergoing some dramatic changes in the medical profession. There is much more resistance to treating chronic pain patients with morphine than terminal illness patients, because the medical profession isn't concerned with addiction for terminally ill patients.

As to chronic pain management, well of course a chronic pain patient is going to have extreme difficulties when their pain medication, which has allowed them to function at near normal capacity, when the medication is withdrawn.

Question is, if it works so effectively, why take a chronic pain patient off the medication?

Answer: medical professionals paranoia about addiction, rather than their commitment to helping their patients lead the best quality of life possible for them, which likely includes morphine for pain management.

Subject: RE: BS: PMS - the easiest excuse in the world?
From: Bill D
Date: 11 Nov 01 - 07:14 PM

yeah, I guess so, Jeri...after all, wars are often encouraged most by the older men with power needs...(but the world could do with fewer bar fights, too)_

Subject: RE: BS: PMS - the easiest excuse in the world?
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 11 Nov 01 - 07:17 PM

PMS just happen to be my initials - when I'm not being TB. I wanted to get a car with a PMS registration (quite easy if you live in Falkirk!), but I had to settle for WWD - Wild Woman Driver! (with or without PMS!) Tattie B

Subject: RE: BS: PMS - the easiest excuse in the world?
From: Celtic Soul
Date: 11 Nov 01 - 07:26 PM

Did your girlfriend *say* she was having PMS? Or does she merely think she has a point in the argument?

On the note of PMS, you simply have *no* idea. I wish every male could somehow get a Doc to inject them with too much testosterone, and then see how they react. Usually, that imbalance occurs naturally for men fairly rarely, but it *does* many times involve quick tempers and lots more aggression than would otherwise occur.

When your hormones are out of balance, you simply cannot know in the moment that what you are feeling is not situational. Again, you simply can't know what that is like for a woman unless you have been there.

However, if the circumstance is that you are assuming PMS, and she simply feels she has a point, then it is you who is blaming it on PMS, not her. Sometimes, women get upset because their men are acting poorly, and sometimes their men say "What, are you on the rag?".

Subject: RE: BS: PMS - the easiest excuse in the world?
From: CarolC
Date: 11 Nov 01 - 07:31 PM

Way to go, Dave the Gnome!

kendall, I couldn't tell you the answer to that ("when do I lose my sex drive"), but I'm guessing that the loss or reduction of sex drive, if any, probably varies from one individual to another.

About using chemicals to change behavior... PMS is about suffering first, and behavior second. The reason for aleviating the symptoms of PMS is to reduce the suffering.

However, as with the woman SINSULL mentioned much earlier in this thread who lost her job because of PMS, sometimes the behaviors that can arise from the suffering associated with PMS can wreak havoc with a person's life. If that can be corrected, I can't imagine why a person wouldn't want to do it.

Jeri... yes, soy products do contain chemicals that the body processes into estrogen. Soy can be a very healthy source of estrogen for those of us who need to replace it during peri-menepause, or after menepause, but can also contribute to PMS if progesterone is not also suplemented. If I eat soy products, I supplement my progesterone in the same way that I would when I use the estrogen cream. If I don't, I start getting PMS symptoms.

Re: your question about women who don't use very many dairy products, eggs or meat, but who still experience PMS... in my case, I use very few dairy products. But I can get a wicked case of PMS just by using commercial grade mayonaise even as few as three or four times in a month. I'm unusually sensitive, but I think there are probably other women who are as sensitive as me.

Dairy products and eggs are found in a lot of places where people don't really think about them, mayonaise being one example. Also things like dips for veggies or potato chips, some salad dressings, cole-slaw, potato salad, products containing butter, and baked goods that contain eggs, such as cakes or brownies.

Aso, alcohol can have an estrogen-like effect on the body.

Subject: RE: BS: PMS - the easiest excuse in the world?
From: Celtic Soul
Date: 11 Nov 01 - 07:39 PM

To add to CarolC's advice on how to control it, there is another herbal remedy out there as well. I swear by this stuff.

Chaste Tree Berry extract.

Here's a little snippet from a page on the subject: "It is fairly certain that one mode of action for chaste tree berry is through neurotransmitters, interacting with hormone receptors to initiate a reaction in the pituitary to lower and adjust the production of prolactin. Both black cohosh and chaste tree berry appear to promote mild relaxation".

It is not merely the predominance of estrogen that causes PMS, it is overproduction of prolactin which inhibits the production of progesterone that causes the estrogen to *be* in predominance. If you stop the prolactin from being overproduced, then the bodies natural progesterone will come back into better balance.