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No presents on Christmas?
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Subject: NO PRESENTS ON CHRISTMAS? From: Jeep man Date: 15 Dec 01 - 06:27 PM How would Christians observe the birth of Christ, if exchanging presents was not involved? No I'm not a born again Heathen. I have my own notions about it, what are yours. Jeepster |
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Subject: RE: NO PRESENTS ON CHRISTMAS? From: DougR Date: 15 Dec 01 - 06:31 PM I don't think exchanging gifts has much to do with the birth of Christ, myself. That is the commercial twist to Christmas. DougR |
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Subject: RE: NO PRESENTS ON CHRISTMAS? From: Jeep man Date: 15 Dec 01 - 06:41 PM Doug, you may be on the right track?? J |
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Subject: RE: NO PRESENTS ON CHRISTMAS? From: Gary T Date: 15 Dec 01 - 07:19 PM Gift exchanging--and gift buying!--have certainly grown into a big deal, and big business. However, my understanding is that it is based on the Magi bringing gifts to the baby Jesus. It's not just merchants hawking their wares. While the birth of Christ is of importance to Christians, His resurrection is where the real significance lies. Easter is the holiday with the deeper religious meaning. |
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Subject: RE: NO PRESENTS ON CHRISTMAS? From: Liz the Squeak Date: 15 Dec 01 - 07:31 PM Giving presents actually goes back to the Romans, presents called Strenae were exchanged at the festival of the Kalends, corresponding to 1st January. The gifts were boughs of evergreens picked from the grove of Strenia, cakes and honey, representing a new year full of sweetness, and gold, that the year would bring prosperity. The Emperor issued an edict which stated that he MUST be given gifts at Kalends by the high ranking officials of the Imperial Administration. Gifts of fruit and nuts, small toys and useful things came in much later, with the Kriss Kringle legend. So presents predate Christianity - but not by much! Originally, presents were shared out on Boxing day, the day the box for the poor & sick was opened in the church. LTS & knowitall |
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Subject: RE: NO PRESENTS ON CHRISTMAS? From: Mudlark Date: 15 Dec 01 - 08:24 PM I thot Boxing day was originally the day that presents were given to tradesmen, like one's postman/person...but what do I know. (I DID know it had nothing to do with pugilism) |
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Subject: RE: NO PRESENTS ON CHRISTMAS? From: Mudlark Date: 15 Dec 01 - 08:26 PM Well....technically a postal clerk is not a tradesman, I guess....rather a service person....anyway a day to give gifts to people who serve in some way or another, as thanks...and possibly a bribe for good treatment in the coming year? |
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Subject: RE: NO PRESENTS ON CHRISTMAS? From: Amergin Date: 15 Dec 01 - 08:35 PM actually the way i understand it is no one really knows for sure where Boxing Day came from....interesting article at snopes about it... |
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Subject: RE: NO PRESENTS ON CHRISTMAS? From: AllisonA(Animaterra) Date: 15 Dec 01 - 10:45 PM I also think that gift giving got a boost from the St. Nicholas legend. He supposedly threw bags of gold down the chimneys of young women who were at risk of being sold into prostitution for lack of dowry. |
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Subject: RE: NO PRESENTS ON CHRISTMAS? From: Genie Date: 16 Dec 01 - 01:21 AM Here is a thread you may find interesting if you would like to see Christmas less commercialized and the gift giving more meaningful. Genie |
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Subject: RE: NO PRESENTS ON CHRISTMAS? From: catspaw49 Date: 16 Dec 01 - 01:48 AM "How would Christians observe the birth of Christ, if exchanging presents was not involved?" I think Christian people observe Christmas in many ways now that don't involve gifts at all. In their Eve services and midnight mass, in reading the words from the Bible that tell the story of not only Christ's birth, but the lesson of his life, and of course in song. This would be there and theirs with or without gifts. Spaw...Resident Agnostic |
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Subject: RE: NO PRESENTS ON CHRISTMAS? From: Genie Date: 16 Dec 01 - 02:39 AM If Christmas were celebrated as a religious holiday--celebration of the birth of the Messiah--rather than an opportunity for selling, there would be few Christmas carols sung or cards sent until Christmas day and many sung/sent for weeks afterwards! When someone has a new baby, there may be a shower or two, but most of the cards and rejoicing come after the birth. We don't have months of promotions for the new baby and then stop all celebration by 2PM on the day of his/her birth! With Christmas in our time, though, even the churches refrain from doing "Christmas carols" after Christmas day (even when Dec. 26 is a Sunday) and make little mention of Jesus's birth except during the weeks preceding Christmas. Probably unwittingly, the churches themselves have bought into the Madison Ave. timetable -- decorate, do pageants, sing, have parties and talk about "Christmas" for weeks prior to and including Christmas Eve, and then view the whole thing as "sooo last week!" as soon as it's Dec. 25 or 26th. |
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Subject: RE: NO PRESENTS ON CHRISTMAS? From: GUEST Date: 16 Dec 01 - 10:39 AM Gift giving is a common ritual custom in most cultures, although not specifically related to religious ritual. Common gift giving rituals take place at significant stages in life, like birth, marriage, and death. Because most societies which constitute "Western culture" are now rooted in capitalist customs regarding gift-giving, (ie, not just gifts at the time of birth of a child, but throughout one's lifetime), and new "holiday" gift giving rituals are being added all the time (like Valentine's Day, Mother & Father's Day, etc), it is to a certain extent "commercial" I suppose. But in a capitalist society like ours, it has more to do with social status than anything else. Hence the belief that people who are not able to participate in the capitalist ritual of gift giving at this time of year, must become charity cases, and we see this tremendously offensive effort (in my mind it is offensive, that is) to "donate" to the "Toys for Tots" and other once a year charity drives to provide poor people with consumer goods they really don't need, while filling the capitalist coffers and buying off the social consciences of the millions of people who donate to this gift giving debacle at Christmas, while ignoring the genuine needs of the poor the rest of the year. We are seeing the same phenomenon take place now with the obscene amounts of money raised for families of 9/11. Families of NYC firefighters are said now to be getting a million dollars each, while the poorest victims families have seen little to no money. We Americans sure do get our priorities screwed up when it comes to acting out our guilty consciences, IMO. |
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Subject: RE: NO PRESENTS ON CHRISTMAS? From: Gary T Date: 16 Dec 01 - 02:53 PM Good points, GUEST. |
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Subject: RE: NO PRESENTS ON CHRISTMAS? From: Amos Date: 16 Dec 01 - 04:06 PM A small thanks sent out for a coherent post intended to communicate even from an anonymouse. A. |
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Subject: RE: NO PRESENTS ON CHRISTMAS? From: GUEST,Desdemona Date: 16 Dec 01 - 04:12 PM In late mediaeval, Tudor and right into Jacobean times, the custom seems to have been to give New Year's rather than Christmas gifts, even though in those days they reckoned the new calendar year as beginning on Lady Day, March 25! |
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Subject: RE: NO PRESENTS ON CHRISTMAS? From: CapriUni Date: 16 Dec 01 - 05:47 PM When I was in high school, the Latin teacher once organized an afternoon where all the Latin students in the school (grades 5 through 12 -- it was a small school ;-)) got together and recreated some of the rituals of an ancient Roman Saturnalia. It started when the student playing the part of the priest carried in a tree to the altar and decorated it. Then he gave the benediction (In Latin, and it was some 20 years ago, so don't ask me what the words were!) Then a teacher came in dressed in long yellow robes and a long white beard, and wearing chains around his wrists and ankles. He represented the god Saturn, who ruled over creation during the Golden Age of mankind, before we suffered with war, hatred and poverty, and was later banished from Olympus by his successor. He gave a speech (again, in Latin) with the gist that he hoped humanity would recreate the Golden Age of mankind and live in peace with each other during his visit (During the seven days of Saturnalia, slaves were freed, and served by their masters, crimes were pardoned and gifts of food were given). Then the priest stepped forward and broke Saturn's chains (in this case they were made of paper) and the God Saturn stepped forth, and passed out sweet cookies shaped like himself to the assembled guests. ... The teacher couldn't get her hands on actual Saturn cookies, of course, so she substituted Santa cookies ;-). Then we broke off for a lunch of Italian food, while the different classes put on skits of various Roman myths... It was a fun day. Anyway, this shows me that gift giving has always been part of winter festivals, even if it hasn't always been so expensive. And I agree with Genie -- I think it makes much more sense to spread the giving out over several days *after* the starting holiday. For one thing, it helps ease the post-Christmas blues (I don't celebrate Christmas, myself. I'm a solstice-honorer. But my favorite thing about "The Season" is all the specials on TV -- even with regular shows getting into the 'spirit'. It's the one time of year when adults are allowed to be sentimental and believe in magic without being scorned. But on Dec. 26, popular culture swings back to its old cynical self |
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Subject: RE: NO PRESENTS ON CHRISTMAS? From: Gypsy Date: 16 Dec 01 - 08:42 PM Oh please. If you want Christmas to be commercial, it is. But don't paste that label on every Christian! Yes, we exchange gifts. But we also: Deliver food to our neighbours, firewood, visit the sick, the old, and the infirm. And, of course, we do it year round. It just gets noticed more in December. On Tuesday of this week, our church is giving food to 88 families. And singing, and praying. What are YOU doing? |
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Subject: RE: NO PRESENTS ON CHRISTMAS? From: Pseudolus Date: 17 Dec 01 - 04:14 PM Genie, You should come to our church!! Yeah, there's a lot of music and celebration before the "big day" but we will continue to sing and celebrate straight through into the new year!! I agree with you that it seems like it is over as soon as the last piece of torn paper goes into the garbage and many churches stop the Christmas carols right away and that is sad. I mean, if you believe, then celebrate for all you're worth! My wife is Lutheran and I am a Catholic and the "Contemporary Praise Choir" (as they like to call us) we sing with is at a Methodist Church! As I get older I like to cover all my bases ya know, just in case. *BG* The Saturday between Christmas and New Year's will most likely have a full slate of carols!! Frank
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Subject: RE: NO PRESENTS ON CHRISTMAS? From: Kim C Date: 17 Dec 01 - 05:57 PM I'll tell you the one thing I REALLY hate, and that is all the jewelry commercials that insist Jewelry Is What Women Want. Jewelry my husband has ever bought me: a wedding ring, two pairs of earrings, one necklace, one silver-plated charm bracelet, two pewter pendants. The ring, of course, was the most expensive - everything else was under $40. My favorite (besides the ring)? The silverplated cowboy charm bracelet, which cost a whopping $3.50 at the Buffalo Bill Historical Center. So there. :-P |
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Subject: RE: NO PRESENTS ON CHRISTMAS? From: Burke Date: 17 Dec 01 - 07:09 PM I live a long way from my family. The biggest part of my Christmas is just getting to where other members of my family are. We visit. We eat. We go to church. We play cards. I spend time with the nieces & nephews. We work the Christmas puzzle. I get together with my friends 'back home.' Attend a performance of the Nutcracker or Scrooge. Watch Miracle on 34th St. Listen to the Christmas CD's. Make cookies. Eat a lot. Make cookies. It's a lot about connecting with people in all kinds of ways, including the gifts.
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Subject: RE: NO PRESENTS ON CHRISTMAS? From: GUEST,Genie (Left My Cookie Out For Santa) Date: 22 Dec 01 - 04:42 AM What am I (are we) doing, Gypsy? Well, for one thing, I have asked my friends and family to make contributions to environmental and charitable organizations (e.g., hunger relief in Afghanistan, Brazilian rainforest protection, solar-powered computers for students in Central America, Doctors Without Borders, etc.) instead of material presents to me -- for both birthday and Christmas--, and I have begun making my 'gifts' to others in similar fashion. " My church and I are involved year-round in activities to benefit homeless folks, street kids, peace action, environmental protection, and hunger relief. The point I was making earlier (about commercialism contaminating Christians' celebration of Christmas) was primarily about the fact that our timetable of formal celebration of "Jesus's birthday" corresponds more closely to a retailer's calendar than to the way we would act if we were first anitipating, then celebrating the birth of a special baby. Yeah, it really irks me to go to church on Dec. 26 and hear no songs about "our Savior's birth," after having heard them ever since Dec. 1! Even the churches contribute this way to "post-Christmas depression," by acting as if, since the official (and commercial) holiday is over, there is no longer any reason to sing about the baby Jesus and the miracle of his birth. (Pseudolus, I'm delighted to hear that your church has not bought into this trend!) Genie |
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Subject: RE: NO PRESENTS ON CHRISTMAS? From: CapriUni Date: 22 Dec 01 - 11:54 AM Genie (and everyone else here) -- ever thought of bringing back (in your own lives, if not in the church) the "Twelves days of Christmas"? I don't have a family, yet. But I'm seriously thinking about it when I do, especially if I have kids to help them ease out of the holiday as they go back to school... One of the things that always depressed me, a little: When I left for the holiday break, the school would be bedecked with red and green and stars from top to bottom, but the walls would be bare when I got back... How drab! Another thing that irks me about commercial Christmas is the association of snow with the holiday -- even in Southern Virginia! What's wrong with celebrating *your* home for the holidays?! (it's not like Mary and Joseph had a white Christmas) Why not decorate Christmas tree in the mall with miniature bicycles instead of sleds? Why do we pray for snow on December 24th, and curse it after the 26th? Okay, that's the end of my rant... |
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Subject: RE: NO PRESENTS ON CHRISTMAS? From: Genie Date: 22 Dec 01 - 12:21 PM CapriUni, "Mele Kalikimaka" is the thing to say on a bright Hawaiian Christmas Day. That's the island greeting that we send to you from the land where palm trees sway. Here we know that Christmas will be green and bright, Sun will shine by day and all the stars by night. ... Just to let you know there are songs about Christmas that don't mention snow. (I do get a lot of requests for "Jingle Bells" when I do Christmas programs down here in San Diego, though. One of the up sides of doing gigs at retirement and nursing homes and senior centers is that the folks are still into Christmas music at least until New Year's Eve, so I get to keep my Christmas repertoire going a bit longer.) A related rant: G |
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Subject: RE: NO PRESENTS ON CHRISTMAS? From: CapriUni Date: 22 Dec 01 - 12:54 PM Genie -- Re: "Jingle bells" etc. no longer being played after December 26th: I've wondered the same thing ever since I was about 5 -- okay, maybe 6!
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Subject: RE: NO PRESENTS ON CHRISTMAS? From: Amos Date: 22 Dec 01 - 01:22 PM One does not, traditionally, go dashing through the snow in a one-horse open sleigh in other seasons. Nor to grandmother's house! :>))_ Actually we love going o Grandmother's house and do it several times a year! |
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Subject: RE: NO PRESENTS ON CHRISTMAS? From: CapriUni Date: 22 Dec 01 - 02:33 PM Amos -- for all of my nearly 39 years, I've seen far more snow in late January and February than in December... I am much more likely to go "Dashing in a one horse sleigh" on Valentine's Day than I am on Christmas... (and since the second verse tells how the horse spooked and tipped the sleigh over, leaving the two courters inside to snuggle up with nowhere to go, it'd make a fine Vantine's Day song) |
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Subject: RE: NO PRESENTS ON CHRISTMAS? From: Genie Date: 23 Dec 01 - 02:18 AM Actually, Amos, when was the last time anyone in San Diego went dashing through the snow in a one-horse open sleigh at any time of year? For that matter, aren't sleighs in the US kind of relegated to theme parks now, no matter what part of the country you live in? (In Alaska, it would be a dog sled.) No, "Jingle Bells" was written at a time when people used sleighs for normal winter transport and fun. Someone told me, in fact, that it was not associated with Christmas until a few decades ago (though the original song is from about 1850). When I lived in Urbana-Champagne, Illinois, though, I could've used a one-horse sleigh in January! Genie |
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Subject: RE: NO PRESENTS ON CHRISTMAS? From: Celtic Soul Date: 23 Dec 01 - 10:26 AM Oh easy! For me, it would be Caroling and contributing any earnings to Childrens Hospital, listening to holiday concerts, and a nice big meal with family! All of which I have done, admittedly *with* the present thing intact, but still. I really think that, especially as I am not a kid any longer, these other things actually mean more to me than the exchange of presents. The song "Emanuel" brings me to tears whenever I hear it. That to me is more of what X-mas is supposed to be about. |
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Subject: RE: NO PRESENTS ON CHRISTMAS? From: CapriUni Date: 23 Dec 01 - 12:37 PM There is a song in the Digital Tradition database, which, the notes say, dates from the 17th century, and which describes how the twelve days of Christmas were celebrated back then. Clicking here will lead you right to it. Singing and partying, putting on pageants and pantomimes (and other activities of a more ribald nature) seems to be the gist. I seem to remember reading somewhere (but I can't find it after a quick search of where I thought I'd read it -- maybe I heard it on a PBS documentary, or something) that the tradition of staying home in the bosom of your family -- behind closed doors -- began in the Victorian era, when the idea of members of the working classes going from door to door, singing loudly and demanding drink and money (as in the Gloucestershire Wassail) was a threat to the rising middle class. As I understand it, it was then that the extravengance of Christmas was turned from activities (singing, dancing, eating, etc.) to material goods. No doubt the merchant class, who made up a good portion of the aforementioned middle classes, had a lot to do with that. Personally, I wish the tradition of visiting neighbors on Christmas would come back, and live singing, rather than having a christmas record playing as 'background music.' But I use a wheelchair, and can't get to any of my neighbors' doors to ring the doorbell myself, or I would -- with a song in my throat and my arms ready to hug.... Oh well... |
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Subject: RE: NO PRESENTS ON CHRISTMAS? From: Cappuccino Date: 23 Dec 01 - 02:12 PM I think you might have enjoyed the muzak version of Jingle Bells I heard in a store today. It took me a few minutes to realise what was strange... it was a Daniel O'Donnel kind of singer doing the chorus. And after I had counted fourteen chorusses in a row, I realised that he never once sang the verse!!!! - Ian B |
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Subject: RE: NO PRESENTS ON CHRISTMAS? From: Genie Date: 23 Dec 01 - 03:02 PM The Alternative Gift market has been mentioned in several threads. One of the main "gifts" that many of us in our church gave (in the name of our friends and relatives) this year was hunger relief for Afghanistan (a chilren's rescue caravan). I believe that was one of the several charitable gifts for which there were matching funds donated. It's not to late to give this kind of gift to anyone on your list. You can send them an e-card to tell them about what you've "bought" them. (You can still give material gifts, too, if--as I do--you enjoy finding special presents for special friends.) Genie |
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Subject: RE: NO PRESENTS ON CHRISTMAS? From: wysiwyg Date: 23 Dec 01 - 03:23 PM Hey, gang, help me out. We have a Christmas package to deliver this year that is a little sensitive-- the family is worried that we have done too much for them this year, but then someone ELSE came along and offered a Christas pacakge, and no on else needed one!!!! So I said we'd direct it to this family. Here is the letter I drafted to go with its anonymous delivery-- complicated by the fact they they WILL figure out we had something to do with it because we have to babysit for them while getting them out of the house to deliver it! The following appears under a clipart of Santa's Workshop.... (names are deleted here in case they join Mudcat!) What do you think? ======================================= Santa's Workshop r The North Pole December 23, 2001 Dear Mr. V, Santa Claus is gonna get real mad at me if you tell him what I did! Some of the elves were talking the other day, while Santa was off on his lunch break. They were saying that you probably wouldn't get a chance to do much Christmas shopping this year, with the new baby in the house and all.... you named him xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx, right? Well, anyway, they said you didn't believe in Santa Claus any more either, so you probably wouldn't see any presents if Santa left them for you--- you like to be Santa yourself. Well anyway! The elves didn't know WHAT to do! And I got tired of hearing them go around and around about it! So I got a coupla things for you to give your family! I snuck 'em out of stock, while the elves were cleaning up reindeer poop! Hah hahhh! I may only be an apprentice but I wasn't born yesterday! They didn't see a thing! Anyway there are some gift tags in this package so you can put down that the presents are from you. I hope that's OK. I tried hard to get good things—I hope everyone likes them!--- but I couldn't steal the sleigh to take you to WalMart's myself! (There is only so much an apprentice can get away with!) Remember, now, not a word about this to ANYONE! Santa's spies are everywhere, and he gets REAL MAD when we don't ask him for permission! ~An Apprentice Elf |
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Subject: RE: NO PRESENTS ON CHRISTMAS? From: Hawker Date: 23 Dec 01 - 06:26 PM I am a Christian, I think if there were no tradition for giving presents I would start one! I LOVE giving people presents, I really enjoy looking for that special gift for someone and I get a real thrill out of making people happy - I made most of my presents last year and I make a large proportion of my Christmas Cards. I do not expect gifts, and rarely give frivolities, rather giving something of use or which is needed I do hate the commercialism that the shops make of this time, my pet hate is the TV adverts during kids TV for the 4 months preceeding Christmas! Hope you are blessed with all the gifts of a happy life this Christmas, Lucy |
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Subject: RE: NO PRESENTS ON CHRISTMAS? From: Genie Date: 24 Dec 01 - 02:06 AM Susan, I love it! Even if they figure it out, I'm sure they'll appreciate your humor! BTW, it's not the giving of gifts, store-bought or otherwise, that I mind, it's the feeling of obligation that so many feel about it. The perfunctory "exchange" of gifts--even when you have no idea what people need or want--, and the accompanying waste (wrapping paper, gifts that get thrown away or sit unused in a drawer, etc.) , that bother me. Maybe it would not bother me so much if we Americans had a Boxing Day, the way the Canadians do. I just like to see gifts given out of affection for and consideration of the recipient. I'd rather give someone a gift right there and then, when I find something that seems just made for them--even if it's in July--than try to force the gift giving into late December. But to each his own. Genie |
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Subject: RE: NO PRESENTS ON CHRISTMAS? From: mack/misophist Date: 24 Dec 01 - 04:33 PM Our Pilgrim Forefathers, and Mothers would have put you in jail for celebrating Christmas in any fashion whatsoever. A careful reading will show that JC was probably born in the Spring. |
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Subject: RE: NO PRESENTS ON CHRISTMAS? From: Celtic Soul Date: 24 Dec 01 - 05:43 PM Misophist... Not everyones forefathers were pilgrims. Perhaps that is who is responsible for the beginnings of the USA, but in my case, my forefathers were not Americans and did not set foot on these shores until my Grandparents (Fathers side) and Great Grandparents (Mothers side) time. Do you really think it matters when one celebrates the holiday? Does not the intent in ones heart matter more than the actual date? I think the key word in your last sentence is "probably"...the idea being that we cannot know for certain. Lastly, the USA of today is not the same as the USA of pre-revolutionary (Pilgrim) days. We are a different people, and not all of that is for the worse. :D
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