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Origins: Reynardine: Info?

DigiTrad:
REYNARDINE
REYNARDINE 2


Related threads:
Lyr/Chords Req: Bert Jansch: Reynardine (8)
Lyr Req: Reynardine (from Pentangle) (15)
Tune Req: Reynardine.tef file (8)


In Mudcat MIDIs:
One Night Upon My Rambles (first published in the Journal of the Folk Song Society (vol. I, number 3, 1904). W. Percy Merrick got it from Henry Hills (c. 1831-1901), of Lodsworth, near Petworth in Sussex. He had learned it from his mother tune used for Reynardine (2))
Reynardine (Donegal tune, as published by Herbert Hughes.)
Reynardine (version sung by A.L. Lloyd, which he had originally from Tom Cook, of Eastbridge, Suffolk. Tune collected by Merrick from Henry Hills, a Sussex farmer." )


Martin Ryan 04 Mar 98 - 05:33 AM
Earl 04 Mar 98 - 01:32 PM
Moira Cameron 04 Mar 98 - 02:09 PM
Bruce O. 04 Mar 98 - 06:04 PM
Susan of DT 04 Mar 98 - 07:20 PM
Lorraine 04 Mar 98 - 07:55 PM
Barry Finn 04 Mar 98 - 08:51 PM
Will 04 Mar 98 - 09:14 PM
Martin Ryan 05 Mar 98 - 04:58 AM
Catfeet 05 Mar 98 - 11:02 PM
Martin Ryan. 27 Apr 98 - 05:53 PM
Bruce O. 27 Apr 98 - 06:48 PM
Barbara 27 Apr 98 - 11:25 PM
Martin Ryan 28 Apr 98 - 04:12 AM
aldus 28 Apr 98 - 07:27 AM
Bo 30 Apr 98 - 05:38 PM
Bruce O. 30 Apr 98 - 05:47 PM
Martin Ryan. 30 Apr 98 - 08:40 PM
Martin Ryan. 30 Apr 98 - 08:42 PM
Barbara 30 Apr 98 - 08:59 PM
Moira Cameron 01 May 98 - 12:48 AM
Bruce O. 01 May 98 - 02:54 PM
Barry Finn 04 Jun 98 - 09:03 PM
Martin Ryan. 04 Jun 98 - 09:13 PM
dick greenhaus 04 Jun 98 - 10:15 PM
Bruce O. 04 Jun 98 - 10:59 PM
Bruce O. 05 Jun 98 - 12:06 AM
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kendall 27 Feb 00 - 12:44 PM
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Subject: Reynardine: Info?
From: Martin Ryan
Date: 04 Mar 98 - 05:33 AM

I think the Alzheimer's is getting to me at last! I heard someone singing "Reynardine" the other night and couldn't,for the life of me, remember what the song is "actually" about. Something rattled in my brain about the recent "vampires songs" thread....

DT has two versions with a reference I don't have access to (sic). My own collection throws up a blank at a first look.

Help?

Regards


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Subject: RE: Reynardine: Info?
From: Earl
Date: 04 Mar 98 - 01:32 PM

I have it on a CD by Robert and Berrand. The liner notes describe Reynardine as "... a sylvan Bluebeard whose bestial cruelty is matched only by his cunning charm."


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Subject: RE: Reynardine: Info?
From: Moira Cameron
Date: 04 Mar 98 - 02:09 PM

I've heard countless different renditions and interpretations of this song. It became quite an obsession with me a few years ago. I've heard it described in books and on album notes as being about a Vampire (that was Buffy Sainte Marie's interpretation), a Highwayman (A.L.Lloyd on an Ann Briggs album), a man with supernatural powers (in a Helen Creighton collection of Canadian folksongs), and the list goes on.

My favourite interpretation comes from a performance John Roberts and Tony Barrand gave at a folk club in Toronto about 25 years ago. They made the connection between the man's name-Reynardine- and the traditional English folk tale, "Mr. Fox." (Reynard is the french wotd for fox.) "Mr. Fox" is similar to the tale Perreault collected called "Bluebeard". I prefer to interpret Reynardine as a very smart-looking, smooth-talking, manipulative man not unlike the classic serial killers of today. Nothing magical about a serial killer.


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Subject: RE: Reynardine: Info?
From: Bruce O.
Date: 04 Mar 98 - 06:04 PM

Maureen Jollife in 'The Third Book of Irish Ballads' give a text of the song followed by Dr. George Sigerson's rewritten version (with music), "The Mountains of Pomeroy".
In the latter Sigerson take Renardine to be (chorus) 'An outlawed man in a land forlorn,/ He scorned to turn and fly/ But kept the cause of freedom safe/ All on the mountains high'.
This may be to some little extent be based on the (real) life of Edmund Ryan, "Ned of the Hill/Eamon o Chnoic", who didn't join the 'Wild Geese' and go to France after 1691, but stayed as an outlaw in Ireland. He was eventually pardoned, but was murdered by a bounty hunter before the pardon was publicized.
Sigerson's interpretation doesn't give Renardine any sinister qualities.


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Subject: RE: Reynardine: Info?
From: Susan of DT
Date: 04 Mar 98 - 07:20 PM

Martin - The first screen on the DT disk version is just some logos that not all systems display properly. Just hit return to get to the search screen.


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Subject: RE: Reynardine: Info?
From: Lorraine
Date: 04 Mar 98 - 07:55 PM

I seem to remember Margaret MacArthur singing Reynardine on one of her concerts in Washington area She enjoyed telling a story of collecting it in Vermont and asking the woman she collected it from who was Raynardine? She had no idea but loved the story--Margaret sings it one of her albums, but I can't remember which-any help out there??


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Subject: RE: Reynardine: Info?
From: Barry Finn
Date: 04 Mar 98 - 08:51 PM

I seem to remember Martin Carthy singing of a Bold Reynold (the Fox), a view from the Fox's eyes. Barry


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Subject: RE: Reynardine: Info?
From: Will
Date: 04 Mar 98 - 09:14 PM

That sounds familiar, Barry. June Tabor also has a version of Reynard the Fox (with Nic Jones on fiddle) on her Ashes and Diamonds recording.


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Subject: RE: Reynardine: Info?
From: Martin Ryan
Date: 05 Mar 98 - 04:58 AM

Susan

Thanks - its the book (Laws) referred to in the notes to the two versions that I don't have access to!

Myself, I use the Mac version on disc. Hope its updated soon!

Bruce

Interesting re Sigerson's adaptation - a song not heard very often nowadays.

Everyone else: Many thanks - keep it coming!

Regards


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Subject: RE: Reynardine: Info?
From: Catfeet
Date: 05 Mar 98 - 11:02 PM

I've actually heard it described as a song of a were-fox who lures young girls to their deaths in the mountains of Scotland.

Catfeet


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Subject: RE: Reynardine: Info?
From: Martin Ryan.
Date: 27 Apr 98 - 05:53 PM

Can we have another go at this one, please?
Hughes (1909) in "Irish Country Songs" gives a version and says "In the locality where I obtained this fragment, Reynardine is known as the name of a faery which changes into the shape of a fox."

P.W. Joyce in "Ancient Irish Music" (1912) gives one verse only of a version under the title "The Mountains High" , with the placename Pomeroy (Tyrone) but also refers to a version with Fermoy in Cork (I think June Tabor used that name).

Petrie (1855) gives tune only as Reynardine - "from a ballad singer at Rathmines Nov. 1852". Coincidentally, Rathmines, an inner suburb of Dublin, is where I spent the first four years of my life.

I have seen a copy of a ballad sheet (Cathnach) of "Mountains High" which is clearly the same song, with no specific place identified and with the name rendered as Randal Rine! No idea of the date - but I imagine its earlier than 1855.

Sigerson, who was born in Tyrone, appears to have adapted the song for the patriotic "Mountains of Pomeroy".

So. Can anyone push it further back or point out European connections?

Regards


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Subject: RE: Reynardine: Info?
From: Bruce O.
Date: 27 Apr 98 - 06:48 PM

I don't have a book by Leslie Shepherd giving dates for 18th and 19th century ballad printers, but my fuzzy recollection is that Jemmy Catnach was c 1825-55.

Hughes' 'fragments' were sometimes bawdy songs that he wouldn't publish. "Next market day" for example. See what he started with for "The Stuttering Lovers" on my website. His version is barely recognizable. I don't trust him at all. The Cathedral Cacophany (known by many here) sing it, but I don't know if they know much about it.
So what's new about Sigerson's version?


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Subject: RE: Reynardine: Info?
From: Barbara
Date: 27 Apr 98 - 11:25 PM

Frankie Armstrong sings an English version of Mr. Fox that incorporates the line `How high the wall?' She says it has to do with the coming of age of the girl, the discovery of her sexuality. Which I suppose is the underlying theme of a lot of Vampire myths, and made Ann Rice much money: once you do *that*, you can't go back. Barbara


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Subject: RE: Reynardine: Info?
From: Martin Ryan
Date: 28 Apr 98 - 04:12 AM

Bruce
You're near enough with Catnach's dates! I have Shepherd's book and he gives them as 1813-40 or so. SO we get that far back for now.
What were you referring to in "Next Market Day"? Start another thread if necessary.

Barbara
Thanks. Haven't heard the Frankie Armstrong version.


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Subject: RE: Reynardine: Info?
From: aldus
Date: 28 Apr 98 - 07:27 AM

I know this is a change of subject...but speaking of Frankie Armstron, does anyone know if her first album is available. It's on the Topic label I believe. I think it came out in the late sixties but I have not been able to find it on tape of cd.


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Subject: RE: Reynardine: Info?
From: Bo
Date: 30 Apr 98 - 05:38 PM

Anyone seriously interested in this thread as culture should deffinately seek out the Renard Society, a literary society dedicated exclusively to tales of Renard the fox.

Its a pretty dry web site but that would be the beginnings of the 'high road' to researching this background. http://www.hull.ac.uk/Hull/FR_Web/fox.html

Bo


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Subject: RE: Reynardine: Info?
From: Bruce O.
Date: 30 Apr 98 - 05:47 PM

Martin, "The next market day" is a fragment in Hughes' Vol. I of Irish Country Songs. Frank MacPeake sang a fuller version (Maid going to Comber). It's derived from "Carman's Whistle (2 versions of 16th century)/ Comber's Whistle" (17th century) on my website.


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Subject: RE: Reynardine: Info?
From: Martin Ryan.
Date: 30 Apr 98 - 08:40 PM

Bruce

Gotcha. I thought it might be somethibng else. "Comber" in the two senses is interestiong - I'll have a look atyour site,

Bo
Thanks! I'll have a look in detail later - pity about the French!

Regards


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Subject: RE: Reynardine: Info?
From: Martin Ryan.
Date: 30 Apr 98 - 08:42 PM

Sorry about the typos in the last message - that's what I get for replying at 2 a.m. after a few songs and as many pints!

Regards


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Subject: RE: Reynardine: Info?
From: Barbara
Date: 30 Apr 98 - 08:59 PM

aldus, I don't have a recording of Frankie Armstrong singing it. I do have a Sierra Briar recording - late 60's, early 70's? of hers called 'And the Music Plays So Grand'. Could tape you that. I may have heard her sing it in person. I was a BIG fan of hers back then and went to everything in the Bay Area, and Sweetsmill to hear her. Barbara


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Subject: RE: Reynardine: Info?
From: Moira Cameron
Date: 01 May 98 - 12:48 AM

My favourite rendition of "reynardine" is one recorded by Fairport Convention on their album Leif and Leige. The wobbling electric guitar makes the song very eerie and disturbing.


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Subject: RE: Reynardine: Info?
From: Bruce O.
Date: 01 May 98 - 02:54 PM

Re: "Maid going to Comber" etc. I suspect both "Carman's Whistle" and "Watkin's Ale" were inspired by "Malkin was a country Maid" which was earlier. All that survives is on my website, with what I think is a later reworking, "Down in the North Country", in turn condensed to "The Farmer's Daughter of Merry Wakefield". There's a cruder 17th century drollery song that's similar, and survives as a traditional song sometimes called "All Fours".


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Subject: RE: Reynardine: Info?
From: Barry Finn
Date: 04 Jun 98 - 09:03 PM

refresh


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Subject: RE: Reynardine: Info?
From: Martin Ryan.
Date: 04 Jun 98 - 09:13 PM

I finally got hold of the article referred to in the notes to the DT version of this. As I understand it, it argues that the basic source from which all current versions of this come is a broadsheet (probably "The Mountains High", of which several early 19th c. versions are known). The "supernatural" bit, suggesting vampires, werewolves or whatever, may come from verses written by the Irish Poet Joseph Campbell at the beginning of the 20th cent. Given that Bram Stoker was Irish, this may even be right! The idea was suggested by an informant of Hughes who said that "Reynardine" was the name of a "faery" which changed into a fox.

Not sure I believe this, yet...

Regards


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Subject: RE: Reynardine: Info?
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 04 Jun 98 - 10:15 PM

Mark Twain (in another context) commented about being able to: "...reach such a rich harvest of speculation from such a meager collection of facts." Or words to that effect.

I really haven't encountered any supernatural aspect to Reynardine. A were-banjo-picker, maybe?


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Subject: RE: Reynardine: Info?
From: Bruce O.
Date: 04 Jun 98 - 10:59 PM

Thomas Campbell, the poet who wrote "The Exile of Erin", "Lore Ullin's Daughter" and a few other peoms that were set to music was born in Glasgow in 1777. The only Joseph Campbell in O'Donoghue's 'Poets of Ireland' is Seosamh MacCathmaoil, who wrote 'Songs of the Uladh', written to old Irish airs, 1904, (arranged by Herbert Hughes) and later works.


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Subject: RE: Reynardine: Info?
From: Bruce O.
Date: 05 Jun 98 - 12:06 AM

I misread Martin Ryan's note above. His Joseph Camppell and the one I noted were evidenly the same, and the song is probably in the 1904 collection. The song is Laws P15, and Laws says that Mackenzie gave detailed references in 'Ballads and Sea Songs from Nova Scotia'. Mackenzie cites many broadside and songbook printings. The earliest is a Boston broadside of c 1813. The song is also in 'The American Songster', 1836.


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Subject: RE: Reynardine: Info?
From:
Date: 05 Jun 98 - 07:42 AM

Dick

Needless to say - I forgot to post the puzzling verses - which are not in the DT version! The reference is to "his teeth did brightly shine", or thereabouts. I'll dig it out when I get home!

Apologies

Regards


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Subject: RE: Reynardine: Info?
From: Garry Gillard
Date: 27 Feb 00 - 09:45 AM

I've just put four versions of Reynardine on my site: by Martin Carthy, AL Lloyd, Anne Briggs and Coope Boys & Simpson, including stanzas with teeth!

HTH, Gaz

Reynardine


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Subject: RE: Reynardine: Info?
From: kendall
Date: 27 Feb 00 - 12:44 PM

Joe Hickerson, the folk singers folk singer, recorded this for Folk Legacy, and, did a very good job on it.


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Subject: RE: Reynardine: Info?
From: GUEST
Date: 28 Feb 00 - 07:51 AM

I think my favorite recorded version was by Green Fields of America. The version has a chorus made up of the last lines of the verse.

Linn, the Bat Goddess


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Subject: RE: Reynardine: Info?
From: GUEST,aldus
Date: 28 Feb 00 - 09:59 AM

My Favourite version is June Tabors, although I see what you mean about the Fairport Version. I have made numerous inquiries about her topic albums. Apparently they are unavailable. However, she did one in 97 or 98 called "The Grass Oergrew The Corn" . this contains a number of the same songs and an especially good version of Little Duke Arthurs Nurse....no Reynardine However... I always thought the song was about the revenge of the fox for having been so badly trated by "sporting" humans.


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Subject: RE: Reynardine: Info?
From: Lady McMoo
Date: 28 Feb 00 - 10:44 AM

I also like Shirley Collins's version of this.

mcmoo


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Subject: RE: Reynardine: Info?
From: Hollowfox
Date: 01 Mar 00 - 03:43 PM

Louis Killen tells the Mr. Fox story, and follows it with a nice, four verse version of the song "Reynardine", but I don't know that he's ever recorded it. However, in performance he credits (to the best of my memory) A.L.Lloyd with getting one or both in the east of England. in his version of the story, th ending has the heroine's brothers kill Mr. Fox with their swords, "while he stood there, howling like an animal." I've always taken this to be a broad hint at the supernatural, making the story much more interesting to me than your average neighborhood serial killer.


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Subject: RE: Reynardine: Info?
From: Peg
Date: 01 Mar 00 - 04:21 PM

and me, I vote for the John Renbourn Band version, and am also fond of une Tabor's version, which incidentally appears to have inspired a song called The Harvest Lord and the Corn Maiden...many of the same lyrics at any rate...


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Subject: RE: Reynardine: Info?
From: Elektra
Date: 01 Mar 00 - 05:18 PM

I also know of a version by Bert Jantzen (sp?) recorded mid-60's or so(?).

The most beautiful rendition I have ever heard was a duet performed in a local pub by Paul Geremiah on guitar (see also Kill it Kid thread) and Walter McDonough (formerly of The Reprobates, best known around Block Island) on fiddle.

I have begged Walter to record this many times since I heard them play it, but unfortunately he has refused thus far. (He and Paul are pals from way back.)

*elektra*


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Subject: RE: Reynardine: Info?
From: pavane
Date: 10 Aug 01 - 04:02 AM

There are lots of copies in the Bodleian Ballad library, almost all under the name 'The Mountains High' or similar. There are only two which are actually called Reynardine, and the others all have versions of the name, such as Rynadine (1814), Roynel Doine, Randal R(h)ine. One early, copy c1820 , just says meeting Reynard all upon the mountain but most of the text is illegible. It appears from these versions that Reynard(ine) is likely to be the oldest name, the others being later corrupions.

Place names quoted include Pomisa, Pimroy, Pomeroy


Other songs
The snowdrop of the South is given to the tune of Mountains High, and obviously has the same structure.

The song under the names Sly Reynard the Fox and Death of the Fox in the Bodley collection is similar the one recorded by Nic Jones.


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Subject: RE: Reynardine: Info?
From: AllisonA(Animaterra)
Date: 20 Oct 01 - 10:14 AM

Refresh- anyone have new insights?


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Subject: RE: Reynardine: Info?
From: weepiper
Date: 20 Oct 01 - 09:43 PM

The author Neil Gaiman has a version of this story in a book of short stories he did called 'Smoke and Mirrors'. He calls it 'The White Road'. He has a twist though - it's the girl and her brothers who turn out to be the foxes...


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Subject: RE: Reynardine: Info?
From: AllisonA(Animaterra)
Date: 21 Oct 01 - 07:35 AM

I can't seem to find the music for the version mentioned in the liner notes for "Dark Ships in the Forest" which is supposedly "mixolydian" in flavor- both of the tunes int the DT are major and quite cheerful tunes.


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Subject: RE: Reynardine: Info?
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 21 Oct 01 - 08:54 AM

The DT tune presumably belongs to  REYNARDINE,  which is an American version.  The same tune is also linked to from  REYNARDINE 2, which is a transcription from the Roberts and Barrand record.  Unfortunately, no indication is given that this is not the appropriate tune for that version.  The mixolydian one would be the set that everybody learned from A.L. Lloyd, I expect.  I don't think that Lloyd ever said where he got it; it's obviously related to the Reynardine tunes in the Petrie collection, but has a very different flavour.  I rather suspect him of re-making it from one of them into a more "interesting" form.


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Subject: RE: Reynardine: Info?
From: AllisonA(Animaterra)
Date: 21 Oct 01 - 12:38 PM

Yes, Roberts and Barrand refer to the A.L.Lloyd version in their liner notes. Is there a recording of that one? You say "everybody learned it from A.L.Lloyd," but to quote Pogo Possum, "Without me, nobody can be everybody" and I ain't heard it!


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Subject: RE: Reynardine: Info?
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 21 Oct 01 - 03:32 PM

The Lloyd set (sometimes a bit altered) has been recorded by Lloyd himself, and by Martin Carthy, Pentangle, Fairport Convention, Buffy Sainte-Marie, and many, many more.  (Please don't all list your favourites; this thread is long enough already!)  Here is a midi loosely modelled on Lloyd's own singing:  Reynardine (after Bert Lloyd)


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Subject: RE: Reynardine: Info?
From: Desert Dancer
Date: 21 Oct 01 - 06:57 PM

The midi linked to REYNARDINE2 is not the tune that Roberts & Barrand sing on Dark Ships in the Forest. I'll see if I can get it, unless someone beats me to it.

~ Becky in Tucson


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Subject: RE: Reynardine: Info?
From: AllisonA(Animaterra)
Date: 21 Oct 01 - 07:11 PM

Malcolm, you're my hero! Thanks for the midi; I'll have to give it several listens to get it into my head.


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Subject: RE: Reynardine: Info?
From: GUEST,BigDaddy
Date: 21 Oct 01 - 08:21 PM

Anybody have the chords as performed by Fairport Convention?


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Subject: RE: Reynardine: Info?
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 21 Oct 01 - 09:53 PM

The set recorded by Barrand and Roberts was taken from Stephen Sedley's book The Seeds of Love (1967), with an additional verse tacked on at the end.  Though popular 30 years ago, Sedley's material isn't much used, now, as most of the songs were "mix and match" collations from all manner of disparate sources, with hardly a single genuinely traditional song among them.  Reynardine, for example, was described as "Text collated from two 19th-century broadsides (The Mountains High) by Such and Pitts, plus sets collected in Ireland by Joyce and Hughes and the version sung by A.L. Lloyd, which he had originally from Tom Cook, of Eastbridge, Suffolk.  Tune collected by Merrick from Henry Hills, a Sussex farmer."

A bit of a Dog's Breakfast, in short.  The information about Lloyd's source is useful, and I'm grateful to Animaterra and Becky for making me think of checking that reference.  I may as well tie a few loose ends, here; the Such and Pitts broadsides can be seen at  Bodleian Library Broadsides:

The mountains high  Printed between 1849 and 1862 by H. Such, 123, Union Street, Boro' S.E., London.

The mountains high  Printed between 1819 and 1844 by J. Pitts, Wholesale Toy and Marble Warehouse, 6, Gt. St. Andrew Street, Seven Dials, London.

The final verse added by Roberts and Barrand is found in both the above.  The tune mentioned was first published in the Journal of the Folk Song Society (vol. I, number 3, 1904).  W. Percy Merrick got it from Henry Hills (c. 1831-1901), of Lodsworth, near Petworth in Sussex.  He had learned it from his mother, and had only a partial text, as follows:

One night upon my rambles an Irish girl I spied;
Your beauty so enticed me, I could not pass you by.
So it's with my gun I'll guard you all on the mountains high
So it's with my gun I'll guard you all on the mountains high.

She said, "Kind sir, be civil, my company forsake,
For in my own opinion I think you are some rake,
For if my parents they should know, my life they would destroy
For a-keeping of you company, all on the mountains high."

The set published by Herbert Hughes in Irish Country Songs (vol. I, 1909) has a tune fairly close to Lloyd's Sussex one; the text, again, is fragmentary, and described by Hughes as "Fragment of an Ulster Ballad: Donegal version".

If by chance you look for me
Perhaps you'll not me find,
For I'll be in my castle,
Enquire for Reynardine.

Sun and dark I followed him,
His eyes did brightly shine;
He took me o'er the mountains,
Did my sweet Reynardine.

As has been mentioned earlier, Hughes noted, "In the locality where I obtained this fragment Reynardine is known as the name of a faery that changes into the shape of a fox".  This is the only piece of evidence that supports the modern, widely-held assumption that this is a supernatural song; in common with some others, I rather suspect that Hughes' informant was just winding him up.

Midis of these tunes will go to the  Mudcat Midi Pages;  until then, they can be heard via the  South Riding Folk Network  site:

One Night Upon My Rambles  Henry Hills' tune, as recorded by Barrand and Roberts.

Reynardine  Donegal tune, as published by Herbert Hughes.


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Subject: RE: Reynardine: Info?
From: GUEST,Rich-Joy
Date: 21 Oct 01 - 10:16 PM

Funny that no-one seems to have mentioned Archie Fisher's (he of the mellifluous Scots voice!) great version of the eerie REYNARDINE in the mid to late 60's, complete with SITAR (a pre-Beatles acquisition!)- on his XTRA 1070 record "Archie Fisher" (is this available on CD, does anyone know??). Cheers.


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Subject: RE: Reynardine: Info?
From: GUEST,Guest
Date: 21 Oct 01 - 10:49 PM

There is a euphemistic 'kiss' in full traditional versions of the song (she faints and then he has sexual intercourse with her).
This is in a very few of the broadside versions, but not in those broadside texts where his name is given as 'Randal Rhine'. The latter is an expurgated text, and not ancestral to traditional versions.


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Subject: RE: Reynardine: Info?
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 21 Oct 01 - 11:02 PM

Hi, Bruce!  Do you happen to know if Lloyd ever published the set he got from Tom Cook?


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Subject: RE: Reynardine: Info?
From: GUEST,Guest
Date: 22 Oct 01 - 01:27 AM

No I don't know.

My recollection is that Joe Hickerson's version is that from Flander's et al, 'The New Green Mountain Songster', but the text there is a traditional version of George Sigerson's slightly reworked (and expurgated) version called "The Mountains of Pomeroy", and so it's not really a bona fide traditional version of the 'original' "Reynardine".

Two different tunes for "Reynardine" were published in Irish musical works, c 1805 and 1810.


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Subject: RE: Reynardine: Info?
From: Garry Gillard
Date: 22 Oct 01 - 03:27 AM

I have four versions of the song on my Reynardine page, plus links to many things referred to in this thread - and the thread itself.

Garry


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Subject: RE: Reynardine: Info?
From: Garry Gillard
Date: 22 Oct 01 - 10:33 PM

Sorry. The Reynardine page is here, not there.

Garry


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Subject: RE: Reynardine: Info?
From: GUEST,Guest
Date: 23 Oct 01 - 12:54 PM

Sorry, I was wrong about the Joe Hickerson version. It's in DT and isn't the one from 'New Green Mountain Songster.'


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Subject: RE: Reynardine: Info?
From: Crane Driver
Date: 23 Oct 01 - 08:00 PM

I've always wondered if there's any connection between this song and the French character La Reynaudine, a hero of the Hugeonot (Protestant) rebellion against the Catholic monarchy in the 1500's. Apparently lots of "Robin Hood" type stories were told about La Reynaudine, and lots of Hugeonots came over to Britain to escape religious persecution.

It would explain the reference to Reynadine not being "brought up in Venus' train". Hugeonot protestants likened the Catholic emphasis on Mary to the worship of pagan goddesses like Venus. And he says in the song that he's on the run from the "Judge's men" - British judges don't go out looking for people, French judges do.

The song needn't be a translation of a French original, it may have originated in Britain after someone heard a "La Reynaudine" story from a Hugeonot refugee.

Just a thought. We'll probably never know.


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Subject: RE: Reynardine: Info?
From: rich-joy
Date: 08 Jun 02 - 05:24 AM

Refresh

I'm rather taken with Crane Driver's comments - and no-one has commented since ... Cheers! R-J


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Subject: RE: Reynardine: Info?
From: Pete Jennings
Date: 08 Jun 02 - 06:25 AM

Elekta, it was Bert Jansch, who recorded his version on "Rosemary Lane" in 1971. This is available on CD from Wooden Hill Recordings (HILLCD 2). The CD is worth it for the guitar intro to this song alone, but has other great songs on it.

I still play Reynardine regularly at our club.

Pete


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Subject: reynardine (again)
From: whitefell
Date: 13 Jun 02 - 01:42 AM

Hello, I'm familiar with this song. Still, I'm not sure, is this a bit of a lycanthropic theme (werewolf or animal)? I've always liked it and the tune,I''m trying to write a short story about a shapeshifter and wonder, would the lyrics be appropriate? patti I know you all have discussed this song before, have looked at the message threads. Still, I wonder if anyone has something new to add. Thanks


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Subject: RE: reynardine
From: GUEST,Russ
Date: 13 Jun 02 - 08:27 AM

Whether or not it was originally intended to be lycanthropic, I prefer to think of it in that way and sing it that way. A great "spooky" song.


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Subject: RE: Reynardine: Info?
From: GUEST,Nerd
Date: 26 Jun 02 - 01:38 PM

Someone just asked about who reynardine was, so I refreshed this thread.

My own research into this song has shown that many of the claims about it (eg that Lloyd learned it from Tom Cook) are incorrect. Lloyd himself wrote that he had put his version together from two Irish ones. One of them was certainly Campbell's, and Lloyd changed "his eyes so bright did shine" to "his teeth did brightly shine." Lloyd also recorded two distinct versions of it, one of which did not include this line! Shirley Collins's version followed Lloyd's early recording, while Fairport and most others followed his later one.

It seems certainly to have been most popular in America; authenticated traces of it in English oral tradition are extremely rare, though of course it was published on broadsides on both sides of the Atlantic and both sides of the Irish sea.

My own theory as to the name's origin is that "Reynoldyn" was a traditional name for an outlaw much like "Robin Hood." There was, in fact, a piece of late medieval marginalia that listed members of Robin Hood's band, and included Reynoldyn--the only name in the poem that scholars have not identified with a well-known character of the later ballads. It may be that Reynardine is a late offshoot of this Reynoldyn tradition--as indeed, may be Vulpius's Itialian outlaw Rinaldo Rinaldini. But this is mostly speculation.

What is pretty clear is that Reynardine is not supernatural in most versions of the song, or in the minds of most singers outside of a revival context.

I have more to say on this (I'm working on an article about the song), but maybe I'll shut up now!

Anyway, I hope this satisfies anyone who needs info on this song.


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Subject: RE: Reynardine: Info?
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 26 Jun 02 - 09:28 PM

Lloyd regularly made contradictory claims about the sources of his material, and I wouldn't care to hazard a guess as to the truth of most of them, whether quoted directly from him or through third parties. In this case, it's certainly true that there are several Irish tunes that are very close indeed to the one he used; I mentioned the one published by Hughes earlier in this discussion, I think, and at least one of the examples in Stanford-Petrie (in yet another thread on the same subject, if I recall correctly) is also very close.

That in itself proves nothing, but I'd agree that a direct English source for the set that he popularised (and which everybody and his or her dog has since recorded, usually insisting that it's about vampires or werewolves or some such nonsense) is extremely unlikely.

Congratulations, incidentally, on being the first person to add anything worthwhile to any of the numerous discussions on this song that we have here, in quite some time.


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Subject: RE: Reynardine: Info?
From: Susanne (skw)
Date: 28 Jun 02 - 04:26 PM

Nerd, would you mind posting your article here once it's finished? Or at least let us know in which publication it is due to appear? I'd like to include a reference to it in my notes. Thanks!


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Subject: RE: Reynardine: Info?
From: Nerd
Date: 29 Jun 02 - 01:49 AM

Sure, Susanne.

The initial version will appear in Musical Traditions, an online magazine. I hope that a more detailed version will make into an academic journal before too long, but it often takes a year or so from submission to publication, and I haven't even written it yet!


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Subject: RE: Reynardine: Info?
From: AllisonA(Animaterra)
Date: 29 Jun 02 - 05:57 AM

Musical Traditions- looks very interesting, Nerd!


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Subject: RE: Reynardine: Info?
From: Desert Dancer
Date: 09 Aug 02 - 06:15 PM

The Traditional Ballad Index entry is as follows:

NAME: Reynardine [Laws P15]
DESCRIPTION: A lady meets Reynardine (the singer for most of the song). He courts her while bidding her not to reveal his name. He says he has a castle in the forest and that she can reach him by calling him. He then vanishes (?); she warns women against such rakes
AUTHOR: unknown
EARLIEST DATE: 1845 (Journal from the Sharon)
KEYWORDS: courting seduction supernatural warning betrayal
REFERENCES (7 citations):
Laws P15, "Rinordine"
Randolph 99, "Rinordine" (1 text, 1 tune)
Eddy 76, "Rinordine" (1 text)
Combs/Wilgus 113, pp. 143-144, "Ryner Dyne" (1 text)
Huntington-Whalemen, pp. 222-223, "Rinordine" (1 text)
Darling-NAS, pp. 138-139, "Reynardine" (1 text)
DT 341, REYNDINE* REYNDN2*
RECORDINGS:
A. L. Lloyd, "Reynardine" (on Lloyd2, Lloyd3)
Anne Briggs "Reynardine" (on ESFB2, Briggs2*, Briggs3)
CROSS-REFERENCES:
FOUND IN: US(Ap,MW,NE,SE,So) Britain(England(South)) Ireland Canada(Mar)
File: LP15

In addition, it appears in "Maritime Folk Songs", by Helen Creighton (1961), collected from Freeman Young of East Petpeswick, Nova Scotia, and from Berton Young, West Petpeswick, Nova Scotia, in 1952. Freeman Young's version has six verses, Berton Young's has 7. Neither has any sharp teeth: these lines (or approximations thereof) don't appear:

Sun and dark she followed him, his teeth so bright did shine
And he led her over the mountains, that sly bold Reynardine

I'll put on an abc of the tune later, which, close as I can tell (from my limited reading skills), sounds like a relative of the Suffolk tune.

Berton Young said, "Rinordine must have been a dog out walking and met this young lady and put up all this stuff for a bluff. I guess he was something real anyhow." It seems to me that perhaps he was responding to an inquiry from Dr. Creighton about any possible supernatural meaning. And I think when he says "dog" he means young fellow, rather than any foxy reference. Creighton says, "He seems to have little idea of the real character of Rinordine..."

An interesting note: Clary Croft, biographer of Helen Creighton and the one who indexed her collection, does not use the Youngs' tune on his recording "Still the Song Lives On" and doesn't mention that fact -- he uses the "Seeds of Love" tune -- and he has altered the words slightly.

~ Becky in Tucson


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Subject: RE: Reynardine: Info?
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Aug 02 - 07:01 PM

Earliest date in The Traditional Ballad Index is usually meaningless

ABCs of tunes "Renardine", c 1805, and "The Mountains High", 1810, can be found in the file T2.HTM at www.erols.com/olsonw


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Subject: RE: Reynardine: Info?
From: Desert Dancer
Date: 10 Aug 02 - 02:51 AM

Bruce, I don't see those titles in that file of abcs. Can you clarify?

~ Becky


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Subject: Tune Add: RENARDINE and THE MOUNTAINS HIGH
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Aug 02 - 12:37 PM

No, I can't explain yet. My ftp software shows all 15 tunes in the file, but my web browser breaks off before the end of the 9th.

X:14
T:Renardine
S:S. Holden, 'Collection of Old Irish Slow Airs', II, c 1805
Q:1/4=120
L:1/4
M:C|
K:G
d/e/4f/4|ge~ed/B/|A3/2G/EG/A/|BBAG|G3:|\
B/c/|dBde/f/|g2fd|e/f/e/d/
Bd|e3B/c/|dBde/f/|g2fd|e/f/e/d/Bd|e3d/e/4f/4|\
geed/B/|~A3/2G/EG/A/|BBAG|G3|]

X:15
T:The Mountains High
S:Mulholland's 'A Collection of Ancient Irish Airs', 1810
Q:120
L:1/4
M:C
K:G
B/c/|dB{d/}cB/A/|G3/2A/E3/2G/|D3/2E/GA/B/|c3B/c/|dBdB/A/|\
G3/2A/EG/E/|D3/2E/GG|G3||A/B/|BGG/A/ B/c/|ddg/f/ e/d/|\
cB/A/GA/B/|c3B/c/|dBdB/A/|G3/2A/EG/E/|D3/2E/GG|G3||]


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Subject: RE: Reynardine: Info?
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Aug 02 - 02:34 PM

One can now see the whole file T2.HTM. I had to rewrite the 9th tune. I had used left and right arrowheads to indicate splitting time as 1:3 and 3:1, common for ABCs. However, HTML thinks it owns those arrowheads, and tries to interpret them as start or end of an HTML format specification, and what might happen is unpredictable.


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Subject: RE: Reynardine: Info?
From: Desert Dancer
Date: 11 Aug 02 - 03:42 PM

Ah, the dreaded HTML strikes again!

Thanks for the fix.

~ Becky


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Subject: Tune Add: RINORDINE
From: Desert Dancer
Date: 12 Aug 02 - 10:03 PM

Here's the abc for the Rinordine collected in Nova Scotia by Helen Creighton in 1952, as sung by Freeman Young, East Petpeswick and Berton Young, West Petpeswick.

T:Rinordine
C:Trad.
I:Creighton, Maritime Folk Songs p. 112
Q:1/4=98
M:6/8
L:1/8
K:Am
d|ABA G2 A |E2 D C2 D |E2 D D2 C |
D5 C |D2 E F2 A |(d2B) c2 B |(AB)A (G^F)G |
A5 A |D2 D (FG)A |(dc(B)c2) B |(AB)A (G^F)G |
A5 G |A2 B G2 A |(D3(G)^F)D |(CD)E D2 C |
D5 z |]

~ Becky in Tucson


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Subject: RE: Reynardine: Info?
From: Desert Dancer
Date: 12 Aug 02 - 10:05 PM

Please note, on the abc of the Nova Scotia melody I've omitted the grace notes.

~ Becky


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Subject: RE: Reynardine: Info?
From: GUEST,islandia@gofree.indigo.ie
Date: 12 Nov 02 - 12:59 AM

Hello,

Just found this thread since I, too, was seeking more info on "Reynardine".

I recall many, many years back that Buffy Ste. Marie had decided that the main character was a vampire, thus the reference to teeth. It does make it more sinister, but I don't know whether there is weight to that argument.

I really liked the explanation about the Hugeonots. That made some of the references in the song much more clear and as the poster - Crane Driver - of that said, the song could have come from someone in England who had only heard about the Hugeonots.

Mary


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Subject: Who wrote the music to The Mountains Of Pommeroy?
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Oct 03 - 05:49 PM

I know that the words were written as a poem by George Sigerson but who wrote the music? I think it was first performed with music on De Danann's A Jacket Of Batteries


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Subject: RE: Reynardine: Info?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 19 Oct 03 - 06:06 PM

You'd be much more likely to get a helpful reply, GUEST-whoever-you-are, if you posted this as a new thread with the heading you used, instead of in this one. (Or, in this case, as well as in this one, since you've already posted here.)


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Subject: RE: Reynardine: Info?
From: Nerd
Date: 20 Oct 03 - 02:03 AM

The Sigerson song was called "Thge Mountains of Pomeroy," and was a derivative song from the older "Rinordine" or "The Mountains High." I don't know who wrote the music to Sigerson's version, but tunes were supplied for Reynardine by Herbert Hughes and by oral tradition.


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Subject: RE: Reynardine: Info?
From: GUEST,dandydan
Date: 21 Nov 03 - 10:48 PM

With so much to-do about origins & scorn for revivalist were-foxes in such a small field, perhaps it would be of interest to note that were-foxes (kitsune) are (still) rampant in Japan, where they pull exactly the sort of tricks described in "Reynardine." That name means fox, the original singers didn't use the word for no reason, & the motif of human/animal metamorphosis is one of the most widespread and ancient of superstitions. It would seem that the attachment of historical references to a typical & universal myth would obviously (& predictably) follow such a song wherever it wandered.


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Subject: RE: Reynardine: Info?
From: GUEST,Big Jim from Jackson
Date: 22 Nov 03 - 09:27 AM

It's interesting that no one has mentioned the Reindeer Song in connection with this thread. Evidently, as the song filtered through the Appalachian and Ozark Mountains, Reynardine became corrupted into reindeer. I guess those early settlers didn't know much French, and when they tried to sing the song, they sort of plugged in whatever word sounded close. In the process, the song lost its sinister aspects and became more like a tall tale bordering on just a nonsense song. Gail Davies makes refference to it in her song "Grandma's Song" and uses it at the end of the song. Cathy Barton Para collected a version of it in Donophan, Missouri, and included it in her cover of "Grandma's Song". The recording can be obtained from Folk-Legacy Records.


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Subject: RE: Reynardine: Info?
From: GUEST,Lighter
Date: 25 Nov 03 - 08:24 AM

In response to Malcolm back on Oct. 21, 2001:

Since "Reynard" (however one might adapt or misspell it) was the well known stereotypical name for a fox, it seems unlikely to me that Hughes's informant originated the idea, from whole cloth, that the ballad's protagonist was a supernatural fox, especially since there are no vulpine references in the text.

But if he did, isn't this the way that folklore originates?

Of course, Hughes himself might have concocted the notion, on the same principle. But thanks to Hughes, Lloyd, and others, "Reynardine," now appeals to people partially from this association with lycanthropy, a subject of popular interest, if not belief, since the Wolfman films of the 30s. By adding teeth, Lloyd gave the song a new popularity.


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Subject: RE: Reynardine: Info?
From: Nerd
Date: 25 Nov 03 - 05:49 PM

One of the points in my paper, which has now made the rounds of academic conferences, is that Hughes is the first person to refer to the character as "Reynardine," and also the first to declare that he is a were-fox. In fact, in almost all orally collected versions of the song, the name is Rinordine, Rhinordine, Ryner Dyne, Randall Rine, or something else. Only people aware of Hughes' work, or of revivalist versions of the song, call him "Reynardine." So the idea that the name makes him obviously a fox is a bit of a stretch.

Beyond that, "Reynardine" does not mean fox, it means fox-like (just as vulpine means wolf-like or leonine means lion-like). Given this, there are obvious ways in which he may be "like a fox" without assuming that he is a were-fox. He is tricky, seems to be an outlaw, and is being hunted. His having a fox-like name (if, indeed, he had one) would be as natural as Disney making Robin Hood a fox in their version of the legend.


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Subject: RE: Reynardine: Info?
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 25 Nov 03 - 06:30 PM

To be fair, there is an example of a slip-song issued as Reynardine which would pre-date Hughes & Campbell's set, though it is undated and the printer (presumably Irish in this case) is not named (Bodleian 2806 c.8(253) and 2806 c.8(310), both apparently copies of the same issue). Two of the tunes in Petrie are also called Reynardine, so Hughes does seem not quite to have been first there.

My own feeling is still that the supernatural business has been superimposed on an otherwise fairly straightforward song because of the hero's name, rather than that the name was chosen because of any existing supernatural content; it seems much more likely that it reflects the protagonist's outlaw status, as has already been suggested.

Of course a lot of folklore -or perhaps fakelore- has accumulated since Hughes and Campbell, and Helen Creighton, for example, felt sure that "Rinordine... always has supernatural powers"; though the only detail in the song that might suggest something of the sort is the vague implication of some hypnotic ability of the kind common in balladry. She got a set from a Mr Freeman Young at East Petpeswick in 1952, who reportedly described Rinordine as "a magic feller" (Maritime Folk Songs, Toronto, 1962, 112-3); another informant, though, took a more pragmatic view: "Rinordine must have been a dog out walking and met this young lady and put up all this stuff for a bluff. I guess he was something real anyhow." (Mr Berton Young, West Petpeswick, 1952, op. cit.; and quoted by Becky of Tucson earlier in this thread). As Becky suggests, "dog" is of course equivalent to "rake"; Mr Young was certainly not talking about wolves or foxes! We may, as she also suggests, perhaps suspect some "leading" from Miss Creighton here.

Bert Lloyd put the cap on it all, of course; and so many people desperately want the song to be about a were-wolf, or a were-fox (I know that these are common in Japan, but we are not talking about a Japanese song) or a vampire, or some such, that the same old arguments will continue to be rehearsed over and over. All they reflect, though, it what the song (usually in the form concocted by Bert Lloyd) means to some people now; not what it has meant to others, or what it meant to whoever made it. That is an important distinction; to draw a crude analogy, the fact that I have a scar below my lip doesn't mean that I have always had one.

The single relevant piece of evidence we have to support any "shape-shifting" motif is not contained in any known traditional or broadside form of the song, but in the single brief comment quoted by Hughes, and presumably derived from Campbell; which is unprovenanced hearsay, if it is genuine at all. It would be interesting to know if anyone has ever looked for any independent account of such a belief in Donegal, and whether or not they have met with any success.

There appears, incidentally, to be no demonstrable connection with the English folktale of Mr Fox (a Bluebeard analogue; the song based on it, mentioned earlier, is a modern composition) though a lot of people seem to have assumed one and proceeded from there.


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Subject: RE: Reynardine: Info?
From: GUEST,Lighter
Date: 25 Nov 03 - 07:55 PM

You're quite right, Malcolm, about meanings then as distinct from meanings now. All I meant to suggest was that a handful of few new words and the hint of an appealing "hidden" meaning have helped raise the ballad to probably its greatest popularity. I suspect that even many of us who "know better" find the song more enjoyable because of its newly nourished ambiguity. Lloyd's mention of shining teeth is a nearly perfect touch: matched with "sly" and "bold," no liner notes are necessary. I'm speaking here solely of the modern

And consider the intriguing notions that Reynardine's "castle," which ought to be a local landmark, may not be easy to find. Following him "sun and dark" rather than "night and day" is another mysterious touch, though some will undoubtedly find it "gratuitously romantic."

And Nerd, your research is indeed facsinating; but how certain can we be that ballad-singers would take the neologism "Reynardine" to mean only "fox *like*" only? Moreover, "Renardine," "Rinordine" and "Rhinordine" would be pronounced similarly enough, I think, regardless of any broadsheet spelling.

You may be on to something with "Reynoldyn," but more evidence would be most welcome.


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Subject: RE: Reynardine: Info?
From: Nerd
Date: 26 Nov 03 - 03:05 PM

Thanks for the correction, Malcolm. In fact, that broadside was not yet available in their catalog when I did the searches for my paper about 6-8 months ago, and the word "reynardine" turned up no matches at all on a search. (The song was called "The Mountains High" or "One Evening on my rambles" in every version then available). So I'll need to do some minor revisions now that that broadside has been indexed and scanned! Still, the fact is that a minuscule minority of the broadsides or oral versions call him 'Reynardine." The standard academic name, established by Malcolm Laws and based on the majority of texts he had, is "Rinordine," and Holloway and Black believe it is all a corruption of "Reynold Ryan!" Therefore to argue that he must be supernatural because of his name is still a stretch.

Lighter: Yes, more evidence on Reynoldyn would be ideal. Unfortunately, there isn't any, except that in two ballads there is a "Reynold" and in one a "Rennet" who are among the merry men. Scant, I know, but it's all we have! And I agree completely about "sly" and "bold." All added by Lloyd! ("Sun and Dark" was Campbell's, if I recall correctly.)


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Subject: RE: Reynardine: Info?
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 26 Nov 03 - 07:00 PM

Pavane referred to the Bodleian copies titled Reynardine two years ago (earlier in this thread) so you must have been unlucky when you looked. Generally speaking, the Bodleian "search" function is less helpful than the "browse", which, though more time-consuming, tends to return better results. "Sun and Dark" is indeed from Campbell's set.


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Subject: RE: Reynardine: Info?
From: GUEST,Brian Frew
Date: 04 Feb 04 - 07:30 AM

The spelling is Bert Jansch. He is Scottish and played in the seminal band "Pentangle" with his mate John Renbourne, Jaqui McShee etc. He is still playing as well as ever. His version has a wonderful guitar backing (typical of the man) which brings out the mysterious elements of the song.


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Subject: RE: Reynardine: Info?
From: pavane
Date: 04 Feb 04 - 10:57 AM

I ususally find it better to search Bodley on index 2 than on index 1.
Don't know why, but it works better!


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Subject: RE: Reynardine: Info?
From: pavane
Date: 04 Feb 04 - 11:00 AM

Just checked again - the same 2 copies come up on either index, so it wasn't that!


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Subject: RE: Reynardine: Info?
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 04 Feb 04 - 11:19 AM

Being in a particularly pedantic frame of mind, can I point out that Guest Brian's spelling of Jansch is at last correct and that it is pronounced with a 'j' not a 'y' sound as often heard, particularly by Mike Harding who ought to know better.

Furthermore, John Renbourn does not have a final 'e'. And Jacqui McShee has a 'c' in her first name. The other members of Pentangle were Terry Cox and Danny Thompson.

Davy Graham describes BJ's version of Reynardine as 'the best thing he has ever done'. I think Sandy Denny's was pretty damn good too.


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Subject: RE: Reynardine: Info?
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Sep 04 - 04:08 PM

Nerd,

Where would I be able to read your article on this subject? I am impressed with the discussion that has gone on here and your research, amongst others, and would love to learn more.

The only version of the song I have heard is off The Green Fields of America Live In Concert CD, which I personally love. I wish I could find other versions to compare it to, though.

Thanks!


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Subject: RE: Reynardine: Info?
From: Nerd
Date: 15 Sep 04 - 05:23 PM

GUEST,

The article is to be published in the UK Journal "Folklore," and should appear in the issue that comes out this December. Academic publishers are slow compared to the popular press, and this was in fact a very fast turnaround for them because they happened to have a slot open in that issue and made me work very fast on the revisions! I opted not to send it to Musical Traditions first because that would have hurt its chances in the academic journals.

They DID make me cut out a bit (particularly on Reynoldyn/Rinaldini) because the paper was over their word limit. But most what's to be said is above in this thread.

The Green Fields of America Version, by the way, was learned by Mick Moloney from Margaret MacArthur of Vermont, who got it from a field tape. Mick later filled in some words from a songster text. Thus, that version shows none of Bert Lloyd's mediation...no sly, bold, teeth, etc.   

I gave a talk on this ballad at the NY Eisteddfod this year, and Margaret came and played the field tape for us!


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Subject: RE: Reynardine: Info?
From: GUEST,Lighter at work
Date: 15 Sep 04 - 05:30 PM

Nerd, I'll be reading your article with interest!

Ann Briggs recorded a fine performance (of Lloyd's version, I think) in the early 60s. Pretty sure it's on her currently available CD.


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Subject: RE: Reynardine: Info?
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Sep 04 - 05:37 PM

Thanks for the response, Nerd. I will be attempting to find a copy of that publication come December.

This whole discussion has been a fascinating and most impressive read. I would have no idea how to go about researching this sort of thing.


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Subject: RE: Reynardine: Info?
From: Nerd
Date: 15 Sep 04 - 06:44 PM

GUEST,

For me it was serendipity. I came across a copy of the Campbell text at a used bookstore in Seattle, and bought that. I tracked down the Hughes text a bit later; first the version he published in a book, then the original fragment he collected, which he had published in "Notes and Queries."

But the big piece of luck was that I came across an obscure recording of Lloyd in a used record shop in New York. The Lloyd version on this record was from the 1950s, earlier than his famous recording of the song, and was much shorter than his later recording, with only verses that had been published by Campbell and Hughes. That alerted me to discrepancies with the prevailing academic opinion on the song, which began to be preposterous given the existence of this older recording.

From there it's legwork: trying to find traces of Tom Cook, and of "Reynardine" in Eastbridge. Finding all the versions you can and comparing them. AND, not incidentally, trying to make some halfway interesting points about the whole thing.


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Subject: RE: Reynardine: Info?
From: Tannywheeler
Date: 15 Sep 04 - 07:25 PM

For some years there was a musical foursome here in Austin (Tx) named Reynardine. According to one of their members, Lorre Weidlich, they took the name because of its history in various folklores they had looked into -- all-too-human womanizer/serial killer, spook, etc. They did old British Isles ballads, traditional Celtic, bluegrass, old-time-string-band, Carter Family, etc. -- lots of styles. Other members were Earl Hunt and Glenn Schultze. Lorre played Appalachian Dulcimer and tinwhistle and sang, Earl played guitar and mandolin and sang, Glenn played (and built)washtub bass and sang. The fourth member's last name eludes me now, but the first was Chuck and he played the concertina. They disbanded. Glenn died of a heart attack several years later. Still see the others around doing stuff. 'Course they make their livings other ways. Glenn was a follower of the traditions of warm, loyal friendship, and encouraging a healthier approach to life on the planet. Durn, I miss him. Tw.


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Subject: RE: Reynardine: Info?
From: Nerd
Date: 16 Sep 04 - 01:43 AM

The fourth member was Chuck Strickland. I have a cassette they put out in 1989! Sorry to hear that Glenn passed away.

There was also a band called Reynardine in England. Mike Raven was a member of that one.


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Subject: RE: Reynardine: Info?
From: Tannywheeler
Date: 16 Sep 04 - 02:16 AM

Ah, yes. Thanks, Nerd. What would us old fogeys do without people with good sense and memories? I shudder to contemplate. Share music and health with others and honor those who've taken that step off the edge before us thereby. Tw


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Subject: RE: Reynardine: Info?
From: Nerd
Date: 16 Sep 04 - 10:56 AM

I'll drink to that, tw.

should also mention that a few people here, including Malcolm Douglas, have helped me with the details, both in this thread and in PMs. Thanks, folks!   Oddly, the journal was reluctant to have me state that some of the facts were posted to a folk music internet forum, because it might look unreliable--even though Malcolm is, by anyone's standards, an authority! So the Mudcat itself does not get a credit, just a couple of individuals and their "personal communications."


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Subject: RE: Reynardine: Info?
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Sep 04 - 05:31 PM

Nerd,

From what I have read, I would say that you have made some more than interesting points. To say your work has been impressive would be an understatement.


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Subject: RE: Reynardine: Info?
From: MartinRyan
Date: 19 Sep 04 - 12:58 PM

Jim Mc Farland, a fine singer from Derry, has just released a CD which includes the song. I'll post details later.

Regards


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Subject: RE: Reynardine: Info?
From: GUEST,Layla
Date: 06 Nov 04 - 05:25 PM

Looking forward to reading your article in Folklore, Nerd. What is the exact title of the piece as it is going to appear in the journal?


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Subject: RE: Reynardine: Info?
From: Nerd
Date: 07 Nov 04 - 11:21 AM

A.L. Lloyd and "Reynardine": Authenticity and Authorship in the Afterlife of a British Broadside Ballad.

Originally it was Resurrecting Reynardine: etc, But the journal thought it would be more eye-catching to more potential readers if Bert Lloyd were mentioned in the title! I'm looking forward to it myself. The only regret is that, due to length, they made me cut out a good deal, and it ended up being the "Reynoldyn" material that brought me onto this thread in the first place! That now turns up only in a footnote. Since then I have turned up another "Reynold" text clearly associated with the Robin Hood tradition, so perhaps I'll publish a short paper or a "note" about Reynold/Reynoldyn/Reynardine somewhere...


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Subject: RE: Origins: Reynardine: Info?
From: GUEST,maranjo
Date: 11 Dec 04 - 04:18 PM

Fascinating reading. I 'googled' to this discussion in search of background, having listened to the beautiful version of Reynardine on the (2003) album Country Life by UK duo Show of Hands. The page at that link gives a number of track samples as mp3, but sadly one isn't available for Reynardine. Lyrics are on the album, again a slight deviation from the examples referred to above. Strongly recommended.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Reynardine: Info?
From: GUEST,Jane
Date: 02 Jan 05 - 01:11 PM

Maranjo says she (hope that's right!) got here having listened to Show of Hands' version of the song. I got here exactly the same way. It was playing, they were fabulous, I thought I must find out more -- and what a lot I've discovered!

Maranjo is right -- Show of Hands version is, indeed, beautiful, and powerful and hypnotic. Highly recommended!


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Subject: RE: Origins: Reynardine: Info?
From: Weasel Books
Date: 03 Jan 05 - 12:18 PM

I think "brought up in Venus's Train" means rake. Not any Hugeneot beliefs on pagan origins of Christian traditions. Reynardine is telling the young woman not to be afraid, as he is not a rake (HA!).


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Subject: RE: Origins: Reynardine: Info?
From: Desert Dancer
Date: 21 Feb 05 - 10:47 AM

Here's a link to Steve Winick's article, A. L. Lloyd and Reynardine: authenticity and authorship in the afterlife of a British broadside ballad in the December 2004 issue of Folklore.

The abstract:

'This paper presents new evidence concerning the broadside ballad "Reynardine," which became popular in the British folksong revival movement of the 1960s and 1970s. It argues that the revival versions of this ballad were not products of the folk tradition, but rather descendants of a text authored by A. L. Lloyd, who was both a singer and a folksong scholar. The paper goes on to suggest reasons why Lloyd might have authored the ballad, and reasons why he might have concealed that authorship, placing its evidence and observations in the context of folkloristic concerns about authenticity and authorship, folklore and fakelore.'

~ Becky in Tucson


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Subject: RE: Origins: Reynardine: Info?
From: Desert Dancer
Date: 21 Feb 05 - 10:52 AM

P.S. I should say: thanks to John C. for mentioning this link elsewhere.

~ B in T


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Subject: RE: Origins: Reynardine: Info?
From: michaelr
Date: 21 Feb 05 - 08:29 PM

Winick's article is interesting, but looking back over this thread, it appears that the theory he's trying to prove, i.e. MacColl's de facto authorship of the revival "Reynardine", has been pretty much the accepted wisdom around here.

Nerd, is he saying the same thing you are? And what are the odds of two major papers on the same folk subject should be published at the same time?

Cheers,
Michael


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Subject: RE: Origins: Reynardine: Info?
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 21 Feb 05 - 09:34 PM

They are one and the same person, which rather improves the odds.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Reynardine: Info?
From: Nerd
Date: 22 Feb 05 - 12:43 AM

Yes, it's been my theory for about three or four years, which is how long it took me to write the thing, get advice from people like Malcolm, make the rounds of conferences, get it out for publication...and then the lag time to get it into print. So I've been blabbing about it here for so long it seems like old news, but the paper just came out in December! So he is saying the exact same thing as I am...he is, in fact, I!


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Subject: RE: Origins: Reynardine: Info?
From: Grab
Date: 22 Feb 05 - 08:12 AM

For reference, Show of Hands repeat the were-fox theory, which maybe explains the mysterious, hypnotic feel they used for the song.

Graham.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Reynardine: Info?
From: michaelr
Date: 22 Feb 05 - 10:05 PM

Ah, silly me... I guess I was distracted by the Mudcat handle vs real name red herring.

Good work, Steve -- guess you've been outed! I should have known it was you from your Dirty Linen columns (where you kindly reviewed two of my CDs [Greenhouse is my band]). After all, how many Celt Nerds could there be?

Cheers,
Michael


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Subject: RE: Origins: Reynardine: Info?
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 23 Feb 05 - 03:12 PM

"Renaldine 2," in the DT, apparently taken from "The New Green Mountain Songster," Flanders et al., where it is printed with music as "Renaldine, or the Montains of Pomeroy," pp. 64-66, should be noted in the DigiTrad heading.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Reynardine: Info?
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Feb 05 - 09:17 PM

Nerd,

Just read the paper and let me say that I was engrossed. I stumbled upon this discussion back in September (bringing up The Green Fields of America) and only today remembered it.

A fantastic read and I look forward to any additional information you put together regarding the song and its history.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Reynardine: Info?
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 23 Feb 05 - 09:53 PM

The song was heard by Washington Irving in Kentucky ca. 1832. It was collected in Missouri (Belden, as Rinordine, coll. 1906), Virginia, Ohio, Michigan, Vermont, Arkansas and elsewhere. Also collected in Canada (See Randolph, Ozark Folksongs, vol. 1, pp. 379-380.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Reynardine: Info?
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 23 Feb 05 - 10:55 PM

One American broadside of the song with the name "Ranordine" was printed in Boston ca. 1813 (Ford, Massachusetts Broadsides, 3318- noted by Flanders et. al., "New Green Mountain Songster," p. 65.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Reynardine: Info?
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 23 Feb 05 - 11:14 PM

It also appeared in the enormously popular Forget Me Not Songster (New York, Nafis & Cornish, 1835) as Rinordine.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Reynardine: Info?
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 23 Feb 05 - 11:27 PM

The Forget Me Not Songsters were published at least between 1820 and 1847, with at least three different publishers; 250 pages or more, which was a good size for a songster of that period.
It would be interesting to have the indices.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Reynardine: Info?
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 24 Feb 05 - 12:33 AM

Roud includes indexes for 1835 (Nafis & Cornish, New York/ John B Perry, Philadelphia) and c.1850 (Locke, Boston); also -partially- The Negro Forget Me Not Songster (Turner & Fisher, Boston, 1845) which was a different series; largely Minstrel songs. My copy of FMN is the 1835 edition (or a later printing of it) with 256 pages; I've seen a partial contents listing for another, possibly earlier, edition with a variant selection of songs, but I can't find any record I may have made of it.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Reynardine: Info?
From: Nerd
Date: 24 Feb 05 - 02:05 AM

Q, one thing to be clear about: The Mountains of Pomeroy is a later song, written with the original Reynardine in mind and maintaining the name for the central character. It uses only two lines from the original song, however: "your life they would destroy" and "with my gun I'll guard you." So it's a very different song, and I treat it as such in the paper.

If anything, the existence of this song lends credence to my belief that the "original" understanding of Reynardine among regular folks was that he was an outlaw, since the person who re-worked it, George Sigerson, put his Renardine in that role. But there's no proof either way.

When writing this paper, I was very aware of the loss of my mentor, Kenny Goldstein, who passed away in 1995. Kenny was the producer of the A.L. Lloyd album on which the earlier version of Reynardine was recorded--the one that tipped me off that the Tom Cook story was unlikely. He also was a collector of the Forget Me Not Songster, and had at least one of every edition when he died. I had to go to the rare book room at the library to see a copy of it; when Kenny was alive I would have gone to his top story book room in West Philadelphia and gotten a better selection!


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Subject: RE: Origins: Reynardine: Info?
From: GUEST,Muttley, GUEST
Date: 24 Feb 05 - 08:03 AM

Have been reading the thread entries (The title kinda leaped out at me and "rang bells" as I perused the threads titles) - trying to get a feel for the group before 'joining' - if allowed, of course!

Reynardine stuck out as it reminded me I had seen / heard of / read about the title / song in the past. Have an odd mind that sort of works that way, sorry.

The only version I have actually heard live was by Maddy Prior here in Melbourne about 3 years ago or so and I resurrected my copy of "Arthur the King" by Maddy and sure enough, Reynardine was there. Read the lyrics and then followed the links to REYNARDINE and REYNARDINE 2 on this thread - one (R-2) is almost identical to Maddy's version and the other is not far off that.

HOWEVER!!! I also recall reading the lyrics many years ago by a source I now cannot recall (I'm 46 and I was quite young, then) However, I do recall that the first version mentioned EYES in place of TEETH. I feel that the use of the teeth was either someone's effort at individuality or a genuinely alternative version - A step away from the "well-worn beautiful-eyes" track, if you will.

One also feels that it is this mention of "shiny teeth" that has given rise to the Vampire / Lycanthrope interpretation. One also feels (as has, I think, been mentioned) that this is inaccurate. Generally (and I am a student of Vampire Lore) that a vampire's teeth are never referred to as teeth but as fangs - except as by way of introduction: To paraphrase Bram Stoker when he discovered Count Dracula asleep in his coffin - he described "a healthy, robust man with ruby lips and full, dark hair drawn into a Widow's Peak and his eye teeth (which we might call the canine teeth) were now protruding below his lower lip as veritable fangs". Remember, when he first met the Count, Dracula appeared as an older man of pale complexion, pallid lips and white, wispy hair!
I am quoting from memory as my only copy has been loaned and has as yet not been returned - miserable mortal - it was an OLD copy, too!

Sketchy, but many theories start out that way.

As for the Huguenot angle; it is interesting and plausible except for one thing. The majority of the Huguenots fled from France during the Catholic (or Roman) persecutio - NOT to England: many did flee in that direction, but were turned away - England and France were at war with each other at that time (as usual)- and even the prospect of resettling more Protestants to swell the numbers against the dreaded "Papist Threat", they still didn't trust FRENCH Protestants any more than they trusted ANY Frenchman. In fact, the vast majority of the French Huguenots fled not to England, but to Holland (Belgium was too Francophilic and not genuinely its own entity entirely and the Dutch, despite being predominantly Catholic as well, were, in fact, very liberal in their attitude to the "New Faith". Protestants and Catholics existed side-by-side with little rancour. Thus the Huguenots flourished. The Huguenots also fled to Spain - VERY surprising, but also very tolerant. They had little or no status there, but they were not hunted down. Despite the rampant Catholicism in Spain (the spiritual home of the Inquisition) the Spaniards hated the French more than they disliked non-Catholics - after all, they'd been ruled by the Moslem Moors for a few hundred years and not suffered TOO greatly as a result!
This information comes from my Mother-in-Law; a French Huguenot of Spanish extraction and from a small history tract entitled: "Les Histoire Des Huguenot".

Finally, I too have heard the legend of "Reynoldyn" or "Reynauldynne" from the Robert of Locksley (Robin Hood) tradition. Again, I have to agree with this 'person' as being the inspiration for this name. It fits the 'outlaw character'of the titular character.

As the lyrics suggest: Reynardine was an outlaw of sorts as he is "...searching for concealment all from the Judges men...". At this point our heroine falls for the "black sheep" (the good girls always fall for the bad men)- the implication being the age-old premise that "her love can change a rogue into a gentleman".

Finally; one also feels that the constant referral to Reynardine as a fox, were-fox or similar is drawing FAR too long a bow. Granted "renard" IS the French for fox - NOT Reynard! The assimilation of the latter name with 'fox' is undoubtedly due to the rather pathos-inspiring English poem: "Reynard the Fox", written, I believe in either the very late 19th or very early 20th Century and often included in school poetry anthologies - I had a copy which belonged to my sister who began school in the 1950's and it was an OLD poem then! Reynard is the anglicisation of 'renard'.

Thus, In summation, one draws the following:
1. Reynardine is NOT about a fox or were-fox.
2. One cannot accept (however good) the Huguenot angle.
3. Reynardyn of Robin Hood fame is the most likely source of the
    name.
4. The song is NOT about a vampire or Lycanthrope; as I recall the
    (apparent) originalversion of the song, confirmed by an earlier
    posting on this thread that the "shiny" anatomy referred to was
    eyes and not teeth.
And Finally
5. I feel that confirming the 'vampire' interpretation by simply linking the Irish writer Bram Stoker of 'Dracula' fame with an Irish version of the song waaaaaaaaaayyyyyyyy too long a reach!

Hope this doesn't offend anyone, but I LOVE a good muso-historical mystery - actually, I love ANY kind of historical mystery.

Thanks

John "Muttley" Waters

PS - I'm off to 'join up' now - if I'm still welcome!


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Subject: RE: Origins: Reynardine: Info?
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 24 Feb 05 - 04:02 PM

My main interest in this song is that it seems to be one of those whose wide dissemination in America depended largely on broadsheet and songster publication. There is not much variation in 'story line' of the versions collected.
I believe that many of the ballads collected here were spread by printed media rather than through primary verbal transmission by immigrants from 'the old country.'

Whether Rinordine (or alt. spp.) was an outlaw, a minor noble or just a charismatic young blade is not clear to me, at least from the versions I have seen so far- and interpretation is up to the individual singer -interpreter.

Possible connections with the Robin Hood or continental European outlaw stories are interesting as speculation, but "Where's the beef?"


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Subject: RE: Origins: Reynardine: Info?
From: Gray D
Date: 24 Feb 05 - 06:25 PM

On the subject of versions, you may wish to check out Sheila Chandra's "ragafied" version, called "The Enchantment" on her "Weaving My Ancestor's Voices" CD. Real World CDRW24.

It is "ragafied", mind you. Spooky, beautiful, but maybe not for the strict traditionalists.

Gray D


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Subject: RE: Origins: Reynardine: Info?
From: Gray D
Date: 24 Feb 05 - 06:28 PM

or possibly "ghatified".

Gray D


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Subject: RE: Origins: Reynardine: Info?
From: Muttley
Date: 25 Feb 05 - 02:30 AM

"Q" wrote: Whether Rinordine (or alt. spp.) was an outlaw, a minor noble or just a charismatic young blade is not clear to me, at least from the versions I have seen so far- and interpretation is up to the individual singer -interpreter.

I think: ALL OF THE ABOVE is a fair interpretation of a character was, in all likelihood' fictional or at best, an amalgam of other identities.

It's entirely probable that he was all three!

I forgot to mention the other night that, though I have not heard other versions I LOVE the Maddy Prior rendition - that woman has such a penetrating an powerfully clear sound. Quite apart from the musical sound; I tend to believe that she GAVE Steeleye Span their true voice.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Reynardine: Info?
From: GUEST,Lighter at work
Date: 25 Feb 05 - 07:41 AM

Q, ballads spread by print should show up in collected versions with many unrelated tunes since the reader would have to pick one independently. Is this really a feature of ballads in America? I don't believe anyone has ever looked into this question.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Reynardine: Info?
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 25 Feb 05 - 11:32 PM

Lighter, it is true that this aspect of song dispersion has not been investigated to any extent. It is an idea of mine that may be shot down by more study.
There are a few broadside collections in North America, but their contents are known only to a few, as the lists have not been published as far as I know, and certainly the lyrics have not been published. American Memory is one exeption.
Many broadsides have a tune specified, but this does not always help either.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Reynardine: Info?
From: GUEST,Aged
Date: 01 Mar 05 - 05:41 PM

Actually, it'd pretty cool to be able to play Reynardine. I fumble about on the guitar, but I've never been able to get a handle on the tuning or produce a reasaonable rendition. can any one provide a pointer?


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Subject: RE: Origins: Reynardine: Info?
From: Stephen R.
Date: 01 Mar 05 - 06:30 PM

Muttley is quite right that 'fox' in French is _le renard_ with no letter y, but this is not relevant to the question of a possible connexion with 'Reynardine' in English. (Let me emphasize that I put no more stock in this connexion than does Muttley--the issue is not there.) The French word comes from the prevalence of the fable in which Renard is the name of the personified fox (the title role), as Chanticleer is of the rooster etc.; compare Italian, where the Latin word is preserved in Romance form (I can't explain what happened in Spanish; _zorro_ is not Arabic; maybe Basque?). The disappearance of the _y_ in French is of no more moment than the same disappearance in 'Ronald' (Scots < Norse), or its survival as a silent letter in 'Reynold'(Middle English < Old English). The song could simply have preserved an older form of the word than the modern French word. But I vote with those who trace its occurrence in the song to the Robin Hood literature, where it is a name of Old English origin.

Stephen


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Subject: RE: Origins: Reynardine: Info?
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 01 Mar 05 - 07:50 PM

Zorro had his start in pulp fiction (1919) by a man named McCully, who applied the Spanish word for fox to his character.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Reynardine: Info?
From: michaelr
Date: 01 Mar 05 - 10:29 PM

Guest Aged -- I play the song in regular tuning. In the key of D, it can be played with just that chord, C and G.

Cheers,
Michael


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Subject: RE: Origins: Reynardine: Info?
From: GUEST,Nerd
Date: 02 Mar 05 - 10:25 PM

One point of confusion above is that the name "Reynard" does not come from the French word for fox; quite the opposite. The French for fox comes from a Germanic proper name that is in modern German known as Reinhart, and in English as Reynard. The original word for fox in French was goupil, but this was replaced in the late middle ages by renard because of the popularity of the beast epic of Reynard the Fox in France. The y or i that is in the proper name is original to it in the Germanic languages, and the name of the fox in the Germanic versions of the stories has the i or y. There is no reason to expect the name and other names or words derived from it to lose the y in English just because they did so in French. So the dissimilarity of "renard" and "Reynard" is not a grounds for excluding the werefox connection...but I think there are more than enough other grounds, as I've made clear.

Q, the most obvious textual grounds for assuming Reynardine is an outlaw is the line "I'm seeking for concealment," which is nearly ubiquitous in broadside, songster, and oral versions. In many versions the line is "I'm seeking for concealment all from the judge's men," which makes it pretty clear he is, if not technically an outlaw, at least a wanted man (which is all I really mean by the term). In other versions, though, the line is "all in the judge's name," which would make him the opposite: a covert operative of some kind, a thief-taker perhaps, who is on some sort of stakeout.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Reynardine: Info?
From: GUEST,Yorkie Bartram
Date: 28 Apr 05 - 10:08 AM

Dear Nerd,

Earlier in this thread you said, "perhaps I'll publish a short paper or a "note" about Reynold/Reynoldyn/Reynardine somewhere... ".

Could I suggest you think again about Musical Traditions?

Yorkie.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Reynardine: Info?
From: freda underhill
Date: 28 Apr 05 - 10:14 AM

i saw a fox tonight, in a neighbour's garden


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Subject: RE: Origins: Reynardine: Info?
From: Scotus
Date: 28 Apr 05 - 02:00 PM

Nerd - I've PM'd you, in case you missed it.

Jack


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Subject: RE: Origins: Reynardine: Info?
From: GUEST,PRKJ
Date: 07 Dec 05 - 11:44 PM

Here are the verses published in The Forget Me Not Songster, Nafis & Cornish, New York, undated. My copy has 1872 penciled on the flyleaf. It's a little handbook containing about 80 songs.

Rinordine

One evening as I rambled
Two miles below Pomroy,
I met a farmer's daughter,
All on the mountains high;
I said my pretty fair maiden
Your beauty shines most clear,
And upon these lonely mountains
Im glad to meet you here.

She said, young man, be civil
My company forsake,
For to my good opinion,
I fear you are a rake;
And if my parents should know,
My life they would destroy,
For keeping of your company,
All on the mountains high.

I said, my dear, I am no rake
But brought up in Venus' train,
And looking out for concealments
All in the judges' name;
Your beauty has ensnared me,
I cannot pass you by,
And with my gun I'll guard you,
All on the mountains high.

This pretty little thing,
She fell into amaze;
With her eyes as bright as amber,
Upon me did she gaze;
Her cherry cheeks and her ruby lips,
They lost their former dye,
And then she fell into my arms;
All on the mountains high

I had but kissed her once or twice,
Till she came to again;
She modestly then asked me,
Pray, sir, what is your name
If you go to yonder forest
My castle you will find,
Wrote in ancient history;
My name is Rinordine.

I said, my pretty fair maiden,
Don't let your parents know,
For if ye do, they'll prove my ruin
And fatal overthrow;
But when you come to look for me
Perhaps you'll not me find,
But I'll be in my castle;
And call for Rinordine

Come all ye pretty fair maidens,
A warning take by me,
And be sure you quit night walking
And shun bad company;
For if you don't you'll surely rue
Until the day you die,
And beware of meeting Rinor,
All on the mountains high

The punctuation is something I couldn't have dreamed up. The last verse looks like a standard caution that was tacked onto the ballad story, particularly noticeable as shift away from the first-person narration of the other verses.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Reynardine: Info?
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 08 Dec 05 - 02:05 AM

Thanks for posting it. Any music in the songster? Usually not, but sometimes a tune cited.

I know it is a lot of work, but could you post the song titles? There are songs in these old songsters that are hard to find. We will help you post material of interest. PM me.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Reynardine: Info?
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 08 Dec 05 - 02:48 AM

That final verse is present in most broadside copies, and seems likely to have been part of the song from the start. Rinordine is in all editions of the Forget Me Not Songster except for a variant of (probably) the 1850s, but no tune is specified. Nafis & Cornish editions are likely between 1843 and 1851, but the whole publishing history is quite complicated.

See Norm Cohen's 'The Forget-Me-Not Songsters and Their Role in the American Folksong Tradition' in American Music vol 23 no 2, Summer 2005, Society of American Music & University of Illinois Press. It is the standard work on the subject, and a mine of information.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Reynardine: Info?
From: GUEST,Lighter at work
Date: 08 Dec 05 - 09:44 AM

The final stanza seems to have been adapted later for "The Boston Burglar." The way I remember it:

You lads who have your liberty, preserve it while you can,
Don't never go night-walking, boys, or shun the laws of man;
For if you do, you'll surely rue, and become a lad like me,
Serving out your twenty-one years in the penitentiary.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Reynardine: Info?
From: GUEST,Lighter
Date: 10 Jul 06 - 01:28 PM

If anyone hasn't yet noticed, Nerd's report on Lloyd & Reynardine is now available at your fingertips here:

http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m2386/is_3_115/ai_n8694034

Belated congratulations, Nerd! I loved it!


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Subject: RE: Origins: Reynardine: Info?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 10 Jul 06 - 01:35 PM

That URL does not seem to work


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Subject: RE: Origins: Reynardine: Info?
From: GUEST,Nerd at work
Date: 10 Jul 06 - 04:02 PM

Thanks, Lighter! I've been off the 'cat for over a year...just posted again for the first time yesterday. Coincidence? (Sorry, Yorkie and Scotus, I missed your messages by months.)

God willing, the Reynardine/Robin Hood connection will be published in a book of essays presented at last year's International Robin Hood Conference.

Richard, it may be that the site with the paper has restricted access. I am right now at work, which is in a Library, so if there is a subscription fee needed to see the site we've paid it. I'll see if it works from home later.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Reynardine: Info?
From: GUEST,Lighter
Date: 10 Jul 06 - 05:56 PM

If that doesn't work, try this:

http://www.findarticles.com/p/search?qt=reynardine&qf=free&qta=1&tb=art&x=0&y=0

(Copy & paste to your search pane.)

You'll see the link. No subscription fee needed, so far as I know.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Reynardine: Info?
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 11 Jul 06 - 11:57 AM

The text of the article now seems to be invisible in all the browsers I've tried, though it used to display correctly. The same problem affects other articles. If you look at the underlying page code, you'll see that the text is still there; it just doesn't display. I suspect that changes to the large amount of javascript on the site (mostly for loading ads) may have caused the problem.

What I gather is a re-working of the piece (I haven't yet compared the two), reverted to its original title (see comments above) can be seen at http://www.sas.upenn.edu/~swinick/folk228/reynardine.html.  'Resurrecting Reynardine: Authorship and Authenticity in the Afterlife of a British Broadside Ballad': Stephen D. Winick.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Reynardine: Info?
From: Gwenzilla
Date: 11 Jul 06 - 12:52 PM

Nerd, I would *love* to hear about Reyanrdine/Robin Hood! Just tell me when and where that book'll be available! When I first read taht article, I had fun roaming around in its footprints and looking at all the references. It was great fun, since I've always loved the song-- and it gave me an excuse to pop over to Goldsmiths (right up the street from my house) and pilfer through Bert Lloyd's library.

I know I sound like a fangirl, sorry. I really, really enjoyed this article, and all I can say is keep up the good work. :)


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Subject: RE: Origins: Reynardine: Info?
From: GUEST,Nerd at work
Date: 11 Jul 06 - 01:59 PM

Whoa! Malcolm, you are amazing! I put that older version of the article online for my students in the folksong course at Penn. I had forgotten all about it. Yes, it has reverted to its original title and is longer than they would allow in "Folklore." It mentions the Robin Hood material but not at the same length as the new paper will. I'll renew this thread when that becomes available. For now, Malcolm's latest link is the most complete version available...


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Subject: RE: Origins: Reynardine: Info?
From: GUEST,Brian Peters
Date: 11 Jul 06 - 07:39 PM

Ah, great, I've read it now. Fine work, Steve. And not least because it's always pleasant to find one's own intuition confirmed by someone who has actually taken the trouble to do the research!


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Subject: RE: reynardine
From: Felipa
Date: 15 Aug 15 - 04:13 PM

I would have like to add this link to the thread on origins of Reynardine or the one requesting information on Reynardine. Both are closed, I know not why.


Rhinordine
http://www.lizlyle.lofgrens.org/RmOlSngs/RTOS-Rhinordine.html suggests the song is not of European origin,not as old as some people think:

"Rhinordine has an interesting history, as delineated by Jon Pankake in his notes to the Smithsonian-Folkways CD 40040, The New Lost City Ramblers, Vol. 2 -- Out Standing In Their Field (buy the album for the full story). Jon uses the history of Rhinordine (which is not sung by the Ramblers) as an example of the commerce between professional entertainers and the folk. For us city performers, the 'original' source is the Gant Family, Austin, Texas, 1934, recorded by John and Alan Lomax, Library of Congress AAFS 67A2. The ballad probably originated in England (or perhaps France, if you take seriously the English spelling "Reynardine" to signify the foxy French). He's a long-lived supernatural being (perhaps the Wandering Jew of European folklore?) who has a castle on the mountain and a penchant for innocent young girls. The ballad has been collected throughout the British Isles, Newfoundland, and the southern U.S. The twist to the story is that a text published in The American Songster, 1836, one hundred years before the Gants, is almost identical to the Gant's version. The book described it, not as an old ballad, but a 'Modern and Popular song,' performed on Broadway!

"Its existence in the intervening century is a mystery. There are also some surprises in the text. The narrator (Rhinordine himself) waits until the end to hint at his identity, and the song avoids the usual moral message about mountaintop rakes. We would expect such techniques from the Muse of tradition, but not from the Broadway stage.

"Although usually called 'Reynardine' by Folk Revival singers, the common title of this piece in tradition is 'Rinordine' and under that title it is Laws P15. Laws lists versions from Arkansas, Kansas, Kentucky, Michigan, Missouri, North Carolina, Ohio, Vermont, and West Virginia, as well as Nova Scotia. He also lists assorted broadsheets and songsters. Interestingly, only one version from Britain is known.

"The above version# is unusual in that it lacks the ending in which Rinordine disappears, leaving the girl to warn others against the mysterious (supernatural?) figure.

"Despite its British 'look,' it seems likely that the Broadway version mentioned by Lyle is in fact the original, or nearly, and that all the traditional versions derive from that."

#Rhinordine

As I rode out this morning,
Three miles from old Saint Croix,
I spied a farmer's daughter
Here on this mountain high.
Her ivory cheeks, her ruby lips,
Her face it looked so fair,
I said, "my pretty maiden,
I'm pleased to meet you here."

She said, "young man, be civil,
my company forsake;
I have a great opinion,
I fear you are some rake.
And if my parents should hear of this,
My life they would destroy,
For the keeping of bad company,
Here on this mountain high."

I said, "Kind miss, I am a bum,
Although I'm not to blame;
I'm begging for forgiveness,
All in the judge's name.
Your beauty has concerned me,
I cannot pass you by;
With my rifle I will guide you,
Here on this mountain high."

And then this pretty little thing,
She fell into a daze.
With eyes as bright as emeralds,
How fondly she did gaze.
She said, "young man, be civil,
And I will be your bride."
And then she fell into my arms
Here on this mountain high.

I had but kissed her once or twice,
Till she come to again,
And said to me so kindly,
"Kind sir, what is your name?"
"My name is nothing extry,
Although I'm sure you'll find,
Written down in Ancient History,
My name is Rhinordine."

Thread #68760   Message #3730549
Posted By: Felipa
15-Aug-15 - 04:02 PM
Thread Name: Chord Search Help - help on figuring out chords
Subject: RE: Chord Req: Chord Search Help

I would have like to add this link to the thread on origins of Reynardine or the one requesting information on Reynardine. Both are closed, I know not why.

Rhinordine http://www.lizlyle.lofgrens.org/RmOlSngs/RTOS-Rhinordine.html suggests the song is not so old.

"Although usually called 'Reynardine' by Folk Revival singers, the common title of this piece in tradition is 'Rinordine' and under that title it is Laws P15. Laws lists versions from Arkansas, Kansas, Kentucky, Michigan, Missouri, North Carolina, Ohio, Vermont, and West Virginia, as well as Nova Scotia. He also lists assorted broadsheets and songsters. Interestingly, only one version from Britain is known.

The above version is unusual in that it lacks the ending in which Rinordine disappears, leaving the girl to warn others against the mysterious (supernatural?) figure.

Despite its British 'look,' it seems likely that the Broadway version mentioned by Lyle is in fact the original, or nearly, and that all the traditional versions derive from that."



    Hi, Felipa - the Origins thread was apparently closed because of an onslaught of Spam in 2007. I reopened the thread, hoping the Spam thread is past.
    -Joe Offer-


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Subject: RE: reynardine
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 15 Aug 15 - 05:52 PM

Just about every British printer of broadsides printed it, from the late 18thc onwards. Almost all versions mention Pomeroy (Co. Tyrone) in the first line. I haven't got any early Irish printings but no doubt they existed. The normal route for such material was originated in Ireland (often the north) and brought into England via Liverpool and dispersed from there northwards and southwards and fairly soon across the Atlantic.. The earliest version I've seen is titled 'Rinordin, or The Mountains High' (British library).

Early 19thc versions were printed by Nathaniel Coverley of Boston and then by the 1840s in such as The Forget-me-not Songster, but still with Pomeroy as the setting.

The above suggestion is somewhat bizarre!


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Subject: RE: Origins: Reynardine: Info?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 16 Aug 15 - 01:35 AM

I combined threads, so Steve's comment about the bizarre suggestion might be hard to understand. I think he's talking about this message, which was posted above. Martin Ryan and Malcolm Douglas comment on it above, both with at least mild disbelief:
    Thread #4260   Message #728950
    Posted By: whitefell
    13-Jun-02 - 01:42 AM
    Thread Name: Origins: Reynardine: Info?
    Subject: reynardine (again)

    Hello, I'm familiar with this song. Still, I'm not sure, is this a bit of a lycanthropic theme (werewolf or animal)? I've always liked it and the tune,I''m trying to write a short story about a shapeshifter and wonder, would the lyrics be appropriate? patti I know you all have discussed this song before, have looked at the message threads. Still, I wonder if anyone has something new to add. Thanks

Is that the one you're referring to, Steve?

-Joe-


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Subject: RE: Origins: Reynardine: Info?
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 16 Aug 15 - 04:51 AM

Yes, my comment is on the suggestion that the song could somehow be based on something from Broadway. To me the original is much more likely to be Irish.


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