Baptist Sunday School words offensive?

Subject: Baptist Sunday Sunday words offensive???
From: GUEST,Allan S.
Date: 22 Jan 02 - 04:16 PM

I am putting together a booklet of songs sung at a summer camp over the years. When I included the song "The Baptist Sunday School" The cho. as follows 'Old folks young folks everybody come join the Baptist Sunday School and have a lot if fun Park your razors and chewing gum at the door And you'll hear stories that you never heard before There is nothing offensive in the verses, However someone claimed that the title and cho. COULD be offensive to anyone who is Baptist. I would appreciate some feedback on this. We all sang it at a Congregational church camp years ago. THank you in advance Allan

Subject: RE: Baptist Sunday Sunday words offensive???
From: wysiwyg
Date: 22 Jan 02 - 04:21 PM

Ask the Baptists. By this I mean, if you do not know any Baptists well enough TO ask them about this-- you may not (yet) be an accurate judge of what would be offensive in your neck of the woods.

Oh, and can I get a copy of the songbook??? We do a lot of stuff in our Saturday Night Service that would not usually be done in church.

~Susan

Subject: RE: Baptist Sunday Sunday words offensive???
From: Midchuck
Date: 22 Jan 02 - 04:38 PM

You realize, of course, that it was originally "...the Darkies' Sunday School...?" (IIRC, I still have those lyrics in my 1959 Song Fest...). Maybe it's better to offend the Baptists than be accused of racism.

Damn political correctness anyway!

Peter.

Subject: RE: Baptist Sunday Sunday words offensive???
From: GUEST,Les B.
Date: 22 Jan 02 - 05:09 PM

well, change the "razors" to "boxcutters" and see if that offends anyone ?!?

Subject: RE: Baptist Sunday Sunday words offensive???
From: TNDARLN
Date: 22 Jan 02 - 05:41 PM

I'm not familiar with the tune, so I don't know what would fit, but since it was "darkies" to begin with, and "Baptist" now, surely there's a generic, non-offensive substitute word out there....[mission, maybe]

I remember how the song "Methodist Pie" went over like a ton of bricks at a Sunday night/camp meeting-style service at a Methodist Church in my recent past...

And besides, the Baptists could probably use a break.

T: Raised Baptist/In Recovery

Subject: RE: Baptist Sunday Sunday words offensive???
From: Kenny B (inactive)
Date: 22 Jan 02 - 05:47 PM

It's also known over here as the Glasgow Sunday School
ie since PC took over.
I'm sure many places have changed the title to that of their own town or the next town depending on their sense of humour
Why not change it to a place name of your choice, such as any place well known for nonconformist or highly conformist views.

Subject: RE: Baptist Sunday Sunday words offensive???
From: Jimmy C
Date: 22 Jan 02 - 05:50 PM

Just change the words to " Park your roller blades and bikes at the door". or something similar that may rhyme with the rest of the verse. I am not a babtist but I would question the reference to razor blades.

Good luck

Subject: RE: Baptist Sunday Sunday words offensive???
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 22 Jan 02 - 05:51 PM

From a genuine(white) Baptist, my guess is that it would be offensive to black Baptists... I'll ask some of my friends. There are usually ways around offensive words. I sing a line :Makes my lips go flippety flop" instead of "makes a n.....'s lips go flippety flop." I've heard the song, and it's a lot of fun, other than the razors line. They sung it in a Lutheran Church where I was a member (a WHITE Lutheran Church) and I'll be darned if I can remember whether they changed that line.) I'm pretty sure that they did...

Jerry

Subject: RE: Baptist Sunday Sunday words offensive???
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 22 Jan 02 - 05:56 PM

Being a (White) Baptist leading a black gospel quartet and attending an other-than-me all black Baptist church, I can ask some friends. I can just about guarantee that some of them are going to find it offensive. The simplest thing is to change the words in that line. I heard the song sung in a white Lutheran Church I was a member of, and they didn't have the razors line in there, from what I remember. Have 'em check something else. Like their pride. I'll get back to you on this one, or you can e-mail me at [e-mail].
Jerry

Subject: RE: Baptist Sunday Sunday words offensive???
From: Burke
Date: 22 Jan 02 - 06:03 PM

I'm like Jerry. I'm almost positive I sang it but without razorblades. Chewing gum is fine, kids chewing still drives parents crazy, right.

The idea is to mention things that kids might be asked to give up because they're in church. Roller blades might fit the bill. Is your church a non-smoking area? You could use cigarettes.

Subject: RE: Baptist Sunday Sunday words offensive???
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 22 Jan 02 - 06:09 PM

The Baptists aren't alone.

"The Song of the Salvation Army"

"Merrily Danced the Quaker" - though the tune is surely always "Merrily Kissed the Quaker".

"I'd like to be a Mormon"

But this Black Baptist Church, White Baptist Church, Black Methodist Church, White Methodist Church bit is somewhat weird isn't it?

Subject: RE: Baptist Sunday Sunday words offensive???
From: wysiwyg
Date: 22 Jan 02 - 06:44 PM

Nope, it's common, and there are good reasons among the less positive ones, too.

~S~

Subject: RE: Baptist Sunday Sunday words offensive???
From: Mary in Kentucky
Date: 22 Jan 02 - 07:01 PM

Growing up, I hung out with some Baptists (actually all the cute boys went to the Baptist Church) and they taught us this one. But I always thought it was "rasers" as in erasers...you know, throwing them...

I was always impressed with their knowledge of Bible stories.

Subject: RE: Baptist Sunday Sunday words offensive???
From: Deckman
Date: 22 Jan 02 - 07:05 PM

Darned good thread!. Back in the 1950's, I was the "token white" in an all black theatre group in Seattle. Grand time, grand people, grand experiences. Besides being the resident folksinger, I was also being trained as a stage actor. (it must have worked as I've into my second marriage now) ((sorry))! (((sorta)))! The song you posted has very strong overtones of earlier years of racial segregation and black predudice. No doubt about that! It also happens to be a darned good song, especially for youngsters, Baptist or otherwise. It's a real delemma ... what to do? Change the words and bastardize the song? I'm enough of a purist that I won't change the words just to make it acceptable today. The songs I sing now are yesterday history! Don't sing the song? I don't have a good answer. I refuse to sing these songs, and I know many, in public any more. I do however enjoy them to myself, and at the occasional hoot, with my dear friends that also shared those years. If someone has a better answer, I'd love to hear it. CHEERS, Bob

Subject: RE: Baptist Sunday Sunday words offensive???
From: M.Ted
Date: 22 Jan 02 - 08:49 PM

all this talk and no lyrics--somebody, please post!

Subject: RE: Baptist Sunday Sunday words offensive???
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 22 Jan 02 - 09:20 PM

The fact that something is common, or even might have positive aspects, doesn't stop it seeming weird.

I'm used to the idea that there might be congregations which are overwhelmingly something or other, because of the locality - Irish or Italian or Spanish or whatever, and that colours the style and the singing, and maybe the language used, but that's not quite the same thing is it?

The Catholic church I go to probably has as many Philipinos and Vietnamese these days as it has Irish and English, and at present there's a Polish priest. I suppose that'd seem weird in some places.

Subject: RE: Baptist Sunday Sunday words offensive???
From: Dicho (Frank Staplin)
Date: 22 Jan 02 - 09:41 PM

Jery, I'm sure that the reference to razors would have been offensive to members of the Black Baptist Church you sing with, but maybe less so now, since most people don't recall the folding straight razor so common in the 1900-1930 era (maybe longer). It was supposed to be the weapon of choice of the Blacks. A common joke among white kids was that a Black could toss an apple into the air and peel it with his razor before it hit the ground. We had one Black kid in our primary school (1930s) and he assured us that it was true. In those days one of our favorite games at lunch break was mumbleypeg, and he was good at it. Nowadays, kids carrying knives to school get rousted, but at that time, every boy carried a good pocket knife and many of us had hunting knives which we used on the trees.

Subject: RE: Baptist Sunday Sunday words offensive???
From: Deckman
Date: 22 Jan 02 - 09:51 PM

To "M.Ted" ... You asked for a posting. Here's one verse that I remember:

Young folks, old folks, everybody come
Join the Darkey Sunday school and have a lot of fun
Please check your chewing gum and razors at the door
And you'll hear some Bible stories that you never heard before

The verses went on about the ark, and Noah, and animals that came in ... two by two. Bob

Subject: RE: Baptist Sunday Sunday words offensive???
From: wysiwyg
Date: 22 Jan 02 - 10:09 PM

McGrath, I think of it in terms of rich and very different cultures giving rise to inceasingly distilled and distinct flavors of spiritual expression.... these would not transfer between cultures without a sad loss occurring, although one could share across those cultural differences without diluting them. I see these as rational choices to go in the direction of something that satisfies, not away from something feared.

Weird? Wondrous, I think.

~Susan

Subject: RE: Baptist Sunday Sunday words offensive???
From: Deckman
Date: 22 Jan 02 - 10:14 PM

You know who I'd like to hear from on this issue ... Guy Carawan! I met him, several time in the fifties, read his book, and he and I did share tales of being single white folks in a black crowd. Guy, if you are a mudcatter, would you jump in here please. Cheers, Bob Nelson, Everett, Washington.

Subject: Lyr Add: BAPTIST SUNDAY SCHOOL
From: GUEST,Boab
Date: 22 Jan 02 - 10:15 PM

As has been said, before things got serious, it was "Darkies", but in order to protect the ethnic integrity of a haggis-bashin' porridge-eater I propose to stick to "Baptist----"

CHORUS: Big folk, wee folk, everybody come.
Join the Baptist Sunday school and join in all the fun.
Bring your stick of chewing gum and squat upon the floor,
And they'll tell you Bible stories like you've never heard before!

Esau was a hunter of the wild and woolly west.
Father left him half the goods and brother took the rest.
Esau thought the title deeds weren't very clear,
So he sold the whole caboodle for a sandwich and a beer. CHORUS

Moses was the leader of the Israelites, y'know.
He tapped the rock with stick to make the water flow.
Then the Israelites they raised a mighty cheer
For instead of flowing water, it flowed Tennant's lager beer! CHORUS

Subject: RE: Baptist Sunday Sunday words offensive???
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 22 Jan 02 - 10:22 PM

I think that it all boils down to different strokes for different folks. Even in matters of faith. I was a member of a Lutheran Church for several years. There was a black Baptist church across the street. I mean, it's a Baptist church that only blacks go to, with a very, very few exceptions. There are Baptist churches that are primarily white. Mostly because of a different style of worship. When I was at the Lutheran Church I got to know some of the singers in the black church, because they wre rebuilding their church and the Lutheran Church was letting them have choir practice there. There was a very positive relationship between the two churches, but not much socializing. I started a series of potluck dinner/gospel sings jointly sponsored and alternately hosted by each church. By the time the Baptist church was finished, I had joined it, and we had a chance to host the dinner and sing at our new church. There was a lot of love, and good fun had at those potluck dinners, and the music was great... half old familiar hymns from the Lutheran church, and the other half old gospel and spirituals. I never saw signs of prejudice, either way. And yet, the two churches worship in their own way, across the street from each other. It's not really "black" or "white." It's more cultural than color.

And, Dicho, that's the first time I've heard anyone mention mummbletypeg in God knows how many years. I was thinking about it myself a couple of days ago. I was thinking I guess I'm an old-timer. I use a push lawn mower and I showel snow. And I wouldn't feel dressed without a jacknife in my pocket. Sounds like you're an old-timer, too.
Jerry

Subject: RE: Baptist Sunday Sunday words offensive???
From: GUEST,Phillip
Date: 22 Jan 02 - 10:24 PM

Don't make any references to hummus or the Shiite Baptists will get upset...

Subject: RE: Baptist Sunday Sunday words offensive???
From: GUEST,Guest
Date: 22 Jan 02 - 10:28 PM

Mary had a baby down by the river Nile She found him in the river playing with a crocodile She took him to her father "said i found him by the shore " tut tut my girl said Pharoh' Ive heard that one before,

Subject: RE: Baptist Sunday Sunday words offensive???
From: Dicho (Frank Staplin)
Date: 22 Jan 02 - 10:55 PM

Yeah, Jerry, I also remember that many of the boys wore lace-up boots in winter. One brand had a little pocket on the side of one boot with a nice knife in it. We wouldn't let our parents buy any other brand. Lots of things have changed.
Amos and Andy were the most popular comedians. Everything stopped for that radio show. Although blackface, the situations- the industrious, level-headed Amos and the boastful, improvident Andy struck a chord with everybody because we either had in our family or knew of people of the same type as the characters in the show. I don't believe that show contributed to racial discrimination, but now that show is deplored. It took the Black comedian Red Foxx to bring back a similar kind of comedy.

Subject: RE: Baptist Sunday Sunday words offensive???
From: NicoleC
Date: 22 Jan 02 - 11:03 PM

Bob (Deckman),

As an audience member, it wouldn't bother me to have the lyrics changed to suit the times -- after all, that's a fine old folk tradition, and the performer's ingenuity can be a lot of fun. But it also seems shame to hide lyrics that are such a reflection of a time and culture, or worse to stop playing a song at all! Perhaps the venue might be a deciding factor. If it's an educational and historic event, then the old lyrics might be best and perhaps even explained.

But for a purely social venue, I think I'd rather hear something that wasn't going to offend the audience members.

Subject: RE: Baptist Sunday Sunday words offensive???
From: Bud Savoie
Date: 23 Jan 02 - 06:37 AM

I learned it as a kid from a Methodist friend, and he sang it: "Come to the Sunday school and have a lot of fun." No color or denomination required.

Some more verses:

Salome was a dancer who did the hootchie-kootch
She wasn't very modest and she didn't wear too mooch [much]
The king said, "Salome, there will be no scandal here,"
But Salome said, "The hell with you" and kicked the chandelier.

Jonah was a sinful man, went out for a swim.
He was minding his own business when a whale swallowed him.
Jonah knew the Coast Guard was way beyond his reach,
So he tickled the whale's belly and it spit him on the beach.

Daniel was a naughty boy, wouldn't obey the king.
King said he wouldn't stand for any such a thing,
So they put him in a lions' den with lions down beneath,
But Daniel was a dentist and he pulled out all their teeth.

Subject: RE: Baptist Sunday Sunday words offensive???
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 23 Jan 02 - 07:01 AM

Hi-cut boots with a pocket in the side for a jacknife. Ahhhhh!! As far as Amos and Andy are concerned, Joe and Frank in my gospel quartet really liked Amos and Andy and weren't offended by it, and they're black. Like everything else, it's impossible to generalize. Frank loved Uncle Dave Macon, and both Frank and Joe loved the Grand Ole Opry and like bluegrass. My feeling is, if you only offend 10% of the audience, why do it? You never know what people have suffered. When Frank and Joe, who are now in their seventies, were growing up down south, they had family members who were ex-slaves who were still living. There were still iron posts and shackles in the center of the town where they chained the slaves before auction. The church that I go to was started by 25 ex-slaves in the back room of a tavern (which wasn't in use Sunday mornings.) Slavery isn't that long ago. Neither are lynchings and the Ku Kux Klan. The line "Come to the Sunday School and have a lot of fun" is probably the way they sang it at a Lutheran church where I heard it a few years ago. A good choice. My group sings a similar song, Who Built The Ark? which I like a lot better, though. Check the thread Oh, Mona for the lyrics...
Jerry

Subject: RE: Baptist Sunday Sunday words offensive???
From: Mary in Kentucky
Date: 23 Jan 02 - 07:47 AM

The words are in the DT here, Darkies' Sunday School, along with a previous discussion.

Subject: RE: Baptist Sunday Sunday words offensive???
From: Genie
Date: 23 Jan 02 - 08:42 AM

What? Change the words to a folk song? Good heavens! What's this world coming to?

Genie §;-)

Subject: RE: Baptist Sunday Sunday words offensive???
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 23 Jan 02 - 02:26 PM

It's traditional to change words, Genie The traditional, authentic folksingers did it all the time.
Jerry

Subject: RE: Baptist Sunday Sunday words offensive???
From: Dicho (Frank Staplin)
Date: 23 Jan 02 - 02:32 PM

Mary, type the title Darkies' Sunday School in the blue box and you get the version you put the clickie to. Type the title in the Digitrad and Forum Search box below it, and the PC version comes up. Ah, the vagaries of Mudcat!
A long discussion from 1999 is Here
That thread is full of emotion. Have we mellowed a bit since 1999?
Thinking back, most of what we heard about PC came from politically-minded heads of various organizations. What do the average people think? Has political correctness helped the racial situation in America? What damage is being done by people like Pat Buchanan who rant against our immigration policies?
This is more thread creep in what started out as a thread on a song. What seems to me to be a trend is the push for immigration changes to increase the "anglo" content, and the fact that the use of second languages is being discouraged, particularly among Latinos. Perhaps a discussion thread would be a better place for these ruminations.

Subject: RE: Baptist Sunday Sunday words offensive???
From: GUEST,Allan S.
Date: 23 Jan 02 - 07:42 PM

First of all, I must thank everyone for all the help with the song. Actually, I have the IOCA Song fest. When I was in the Outing Club U-Conn 1952-7 we sang it as the Baptist Sunday School. I didn't realize it started life as the Darkie Sunday School. So the kids age 9-19 would never know that.

I have changed the chorus as follows:

Young folks, old folks, every body come
Come and join our Sunday School and have a lot of fun.
Park your chewing gum and sodas at the door.
And you will hear bible stories that you never heard before.

That minor change should make everyone happy.

Wow I remember those "High cut" boots with the pocket knife pocket. The strange thing is that children don't know how to use or much less sharpen a knife blade. In one of my art classes I was teaching on the high school level not one of the students knew how to sharpen a pencil with a knife. My grandfather gave me my first pocket knife when I was 9 years old and I have had one in my pocket for the rest of my life. They are a working tool. I can not think of one man in the building trade that does not have and use a knife. In fact, I should change that to any person who works with his hands.
Well thanks again and God bless. Allan

Subject: RE: Baptist Sunday Sunday words offensive???
From: Mary in Kentucky
Date: 23 Jan 02 - 07:51 PM

Just a minor addition to the words...I learned it as "And I'll tell you Bible stories that you never heard before."

Subject: RE: Baptist Sunday Sunday words offensive???
From: Deckman
Date: 23 Jan 02 - 08:45 PM

A couple of comments:

Nicole ... I appreciate your comments. I'm at the age where changing the words for political correctness doesn't come easy. And like you say, rather than offend, I'll skip that song. I do NOT like to be offensive.

Jerry ... I'm curious what town, and what era, these two churchs were located in.

Thanks, Bob

Subject: RE: Baptist Sunday Sunday words offensive???
From: GUEST,McGrath of Harlow
Date: 23 Jan 02 - 08:48 PM

Somehow I'd always assumed that the Glesga version was the original, since the razor was a cultural weapon of sorts there, along with the bayonet for the rougher element.

Subject: RE: Baptist Sunday Sunday words offensive???
From: kendall
Date: 23 Jan 02 - 10:05 PM

When I was a boy, I used to jump back and forth between the Baptist church, and the Mormon church. The Mormons sang "Darkies", but, in the song "Betsy from Pike" they never sang the verse that goes, They stopped at Salt Lake to inquire the way, and Brigham declared that sweet Betsy should stay, but, Betsy was frightened and she ran like a deer, while Brigham stood pawing the ground like a steer.

Subject: RE: Baptist Sunday Sunday words offensive???
From: Haruo
Date: 23 Jan 02 - 11:30 PM

I'm a Baptist (albeit of the radical-liberal-gay-hugging variety that some of my co-believers deny has a right to the label) and I find nothing offensive about the fact that there is a version of this song that uses "Baptist" in place of "Darkies'". I would not be offended at hearing it sung. But then there are Baptists who will be offended at anything you might name, probably including some who will be offended if you don't sing "their theme song"... However, I find the spelling "babtist" offensive. FWIW. (Not very offensive, just mildly so.)

Liland

Self-Appointed Unordained Spelling Monitor at BaptistLife.com

Subject: RE: Baptist Sunday Sunday words offensive???
From: GUEST,Boab
Date: 24 Jan 02 - 01:29 AM

I think we should stop and consider! It's a kind of funny ditty which pops up in various venues. Traditional? Well, if ye like; but to this fella it's like a lot of other scraps of song that appear on the menu from the past----it would do no harm to leave it there[even if it is harmless]. It has just about the depth of a puddle----

Subject: RE: Baptist Sunday Sunday words offensive???
From: Genie
Date: 24 Jan 02 - 01:42 AM

Jerry R.,
My tongue was firmly implanted in my cheek when I posted above.

Kendall, I love your Mormon verse to "Sweet Betsy!"

Liland,
As a Baptist PK who did college at Baylor and William Jewell, I'm not easily offended by "Babdist" jokes. One of the best athletic "spirit ribbons" I ever saw was one that SMU sported when Baylor played them in football in 1959. Baylor had a spirit ribbon with a bear shoving a horse into a corral, with the caption "Corral the Mustangs." SMU's showed a horse stuffing a bear down the toilet, with the caption "John the Baptists!"

BTW, do you know why Baptists don't make love standing up?

Because it might lead to dancing!

Genie §;-)

Subject: RE: Baptist Sunday Sunday words offensive???
From: Deckman
Date: 24 Jan 02 - 01:47 AM

To "Guest Boab", I really like your phrase ..."it has the depth of a puddle." Well said! However I have to respectfully dissagree. This song, The Darky Sunday School, has an incredible history and import. Let me try to explain. Because if my circumstances, I do a LOT of singing at olde folks homes, nursing homes, etc. My Father is 93, my Mother 88. I am around OLDE folks all the time. I am often asked if I know this song or that. The Darky Sunday School is often requested. I do believe this song is a perfect example of the inherent sterotyping that occurs. When I am asked to sing this "ditty," I don't, because I don't want to perpetuate it. It will take several more generations for these songs to die out, but they will. Again, I'm NOT trying to start a fight, but I DO think this song has more depth and history to it. Respectfully, Bob

Subject: RE: Baptist Sunday Sunday words offensive???
From: Hrothgar
Date: 24 Jan 02 - 04:36 AM

I learned it as "little Sunday school" thirty-five years ago, and I don't remember much political correctness going around then.

Is this a solution for somebody?

Subject: RE: Baptist Sunday Sunday words offensive???
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 24 Jan 02 - 04:57 AM

Bob: The two churches I mentioned have an interesting, parallel history. They're both about the same age... each is over 100 years old and are among the oldest churches in the state. Union Baptist Church was started by 25 ex-slaves in the back of a tavern, and St. John's Lutheran Church was started by a handful of Swedish immigrants. Two small groups of people who came together to worship with a shared heritage. Each church tries to remember where they came from. Union Baptist had a full length, professionally written play on New Year's Eve about the history of slavery and the excitement of the "Watch Night" in 1962, when the slaves were freed at midnight. St. John's celebrates Santa Lucia, a folk tale/myth about a woman who was burned at the stake for being a Christian. Now, St. John's is making their space available for a small group of Czechoslovakians who are trying to start a church.
Both churches are in Stamford, Connecticut, across the street from each other. The Gospel Sings that I organized ended three years ago when my wife and I moved to Derby, CT. This is serious thread wander, so I'll add anything else in a p.m.

Genie: I noticed the tongue. Same about being dead. Sally Rogers added a verse to a song that I wrote once, and was mortified to find out that I had written the song. She thought it was traditional. Guess it's all right to change lyrics of dead folks..
Jerry Jerry

Subject: RE: Baptist Sunday Sunday words offensive???
From: jup
Date: 24 Jan 02 - 04:06 PM

Oh! Tolerance Tolerance where is Tolerance! Why don't Baptists believe in premarital sex ? Ans. Because it could lead to danceing!!! Jup.

Subject: RE: Baptist Sunday Sunday words offensive???
From: Joe_F
Date: 25 Jan 02 - 12:36 PM

I learned the song from a black man who had been a minister (I forget which denomination). He made it "Darky Sunday School". But that was 1951, and this is now.

Subject: RE: Baptist Sunday Sunday words offensive???
From: Dicho (Frank Staplin)
Date: 25 Jan 02 - 07:45 PM

McGrath, an old Negro expression, said of a man about to get into trouble, is that "He has been drinkin' razor soup." From your comments, there is a parallel tradition in Glasgow.

Subject: RE: Baptist Sunday Sunday words offensive???
From: Mary in Kentucky
Date: 25 Jan 02 - 08:11 PM

Funny how expressions have different meanings to different cultures and generations. I always heard "razor soup" as, "Looks like he's had his razor soup today." meaning someone who is sharp, quick on the uptake, ready to spar, can't get one over on him.

Subject: Lyr Add: DRINKING RAZOR SOUP
From: Dicho (Frank Staplin)
Date: 26 Jan 02 - 12:14 AM

Mary, I found this little rhyme. Its variations could explain how "razor soup" could get two meanings. Thomas W. Talley, a black Chemistry professor at Fisk Univ., collected Negro Folk Rhymes and published them in 1922.
DRINKING RAZOR SOUP

He's been drinkin' razzer soup;
Dat sharp Nigger, black like ink.
If he don't watch dat tongue o' his,
Somebody'll hurt 'im 'for' he think.

He cain't drive de pigeons t' roost,
Dough he talk so big an' smart.
Hain't got de sense to tole 'em in.
Cain't more 'an drive dat ole mule chyart.

Most of the rhymes were collected before 1920, so the song and talk of Southern Negroes, 1900-1940, are captured in his book. The "N" word was used frequently by them. It had several senses, difficult for someone like me who is not Black to understand. It meant "us together against them," it meant "low-down no-'counts," (unlike the right-living speaker), it was a lament about insignificance and status, and, depending on the situation, probably had other shades of meaning as well. Perhaps only the Negro convicts on the large prison farms use it regularly now.
The book has been enlarged with many more rhymes from Talley's notebooks and published by The University of Tennessee in 1991, "Negro Folk Rhymes." Discussions by Talley and C. K. Wolfe contribute to a most interesting book.

Subject: RE: Baptist Sunday School words offensive?
From: GUEST,Another Allan S (FL)
Date: 07 Dec 08 - 06:10 PM

Gee, it's great to find this thread, though apparently the conversation started years ago and nobody who started it is reading it now.

My scoutmaster taught us that song as Darky Sunday School. When I sang it for my kids I cleaned it up similarly to the first Allan S post: Join us at the Sunday School and have a lot of fun. I didn't bother with the chewing gum and razors line. Figured it would go over their heads anyway.

Here's a verse we sang (to add to the collection):

Adam was the first man that ever was invented.
He lived all alone and he was discontented.
All night long you could hear him moan,
"I'm gettin' mighty tired of livin' all alone."

And another version of Salome:

Salome was a dancer; she danced the hoochy-cooch.
She danced before the kings and queens and didn't wear so mooch.
The queen said, "Stop! We'll have no scandal here."
Salome said, "The heck we won't!" and kicked the chandelier.

Subject: RE: Baptist Sunday School words offensive?
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 07 Dec 08 - 06:45 PM

Baptist hymns from 1846- sure to put the congregation to sleep:
"Federal Street Baptist Sabbath School" - At American Memory.

Subject: RE: Baptist Sunday School words offensive?
From: Genie
Date: 07 Dec 08 - 08:53 PM

Thanks for that link, Q.
Interesting to compare the mid-19th C. Baptist hymns with the ones I grew up hearing and singing in the mid-20th C and those that are most popular now. At least one of those 19th C. hymns is still sung, sans the chorus, in many Baptist churches.

As for making the words to this old racist song more appropriate for Baptists, I'd say all you need do is change "razor blades" to "dancing shoes." Should work just fine!

G

Subject: RE: Baptist Sunday School words offensive?
From: GUEST,mcp the hasher
Date: 26 Oct 09 - 05:12 PM

Below is the Politically-correct version of "Darkie Sunday School" which is still not appropriate for a christian church. This song was never meant for the church community and changing it otherwise would be akin to changing "There once was a man from Nantucket" to be a church song!

Chorus: Young folk, old folk,
Everybody come,
To the country Sunday School,
And we'll have lots of fun.
Bring your sticks of chewing gum,
And sit upon the floor,
And we'll tell you Bible stories,
That you never heard before.

Now Adam was the first man,
So we're lead to believe,
He walked into the garden,
And bumped right into Eve,
There was no one there to show him,
But he quickly found the way,
And that's the very reason,
Why we're singing here today.

The Lord said unto Noah,
"It's going to rain today,"
So Noah built a bloody great Ark,
In which to sail away.
The animals went in two by two,
But soon got up to tricks,
So, although they came in two by two,
They came out six by six.

Now Moses in the bulrushes,
Was all wrapped up in swathe,
Pharaoh's daughter found him,
When she went down there to bathe.
She took him back to Pharaoh,
And said, "I found him on the shore"
And Pharaoh winked his eye and said,
"I've heard that one before."

King Solomon and King David,
Lived most immoral lives,
Spent their time a-chasing,
After other people's wives.
The Lord spoke unto both of them,
And it worked just like a charm,
'Cos Solomon wrote the Proverbs,
And David wrote the Psalms.

Now Samson was an Israelite,
And very big and strong,
Delilah was a Philistine,
Always doing wrong.
They spent a week together,
But it didn't get very hot,
For all he got was short back and sides,
And a little bit off the top.

Subject: RE: Baptist Sunday School words offensive?
From: GUEST,Andrew Nelson
Date: 03 Jan 10 - 01:46 PM

This is one of my childhood street songs (Glasgow, Scotland, 1940 - 50). The chorus ran:

"Young folks, old folks, everybody come,
Join the Darkies' Sunday School and make yourself at home.
Buy a stick of chewing gum and sit upon the floor
And we'll tell you bible stories that you never heard before."

... and the verses I remember :-

Now Moses was the leader of a large and mighty flock,
He tried to get some water from the middle of a rock
But when the rock was opened, there rose a mighty cheer,
For, instead of flowing water it was Tennents' Lager Beer!

Esau was a farmer in the wild and woolly west,
His father gave him half the ranch, his brother got the rest.
Esau thought this funny and so very queer
That he swapped the whole caboodle for a whisky and a beer.

While Tennents beer is brewed in Glasgow, 'caboodle' is hardly a Scottish word, and the reference to the wild and woolly west leads me to believe that 'my' version is a street version of the original gospel song, and may have been brought over by American servicemen during WW2.

While I wouldn't use the term 'darkie' now, in those more innocent days it was perfectly acceptable in a society in which 99% of the population were Scots or of Irish descent and the remainder English.
Where we had to be very careful was in our dealings with others who were 'on the other side', ie the great Catholic/Protestant divide - it was almost literally a divide; until I was 12, I knew more Jews than I did Catholics, inasmuch as there was a Jewish girl in my class at school.

I left the city 50 years ago and understand that things are better now.

Subject: RE: Baptist Sunday School words offensive?
From: Sandy Mc Lean
Date: 03 Jan 10 - 02:15 PM

McGrath said:
"But this Black Baptist Church, White Baptist Church, Black Methodist Church, White Methodist Church bit is somewhat weird isn't it?"

Three years ago I was traveling through rural Virginia on a Sunday morning near 11 AM. Two churches stood back to back on what seemed to be the same plot of land. Both churches were Baptist and people were entering each for the morning service. All entering one were white and all entering the other were black. There were also two cemeteries there as well. I wondered at the time if they expected to be separated in Heaven as they were on earth!

Subject: RE: Baptist Sunday School words offensive?
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 03 Jan 10 - 03:08 PM

Andrew, another version of Glasgow Sunday School posted in thread 13087.
Sunday School

Subject: RE: Baptist Sunday School words offensive?
From: robomatic
Date: 03 Jan 10 - 03:37 PM

Is this to the same tune as the Captain's pet monkey washing up on the shore in Hartleypool?

"Young folks, old folks, everyone on feet,
come and see the frenchy that's landed on the beach
'e's got long arms, a great long tail, and he's covered down in hair
we think that 'e's a spy so we'll 'ang 'im in the square!"

This is very UN PC towards the French, but it's a rollicking good song!

Subject: RE: Baptist Sunday School words offensive?
From: Herga Kitty
Date: 03 Jan 10 - 07:36 PM

Yes Robomatic, it's the same tune as the Hartlepool monkey song, but I think the first line is everyone and each...

Kitty

Subject: RE: Baptist Sunday School words offensive?
From: Cuilionn
Date: 04 Jan 10 - 11:03 AM

Sheena Wellington has this one as "The Little Sunday School" on her STRONG WOMEN album (Greentrax CDTRAX 094). The album is a live recording at the Nitten Folk Club and the audience response to this particular song is very enthusiastic, with hoots, cheers, and wild applause at the end--no tepid response for a "cleaned up" version here!

In the liner notes, she writes, "a short version of a very long song learned in early childhood from my father...It has several variants in the UK and North America. I have always believed God has a sense of humour!"

Here are the lyrics as she sings them:

Young folk, old folk, everybody come
to our little Sunday School and you shall have some fun
Bring your toffee apples and sit down upon the floor
And we'll tell you Bible stories that you've never heard before!

Adam was the first man so we all believe
One morning he was filleted and introduced to Eve
He had no-one to tell him but he soon found out the way
And that's the only reason we're all living here today!

Esau was a hunter with a very hairy chest
His chest it was so hairy he'd no need to wear a vest
His father left him property not far away from Norwich
But the damn fool went and swapped it for a basinful of porridge.

Jonah was a traveller with a tendency to sail
He went and booked his passage on a Transatlantic whale
The atmospheric pressure got too heavy for his chest
So Jonah pushed the button and the whale did all the rest.

Pharoah had a daughter with a very winning smile
She found the infant Moses in the rushes by the Nile
She took him home to her papa who said he believed her tale
It was just about as probable as Jonah and the whale.

Moses was a prophet of the Israeletic stock
With his mighty umbrel he struck water from the rock
The multitude around him, they gave a mighty cheer
But they were disappointed when they found it wasn't beer.

Subject: RE: Baptist Sunday School words offensive?
From: GUEST,Colin
Date: 04 Jan 10 - 05:24 PM

Interesting thread, and still going. I remember singing this in sessions in the Kings Arms, Bangor, N Wales and this is how it was given to me by the singer, Derek Froome of Cheshire:

The Darkies' Sunday School
This may be in print, possibly in a Song Book issued by Hackney (London) Scouts, who were famous for their singing between the wars: no further suggestions. I learnt it orally from several sources.

Those who have no feeling for blason populaire may cavil at the title, & the use of the term in the chorus: let them corrode in corners: we know what we mean, & what we do not mean.

Chorus

Old folks, young folks, everbody come,
Join the darkies' Sunday School & make yourselves at home:
Bring your sticks of chewing gum, sit down upon the floor,
And we'll tell you bible stories that you never heard before.

Sung as an introduction, & between each verse. May also be used after the last verse has been sung by the singer, or after additions by bystanders, which should be carefully recorded, together with variants. I usually begin with Adam for 'historical' reasons, but the rest usually come as remembered rather than as a true chronological series. Chacun a son gout. Punctuation omitted.

Oh Adam was the first man, & he lived all alone
Till Eve was manufactured out of his left funny-bone
Then old Adam had no cause to fret & grieve
For he flirted all day long in the Garden of Eden with Eve

Esau was a cowboy from the wild & woolly west
His father gave him half the farm, his brother Jake the rest
But Esau didn't like it, the title deeds weren't clear
So he swapped the whole caboodle for a sandwich & a beer

Goliath was a strong man, a mighty man of power
Whose head was on a level with the top of Blackpool tower
He swanked about an awful lot & swore he'd never die
Till David came with half a brick & hit him in the eye.

Shadrach, Meshach & Abednego
They none of them could please the King, so of course they had to go
He put them in the furnace to burn them up like chaff
But they wore asbestos underpants & gave the King the laugh

Job was a patriarch who suffered many toils
He wrote a book to tell us he was covered all in boils
But when the Jewish doctors had given up all hope
Job went and cured himself with Cuticura Soap

Solomon & David lived most immoral lives
They used to gad about the place with other people's wives
But when they got to middle age they suffered from the qualms
One of them wrote The Proverbs & the other wrote The Psalms

Elijah was a prophet of very great renown
He ran a travelling circus which he took from town to town
He worked a lot of magic on a Sunday afternoon
And went up in the evening in a patent fire-balloon

Ruth was a flapper of a very modern type
She often smoked Wild Woodbines & at other times a pipe
Her skirts were of the shortest & she often 'gave the glad'
Till the Salvation Army came & saved her from the bad

Jehu had a chariot of seven horse-power
He used to dash about the place at ninety miles an hour
But he had to put the brakes on when going through Jezreel
For little bits of Jezebel were sticking to the wheel

Samson was a boxer of the Jackie Johnson school
He slew ten thousand Philistines with the jawbone of a mule
But a lassie called Delilah came & filled him up with gin
And when she'd shaved his whiskers off the Peelers ran him in

Only partially known or remembered

Moses was the leader of the Israelitish flock
They hadn't any water ..?. rock
Moses didn't like it so he gave the rock a smite
And out came flowing Buchanan's Black & White

Joseph was a dreamer who suffered from swelled head
He used to wear jazz pullovers in yellow, green & red
... [much desired]

Cain & Abel... Cain wasn't able so Abel got the cane [final line]

Subject: RE: Baptist Sunday School words offensive?
From: GUEST,Jody
Date: 16 May 10 - 08:02 PM

When I learned it, it was:
"Young folks, old folks, everybody come
Join the happy Sunday School and have a lot of fun.
Please check your chewing gum and checkers at the door,
We're gonna tell you Bible stories that you never heard before."

I didn't know so many verses existed.

Subject: RE: Baptist Sunday School words offensive?
From: GUEST,Ann
Date: 14 Mar 12 - 05:01 AM

We've changed the title to
The Monday Sunday School

and adapted the chorus and some of the verses

My Dad's version is now considered politically incorrect so will not repeat it here as it is a version of what is here already. He too altered bits to make it less offensive but it would now be considered so.

My altered version to fit in with an 'old folks get together held on a Monday'.

Young Folks, Old folks everybody come
Join the Monday Sunday School and make yourselves at home
Bring your sticks and walking frames, find welcome at the dioor
And I'll tell you Bible stories that you've never heard before.

Subject: RE: Baptist Sunday School words offensive?
From: Mo the caller
Date: 14 Mar 12 - 10:00 AM

I don't think you can remove the offensiveness of this song by changing odd words.
It's not Baptist /Darky /razors /...., it's the whole nudge,nudge,wink,wink approach to Bible stories that would offend anyone who held them dear.

I am no longer a believer, but I still find it distasteful.

Subject: RE: Baptist Sunday School words offensive?
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Sep 15 - 09:27 PM

I think I have a contemporary substitute that will fit just fine:

"Kindly check your chewing gum and cell phones that the door"

Subject: RE: Baptist Sunday School words offensive?
From: GUEST,ahknowu
Date: 15 Apr 17 - 12:52 AM

I find this"thead amazing; l learned it in 1954...never once considered it racist. We learned it at MYF - never any specific race or religion noted.   I recently changed the chorus to "please park your cell phones and I-pads at the door .......................

Subject: RE: Baptist Sunday School words offensive?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 15 Apr 17 - 02:03 AM

Well, it's hard for a song titled "Darkies' Sunday School" NOT to be offensive. The song has been euphemized to other things. That's happened to The Cat Came Back, Short'nin' Bread, and many others. Is it OK to sing songs that come from racist roots?

I think it's a valid question with a not-so-clear answer.

That being said, I do sing "The Cat Came Back," "Short'nin' Bread," and Old Black Joe.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: Baptist Sunday School words offensive?
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 15 Apr 17 - 07:20 AM

Baptists or worse are nutty as a fruitcake anyway!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Subject: RE: Baptist Sunday School words offensive?
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 15 Apr 17 - 07:42 AM

Some people obviously have nothing better to do than pontificate on behalf of others who most likely couldn't give a monkeys about it!!!

Subject: RE: Baptist Sunday School words offensive?
From: Mo the caller
Date: 15 Apr 17 - 09:05 AM

"I don't think you can remove the offensiveness of this song by changing odd words.
It's not Baptist /Darky /razors /...., it's the whole nudge,nudge,wink,wink approach to Bible stories that would offend anyone who held them dear.

I am no longer a believer, but I still find it distasteful."

I notice no-one has replied to my 5 year old comment.

Subject: RE: Baptist Sunday School words offensive?
From: Mo the caller
Date: 15 Apr 17 - 09:09 AM

Bit like an Anglican vicar in a Ceilidh band that I called with who had a habit of asking everyone to join in the chorus of John Barleycorn, sung to the tune of We Plough the Fields & Scatter, when we were playing for harvest Ceilidhs.
It really didn't go down well at the Salvation Army.

Subject: RE: Baptist Sunday School words offensive?
From: Kenny B (inactive)
Date: 15 Apr 17 - 06:05 PM

Glasgow Sunday School has been on youtube for 6 years and nobody has complained

Subject: RE: Baptist Sunday School words offensive?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 15 Apr 17 - 06:53 PM

Colin gives a nice selection of lyrics up above (click). As somebody who spent 8 years in seminary, the verses just seem cute to me. I don't see them as offensive at all, Mo. I do concede that some might take offense at the derivation from "Darkies' Sunday School." But many songs from racist times, used racist terms with no intention of being hateful. I think those songs can be cleaned up and used without causing offense to anyone but the most sensitive people.
-Joe-

There's a nice rendition of "Mormon Sunday School" here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wZi9FNbhNj4

Subject: RE: Baptist Sunday School words offensive?
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 18 Apr 17 - 07:55 AM

For those who might want the song to be offensive . . .
maybe we need an update.

Salome was a dancer who did the hootchie-kootch
She wasn't very modest and she didn't wear too mooch [much]
(As) the king's erotic dancer she spurned the wedding bed.
The boys agreed that all Salome ever wants is 'head'.

The update also fits the original story better!

Subject: RE: Baptist Sunday School words offensive?
From: GUEST,thedina
Date: 02 Dec 17 - 08:12 PM

I learned this song as a young kid with most of my cousins (10 +) cold winter nights while my Grandmother Nanny played by ear what she could remember (at the time all of it). Thank you for this thread. I could not remember the name, but could remember the chewing gum and razor blades at the door.
I think she called it the Baptist Sunday school song. My parents I assume would have said something to end the singing if it had been in the original form.
Music was a big part of that side of my family. Can't wait to see my mom's reaction when I start playing this tune. Yes, I'll bring up to date lyrics.
I've searched for just over 15 years for this song.
thank you for the links, lyrics, and wonderful conversation around the changing social atmosphere and songs lyrics. :)

Subject: RE: Baptist Sunday School words offensive?
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Dec 17 - 08:58 PM

When my mother sang it, it was "Darky Sunday School", which is, of course, offensive, Darky being a term for African Americans. I've also heard it sung as Mormon Sunday School. I wrote my own version of the chorus:
Young folks old folks everybody come
Come into the TV room and make yourself to home.
We'll watch the televangelist, he's on on Channel Four.
And you'll hear some Bible stories like you never heard before.

This might offend televangelists. But I really don't care.

Subject: RE: Baptist Sunday School words offensive?
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Dec 17 - 05:03 AM

David was a General, Uriah was a Sub
David saw Uriah's wife in her evening tub
David sent Uriah to explore a front line trench
Uriah got the hand grenade and David got the wench.

Subject: RE: Baptist Sunday School words offensive?
From: GUEST,Senoufou
Date: 04 Dec 17 - 06:05 AM

My racist father used to sing just the chorus to me:-

Old folks, young folks, everybody come.
Join the darkies' Sunday School and make yourselves at home.
Bring your sticks of chewing gum and sit upon the floor,
And I'll tell you Bible stories that you've never heard before.

Two points: One obviously didn't 'check in' the chewing gum but chewed it in situ so to speak.

And although the 'darkies' bit is racist and offensive, I personally feel that more offensive still is the implication that the 'darkies' distorted the Bible stories and made fun of them. The inference was that their church was ridiculous and unworthy of respect.

In those days (very early fifties) there was a general feeling round our way that 'darkies' were inferior, rather amusing and objects of fun.
Not a nice view...

Subject: RE: Baptist Sunday School words offensive?
From: leeneia
Date: 06 Dec 17 - 11:18 AM

In the 1960's my sister brought this song home from a Lutheran camp. It didn't have any label for the Sunday school, and given the tune, a label wouldn't go in naturally.

Young folks, old folks, everybody come.
Come to our Sunday school and have a lot of fun...

Later I encountered the tune in folk-dance class. It sounded 19th-Century, may have been a schottisch.

Subject: RE: Baptist Sunday School words offensive?
From: Donuel
Date: 06 Dec 17 - 09:20 PM

Protecting the myth and mythos of a religion is a personal decision. But I am about to say the obvious. This time with regards to "no hate intended" and cleaning up lyrics (changing history) changing the people posthumously and lying to make a current legacy to be something it wasn't and isn't.

Obviously one should not sanitize the archives yet we will always have evolving songs. Somehow the original should be referenced. You folks have done a great job of preservation.

I say this at a time when honesty and facts are challenged unto archaic obscurity in the US.

of course it is rare for even 2 people to agree on what is truth.

Mudcat is cherished for the truth it preserves.

Subject: RE: Baptist Sunday School words offensive?
From: leeneia
Date: 08 Dec 17 - 09:27 AM

Why assume lyrics have been cleaned up, sanitized or bowdlerized. Maybe they were pleasant to start with and some smart alec changed them to be mean or bigoted. It happens all the time.

Many so-called parodies are nasty.

Subject: RE: Baptist Sunday School words offensive?
From: GUEST
Date: 08 Dec 17 - 11:22 AM

On words being offensive we once had a complaint when playing across the pond at a rather well known Canadian festival. The song in question was Waxies Dargle. The offending verse was the second:

Says my aul' wan to your aul' wan
"Will ye go to the Galway races?"
Says your aul' wan to my aul' wan,
"I'll hawk me aul' man's braces.
I went up to Capel Street
To the Jewish moneylenders
But he wouldn't give me a couple of bob
For the aul' man's red suspenders."

This Dublin song written sometime in the nineteenth century was a children's song and by the time we performed it had been in existence for over a hundred years at least. We told those who brought the complaint to us to basically eff-off and that we would not change the words of a song to suit political correctness, the song is "Traditional" and would only be performed by us in it's original form.

Subject: RE: Baptist Sunday School words offensive?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 08 Dec 17 - 03:49 PM

Leeneia, I think it's clear that "Baptist Sunday School" is a bowdlerization of "Darkies' Sunday School," which certainly seems racist to me.
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: Baptist Sunday School words offensive?
From: GUEST,Observer
Date: 09 Dec 17 - 04:07 AM

"I personally feel that more offensive still is the implication that the 'darkies' distorted the Bible stories and made fun of them. The inference was that their church was ridiculous and unworthy of respect."

The only place I have ever heard this song sung was at a Boy Scouts campfire singsong and the title was Darkies Sunday School. The chorus if I remember correctly went:

Young folks, old folks, everybody come
Join the darkies Sunday school
Bring your sticks of chewing gum
And squat upon the floor
And we'll tell you Bible stories
That you've never heard before

The bible stories contained in the verses were humorous and bawdy and certainly not the sort of thing you would hear in any Presbyterian Church in Scotland - far from making fun of "them" and disrespecting "their" church (Whatever that might mean - an Anglican Church, is an Anglican Church, is an Anglican Church irrespective of who walks through it's doors - but nobody can prevent people taking offence if that is what they deliberately set out to do) it is obviously sung from the perspective of a member of this Sunday School ("and WE'LL tell you) and makes the point that attendance is fun, informal and a thoroughly enjoyable experience, which Sunday School in the Presbyterian Church of Scotland most definitely was not in my young days. So if anything we sang the song to have a dig at "our" church (Note: Boy Scout Troops were all affiliated to specific Churches in Scotland when I was growing up - hence the connection).

Subject: RE: Baptist Sunday School words offensive?
From: Lighter
Date: 09 Dec 17 - 12:41 PM

> we would not change the words of a song to suit political correctness, the song is "Traditional" and would only be performed by us in it's original form.

Then why sing it at all? If you're only doing it for fun, the alteration of one word would make no difference.

The point isn't whether the line was offensive to Irish Christians 100 years ago, it's whether it's offensive to a general audience in the modern world - and why you don't care.

Also, please explain what you mean by "political correctness," In this case, we're talking about simple respect for your presumably unbigoted audience.

Are you careful never to change even a single word in any of the trad songs you perform?

Subject: RE: Baptist Sunday School words offensive?
From: GUEST,Observer
Date: 09 Dec 17 - 01:23 PM

To respond to your comments Lighter. The song Waxies Dargle had been in the bands repertoire for over 11 years and the lead singer on that particular song was a native born Dubliner - he sang it the way he had heard it from a very early age.

Why not change it you suggest - the thin end of the wedge and the top of a very slippery slope. As a band that performed at a number of festivals, we have never canvassed either festival organisers, or festival audiences on their likes and preferences in order to avoid offence - that is totally impracticable. We introduce our songs, tell the age of the song and where they are from. If the audience who turn up at folk festivals think that they might be offended by the lyrics of an old song then they are clearly not interested in folk music and are obviously at the wrong festival. Perhaps Jim Carroll could explain it better than I can.

Dublin street songs and such-like from all over the place represent little uncensored vignettes of social, cultural and political history. As such they should not be altered. Were there Jewish moneylenders in Capel Street in Dublin at the time the song was written? Yes there were. Did the poor of Dublin resort to these moneylenders when short of cash? Yes they did. To change the lyrics diminishes the song.

Subject: RE: Baptist Sunday School words offensive?
From: Jeri
Date: 09 Dec 17 - 03:47 PM

If you sing for an audience, you have to be aware who they are. Singing racist lyrics is only going to reflect on you. If you're willing to wear the reputation, sing them.

Subject: RE: Baptist Sunday School words offensive?
From: GUEST,Observer
Date: 09 Dec 17 - 07:32 PM

"I went up to Capel Street
To the Jewish moneylenders"

Is a statement of fact - money lending was their business.

What do we do about Shakespeare's "Merchant of Venice"? What do we do about Charles Dickens "Oliver Twist"? Are either authors banned for being "rascist"? Or should their works be amended to suit whoever might be sitting in the audience of any stage or screen production or anyone who might walk into a bookshop or library? The answer is, of course no they should not. The lyrics of a song dating from a similar period deserve the same degree of respect.

I would like to know how, as a touring band playing at festivals to multi-national audiences ranging from 3000 to 5000 in number, you can "be aware who they are" having arrived on the day and playing two slots then departing to your next engagement.

Perhaps a thread on censorship in folk music and the arts would be a good idea. The subject of many old songs serve as examples of means whereby censorship of the day was circumvented in order to give the "other sides" view of events.

Subject: RE: Baptist Sunday School words offensive?
From: meself
Date: 09 Dec 17 - 08:09 PM

You know - this may surprise - but this very subject has actually been broached before on this very forum. I wouldn't say it's been raised countless times - but it's been raised on more than one or two or even three occasions. And, while I wouldn't say it's been flogged to death, I daresay it's been given more than a couple of love-taps.

Subject: RE: Baptist Sunday School words offensive?
From: Lighter
Date: 09 Dec 17 - 08:21 PM

To say a slope is "slippery" in a case like this says more about us than about the "slope." When a policy reaches the point of absurdity, we can recognize it and change the policy. The opposite view is that we have no judgment whatsoever.

And it *is* all a matter of judgment. If someone doesn't care about making a good part of their audience very uncomfortable (rather than a tiny handful) while encouraging bigotry (inadvertently, I assume), it really is their right. Likewise it's the right of others to suggest they do otherwise.

Moneylending was the business of some Jews. Nothing offensive about the fact. But to emphasize their Jewishness gratuitously in the song emphasizes their "otherness" from the singer and his or her audience, and reminds everyone that "Jewish moneylending" has been a big propaganda point for bigots for centuries.

While "The Merchant of Venice" indeed offends some people today, the fact remains that it's a more substantial work of art that's far more substantial than "The Waxies' Dargle," with plenty more in it to talk about, including just how we're supposed to interpret Shylock, who, unlike the moneylenders in the song, is a fully developed human being rather than a mere throwaway line.

Subject: RE: Baptist Sunday School words offensive?
From: Jeri
Date: 09 Dec 17 - 10:51 PM

I would like to know how, as a touring band playing at festivals to multi-national audiences ranging from 3000 to 5000 in number, you can "be aware who they are" having arrived on the day and playing two slots then departing to your next engagement.

You could ask a festival organizer or some other person if the audience is fond of racist lyrics or not. You're probably safe with ethnomusicologists, or if the event is being hosted by white supremicists, or if they're likely to be too drunk to pay attention to lyrics. Otherwise, newsflash: most people in the US don't appreciate songs containing anachronistic racial slurs.

There. Now you know. You're welcome.

Subject: RE: Baptist Sunday School words offensive?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 10 Dec 17 - 01:41 AM

I don't think that "Darkies' Sunday School" is inherently racist - as long as we do something to get rid of that one word "darkies." There are lots of songs from the past that contain offensive elements. If you can remove those elements in a way that is not obviously prudish, you can end up with a good song.
"The Cat Came Back" is a good example. "Short'nin' Bread" is another, as are some of the Stephen Collins Foster songs. But if bowdlerize we must, we need to do it in a subtle manner.
-Joe-

Subject: RE: Baptist Sunday School words offensive?
From: GUEST,Observer
Date: 10 Dec 17 - 03:22 AM

"You could ask a festival organizer or some other person if the audience is fond of racist lyrics or not." Hilarious Jeri. Tell me how often in everyday life do you wander about asking about other people, complete strangers, permission to do things? How often do you, in asking for that permission, do you ask them questions framed in such a way that their answer would be a foregone conclusion.

As usual what appears to be lacking is a sense of perspective. I do not view Waxies Dargle as being a "racist" song in any way. It humorously describes everyday life of the poor in Dublin in the mid to late 19th century.

Staying with perspective. Consider that the countless number of times throughout the previous eleven years and since that the song has been performed resulted in no complaints at all leads me to dismiss Lighter's, "matter of judgment. If someone doesn't care about making a good part of their audience very uncomfortable".

In the instance I mentioned from experience the festival was huge and our attention was drawn to ONE complaint, the complainant was, of course, not identified but why is it automatically assumed that it came from a member of the audience? It could equally have come from one of the other performers. As to multi-racial and multi-national communities identifying various groups, it is I find most commonly used in the USA. I have often heard people from the USA qualify the "type" of American they are by rather unnecessarily stating that they are Hispanic Americans, Afro-Americans, Irish-Americans.

Another Dublin Street Song, "The Maid of Cabra West", second verse:

"Now he was a nasty piece of goods
Gonzales was his name
And he couldn't wait till he got his hands
On Concepta - who was me dame!
So I made a vow by the Grand Canal
That I would do him in
'Cos I didn't think much of them Portugees
And in particular - I didn't like him!"

The last verse:

Now it's all for the love this fair young maid
And her Portugee sailor boy
For me crime of passion, I've landed in Mountjoy.
And if ever I get out of here,
My life I'll change you'll see
I'll marry some Mot from the Liberties
Who wouldn't look at no Portugee"

It is a very funny song brought to prominence by the singing of Frank Harte, but prior to any rendition the audience is warned that, if it had been penned today it would be considered the most "politically incorrect" song ever written. Fact is - it was NOT penned today - Dublin no longer hosts a community of working Portuguese fishermen - their, by now completely assimilated, descendants still live and work in the city where the song is often heard without complaint.

Going back to Waxies Dargle. If Shane MacGowan and the Pogues saw fit to sing the song "unabridged", then I do not see any reason why we should do any different. Good enough for them, good enough for us.

As stated previously. There nothing anybody can do about certain people who go out and attend any social gathering looking for offence - they will find it.

Subject: RE: Baptist Sunday School words offensive?
From: GUEST,Guest akenaton
Date: 10 Dec 17 - 06:28 AM

I must say that I fully agree with Guest Observer, who makes an excellent point regarding the fact that we are discussing traditional music.
Most traditional music involves proportioning "blame" for the worlds ills on certain sections of society, certain behaviours or certain races. If we like jeri suggests, attempt to censor what has been written and sung, often for centuries, to placate contemporary sensibilities, we may as well dump traditional music in the proverbial dustbin and move on to the rewriting of literature.
Thence on to the burning of books, instruments, performers......and finally to the real final solution.......the end of freedom of expression.

Subject: RE: Baptist Sunday School words offensive?
From: GUEST,Guest akenaton
Date: 10 Dec 17 - 06:41 AM

Forgot to mention, the "Darkies Sunday School" song goes back a least to the revival and probably much further......There was a Glasgow version sung in the clubs of the late 50's and 60's, before Irish traditional music became popular in the UK.

Subject: RE: Baptist Sunday School words offensive?
From: GUEST,Observer
Date: 10 Dec 17 - 06:47 PM

Having looked through this thread, and the thread "Offensive lyrics- edit?" the one thing that becomes obvious is that while the songs I have mentioned are "folk songs" leaning towards the "Traditional" that are performed - The Baptist/Darkies Sunday School cannot be similarly described, or put up as a candidate for serious thought. In a thread below the line Jim Carroll once provided the lyrics of an extremely offensive and racist song by way of an illustrative example. The maximum audience that this song was ever performed to was 46 and in that particular group it was a case of the songwriter preaching to the choir. Doesn't matter how offensive the lyrics of a song are, if the song is never sung, there is simply no exposure of the material for it to do any harm. I have never heard the Baptist/Darkies Sunday School performed or sang by anyone at any sing around, singer's session, folk club, concert or festival - no exposure, no oxygen to give it any traction - and just to make it abundantly clear I would never ever consider learning that particular song let alone perform it.

Subject: RE: Baptist Sunday School words offensive?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 11 Dec 17 - 05:42 AM

Observer says: Tell me how often in everyday life do you wander about asking about other people, complete strangers, permission to do things?

I would imagine that if a performer has been booked for a performance at a venue, there must have been some personal contact in the process of booking. If the performer wants to do a song that's a bit "iffy," it seems realistic and reasonable to ask the venue contact how the audience might react. I would consider this to be asking for information, not for permission.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: Baptist Sunday School words offensive?
From: GUEST,Observer
Date: 11 Dec 17 - 08:59 AM

In most cases with bookings especially for festivals the organisers have heard us before, in the case of the Canadian festival the story was about we had sent them a "live" CD. So as far as the organisers were concerned, as they did decide to book us, they obviously thought our material, standard of performance and audience reception to be of an acceptable standard. At a large international festival with those who make up the audiences coming from far and wide how on earth would the "organisers" be able to tell what might offend?

Where does the "If a performer wants to do a song that's a bit "iffy" come from? The song, internationally known and fairly widely performed had been sung many, many times, for years with no complaint whatsoever. So it is obvious that we didn't, and even now, I do not, find the song "a bit "iffy"

The only occasions where we have ever had to submit set lists complete with lyrics for approval have been where, as part of a festival a concert is played in a consecrated church in some countries in Europe - we've never had any problem there either.

Subject: RE: Baptist Sunday School words offensive?
From: Jeri
Date: 11 Dec 17 - 09:27 AM

It's "iffy" in the US, unless people understand you're preserving the historical integrity of the song, and not trying to present something that might not be verbally relevant today.

We've had this discussion so many times.
The bottom line is, sing what you like and those hearing you will decide if they like it, or you.

It's no one else's responsibility.

Subject: RE: Baptist Sunday School words offensive?
From: GUEST,Phil d'Conch
Date: 11 Dec 17 - 12:26 PM

There is zero chance one can honestly represent this song as anything other than a "coon shout." It's roots (the comedic lecture ie: Locomotive ? Bulgine Lecture) go back to the very beginnings of American minstrelsy - Stephen Foster's De History Ob De World, 1847.

Updated as Bible Stories in 1903 by the Queen of the Coon Shout herself, Canadian May Irwin (Mrs. Black is Back).

The Irwin sisters picked up where the Western Sisters left off in American minstrelsy. May Irwin was nearing the end of her career here and so was minstrelsy.

She did not perform in corkface but Irwin did more to promote the "razor totin' bull nigger" stereotype than anyone that comes to mind (eg: The Bully Song). Better change those bits as well hmmm?

She was as popular in England as America, so it's no surprise the song made the jump across the pond as it did. Probably the last real minstrelsy "superstar."

As Modernist-v-Fundamentalist mudslinging, the lyrics, at the time, would be more daring for their sacrilege than racism, (conservative Baptists & Presbyterians hate them!)

I think "Darkies" got moved to the title proper by Kentuckian "Blind" Charlie Oaks (The Oaks Family), Adam and Eve or "Darkies' Sunday School", Vocalion, 15342, 1927.

fyi: Other Oaks titles on Vocalion included The Death Of William Jennings Bryan & The John T. Scopes Trial.

One can put lipstick on a pig...

Subject: ADD: History Ob De World (Augustus Clapp)
From: Joe Offer
Date: 11 Dec 17 - 09:00 PM

Thanks for the lead, Phil. I didn't find any tie to Stephen C. Foster, though.
I did find lyrics to "History" here:

http://digitalcommons.conncoll.edu/sheetmusic/851/

HISTORY OB DE WORLD
(Augustus Clapp)

[Verse 1]
I am right from Old Wirginny,
Wid my head fill ob knowledge,
I have neber been to private school,
Nor any odder college;
Oh! I can tell you one thing,
It is a solemn fact,
I will sing de hist'ry ob de world in de twinkling ob de crash;
Den walk in! Walk in! walk in I Pray,
Oh walk into the parlor boys
And hear the banjo play;
Oh walk in to the parlor boys
And hear de banjo ring,
And watch de niggars fingers
While de pay upon de strings

[Verse 2]
This world of mud from the bottom of the river,
And the sons of all foc fire as you may diskiver,
The moon is made of cheese, and it always keeps a gwine,
But the sun stands still while the world keeps flying.

[Verse 3]
Dey first made the earth and den dey made the sky,
And den dey hung it up above and left it dar to dry,
Den dey made the stars out of niggar wenches eyes,
To give a little light when the moon don't rise.

[Verse 4]
So Adam was the first man,
Ebe was de tudder,
Dey put cain on the troddin mill, because he kill his broder,
Sampson was a strong man, nor wasn't countol lazy,
Case he took an asses jaw bone and sle de gates ob Gazy

[Verse 5]
Massa Jonah was a sassage maker, Thusula built the ark
Julecum Ceasar was a fisherman, what swallowed down a shark,
De highest mountain in the world is Pompey's famous pillar,
And the gratest man that ever lives was jack the giant killer.

[Verse 6]
And dare was major Noah got the varmints all together,
Because it gan to look very much like rainy weather,
The elephant it came last and Noah says your drunk,
Oh no I an't, it took me all the while to pack my trunk.

[Verse 7]
Noah built the ark and he filled it full of sassage,
And all the animals had to take a cabin passage,
It rained forty days and nights, exactly by the counting,
And it landed Noah's ark on the Alegany mountains.

[Verse 8]
There was a wicked sinner and Dagon they did call him,
Case Noah wouldn't let him in he said he meant to maul him,
He made a rush and stubbed his toe and fell against the ark,
His head was like a Codfish and his tail was like a shark.


Recommended Citation
Clapp, Augustus, "History ob de World" (1847). Historic Sheet Music Collection. 851.
http://digitalcommons.conncoll.edu/sheetmusic/851

Sheet Music available at the Library of Congress:

https://www.loc.gov/item/sm1847.420290/

Subject: RE: Baptist Sunday School words offensive?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 11 Dec 17 - 09:19 PM

All I found was an excerpt of May Irwin's "Bible Stories":

De world was made in six days,
Den dey made de sky;
Den dey hung it overhead
And lef' it dere to dry.
Den dey made the stars out of niggers' wenches eyes,
Just to give a little light
When de moon she doesn't rise.

https://books.google.com/books?id=Qs0ZDgAAQBAJ&pg=PT102&lpg=PT102

---

Maybe that's the whole thing. Here's the song from page 8 of May Irwin's Home Cooking (1904)

https://books.google.com/books?id=CFgEAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA8&lpg=PA8

LIVE HUMBLE

The world was made in six days;
Then they made the sky;
Then they hung it overhead,
And left it there to dry;
Then they made the stars
Out of nigger wenches' eyes,
Just to give a little light
When the moon she didn't rise.


That one makes me cringe. "Nigger wenches' eyes" is shockingly strong to me, reeking of both racism and violence.

-Joe-

Subject: ADD: De History Ob De World
From: Joe Offer
Date: 11 Dec 17 - 10:10 PM

Here's a very similar version from a book with the title The Up To Date Nigger Song Book

https://books.google.com/books?id=Ua5XAAAAcAAJ&pg=PA47

DE HISTORY OB DE WORLD
(Arranged by S. Contreso)

O, I come from ole Virginny,
Wid my head fill ob knowledge,
And I never went to free school,
Nor any other college.
But one ting I will tell you,
Which am a solemn fact,
I tell you how dis world was made
In a twinkling ob a crack.

CHORUS
Den walk in, den walk in I say,
Den walk in, and hear de banjo play.
Den walk into the parlour,
And hear de banjo ring;
And watch dis nigger's fingers,
While he plays upon de string.

Oh, dis world was made in six days,
And den dey made de sky.
And den dey hung it overhead
And left it dar to dry.
And den dey made de stars
Out ob nigger wenches' eyes,
For to gib a little light
When de moon didn't rise.

So Adam was de fust man,
Ebe she was de oder,
And Cain walk'd on de tread-mill,
Because he killed his broder;
Old modder Ebe,
Couldn't sleep widout a pillar,
And de greatest man dat eber lived
Was Jack de giant-killer.

And den dey made de sea,
And in it put a whale,
And den dey made a racoon,
Wid a ring around his tail;
All de oder animals
Was finished one by one
And stuck against the fence to-day
As fast as they were done.

O, lightning is a yellow gal,
She libs up in de clouds,
And thunder, he's a black man,
For he can hollow loud;
When he kisses lightning,
She dodges off in wonder,
Den he jumps, and tares his trousers,
And dat's what makes de thunder.

O, de wind begins to blow,
And de rain begins to fall,
And de water come so high,
Dat it drown'd de niggers all;
And it rained forty days and nights,
Exactly by the counting,
And it landed Noah's ark
'Pon the Alleghany mountains.

Subject: RE: Baptist Sunday School words offensive?
From: GUEST,Phil d'Conch
Date: 15 Dec 17 - 05:47 PM

Joe: Just added my two bits to what was already posted in the linked song threads.

RE: Foster, I did that part from memory though. Oops. It used to be "Uncredited" but I see the online consensus is moving away from that. My copy is the same as in the Levy Collection which is still credited to Foster... for now. It's a tandem sheet with Old Unkle Ned on the "B-Side" as it were. Both were part of A.F. Winnemore's Jim Crow Jubilee that was supposed to have a proto-Oh Susanna in it as well.

Augustus Clapp's credit was usually "Arranged for the Piano Forte By..." Have never been able to find much background on him.

Subject: RE: Baptist Sunday School words offensive?
From: GUEST,Darth vade
Date: 16 Jun 18 - 01:12 PM

That’s so funny. I grew up in a Christian home, though not baptist, and my dad used the word raisins not razors. It never really made a lot of sense to me but the whole song is a little crazy any way. Now that I know the real title of the song I understand the whole hoopla.

Subject: RE: Baptist Sunday School words offensive?
From: GUEST,Joe_F (away from home}
Date: 16 Jun 18 - 03:27 PM

I first heard the song (the "darky" version) in an assembly at my (progressive, private) high school about 1952. The man who sang it was black, a teacher, a former minister, and of British origin. We did not consider "darky" (or "pickaninny", for that matter) offensive -- such words came across as affectionate slang, unlike "nigger", which everybody knew was a nasty word.

Subject: RE: Baptist Sunday School words offensive?
From: Senoufou
Date: 16 Jun 18 - 03:50 PM

When I was a young girl in the late forties/early fifties, (W London) the word 'nigger' wasn't considered 'racist', merely the vernacular for black people. We had knitting wool in nigger brown, 'The Three Golliwogs' (story by Enid Blyton) were called Golly, Woggie and Nigger (!!!) and when I started riding lessons, my favourite pony was called Nigger.
But rather than change the words to racist-sounding songs, it's better just to avoid singing them in my view.

(In case anyone who doesn't know me thinks I'm a racist old biddy, I married my lovely Ivorian husband many years ago, and he's extremely black!)