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BS: 'Conspiracy'
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Subject: 'Conspiracy' From: Fiolar Date: 26 Jan 02 - 08:43 AM Did anyone watch the TV film "Conspiracy" on BBC last night (January 25th)? With Kenneth Branagh as Heydrich and Stanley Tucci as Eichman, it portrayed a meeting which took part in 1942 to plan the "final solution." No violence, no action but a roomful of top level Nazis discussing coldly the planned extermination of a race. Never was a sense of pure evil better depicted. The programme should be compulsory viewing for all schools as part of a history class. Branagh and Tuccci were brilliant. |
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Subject: RE: BS: 'Conspiracy' From: paddymac Date: 26 Jan 02 - 09:06 AM I whole heartedly agree that such things need to be remembered. Hopefully the program will make its way across the pond. Doesn't seem like too much of a leap to think of "the committee" described in McPhelimy's book of that title as a similar disgusting evil. |
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Subject: RE: BS: 'Conspiracy' From: DougR Date: 26 Jan 02 - 06:55 PM I think this was a HBO production, and I agree it was excellent. DougR |
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Subject: RE: BS: 'Conspiracy' From: Fiolar Date: 27 Jan 02 - 05:52 AM It has already been shown in the States. |
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Subject: RE: BS: 'Conspiracy' From: sian, west wales Date: 27 Jan 02 - 09:21 AM Apart from the overall horror of what they were doing, it also made one think about the role of top-level committees in the world today. Many of the 'types' in the Conspiracy meeting are still very much about. sian |
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Subject: RE: BS: 'Conspiracy' From: GUEST Date: 27 Jan 02 - 11:31 AM Yes Sian, and in the US we refer to them as the Enron Administration. ;-) But seriously, today's Boston Globe has an interesting article about the moral fallout of the inhumane "culture" which was standard behavior at Enron, apparently. It echoes the moral questions raised in "Conspiracy" too. You can read the sad Enron immorality tale here: http://www.boston.com/dailyglobe2/027/nation/Enron_s_workers_loss_more_than_fiscal+.shtml |
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Subject: RE: BS: 'Conspiracy' From: nutty Date: 28 Jan 02 - 03:43 AM Time can draw a curtain over the unsavoury facts that some nations would rather forget.Mass extermination (in order to preserve the purity of a race of people) was only a small step from the compulsory sterilisation of "undesirables" that was already being practised in many countries (including Great Britain) |
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Subject: RE: BS: 'Conspiracy' From: Murray MacLeod Date: 28 Jan 02 - 05:06 PM nutty, could you supply more details please, regarding the "compulsory sterilisation of undesirables already being practised in Great Britain ?" Murray
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Subject: RE: BS: 'Conspiracy' From: nutty Date: 28 Jan 02 - 05:27 PM Murray ..... My history on this is somewhat vague but I watched a TV documentary about it some years ago. Apparently members of the medical profession were becoming concerned about the number of "mentally retarded" people being admitted to mental institutions ( these included young girls who became pregnant without being married, or who were otherwise deemed to be out of their parents control and people of no fixed abode) so with the agreement of their governments (I know GB and Germany were involved along with certain other European countries) they started a programme of compulsory sterilisation. |
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Subject: RE: BS: 'Conspiracy' From: Clinton Hammond Date: 28 Jan 02 - 05:31 PM Damn good piece of film that... Very good piece of film... |
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Subject: RE: BS: 'Conspiracy' From: Gareth Date: 28 Jan 02 - 06:16 PM Unfortnatly, in keeping with the morals of the time, unmarried mothers and the like were confined to mental Instutions in the 1920s and 30's in the UK. Don't know if it ever was official policy to steralise but I can visualise certain " Health Boards or Doctors" doing this. And in case you think that this is old History elements in the Conservative Party ( Sir Keith Joseph ) were advocating this in the last 20 years. Gareth |
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Subject: RE: BS: 'Conspiracy' From: Murray MacLeod Date: 28 Jan 02 - 06:35 PM I know that unmarried mothers were sectioned to mental hospitals (particularly in upper class families) and I am aware that sterilistion has been advocated on occasion by eugenicists, but I am unaware that Britain ever had any official policy of "compulsory" sterilisation and would still like to see the evidence that such a policy was ever implemented, clandestinely or openly. Murray
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Subject: RE: BS: 'Conspiracy' From: Gareth Date: 28 Jan 02 - 06:40 PM Murray - concur with your request for evidence. I fear too much political history is hearsay and urban ledgend - vide Churchill sending Tanks into the Rhondda in 1911 - 5 years befor they were invented. My trouble is that I am toooooo pedantic. Gareth |
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Subject: RE: BS: 'Conspiracy' From: Amergin Date: 29 Jan 02 - 12:16 AM nutty...that sort of thing went on in the states also..... |
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Subject: RE: BS: 'Conspiracy' From: mack/misophist Date: 29 Jan 02 - 12:39 AM Historical note: The meeting in the movie (?) was the Wandsee Conference. The Nazis kept very good notes of what occured. Did they sterilize 'undesirables? Yes. Women who didn't fit the Aryan blueprint (In one case I know of for certain, a perfectly Aryan woman was sterilized because she was over 6 feet tall) were sometimes sterilized. This was not just a Nazi thing. They came into power sooner than expected and didn't have any 'race purity' laws ready to enact. So, they scanned the world for like minded administrations and easily found laws they could adapt. Two of the most fruitful sources were the American states of New Jersey and California. I'm American, by the way. |
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Subject: RE: BS: 'Conspiracy' From: nutty Date: 29 Jan 02 - 03:30 AM It's always easier to believe that these things did not happen in our country but there were indeed many "atrocities" committed by nanny states believing that they were acting in the best interest of the country ......as I often point out to people ....The British invented concentration camps during the Boer War and inflicted horrendous suffering on womwn and children. Why, then, is it so difficult to believe that they might also have had an official sterilisation programme?? |
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Subject: RE: BS: 'Conspiracy' From: mack/misophist Date: 29 Jan 02 - 09:14 AM Sorry Nutty, the US Army invented concentration camps to help 'relocate' the Indians. Like Fort Defiance, Arizona in the mid-1800's. |
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Subject: RE: BS: 'Conspiracy' From: nutty Date: 29 Jan 02 - 09:21 AM I can't argue with that misophist .... just another example of man's inhumanity to man |
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Subject: RE: BS: 'Conspiracy' From: Murray MacLeod Date: 29 Jan 02 - 09:27 AM Nutty, I will believe it if and when I see irrefutable evidence. I am aware that certain mental abnormalities can cause women who suffer from them to engage in promiscuous sexual activity, and that in these cases doctors may well take the decision to sterilise in the interest of the patient's well-being, if they are mentally incapable of implementing their own birth-control program. If that is what you are referring to, I don't think it is such a big deal and certainly doesn't equate with the eugenics of Nazi Germany, nor does it merit the epithet of "official sterilisation program". Murray |
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Subject: RE: BS: 'Conspiracy' From: nutty Date: 29 Jan 02 - 11:04 AM Murray ....that is definitely not what I was referring to. This was a deliberate and systematic attempt to curtail the existance of what I previously referred to as undesirables and was not just aimed at women. I'm sorry, I can not provide the evidence you require as I can't remember the name of the programme or when it was shown. However, there was no public outcry to its showing as there would have been had it been a complete fabrication. |
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Subject: RE: BS: 'Conspiracy' From: Fiolar Date: 29 Jan 02 - 12:54 PM Having worked in various psychiatric hospitals most of my adult life I can assure people that the practice of admitting girls who got pregnant under the pretence of being mentally retarded ceased in the 1930s. The Mental Health Act of 1959 imposed very strict controls on who could be admitted and detained in mental hospitals. Many of the sections required two medical recommendations as well as an application from an appropriately qualified social worker. Also the difference between being "mentally handicapped" and "mentally ill" is very great. The position in Nazi Germany regarding the "final solution" was a bureaucratic one probably instigated by Hitler who was careful to ensure that little or no evidence remained to implicate him. |
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Subject: RE: BS: 'Conspiracy' From: nutty Date: 29 Jan 02 - 04:17 PM It was the 1920's and 30's that I was referring to. I never suggested that such practices existed in Britain today although if you put "compulsory sterilization" (sterilisation)into any search engine here on the net you will find that there are still countries where it is practised. |
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Subject: RE: BS: 'Conspiracy' From: nutty Date: 29 Jan 02 - 04:51 PM A quick search of the internet has revealed an amazing amount of information on this subject including this article EUGENICS This might be the evidence you are looking for Murray |
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Subject: RE: BS: 'Conspiracy' From: Amergin Date: 01 Jun 02 - 10:59 PM I just watched this movie on DVD...and was just chilled to the marrow....wow.... |
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Subject: RE: BS: 'Conspiracy' From: Bobert Date: 01 Jun 02 - 11:58 PM Hey, with de-institutionalization and the poor state of affairs in most state funded and conrtolled mental hospiatls in the USA, we have a horror story going on on a daily basis. Couple that with the stigma that those of ruling class have place on mental illness, the US has nothing to brag about and claim to have a higher ground than what other governments have done in the past. Speaking as a former social worker in adult services, I have seen OUR inhumanity close up. And it stinks... No, we don't off these folks. We just dump them into a world in which they don't have a clue until they off themselves... |
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Subject: RE: BS: 'Conspiracy' From: Liz the Squeak Date: 02 Jun 02 - 02:37 AM At least you still HAVE mental institutions... Maggie Thatcher got rid of all ours in the UK (so there wouldn't be any to put her into) in the 1980's and invented 'don't care in the community'. The death rate of people with mental illnesses soared in the first few years and has remained high, as does the number of crimes committed by those whose only defense was 'diminished responsibility'. LTS |
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Subject: RE: BS: 'Conspiracy' From: Metchosin Date: 02 Jun 02 - 03:35 AM Here is the Province of Alberta's sad record and way in advance of Nazi Germany:
March 21, 1928 - Sexual Sterilization Act becomes law in Alberta. 5 years later Germany does the same, sterilization becoming a tool of the Nazis. I'm not aware if there was an official policy in other provinces in Canada but eugenics certainly was practised unofficially. |