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An Open Letter from Max to GUESTS
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Subject: RE: An Open Letter from Max to GUESTS From: Ebbie Date: 11 Feb 02 - 01:51 AM I suspect it's the GUESTS who are the most addicted ones! Go, Max. Ebbie |
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Subject: RE: An Open Letter from Max to GUESTS From: JudyR Date: 11 Feb 02 - 03:21 AM Whoever silently sang "We Shall Overcome," let's follow that. I'm rather new, having only been here a few months, yet within a week of posting on here last fall, I knew I had to be parat of what's going on in a legitimate way. So thrilled was I to get the answers to my questions and to find a place like this -- and purely by accident! Why can't others do the same? It's such a little thing -- registering -- and it shows respect and gratitude for all that you're getting here for nothing. Also, from other forums I've been on, I'm aware that the moderator always has the last word -- forget your cliches about "free speech" and "democracy"-- all they are is transparently self-serving (and erroneous, to boot). In a privately-run website, of course, the moderator can do anything he wants. I also know that the fastest way to encourage trolls and flamers is to keep answering them. I don't know if anyone has suggested this, but I suspect, as before, it's pretty much the same GUEST weighing in here! Such an amazing coincidence that every GUEST resists joining, in the same rather disrespectful way, and with the same irrelevent objections -- that it won't work, etc. You got a friend, Max. Go for it. We need you and this forum. With few exceptions, anything worth saying is worth signing. |
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Subject: RE: An Open Letter from Max to GUESTS From: Peter Kasin Date: 11 Feb 02 - 04:11 AM Max, it's too bad it's come to this move, but you've looked at the pros and cons of it from many angles for awhile, and I trust your judgement on this. I'm with you all the way on this. If only the anonymous flamers could have been starved out of the forum by boycotting their threads - but the self-policing just didn't take hold, so it's come to this. Well, if that what's needed to be done, then bravo! Best, chanteyranger |
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Subject: RE: An Open Letter from Max to GUESTS From: Dave Bryant Date: 11 Feb 02 - 05:12 AM I realise that you are very upset about this issue Max, and I would accept virtually ANY ruling that would keep the "Cat" alive. However, there may be some consequences of instigating too draconian restrictions on guests. Someone has already mentioned the Lyric and Music required threads. Restricting a guest from replying to these, might mean that a valuable response never gets posted - after all they would be required to join up to do a "catter" a service. How about allowing guests to reply to these postings, but limiting the number of guest postings in such threads to a specific number. If the answer hasn't been received in the first 10 or so postings it's not usually found. It's at that point that the thread is in danger of getting hijacked. The idea of recording IP addresses, could pose problems for users like me who do a lot of their postings from a workplace network where IP addresses change all the time. I also access the "Cat" from a desktop at home, a laptop, and my PDA - so this could cause me problems. I used the "Cat" for several years as a guest (I used my e-mail address) and probably would not have become a member otherwise. I wonder how many prospective members would be deterred if they didn't have a chance to find their feet as a guest. |
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Subject: RE: An Open Letter from Max to GUESTS From: GUEST,Jabjo Date: 11 Feb 02 - 05:28 AM Dave, You wouldn't be stopped from posting because you had a different IP address. The idea of tracking the IP addresses is to 'identify' you. However, as others have mentioned above, it's pretty ineffectual. I totally agree with you about it stopping new members joining. When I think of all the sites which tell me they'll email me a password, I just think 'sod this' and move on. I fear the 'Cat will suffer in the same way Jabjo |
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Subject: RE: An Open Letter from Max to GUESTS From: Jon Freeman Date: 11 Feb 02 - 05:41 AM I am very sorry to see this and certainly can not convince myself that, overall, it is a move for the better. Having said that, it has always been my understanding that Max has been heavily in favour of the open format so I'm sure it's not a decision he is taking lightly. I also appreciate that someone (i.e. Max) has to set the rules round here and that at times hard choices have to be made. I guess my overall comment is I'm dissapointed but still wish Max and Mudcat well and hope that in the long term it is proven that my doubts are unfounded and that the move does help. Jon |
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Subject: RE: An Open Letter from Max to GUESTS From: gnu Date: 11 Feb 02 - 07:01 AM 157 Posts ! And this is not a democracy ! I read the thread when there was only a few posts and went away... not my place to comment. When I saw 157, I knew I didn't have the time to read it all, so, I just read Max's posts and I think I caught the gist of it all. My only comment is to Max... thanks again. You're doing a great job with a great site. I'll be sending another donation this year no matter what you (don't) do.
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Subject: RE: An Open Letter from Max to GUESTS From: Zipster Date: 11 Feb 02 - 07:18 AM For what its worth... I have come very recently to the site and am rapt with admiration at what you do here. I have not seen abuse to which the members have referred, except for one recent thread which seemed to be strongly critical of how the forum was run/digitrad was updated. I was somewhat surprised at the strength of the criticism, but agreed, as anyone over the age of 5 would, with the suggestion made that if they felt that strongly they should go off and start their own. I'm not sure about your "troll" and "flamer" terminology but I think lumping all guests together can't be accurate. I was a guest myself. I think if we looked at how members got involved, they probably guested initially, before joining. Many guests are here to discover the community benefits that the site offers. The others, those guests that seem to be causing the problems will fall into 2 camps, those that feel they have a genuine contribution to make, and those that whose interest and amusemnet is based in jerking the forum's joint chain. The first group I think have potentiallya valuable contribution to make. They should be encouraged to keep it positive. There are benefits to letting people get things off their chests, the forum doesn't need to act on their opinions. As has been said above this is not a democracy, but for a community to exist/succeed this kind of emotional ownership is essential and should be respected. I don't understand the benefit they get from anonymity but this group could perhaps be encouraged to become members. That leaves those who's intentions are just badness. It would be great to be able to identify and exclude these. As most of us know these guys are not unique to this site but their life blood is the reaction they achieve, and as many people have said the type of actions being considered will be viewed as a great success. The advice given elsewhere is to ignore them and they will go away, it does work, I've seen it, because it denies them what they want, childish entertainment from heated reaction. The problem with the suggestions as they stand are that they will have most impact on well-intentioned guests and those who care about the form. Actual flamers will feed on their success, join the forum, spit their bile, and then what? Max get t'd off feels powerless to control and closes the website? That way we all lose out. I'm not in a position to judge how bad its been but I would advocate caution in excluding guests. Remember sticks and stones may break my bones but names will never hurt me, a rhyme handed out to kids to help them deal with abuse. Its good advice.
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Subject: RE: An Open Letter from Max to GUESTS From: nutty Date: 11 Feb 02 - 07:37 AM You have my support Max
The only people who need to fear identifying themselves are those with something to hide. |
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Subject: RE: An Open Letter from Max to GUESTS From: Dave Bryant Date: 11 Feb 02 - 07:56 AM I just want to say, look on the plus side Max. Just see how many of the current threads are performing a valuable task in diseminating information, keeping people in touch, helping to organise events (just look at the various Stony Stratford threads - to find a success story) and all the other wonderful things that are possible because of your creation. Don't let the small percentage of "Unwanted Guests" spoil all that. If you are forced to close or make drastic changes to "The Cat" then you will have handed a victory to those very people. Let's all just get on with ENJOYING "The Cat" and all the benefits that it brings. Jabjo, depending on how it was implemented, the IP address tracking could present problems to me when I am logged in from work as I am now. Due to our network, the IP address is constantly changing - which means that I can't login to my online banking account from here. I could find that I have the same problems with "The Cat" |
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Subject: RE: An Open Letter from Max to GUESTS From: Jon Freeman Date: 11 Feb 02 - 08:12 AM Just thinking more on IP tracking, I wonder how many UK visitors like myself use Freeserve (one of the UKs largest providers) dial up connections for example. While IP tracking could eliminate certain people from "suspicion", short of checking with an ISP (assuming they can and will provide info), it is also capable of putting innocent people under "suspicion". Jon |
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Subject: RE: An Open Letter from Max to GUESTS From: sophocleese Date: 11 Feb 02 - 08:52 AM "Guest versus non-guest" is a silly way to regard the problems here at Mudcat. Rudeness has always been a problem from members and guests alike. If you want a place without an obtrusive moderator people have to moderate their own behaviour. If you want to start moderating moderate actions not signatures. |
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Subject: RE: An Open Letter from Max to GUESTS From: RichM Date: 11 Feb 02 - 08:55 AM I am one of those who defended "Guest"(s)right to be treated respectfully. After all, a guest is someone welcomed into your midst. But-call me old-fashioned-guests also have a responsibility to act politely. It's too bad that many guests think the anonymity of the internet is a license to be rude. I support Max's pending restrictions on guests; rude guests are responsible for bringing this down on themselves. Rich McCarthy |
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Subject: RE: An Open Letter from Max to GUESTS From: GUEST,Catscradle Date: 11 Feb 02 - 08:57 AM There are a number of ways that the forum log-in could be changed, if that is the technological fix Max wishes to pursue. There seems to be an assumption that making the log-in member only is the only solution. It isn't. It is entirely possible to eliminate log-ins with emails and passwords altogether, and allow anyone who wishes to post, to post. Nor does no user name/PW log-in necessarily mean the other membership options would have to be scrapped. I think this entire "fuckhead guest" issue is the result of a bad choice by Max to deal with the hacker who stole what was it--one Mudcat regular's name? And look at the problems it has caused. A case of the cure being much worse than the disease. Put an end to the member/guest log-in however you want Max, bit please do it soon. This hatred/paranoia of guests has poisoned the forum, and made it a troll and flame paradise for members and guests alike. If there are no more guests to hate, then all you'll have left to deal with are the member flamers and trolls. And I pray you finally do deal with them with an even hand, and get this forum cleaned up once and for all. In addition to the log-in change, I'd also like to see that no more "engaging the trolls by flaming them for our amusement" gets tolerated here either. Of course this place isn't a democracy. But if users don't see Max as playing fair, even the changes in the log-in won't stop the slide into internet discussion forum graveyard this place seems to inexorably be on of late. I'm fine with BS remaining if we can get filters that work most the time. I'm fine with log-in being changed. What I'm not so sure about is whether you plan to deal with the problem members. If that doesn't happen after the change of log-in, I think you may be opening up an even bigger can of worms than has burst forth here in the last couple of years since the member/guest log-in was instituted. Making the log-in change without dealing with problem members, it seems to me, will only make the problems worse. |
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Subject: RE: An Open Letter from Max to GUESTS From: Teribus Date: 11 Feb 02 - 09:21 AM Having read through the above, it is obvious that Max feels that he does have to do something and he has evidently thought long and hard about it. If this site is to be maintained Max deserves the support of those wishing to use it. I have been using the forum now for about half a year, signing on as a named Guest. The help and assistance I have received from both Members and Guests has been second to none. This is certainly one source of information that I would not like to be cut off from and have therefore joined Mudcat as a new member |
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Subject: RE: An Open Letter from Max to GUESTS From: GUEST,Catscradle Date: 11 Feb 02 - 09:28 AM That's fine that you choose to become a member Teribus, but the suggestion seems to be that anyone who posts as something other than a member is automatically to be viewed with suspicion, and treated with derision. I think that is a large part of the problem, not the solution. Like sophocleese says--if Max would moderate rude behavior of problem posters who refuse to moderate their own actions, be they members or guests, the majority of the rudeness and bad behavior will go away. But it seems to me Max is looking for a tech fix, so he won't have to moderate. I don't believe that will solve anything, and may actually make it worse. |
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Subject: RE: An Open Letter from Max to GUESTS From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 11 Feb 02 - 09:32 AM Noone is paranoid about GUESTS as such, and no matter how many times this gets repeated, someone always comes up and laments about how it makes them feel unwelcome to have all this "hatred/paranoia" about GUESTs.
It's the ones who come in and as GUESTS behave in a generally unpleasant manner who get people annoyed, because that's what they are trying to do. Essentially there are GUESTS and there are GHOSTS who haunt this place.
If interfering with the nasty little games of the GHOST GUESTS messes up the freedom of everyone else to come in as GUESTS without registering, that is a pity, but it's been forced on the Mudcat. It hasn't happened quickly, after all. And registering doesn't involve much, when you think of it - and it doesn't in any way interfere with anybody's wishes to keep their details private.
(As for Dave Bryant's problem - anytime I've had to log on from a strange computer, all I have to do is give pretty minimal details, and the cookie is back once more. Maybe there are some office computers where that doesn't work, but I'd be surprised if there isn't a painless way round that.) |
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Subject: RE: An Open Letter from Max to GUESTS From: GUEST,Catscradle Date: 11 Feb 02 - 09:40 AM McGrath, I'll say it again. The piss-poor quality of discussions in Mudcat isn't due to guests' bad behavior. It has to do with problem posters, some of whom are guests, and some of whom are members. Why, when no one has a problem admitting that problem guest posters are part of the problem, are so many of you, including Max, having so much trouble admitting that problem member posters are just as bad, and just as detrimental to Mudcat? |
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Subject: RE: An Open Letter from Max to GUESTS From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 11 Feb 02 - 10:19 AM If a member posts a message that you feel needs disputing or criticising, you can do it in a PM, without getting involved in the kind of circular dispute which gets in the way of the enjoyment of other people posting on the thread in question.
I don't think Max is under any impression that what he is planning will solve all the awkwardnesses that arise in any kind of social environment. The hope is it will get rid of one unpleasantness which has got on his nerves and on the nerves of a lot of people. |
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Subject: RE: An Open Letter from Max to GUESTS From: Kim C Date: 11 Feb 02 - 10:23 AM I belong to a list that requires registration to post, and one of the rules is, You Must Sign Your Full Name To Every Post. People who continually refuse to sign their name have their posts removed. The other side of the coin is - and this is the part I don't like - if the moderators don't like what you have to say, they'll edit or delete your posts. Now, I can see editing/deleting posts that don't follow the Rules of the Forum. But just because you don't like what the person says? No - unless it's riddled with profanity or vulgarity or something like that. I don't care if someone wants to be a GUEST - what I don't like is when said GUEST's only goal is to get under someone's skin. And as some have already stated, sometimes there are members who do the same thing. I'm not against mandatory registration. I also think people should just be nice to one another. :-) |
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Subject: RE: An Open Letter from Max to GUESTS From: annamill Date: 11 Feb 02 - 10:30 AM You do what you have to do, Max. It'll be good to know who I'm talking to and hearing from. Love, Anna |
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Subject: RE: An Open Letter from Max to GUESTS From: Jeri Date: 11 Feb 02 - 10:30 AM Bottom line, in my (cynical) opinion:
One guest of dubious sanity trolls.
Max has made a decision to try to stop it. |
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Subject: RE: An Open Letter from Max to GUESTS From: Stilly River Sage Date: 11 Feb 02 - 10:50 AM Jon Freeman does bring up a good point. Depending on where the computer is operating, at home versus within a large institution, the IP address can be meaningless. When I dialup from home I am assigned an IP address, different each time I logon. I prefer this to having to deal with a permanent address and the associated firewall software that I would have to use to preserve my computer and privacy. When I log on from the university I'm using one very busy permanent IP address; the way we make so many subscription databases available to university users is to have an IP-specific setup with suppliers. They recognize those who are coming from this system and don't require a logon. Those who wish to use subscription material from off campus go through a proxy server. If we end up with some twit on campus here flaming a thread at Mudcat, could the entire address could end up compromised as far as a filter system? To my way of thinking it is better to use an individual logon and cookie approach. (Mudcat is listed as a music resource link in library publications for the Fine Arts library, so it is quite possible that many people from here are on the list). Finally, I noticed that that darned Microsoft XP or whatever it is preserves the history in such as way that it isn't easily erased. I logged onto my personal web page on a different campus last week, one that uses the newest software, and after I logged out, when I typed up the general web page for my internet provider, there was my personal web page, where anyone could edit it. I'll cross my fingers that it is dropped off of a list out of sight pretty soon, but I may not be so lucky. Microsoft is just too smart for its users' good most of the time. SRS
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Subject: RE: An Open Letter from Max to GUESTS From: Devilmaster Date: 11 Feb 02 - 10:59 AM Ok, catscradle, let me see if I got this right..... When the problem of the problem.....no wait When problems of the posters poses a problem..... no wait,that ain't right either....... When posers pose on a posing problem.......arrgh! When the problem of posers posing on playboy 'pose' their problems...........I'll get it, I'll get it *sigh* So all i'm asking is what's the guy's name on first. No, what is on second... I'm not asking you who's on second Who's on first! I don't know....... Third Base! Steve |
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Subject: RE: An Open Letter from Max to GUESTS From: Steve Parkes Date: 11 Feb 02 - 11:01 AM For what it's worth, I'm backing Max. It's a shame, but if it has to be done, then it has to be done. We wouldn't stand for that sort of behaviour in the pub or the library or any other place we go to meet friends and/or get information: rude noisy people would soon find themselves in the street. Since we can't easily eject offensive people from the Cat, barring them entry seems like the only solution; it's a pity if it keeps out proper visitors. Steve |
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Subject: RE: An Open Letter from Max to GUESTS From: GUEST Date: 11 Feb 02 - 11:19 AM The guests are backing Max too Steve, so what does that tell you? That the current log-in is nearly universally loathed, except by members who wish to retain the ability to log-in as guests when away from their computers with the cookie. Who seem mostly to want to be able to continue to post from their workplaces without the boss finding out. Now the question is, how will barring entry to guest users solve the problem of offensive members stirring up and poisoning the atmosphere at Mudcat? |
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Subject: RE: An Open Letter from Max to GUESTS From: katlaughing Date: 11 Feb 02 - 11:38 AM Give a Guest a bone and it just keeps gnawing away. Max already answered that, (my emphasis): If you have a membership, you can send and receive Personal Messages. When a member gets upset, uses poor judgement, bad language, makes a personal attack, or anything that may cause grief to anyone, we communicate with them via PM. I cannot do that with GUESTS. I have had several interventions and discussions with Member Flamers and Trolls, and resolved them like adults. As I mentioned before, most were being belligerent for a reason and we discussed them maturely and actually formed some resolution. |
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Subject: RE: An Open Letter from Max to GUESTS From: allanwill Date: 11 Feb 02 - 11:57 AM I've just joined as a member and would urge all legitimat guests to do the same so that we can get rid of the moron who caused all this. Allan |
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Subject: RE: An Open Letter from Max to GUESTS From: GUEST Date: 11 Feb 02 - 12:03 PM Right kat, I read Max's explanation too. But I wasn't satisfied with it. IMO, keeping members' dirty linen hidden in the PMs doesn't make them accountable to the forum, only to Max. And therein lies the true "accountability" problem here, IMO. If forum readers never see problem posters be held accountable for their irresponsible and/or reprehensible actions, how will a standard ever be established? If Mudcat is going to made an enjoyable, pleasant forum again, we need to hold ourselves and one another accountable for our actions, not our signatures, as sophocleese wisely pointed out. There really isn't a need for the sysadmin to come in as the heavy. They need only make themselves known in the forum when a user gets ugly. But if the sysadmin always handles things through back channels (the PMs) and never notifies the forum that the problem poster has summarily been dealt with, there is no holding people publicly accountable for their actions, and the credibility of both sysadmin and the forum itself is shot. I believe Max and the Mudcat Mafia are responsible for having created both an accountability and credibility problem here. But rather than facing up to the fact that they've created a forum which is perceived at least by some as elitist and too often rude, arrogant, etc. they continue to play the blame game. They continue to make themselves out to be victims. Those sorts of passive/aggressive dysfunctions are easy enough for some of us to spot, and we know it is all smoke and mirrors. When we say so, it enrages a number of regulars (including Max), and round we go again. Max showed he wasn't going to play fair when he instituted the member/guest log-in to appease his friends in the forum, and not long after that, Max and the Mudcat Mafia demonstrated the unfairness of the playing field as the Mudcat standard by ruthlessly tarring and feathering Bruce Olson before running him out of the forum on a rail. But of course, I'm only telling one side of the story, right? |
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Subject: RE: An Open Letter from Max to GUESTS From: wysiwyg Date: 11 Feb 02 - 12:13 PM Bruce ran himself out. Nice try at revising history, though. ~S~ |
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Subject: RE: An Open Letter from Max to GUESTS From: katlaughing Date: 11 Feb 02 - 12:21 PM What we got here is a failure to communicate in a truthful, non-twisted way! I hope someday the GUEST/s will outgrow their desire to play victim/s and just get on with life. |
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Subject: RE: An Open Letter from Max to GUESTS From: SharonA Date: 11 Feb 02 - 12:22 PM Well said, Jeri. Max, I agree with what many have said, that it's too bad that it had to come to this, but a necessary evil is better than an unnecessary one. I'm assuming that when Secret Santa time comes around again, we'll be able to log-out temporarily to post as "So-and-So's Secret Santa" to post messages to our Santees. My only other concerns are: (a) will I still be able to go to the library (and I go to more than one in the area) and post as a member from there?; and (b) will people who "lose" their cookies be unable to post until the problem is rectified, or will there be a way for them to post temporarily also? I have to say that when I first checked out the Mudcat Forum, I did post as a GUEST until, as someone on this thread says, I got my footing. After a few posts, one of the long-time members thanked me for using a consistent "handle"; I didn't understand that post at first, till I saw firsthand what some of the anonymous GUESTs (and some GUESTs with spurious "handles") were doing to wreak havoc and cause such ill feeling among the membership. It's regrettable that, with the impending change, people with all the best intentions will not be able to freely post and get the feel of the place without registering personal info that they might feel uncomfortable revealing to strangers; but I hope that those people will read enough of the new "flame-retardant" threads before registering to feel trustful and comfortable becoming Mudcat members. As the song says, "It's your thang, do whatchoowanna do..." !!! Sharon |
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Subject: RE: An Open Letter from Max to GUESTS From: GUEST Date: 11 Feb 02 - 12:34 PM I agree kat, you, Max, and a number of others here are communicating in a dishonest, disingenuous, dysfunctional way. Which is your style, as well as your level of awareness. It is the "long-suffering members" playing the victim card, not the other way around. And Max's "open letter" is a prime example of it. It was a sympathy ploy, aimed at the #1 member hot button on Mudcat. And predictably, on board climbed all the usual suspects, saying "oh, poor, pitiful Max--sure we're behind you, get rid of the guests." Susan--there is more than just the Mudcat version of history. Folk music is one way of challenging official histories, like the official history of what happened to Bruce Olson here. There are those of us who actually witnessed that history as it was being made, and we damn well know better. But certain Mudcat members will keep suppressing that history, to keep newcomers from finding out where the bodies are buried, who murdered them, and how it was done. |
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Subject: RE: An Open Letter from Max to GUESTS From: catspaw49 Date: 11 Feb 02 - 01:01 PM Please don't feed the trolls. Spaw |
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Subject: RE: An Open Letter from Max to GUESTS From: GUEST,And Toto Too Date: 11 Feb 02 - 01:03 PM The Sycophant Chorus presents... The CyberSisters http://www.winternet.com/~mikelr/flame4.html with the Bliss Ninnies! http://www.winternet.com/~mikelr/flame24.html
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Subject: RE: An Open Letter from Max to GUESTS From: Bill D Date: 11 Feb 02 - 01:13 PM the trolls are surviving on stored body fat right now, they don't need 'feeding' to continue,,,so: "ruthlessly tarring and feathering Bruce Olson"....." like the official history of what happened to Bruce Olson here. " hmmmmm...I talk (like, in PERSON)to Bruce on a fairly regular basis. Bruce is a folk music scholar, one of the best there is, and I KNOW that he has a pretty narrow idea of what he wants to do with his time & energy, and got tired of wading thru so much social chatter and BS topics. however, Bruce and his resources are always available when anyone has questions and issues relevant to his interests, he just does not by his own choice care to wallow in the pit with the rest of us an a daily basis! (If you are reading this, Bruce, forgive me for presuming to speak in your behalf)... anyone who doubts me can simply post a message or request about some obscure old broadside, and watch how an informative answer..probably WITH tune, gets posted in reply! |
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Subject: RE: An Open Letter from Max to GUESTS From: Cappuccino Date: 11 Feb 02 - 01:26 PM Max, you must have the patience of a saint. Best wishes, - Ian B |
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Subject: RE: An Open Letter from Max to GUESTS From: Clinton Hammond Date: 11 Feb 02 - 01:36 PM You all really do take this internet thing WAY too seriously eh... |
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Subject: RE: An Open Letter from Max to GUESTS From: Bill D Date: 11 Feb 02 - 01:53 PM ah, Clinton..if it were ONLY a fantasy game, you would have a point, but these are real issues. There are real people wanting songs and answers and doing real things. And Max is a real person, using his spare time to make this place for them. And many of these real people have met in real time and have literally had their lives changed by some of their experiences.... if you are immune to this sort of thing, then you are either very fortunate...or very UNfortunate, depending on viewpoint and personality. When I read a post...I see a person there...some are kinda vague and hard to put details to...others, like Clinton Hammond...*grin*...are fleshed out in detail and easy to imagine right in the room with me. There are some folks I'd love to spend time with....and others I'd just like to get 20 minutes alone with...once! sorry, but after 56 years of life and other people being face-to-face, it IS now the case that part of life and others is the internet...and we'd better learn to cope!
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Subject: RE: An Open Letter from Max to GUESTS From: M.Ted Date: 11 Feb 02 - 02:41 PM Well, it is true that there has been a lot of anonymous flaming lately, and Max, I have solicited support from the funders that you are talking to, so I understand the position that you are in--but we have had a couple of nice music threads--from my point of view, anyway, which is that questions were asked that drew out answers that ended up helping others to develop their playing skills--not by providing encouragement, but by saying, "Do this, then this, and you'll get this"--and actually having people do it, and say, "So that's how you do it!", and that ought to carry some weight with them, as well-- Still, there are a few people(both anonymous and not anonymous) who find it necessary to take potshots at the people who ask the questions and the people who answer them, and it is troubling--I do remember BruceO's last fairwell, and there was a particular person(a full-fledged member, not an anonymous GUEST) who mounted an astoundingly vicious and abusive attack on him--you won't find it, because it was deleted, but not before the damage was done-- It is not much of a secret that BruceO came back as a GUEST, without a handle, and vented a bit before he left--maybe not the best response, but an understandable one--for some people, at least, it exposed the fact that angry GUESTS often are active participants who have been hurt enough to want to hit back--Sadly enough, Bruce's actions are remembered, not those of the member who attacked him-- If an underwriter is hesitant to put their money on the line unless they can be assured that situations like this will not occur in the future, I can understand that, as well--
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Subject: RE: An Open Letter from Max to GUESTS From: GUEST Date: 11 Feb 02 - 02:52 PM Well said, M.Ted Sadly enough, Bruce's actions are remembered, not those of the member who attacked him Members are good, GUESTS are bad. |
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Subject: RE: An Open Letter from Max to GUESTS From: Clinton Hammond Date: 11 Feb 02 - 03:03 PM "are fleshed out in detail and easy to imagine right in the room with me" Live in fear Bill... live in fear! :-) See... I know what yer getting at, but that's not how I cyberspace... I don't even WANT to cyberspace that way... I keep relationships like that for meat space where they belong... Cyberspace is too ephemeral, too fluid, too interpretive... And well, as I've said before, web sites come and web sites go... and while it IS a good one, Mudcat is just a website... "if it were ONLY a fantasy game" To a lot of people, (I'd imagine anyway) it IS just a fantasy game... "And Max is a real person" I believe Max was grown in a vat by the KGB... :-) |
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Subject: RE: An Open Letter from Max to GUESTS From: Mooh Date: 11 Feb 02 - 03:19 PM Wow! I go away for a couple of days and return to a new world order! Well, not quite, but I understand. I have broken the "read the entire thread before posting" rule because this one is very long and I have inadequate time to digest it all. I read the first very many and a few throughout the list however. Please forgive. I will support Max in any decision he makes on our collective behalf. My feeling about becoming a regular poster a couple of years ago was that everyone here was a sort of guest of Max since this was his party. I still feel pretty much the same. Max is the best kind of host because he lets us all be ourselves, at least until someone is hurt. (In my dayjob workplace nothing changes until someone is hurt, killed or sued, or management needs money. Max is acting proactively before that.) In the meantime, we are self-policed for the most part, and that works for me, but it doesn't appear to work for party crashers. I approve of the Max plan and its rationale. I can't offer any more constructive advice than what's already been said. God bless you and the work you do Max. Peace, Mooh. |
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Subject: RE: An Open Letter from Max to GUESTS From: gnu Date: 11 Feb 02 - 03:37 PM As far as I am concerned, the only reason to continue this thread is to break 200 posts. Has this been done before ? |
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Subject: RE: An Open Letter from Max to GUESTS From: The Shambles Date: 11 Feb 02 - 03:45 PM unnamed thread
Jeri said: Of course, it would have been better if we'd all just learned to ignore the silly trolls instead of needing to be protected from them. Too much to ask for, though.
Is it really?......... Is it really too late?
How about giving it one last a real try? All is needed is for YOU to use this restraint and there is no problem..........LOL............. |
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Subject: RE: An Open Letter from Max to GUESTS From: annamill Date: 11 Feb 02 - 04:36 PM DO IT NOW MAX!!! L.A. |
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Subject: RE: An Open Letter from Max to GUESTS From: GUEST Date: 11 Feb 02 - 04:47 PM gnu, we've broken 400 posts before... |
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Subject: RE: An Open Letter from Max to GUESTS From: GUEST,No One Wins a Flame War Date: 11 Feb 02 - 04:51 PM I gave some links to very high quality websites regarding message board management in The New Mudcat Order Thread. It seemed like a positive, proactive thing to do. Sometimes we all just need to take a deep breath, and reimagine what our cyberworld could look like. If people are as committed to helping Mudcat as they say they are, then they should be looking for solutions, not someone to wag their fingers and thumb their noses at, methinks. Cheers!
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Subject: RE: An Open Letter from Max to GUESTS From: GUEST Date: 11 Feb 02 - 04:52 PM DO IT NOW MAX!!! Very easy for you to say annamill, what with your big house and general riches... Out of curiousity, when was the last time that you posted something useful in a music thread? Go on, don't be shy.... tell us
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Subject: RE: An Open Letter from Max to GUESTS From: Wesley S Date: 11 Feb 02 - 05:04 PM Just think what a better place the world would be if all of this energy was being spent on something that really mattered like feeding the hungry or housing the homeless. Go for it Max. And thanks for what you do here. |
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