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An Open Letter from Max to GUESTS
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Subject: RE: An Open Letter from Max to GUESTS From: GUEST,Some cute hoor Date: 10 Feb 02 - 03:21 PM Well, I've been anon and posted under many pseudonyms here. I am part of the problem, the thorn in the side of Max and Mudcat for daring to criticise some things around here I felt needed some critical feedback. Joyously and anonymously participated in the Drumcree threads. Contributed to many a music thread. Won't bother me a bit if there is an email log-in. No different than posting in usenet, where you need an email account to post from. It ain't gonna solve flamers and trolls. Why? Because you've got plenty of members already who are flamers and trollers. Max will have the satisfaction of booting out anybody who's posts he doesn't like. So Max--you gonna throw your friends out of the forum for bad behaviour? "Members only" ain't gonna make this a better place, just more incestuous than it already is, is all.
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Subject: RE: An Open Letter from Max to GUESTS From: wysiwyg Date: 10 Feb 02 - 03:23 PM Well Bruce's input, some given intentionally and perhaps some given unawarely, has gone into Max's decision. As he says, it has come down to the practical matter of resourcing Mudcat. ~Susan |
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Subject: RE: An Open Letter from Max to GUESTS From: GUEST Date: 10 Feb 02 - 03:34 PM Some cute hoor, hear, hear |
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Subject: RE: An Open Letter from Max to GUESTS From: GUEST,some cute hoor Date: 10 Feb 02 - 03:42 PM My favorite Mudcat double standard has always been the one where the Joes zap those "personal attacks" on Mudcat members, but sanction and often contribute to the personal attacks on guests with pseudonyms by members. I'm sure now it will be a hear no evil, see no evil, speak no evil of Max and his 'Catters. No news but the good news of the day! No critical thinking allowed! CensorshipIsUs! Up the 'cat! |
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Subject: RE: An Open Letter from Max to GUESTS From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 10 Feb 02 - 03:50 PM ...but while it may be a pity it's come to this, won't it be great not having some of these jolly souls cavorting around? |
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Subject: RE: An Open Letter from Max to GUESTS From: Jeri Date: 10 Feb 02 - 03:51 PM Of course, it would have been better if we'd all just learned to ignore the silly trolls instead of needing to be protected from them. Too much to ask for, though. |
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Subject: RE: An Open Letter from Max to GUESTS From: Annie144 Date: 10 Feb 02 - 03:56 PM I needed a nudge to get me to join!! Off to the Paltalk singalong now. This is a great site folks. Congratulations despite all the problems. A. |
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Subject: RE: An Open Letter from Max to GUESTS From: GUEST Date: 10 Feb 02 - 04:03 PM There are certainly double standards here. If some of Catspaws more 'colorful' comments had been posted by a GUEST, then they'd have been censored, or at least moaned about. As it is, they are seen as wonderful. |
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Subject: RE: An Open Letter from Max to GUESTS From: Clinton Hammond Date: 10 Feb 02 - 04:06 PM Pffft... internet security... what a laugh... it doesn't exist... there's NO such thing... And well, that last thing this place needs it to flash up a whole tonne of black ICE and draw attention to itself online... What did Paul say above about people who hack for the joy of it? Members only or not, Mudcat won't change... Look at any other MB online, and you'll see that EVERYWHERE else is dealing with the exact same problems as Mudcat... Trolls, flamers, anon. personal attacks, all that crap is, apparently, part and parcel with the internet... You either suck it up and cope, or ya drop out of cyberspace... "your IP address will be recorded. Any behaviour that I don't like (no jury, no trial) and your cut off. A technological challenge that I am looking forward to. " Great plan... but "Tech challenge"??? Hell, ANY message board moderator can do that easy peasy... But remember, valid email addys are a dime a dozen, and any halfwit child can mask his IP... Best of luck to ya Max, but I hope yer not fooling yerself... |
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Subject: RE: An Open Letter from Max to GUESTS From: GUEST Date: 10 Feb 02 - 04:07 PM I don't think all you members have done your obligatory kissing Max's ass in this thread, now have ye? Line up to the left there now lads, and pucker up. And when yer done, get on over to the DT thread and lick the Big Dick's boots clean. |
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Subject: RE: An Open Letter from Max to GUESTS From: GUEST,Paul Date: 10 Feb 02 - 04:11 PM Well said, Clinton I've now got a completely different IP Address by simply walking downstairs... |
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Subject: RE: An Open Letter from Max to GUESTS From: Kenny B (inactive) Date: 10 Feb 02 - 04:13 PM Good for you Max, although I hope you can find a way of not deterring people who are genuinely interested in music or verse from being able to ask for words/music and contributing information. Maybe I'm a bit slow sometimes, but it took me at least 6 months of visiting the site before I made a posting and it was thro my first or second posting that it was kindly pointed out by a member the advantages of being a member. Probably because I was using my email address as a guest identifier. I find the PM facility and 'Messages since last visit a great help' IMHO anyone who posts and does not want to be identified in any way does not deserve a reply. Apart from halloween anyone who 'wears a mask' has a genuine fear of being identified and is up to no good.
Best of luck with any changes you have to make to keep the Mudcat reasonably close to its roots.
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Subject: RE: An Open Letter from Max to GUESTS From: Blackcatter Date: 10 Feb 02 - 04:23 PM Do what you need to do Max. As for the recent GUEST comments in this thread - Ya don't like the place? - Leave. Simple as that. None of your whining is going to imporve things, but of course you know that. pax yall |
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Subject: RE: An Open Letter from Max to GUESTS From: Gareth Date: 10 Feb 02 - 04:31 PM It is a pity that it comes to this - but some of the comments in this thread confirm my view that it is a neccessary evil. Gareth |
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Subject: RE: An Open Letter from Max to GUESTS From: GUEST,THOSE people Date: 10 Feb 02 - 04:38 PM Upstairs, downstairs, from the laptop, the palm, and then entire computer labs full of IPs from which to post at work, at school, at the library, at the cybercafes... Many, many merry free email accounts... Mailers for disguise... Yah sure, you betcha, Maxie is gonna keep all the bad, bad guests away and keep the 'Cat safe for him and his friends, right Max? A nice private little forum for you and the flame warriors who love you. No more irritating guests. Just your safe, cozy little Mudcat world for wannabe folk stars, sparkling in their dark and distant members-only cyberspace.
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Subject: RE: An Open Letter from Max to GUESTS From: 53 Date: 10 Feb 02 - 04:42 PM Well said. |
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Subject: RE: An Open Letter from Max to GUESTS From: GUEST Date: 10 Feb 02 - 04:44 PM 53, Who 'said well?' |
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Subject: RE: An Open Letter from Max to GUESTS From: kendall Date: 10 Feb 02 - 04:48 PM Sure it's only 5 out of 100 who "Piss in the pool" but, do you really want to swim in a pool that ONLY 5 people have pissed in? Like it or hate it; the fact is, this is Max's site, and he is justified in doing whatever he thinks is necessary. If you like the change, stick around; if you dont, piss off. What could be simpler? |
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Subject: RE: An Open Letter from Max to GUESTS From: GUEST Date: 10 Feb 02 - 04:50 PM Max D. Spiegel, Publisher sez: All of our sources of financing are highly deterred by the behavior and ability of GUESTS. Oh really? And just how does that work? Sorta like the DT indexing system? Seriously Max, I don't suppose you are willing to explain just how guests of Mudcat are depriving you of your income, because YOU FUCKING CAN'T BLAME OTHER PEOPLE FOR YOUR MONEY PROBLEMS!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Anyone wondering how Mudcat ever got this dysfunctional need only look to it's source.
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Subject: RE: An Open Letter from Max to GUESTS From: Nemesis Date: 10 Feb 02 - 04:56 PM You have my support Max for whatever you decide to do and it seems entirely reasonable (to me) to have people sign up, etc, before they post..... Hille |
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Subject: RE: An Open Letter from Max to GUESTS From: Deckman Date: 10 Feb 02 - 04:57 PM Max, do we really need to wait a couple of weeks? Bob |
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Subject: RE: An Open Letter from Max to GUESTS From: GUEST Date: 10 Feb 02 - 04:58 PM I have been around the Mudcat for nearly two years and I yet to see any Thread come close to The Campsite at Drumcree. This was absolutely brilliant, by far the funniest thing I have come across on the web and the major contributors were GUESTS,it seems a pity to lose such wonderful harmless fun. Ard Mhacha.. |
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Subject: RE: An Open Letter from Max to GUESTS From: GUEST Date: 10 Feb 02 - 05:03 PM Deckman said: Max, do we really need to wait a couple of weeks? Bob LOL, Deckman You obviously haven't been here long. Getting anything within 6 months of it's promised delivery date is astonishing. Don't hold your breath for [I]will post an Open Letter to Members in a week or two
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Subject: RE: An Open Letter from Max to GUESTS From: GUEST,That's right loverly, that is Date: 10 Feb 02 - 05:05 PM Subject: RE: File anonymous guest complaints here From: GUEST Date: 14-Aug-01 - 02:11 PM It's dysfunctional if the negative side of anonymity is always the focus. Anonymous guests also cannot be held accountable if they do something positive, like supply an answer to a question, or if by chance they compose a beautiful piece of music or solve the mystery of the universe ... all of which makes accountability a moot point and content the important thing. The issue of accountability deals with assigning blame or credit for something to an 'identity,' and treating that identity with animosity or respect, accordingly. Identity, blame, credit, respect and animosity don't matter to some people in this (and other) forums. They are less important to some than the content and composition of the information, ideas, or thoughts being expressed. Granted, the contents of some anonymous messages are designed to inflame, provoke, and/or confound. Whether the objective of these messages is met depends in part on the composition and content of the message, but also on the attitudes of the reader. On the other hand, the contents of some anonymous messages are designed to assist, inform, and/or enlighten. Whether the objective of these messages is met depends in large part on the composition and content of the message, but also on the attitudes of the reader. Or as has been stated before, it's not who says it that's important, but what is being said, and how the reader lets it affect him/her. Then again, it all boils down to what you want to believe. Not much anyone can do to change that, in either direction. So what's a mother to do? |
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Subject: RE: An Open Letter from Max to GUESTS From: Mark Cohen Date: 10 Feb 02 - 05:08 PM I think the fact that people are so emotional about this -- including the GUEST flamers -- indicates the high quality and staying power of this site. You're not going to please everyone. I'd like to second two suggestions that were made earlier, which Max may already be incorporating. First, the capability for a registered member to make a temporarily anonymous post -- for example, when discussing a personal issue (which could be related to music!). Second, a way for new visitors to post a request for a song without registering first. These could be screened to verify they are bona fide song requests (I'd be willing to take a few a day*, and I'm sure plenty of others would) and then posted as a regular thread (not a PermaThread or other separate collection), under the name of VISITOR REQUEST or some such. This would preserve one of the best parts of the 'Cat, namely, the wonderful discussions that often ensue when someone makes a song request. You might give the visitor an option of posting his or her email address, but I think it would be better to explain that answers will be forthcoming in the Forum. I suppose if you wanted to be fancy, you could have an automatic acknowlegement email with a link to the newly-created thread. That would be friendly, and I imagine not too difficult. Aloha, Mark *I would envision a file like the Help page, that would be accessible to administrators and volunteers. Each request would be followed by a link that says "Post this request". Whenever I logged on, then, I'd check the request file and review as many as I had time for. |
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Subject: RE: An Open Letter from Max to GUESTS From: Mary in Kentucky Date: 10 Feb 02 - 05:09 PM And doooooooowwwwwwwwnnnnnnnnnnnn came the good fairy... |
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Subject: RE: An Open Letter from Max to GUESTS From: DougR Date: 10 Feb 02 - 05:15 PM Right on Max. I don't know whether what you have in mind will take care of the problem or not. But whatever you do result in some improvement. The "againers" are already relishing the opportunity to beat any system you devise, it appears. I do believe, though, that we could help a lot if everyone, Guest and Member alike, would not post to threads started by Guests that are clearly intended to flame or troll from the get go. I suggested this a few weeks ago and I have practiced it since that time. I cannot imagine why anyone who enjoys visiting the Mudcat would object to becoming a member. I suppose it allows them to be bad boys and girls without anyone knowing who they are. Big deal. DougR |
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Subject: RE: An Open Letter from Max to GUESTS From: Big Red Date: 10 Feb 02 - 05:16 PM Max--You have my full support in whatever decision you make. Long live Mudcat! |
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Subject: RE: An Open Letter from Max to GUESTS From: GUEST Date: 10 Feb 02 - 05:24 PM As ever, Mark, you talk an enormous amount of sense. However, the nature of the 'net will (for the foreseeable future) allow people to abuse others trust. A perfect system doesn't exist, and anyone who is seriouly motivated in a desire to 'wreck' certain threads on mudcat, will succeed. Your ideas are regrettably pretty much unworkable, I think. A real shame. What will we get? More cliques, more flames, less new songs... Oh well ps Mark, how do I get you as my GP? |
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Subject: RE: An Open Letter from Max to GUESTS From: Deckman Date: 10 Feb 02 - 05:24 PM Brings the ballad of "Sam Hall" to mind. CHEERS, Bob(deckman)Nelson |
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Subject: RE: An Open Letter from Max to GUESTS From: GUEST,Rumplestiltskin Date: 10 Feb 02 - 05:35 PM Who is to blame for turning Mudcat into a paradise for trolls and flamers? Why it's YOU, the members of Mudcat. A troll or flamer might strike once or twice and get no response. When that happens, they move on to somewhere else. However, at Mudcat, trolls and flamers could always count on getting lots of responses from the members. Many times, braniacs like Joe Offer would tell you not to respond and they'd go away. But did you ever listen to the braniacs? Of course not. You were incapable. Don't blame the trolls, don't blame the flamers, IT'S ALL YOUR FAULT. |
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Subject: RE: An Open Letter from Max to GUESTS From: Max Date: 10 Feb 02 - 05:46 PM God, you fuckhead GUESTS don't even bother reading things carefully before you start spitting bile. My post started with a very polite and humble request to chill out. I'm not surprised by your disdain to this idea, only those with something to lose would be opposed to accountability. You are here. This place obviously means something to you, don't you care? We are not in financial trouble, we just need funded to exist, and your asinine behavior and childish quibbling are hurting that. No money is coming out of your pocket, is it? Yet you take advantage of this place. You want to criticize me for funding Mudcat, damn near single handedly, for 6 years and then losing that ability? Fuck off. There is a difference between criticism and spite. Have some common decency. If anyone can take criticism, its me. You all give me enough of it to fertilize the pastures of plenty. Censorship? Max's unfair policies? Worry about me wielding my power for anything other than the good of us all? Find one example of anything even remotely questionable that I have done in 6 years to set a scary precedent for the future of the Mudcat. Find one, and I'll shut the fuck up. Just remember, I've been the biggest supporter of the open forum, and stood up for anonymity above all others. Turn it around any which way you want, but the fact stands that you fucked that up. |
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Subject: RE: An Open Letter from Max to GUESTS From: Jeri Date: 10 Feb 02 - 06:10 PM Max, it's a TROLL! At the end of the day, you get to think about how many of us care about this place and you. You get to think about all the meetings that have happened - the new friends, music partners and loves - you can think about all the music that's been posted here, you can remember the music of the past and dream of what's to come. In short, you get to feel good about who you are and what you've done here. What's a troll left with? Nothing I'd personally want. |
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Subject: RE: An Open Letter from Max to GUESTS From: Gareth Date: 10 Feb 02 - 06:10 PM Max. Concur Gareth |
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Subject: RE: An Open Letter from Max to GUESTS From: Deckman Date: 10 Feb 02 - 06:11 PM Hi Max ... "You all give enough of it to me to fertilize the Pastures of Plenty" ... and I said "reminds me of the Ballad of Sam Hall!" I guess they can get our dander up, but they'll NEVER take the folksinger out of us! CHEERS and THANKS, Bob9deckman)Nelson |
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Subject: RE: An Open Letter from Max to GUESTS From: GUEST Date: 10 Feb 02 - 06:16 PM No Max, anonymous guests didn't fuck up anything. Your double standard of acceptable behavior, one for members and one for guests, is what has fucked this place up. Your two-tiered log-in which privleges members above guests fucked it up. Maybe you wouldn't have the problems you have if *you* treated everyone fairly, instead of just your members. I've said this before. Mudcat is one of several folk music forums/lists I frequent. I don't really care whether it is here tomorrow, and I don't mean that maliciously. Keeping free internet discussion forums afloat is just very low on my priority list in life. If you aren't going to do anything about the rude and obnoxious behavior of your members, which is all too often at the expense of your guests, then your forum deserves to fail. |
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Subject: RE: An Open Letter from Max to GUESTS From: katlaughing Date: 10 Feb 02 - 06:19 PM Just to keep the record straight: Bruce O always posted as a member, under that name up until the latter part of January 2000. |
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Subject: RE: An Open Letter from Max to GUESTS From: GUEST Date: 10 Feb 02 - 06:19 PM And BTW Max, calling people who criticize you "fuckheads" makes you part of the problem with Mudcat. |
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Subject: RE: An Open Letter from Max to GUESTS From: Max Date: 10 Feb 02 - 06:21 PM How are GUESTS depriving Mudcat of support? Because these people and organizations that contribute see your stupid, spiteful posts and question the value and purity of information here. No one comes here for you. They come here because there is valuable knowledge within our threads. Your sputtering just makes it harder to find, and far less pleasant to try. Yes, please do look to the source of Mudcat. I am very proud of it, for everything it is. Considering 1.8 million hits per month, 650,000 messages on 43,000 topics, 9000 members and countless GUESTS from all different countries and backgrounds, religions and ideals, I'd say we get along pretty damn well. It is an honor to be the source of this dysfunction. |
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Subject: RE: An Open Letter from Max to GUESTS From: GUEST Date: 10 Feb 02 - 06:22 PM Kat, the latter part of January 2000 was when GUEST was imposed go figure... |
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Subject: RE: An Open Letter from Max to GUESTS From: harpgirl Date: 10 Feb 02 - 06:27 PM ...gee Max what happened to your Buddha nature? LOL I may not like the changes (naturally) but I'm glad you're finally allowing yourself to get pissed off. That Emily must be a cool chick! hg |
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Subject: RE: An Open Letter from Max to GUESTS From: GUEST Date: 10 Feb 02 - 06:28 PM Max, Do you really think all the spite comes from GUESTS? Do you really think everything that GUESTS say is stupid, useless and wrong? To my mind, some GUESTS have said some quite honest and useful things in this thread. Whatever, it is, as you say, 'your forum' Do whatever you see fit, I wish you well. Personally, I don't think that it's the best solution
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Subject: RE: An Open Letter from Max to GUESTS From: katlaughing Date: 10 Feb 02 - 06:29 PM I am well aware of the significance of that date. FWIW, I've recently told Max I think he should get rid of the Guest login. At the time, I was very grateful that he implemented it, as it was my identity which was stolen. It has served its purpose. That it has been perverted for use by slime who don't give a dman about this site and the music, means it is time for something else. Still behind you 100%, Max. kat |
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Subject: RE: An Open Letter from Max to GUESTS From: GUEST Date: 10 Feb 02 - 06:32 PM the value and purity of information here Ever read any of Liz the Squeak's posts? I'm sure potential funders would find Liz's posts a great reason to fund a Folk site
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Subject: RE: An Open Letter from Max to GUESTS From: GUEST,fuckhead guest Date: 10 Feb 02 - 06:37 PM And what solutions hath been put forth by ye Big Dog Max for members of the fuckheaded persuasion? It seems Max knows full well I'm neither a troll nor a flamer. I'm simply someone who dares to lodge legitimate criticisms of Mudcat and DT here where it belongs, Mudcat opinion be damned.
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Subject: RE: An Open Letter from Max to GUESTS From: GUEST Date: 10 Feb 02 - 06:43 PM Kat, Proof that 'terrorism' works. I started the 'mouse healing' thread to get rid of your stupid healing threads. It did. I'm now trying to get rid of 'guests' Seems like thats working too.... |
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Subject: RE: An Open Letter from Max to GUESTS From: artbrooks Date: 10 Feb 02 - 06:43 PM As with Mark, I'd be glad to "adopt" some occasional legitimate inquirers if that's what it will take to get questions answered. |
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Subject: RE: An Open Letter from Max to GUESTS From: Deckman Date: 10 Feb 02 - 06:44 PM We shall over come, we shall over come We shall overcome, some day, Oh, deep in my heart, I do believe We shall overcome, some day br>CHEERS, Bob(deckman)Nelson |
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Subject: RE: An Open Letter from Max to GUESTS From: RangerSteve Date: 10 Feb 02 - 06:44 PM Max, do what you have to do. I'm with you all the way. |
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Subject: RE: An Open Letter from Max to GUESTS From: GUEST Date: 10 Feb 02 - 06:44 PM Yes, I'm sure catspaw's posting etiquette is a big recommendation for funders too. Especially those "kick Max in the balls" sorts of thread names. And then there are all those racist threads preserved "for our own good" while posts saying "so and so has a fat ass" get deleted. kat--there is a slight problem with your logic. Folk music lovers can easily hate this site because of bad mannered members, particularly their illogical "guest" vitriol (which they apparently learned from Max). |
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