Dan Milner - Song first / Singer second

Subject: Dan Milner - Song first / Singer second
From: John Routledge
Date: 01 Apr 02 - 01:07 PM

I am delighted to say that I heard three of Dan Milner and Bob Conroy's sets at Lancaster Maritime Festival this Easter.

Their varied material was superbly presented in a very relaxed and informed way.

What was particularly noticeable was that the egos of both Dan and Bob took a back seat to the songs themselves. Made for wonderful listening. Thanks Guys.

Subject: RE: Dan Milner - Song first / Singer second
From: Peter Kasin
Date: 01 Apr 02 - 02:12 PM

Glad you got to hear them. They are great.

Subject: RE: Dan Milner - Song first / Singer second
From: alanabit
Date: 01 Apr 02 - 02:18 PM

I have never heard either of these guys, but I hope I do. I could not agree more about the song first, singer second approach. It really pisses me off when singers are more interested in showing their voice instead of the song.

Subject: RE: Dan Milner - Song first / Singer second
From: Steve in Idaho
Date: 01 Apr 02 - 02:22 PM

They are superb -

Steve

Subject: RE: Dan Milner - Song first / Singer second
From: Peg
Date: 01 Apr 02 - 11:39 PM

I enjoy Dan's singing too. I do have a question; how is it that a singer shows off their voice more than the song they're singing? I cannot quite picture this. (And I am hoping I am not guilty of it)

Peg

Subject: RE: Dan Milner - Song first / Singer second
From: Peter Kasin
Date: 02 Apr 02 - 01:00 AM

I heard you sing when I was in Boston a couple of years back, Peg, and you're not guilty of that.

chanteyranger

Subject: RE: Dan Milner - Song first / Singer second
From: Bert
Date: 02 Apr 02 - 01:52 AM

Ah John, I've got to partially disagree with you there. Having heard Dan Milner I'll agree with you that he's great (I've not heard Bob Conroy). BUT, he, like all good folk singers, has the ability to make a song his own and sing it like no one else can.

Subject: RE: Dan Milner - Song first / Singer second
From: Big Mick
Date: 02 Apr 02 - 03:10 AM

And you ought to see him line dance and sing Pointer Singer harmonies with the biggest damn Mick you have ever seen, while consuming copius amounts of the vile dark stuff.

He also has the ability to drown a nightcrawler with great finesse.

And the formidable Bonnie hasn't murdered him alive as of yet!

And he finds great songs

And I stand there listening to him and wishing I could do that!

Mick

Subject: RE: Dan Milner - Song first / Singer second
From: Midchuck
Date: 02 Apr 02 - 08:42 AM

Peg, with your voice, it's all right if you do. But most of us don't have that quality of voice, and so we have to let the song speak more for itself!

I bought the "Irish in America" CD (from Dick Greenhaus at last year's Champlain Festival, IIRC) because I wanted to hear "The West Rutland Marble Bawn," (living about 15 miles from West Rutland) but it's become one of my most-played CDs that isn't country or bluegrass. I especially like the version of "The Sons of Liberty" that he does on that CD, and am working hard at stealing it (if a trad. song can be stolen).

West Rutland is also Dan Tyminski's home town. Wonder if he'd be interested in covering the song.

Peter.

Subject: RE: Dan Milner - Song first / Singer second
From: JedMarum
Date: 02 Apr 02 - 08:58 AM

I only know Dan through Mudcat, his "Irish in America" CD and his book "A Bonnie Bunch of Roses" - haven't seen him live, yet - but hope to one day. Dan's a wonderful singer and teller of tales. He's made a lasting and valuable contribution to the music world. I continue to enjoy his music and sing his songs.

Subject: RE: Dan Milner - Song first / Singer second
From: Peg
Date: 02 Apr 02 - 09:53 AM

erm...I was not fishing for compliments (but thanks!) and I really was curious what people think is an example of this sort of thing...I know I find it annoying when some female singers of traditional music use a very operatic sort of voice to sing trad songs but I am thinking this is not quite the same thing...

Subject: RE: Dan Milner - Song first / Singer second
From: John Routledge
Date: 02 Apr 02 - 12:33 PM

I agree with you entirely bert.

There is indeed plenty of evidence of Dan's presence and input in the singing of his songs but the song itself still comes first.

In particular there was no trace of "Aren't I just marvellous here in front of you singing" in his performances. This aspect made him a delight to listen to.

Forgot to buy "Irish in America" !! Must remedy.

Subject: RE: Dan Milner - Song first / Singer second
From: Big Mick
Date: 02 Apr 02 - 01:18 PM

Tongue in cheek above, serious here. This is how we describe Dan Milner in the liner notes for Billy O'Shea in our soon to be released CD

We learned "Billy O'Shea" from the singing of the Dan Milner of New York City.   Dan may very well be the finest singer of songs in this genre today.

Dan is a scholar, a performer, a wonderful singer, and most importantly a wonderful friend.

Bert, I agree with you, in the main. I think that the hallmark of a truly great singer is that they sink into the song with integrity and sincerity. These are the singers that can take a great song that you have heard so many times that you are sick of it, and still make you love it like the very first time you heard it. Dan never just "sings" a song. In his mind he IS the song, he IS the author. He understands that one our obligation is to do justice to the yarn being told, or the feelings being expressed.

I am exposed to many fine, some even great, singers. None are more talented than our Dan Milner.

Mick

Subject: RE: Dan Milner - Song first / Singer second
From: GUEST,Mike O'L-J
Date: 02 Apr 02 - 08:44 PM

Just about all the superlatives have been used ; theres not much I can add , other than to say ....It's all true! The intensity of his singing says it all.My Grandmother once told me " If you are going to sing,Mike,Sing it like you mean it". DAN MEANS IT. Also after many tears of singing and listening ; he still has a sense of exitement about Traditional songs and Singers.

Subject: RE: Dan Milner - Song first / Singer second
From: Barry Finn
Date: 02 Apr 02 - 10:32 PM

Dan aside from being a wonderful person is one of the rare singer's that not only suck's you into the song but it's also a great pleasure to then be taken to the world of that song & I can't think of a better place to be than in the house of a song he's singing.
Love ya Dan, Barry

Subject: RE: Dan Milner - Song first / Singer second
From: Steve in Idaho
Date: 03 Apr 02 - 04:04 PM

I guess I'd define it as - after he sings a song you may forget what he looks like - but you'll never forget the song. And if you don't have the CD - well Tsk tsk tsk -

Steve

Subject: RE: Dan Milner - Song first / Singer second
From: Steve in Idaho
Date: 03 Apr 02 - 04:05 PM

And Bob Conroy is the same way - - (forgot that in the above post) - - except he out Irishes the Irish

Steve

Subject: RE: Dan Milner - Song first / Singer second
From: Naemanson
Date: 03 Apr 02 - 04:52 PM

I'm not sure what is meant by song first, singer second. How does someone allow his/her ego take over? Would this be an instance of someone singing a song that doesn't seem tofit him (eg, me singing opera)?

I can see it with an instrumentalist. My interpretation would be a virtuoso player allowing his fingers to fill in the gaps on a traditional song with too much in the way of frills. It becaomes almost an improvization on the song.

Subject: RE: Dan Milner - Song first / Singer second
From: lamarca
Date: 03 Apr 02 - 05:38 PM

Naemason (and Peg), the analogy with instrumental frills is appropriate. There are some singers who will take traditional material, and arrange it to show off their singing style or voice, rather than trying to convey the words and melody and feeling of the song as clearly as possible.

Changing keys, distorting the phrasing to allow held-out notes, using melodramatic dynamic shifts, putting in vocal ornaments in a song style where ornamentation isn't usually used, assuming a false accent to sing a song from a different culture (rather than singing it simply and straightforwardly in your own voice) or learning songs just to show how clever you are can all become distractions from the essence of the song. (And I've been guilty of most of these at one time or another).

This is more true of songs that have a strong narrative element, where clear enunciation, careful phrasing and appropriate dynamics can convey both the story and the emotion in the song to the listener (instead of emphasizing the singer's performance).

Dan is a good, straightforward singer of songs, who presents material he really cares about. His obvious love of the music and his singing talent combine to show off the song itself.

Subject: RE: Dan Milner - Song first / Singer second
From: John Routledge
Date: 03 Apr 02 - 07:35 PM

Many thanks lamarca. Much clearer explanation than mine would have been.

Subject: RE: Dan Milner - Song first / Singer second
From: Naemanson
Date: 03 Apr 02 - 11:14 PM

Thanks, I can understand that.

Subject: RE: Dan Milner - Song first / Singer second
From: Peg
Date: 04 Apr 02 - 12:29 AM

yeah, lamarca, thanks for spelling out your thoughts on this clearly, and I see what you're saying but I actually do nearly all of those things you mentioned on a pretty regular basis! To be honest, I do not quite understand what you mean by some of these things. I mean, "learning songs just to show how clever you are" means what, exactly?

Changing keys? You mean, within a song? or transposing it from the usually key into one that is comfortable in your range?

Not sure what a melodramatic dynamic shift is; but I always thought shifts in dynamics were considered important in singing. Melodrama is probably to be avoided at all costs but then again I would bet different people have different definitions of that!

Subject: RE: Dan Milner - Song first / Singer second
From: nutty
Date: 04 Apr 02 - 04:29 AM

I've always thought of it as the difference between singing a song and performingone.

The performer takes the song and makes it their own ..... they give that extra which make it so listenable without being overly dramatic.

Many, who consider themselves just singers , are really performers of note ...unfortunately ...... many who consider themselves to be performers are often no more than second-rate singers.

Subject: RE: Dan Milner - Song first / Singer second
From: greg stephens
Date: 04 Apr 02 - 06:44 AM

I know what lamarca's saying about singing with an accent that is not your own, but is it alwayssuch a bad thing. Surely a lot of us learnour songs by joining in with other people at various collective singing occasions(clubs, sessions, parties or whatever). In that way of song sharing, surely we all subconsciously merge our vowel sounds or whatever into what the lead singer is doing, and once youve learnt a song by listening the way it was sung can become just as much a part of it as the words or the melody. So, bloody ridiculous as I may sound, if i sing a Scottish, Irish or American song at a session you're bound to get a bit of bad fake accent thrown in ( I have lived in various linguistically incompatible parts of England and have a mongrel accent all my own for speeking purposes). And lamarca, if you're against using other peoples accents, where do you stand on other peoples languages? I was singing with someKurdish friends last night, and I do try to join in a bit, difficult as it is.I may sound ludicrous, but it seems to create a friendly atmosphere. Do you think I shouldnt try?

Subject: RE: Dan Milner - Song first / Singer second
From: lamarca
Date: 04 Apr 02 - 11:49 AM

Greg, I think there's a difference between singing with friends and performing. To me, if you're singing with friends and sharing music in their language, that's great. However, if you try to perform a song that you've learned by rote in a language that you don't understand or speak, that's exactly what it will sound like - rote-learned. And for an suburban white girl like me to assume a West Virginia hillbilly accent or an Irish brogue to sing a song the way the source singer from whom I learned it did rings just as false in my ear. I try to learn songs that really grab me from many different places, and translate them into my own natural voice as much as possible (sometimes more successfully than others). This is just one of my personal bugaboos, and is probably more a matter of personal taste.

Peg, of course we have to sing songs in a key that's comfortable for our range - what I meant by changing keys are the people who start a song in one key, and then change to another key within the song several times for "dramatic effect". Again, it's a matter of how tastefully it's done, and whether it enhances putting the song across, or is done to call attention to the singer's virtuosity.

As far as learning material, when I first started singing in public, I didn't have much of a repertoire. The FSGW has monthly song swaps called Open Sings, where there is a topic, and the songs you sing a supposed to relate (however vaguely) to the topic - like "Passion (songs about love, crimes of passion, addictions, hobbies, etc.)" for February, or "As I Roved Out (songs about roving, wandering traveling, etc.)" for May. Sometimes I would learn a song that I really loved that happened to fit the topic; all too often I'd go find something funny or complicated or fit the topic in a devious way that I would learn so that everyone would see how clever I was. Funny thing - the songs I've learned because I really love the melody or the story or some twist of phrase in them have stayed in my memory, and I still sing them either in performance or with friends. The songs I only learned to fit a topic or to show off have long since slipped out of my memory.

Bob Zentz wrote a wonderful song about this -"My Favorite Song" (which doesn't seem to be in the DT):
Chorus: I wouldn't sing 'em if I didn't like 'em,
I wouldn't like 'em if I didn't care
I wouldn't care if you didn't listen,
There's a lot of good songs out there
Some songs are just like the people I know,
Some people like the songs I sing
And I never sang a song that I didn't love -
Or no song that didn't love me.

To me it's all a matter of being true to yourself and who you are as a singer, and what the song means to you that you're trying to convey to an audience. Sometimes passion and love for the material makes a better singer that training and fancy vocal chops...

OK, I'll get down off my soapbox now (until the next time...)

Subject: RE: Dan Milner - Song first / Singer second
From: Peg
Date: 04 Apr 02 - 12:20 PM

well, lamarca, it sounds like the "learning songs to be clever" thing is something you have personal issues with because you think that is what you were doing...but I kind of doubt that most people who go to an effort to learn new material would admit they do so in order to demonstrate how clever they are...this does not make sense to me. I think as long as one does not go out of their way to "show off" their vast repertoire at the expense of an otherwise pleasurable performance or gathering (like when certain sessiun instrumentalists in the Boston area insist on playing tunes they darn well know none of the other musicians are familiar with, so they can be assured of playing solo), then traditional singers should be encouraged to collect songs anywhere they can find them. Obscurity does not matter to me; the song's beauty or appeal does.

And as for "fake" accents...I sing songs in Irish and Gaelic language, and sometimes Breton and Cornish. None of them is my native tongue (in fact most singers who sing such repertoire would probably not consider these their first languages). So to sing in these languages, I need to pronounce the consonants and vowels properly; if I used flat, broad, American-style vowels, for example, I would not actually be singing in thise languages. I have heard people try to sing in Irish who use Americanized vowel pronunciation and it sounds terrible. I have gone to a lot of trouble to learn how to pronounce these lyrics credibly and as correctly as I can. If that makes me pretentious, so be it. I don't see this as being "fake" but rather an attempt at authenticity, and I see nothing wrong with it. if we all stuck to songs that matched exactly with our own regional dialects or accents we'd be mighty boring singers.

Peg

Subject: RE: Dan Milner - Song first / Singer second
From: lamarca
Date: 04 Apr 02 - 02:22 PM

I guess I'm not making myself very clear. First, I want to make sure you know that I'm not trying to criticize you or your choice of songs. It would be arrogant and presumptuous for me to criticize you - I'm just enjoying this argument for the sake of discussion :-)! (arguing is one of my family's favorite sports...) In that spirit, I will ascend my soapbox once again...

If you're singing in a foreign language, of course you should pronounce the words properly in that language. What I'm talking about is American singers (since that's where I'm from and that's what I know) who sing songs, in English, with an obviously faked accent, thinking the song sounds more "authentic" that way. My husband sings a lot of Australian songs - when he sings them, he does NOT try to imitate Paul Hogan's accent, he sings them straightforwardly in his own voice. I think that Americans can successfully sing Scottish songs that are in English with some Scottish dialect words, like bairn, yowes, etc, pronouncing the dialect words correctly but without faking a Scottish accent throughout the song. I think that ballads collected in Appalachia or the Ozarks sound just as gripping if the singer sings them in his or her own voice instead of imitating Jean Ritchie's or Almeda Riddle's accent.

No matter what the language, I think that it takes someone who is very familiar with the cadences, rhythm patterns, syllable accents, vowel sounds, etc. of that language or dialect to sing in that language or accent without sounding fake. Some singers do it well - to my ear, Connie Dover sings exquisitely in Gaelic - but I don't know how she sounds to a native Gaelic speaker. The French are notorious for turning up their noses at anyone else's attempts to speak their language - even Francophones from other countries.

It's also a matter of audience and their familiarity with the language and culture. I'm happy to hear American groups like the Kartuli Ensemble singing in Slavic languages; I don't know how true to the material they are because I don't speak Georgian, Bulgarian, etc, so I am not a discriminating listener. I know that I enjoy their harmonies and the overall sound. There are probably many American audiences who feel the same way about Americans singing Irish or Scottish songs - they like the sound, and the assumed accent makes it more enjoyable because it sounds more "authentic" to their uneducated ears. But what does it sound like to someone who is Scots or Irish? Does it matter?

I sing Scots and Irish songs that I've learned from people like Cilla Fisher and Frank Harte (two of my vocal heros) - when I first learn the songs, I always subconsciously imitate the recording, and it isn't until I'm really comfortable with the words and the melody and the phrasing that I start sounding like me (and I will never in a million years sound as good as Cilla or Frank)! I Anglicize the words that it feels awkward to pronounce in dialect - I'll usually sing "house", not "hoos"; "down", not "doon", for example. Gradually, the song becomes "mine", and I hope as enjoyable for other people to listen to as it is for me to sing it!

Subject: RE: Dan Milner - Song first / Singer second
From: lamarca
Date: 04 Apr 02 - 04:22 PM

I can't seem to let this go - it pushes a lot of my buttons. Peg said:
"but I kind of doubt that most people who go to an effort to learn new material would admit they do so in order to demonstrate how clever they are...this does not make sense to me..."

Some of the singers I hang out with seem to have an "obscurer-than-thou" attitude about repertoire, where, when we get together to swap songs, some folks seem to be trying to out-do one another in the "Oh, I learned this song from an antique 1832 song collection that no-one owns but me..." category. I've had some subtle (and some not-so-subtle) put-downs by the doyens of the singing session not because of the way I sang a song, but because my source wasn't esoteric enough...a typical reaction being:

Them: "Where did you get THAT version?"
Me: "Oh, I learned it from Daithi Sproule's new CD."
Them: "Oh - he's not very traditional..." spoken in a flat, put-down tone.

None of these people would ever admit that they learned a song for the sake of one-upsmanship - but they all clearly do it from time to time. This may be a social dynamic only encountered with this group of people - but, human nature being what it is, somehow I doubt it. Now that I'm not a newcomer to the song circle anymore, I'm not so sensitive, but, believe me, when I was beginning to sing, that kind of reaction was withering. You might say "Go find another group of singers", but, short of moving to another city or coast, it's hard to find a new, different group of people to hang with!

Anyway, to drift this back to the thread topic, Dan and Bonnie Milner have always been warm and friendly singers who love their songs, and I'll happily listen to a performance by them or sit and swap songs with them anytime!

Subject: RE: Dan Milner - Song first / Singer second
From: Liam's Brother
Date: 04 Apr 02 - 06:11 PM

Thanks for your kind comments.

I got back to NYC after 2 weeks in Ireland and England last night. It was great... so was returning home. It was really nice to make many new friends and meet many old ones. Bob Conroy comes in tomorrow. We're singing together on Sunday and I'm sure he'll appreciate your words very much.

The commercialization of folk music wasn't really strong in 1961 when I came to NYC. Only a few years later, pop singers, jazz singers and opera singers were making albums with titles like "My Kind of Folk Songs." Any actor who could carry a tune and would listen to his manager was instantly a folk singer. Some did World Tour type albums with a song each from 10 or 12 cultures. Party pieces with theatrics aside and within my own experience, I think it is in the mid-60's when the importance of performance first tried to overtake the importance of the song in folk music.

I've been spending a lot of time lately listening to 1940's field recordings of songs from New England. One interesting phenomenon from the lumber camps is that singers in the shanties (think "bothies" as in Scotland or "bunkhouses" as in Western ranches), tried to sing songs exactly as the singers from whom they were learning them. Therefore, you hear French-Canadians singing with brogues, etc.

Just one more observation because I'm treading on thin ice joining in on this thread at all; I should just say "thanks" and shut up really! In many places, people pay for fiddle, guitar, harmonica and even bodhran lessons. They will also get voice lessons to learn how to breathe and to focus from the right part of the anatomy, etc. However, the overwealming majority are simply happy buying a CD of a well known singer and learning their songs that way.

All the best,
Dan

Subject: RE: Dan Milner - Song first / Singer second
From: Amergin
Date: 04 Apr 02 - 06:19 PM

I got two of Milner's albums....the Irish in America and the (sorry but the name escapes me for the moment) sea songs one....and I love them both....have practically worn out each cd....

now if only you would come out west, Dan.....

Subject: RE: Dan Milner - Song first / Singer second
From: greg stephens
Date: 04 Apr 02 - 06:46 PM

Peg. How do you figure out a "correct" Cornish accent? Nobodys spoken it for 200 years. Are you trying to guess how it might have been spoken then? Or how it might be pronounced now, if it had developed,which it hasnt? I'm Cornish by the way. And if youre singing songs in Cornish, where did you get them from? Are they old songs,in which case I'd be very interested in where you found them, or are they by modern antiquarians? Cornish identity is important to me, so I hope you see why these questions are important to me.

Subject: RE: Dan Milner - Song first / Singer second
From: greg stephens
Date: 04 Apr 02 - 06:50 PM

Sorry, Dan Milner, this is way off-thread , but hell,you know what Mudcat's like.

Subject: RE: Dan Milner - Song first / Singer second
From: Peg
Date: 04 Apr 02 - 11:33 PM

lamarca; thanks for all those observations and anecdotes; it is helping me see the seissues more clearly from your perspective and I am now recognizing some of these experiences as my own, too! I am doing all this in the spirit of debate, etc. too so I was not thinking of this as a judgemental thing, just trying to figure what people mean when they say things, etc.

Greg:

I am friends with a Cornish scholar at Harvard and he has learned to speak it from native speakers in Cornwall. I realize in many case they may be mere revivers of the language as opposed to having been raised speaking it, but they are native speakers nonetheless. But to say it has not been spoken in 200 years is to ignore the contemporary linguists and scholars who are trying to revive it. I have learned songs from him (including one which is said to be very old) and I am guessing his pronunciation is correct since he has studied Cornish and I have not, but I guess I could be wrong since I do not know how the "correct" pronunciation sounds, not having studied it myself. However, I have studied Irish, Welsh and Gaelic, and one gets a feel for these Celtic languages after a while, so based on what I have read and heard, it sounds right enough to me. As for Cornish songs, there are a number of them in Peter Kennedy's big book of traditional songs...

Dan, thanks for your comments! I think everyone is thrilled to have you contribute to this thread!

Subject: RE: Dan Milner - Song first / Singer second
From: greg stephens
Date: 05 Apr 02 - 03:22 AM

Peter Kennedy's book is a disgrace in that respect, in that you have to read very carefullybefore you realise that the Cornish lyrics are modern translations into Cornish of songs originally collected in English.There is nevidence those songs were originally sung in Cornish. Now I am a pariotic Cornishman, but I dont need elaboratly faked old songs to prop up my sense of identity.

Subject: RE: Dan Milner - Song first / Singer second
From: greg stephens
Date: 05 Apr 02 - 08:02 AM

Pam my last posting was (a) churlish (youre not responsible for Peter Kennedy's sins) (b) nothing to do with Dan Milner (c) totally unhelpful in stimulating your interest in traditional Cornish music, which is what I wouldlike to do. I'll send you a PM which I hope will be more constructive! Cheers, Greg

Subject: RE: Dan Milner - Song first / Singer second
From: Peg
Date: 05 Apr 02 - 10:39 AM

no problem Greg, oh and my name is Peg BTW!

Subject: RE: Dan Milner - Song first / Singer second
From: greg stephens
Date: 06 Apr 02 - 02:03 PM

Peg sorry I typed Pam...she's my mother in law! Freudian slip

Subject: RE: Dan Milner - Song first / Singer second
From: Amergin
Date: 06 Apr 02 - 02:06 PM

watch it greg....that might be dangerous....

Subject: RE: Dan Milner - Song first / Singer second
From: RichM
Date: 06 Apr 02 - 03:42 PM

Song first / Singer second ?

Frankly, this question mystifies me. All music is open to personal interpretation-as it should be! Should singing be treated the same way as, for instance, figure skating? That is, boxed into narrow stylistic patterns, which become the artificial definition of good and bad?

I don't think so.
Sing it the way you feel it, even if it's not someone else's definition of traditional. Let your listeners decide.