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BS: What price friendship?
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Subject: What price friendship? From: GUEST,"Tiree" Date: 08 Apr 02 - 11:57 AM I am posting as a Guest not to Troll, but to ask the advice of friends who have been very helpful in the past here and to protect innocent parties that might be too easily identified if I use my real name. I ask for guidance and help on 2 questions: |
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Subject: RE: BS: What price friendship? From: catspaw49 Date: 08 Apr 02 - 12:04 PM A......Have a serious talk with X. B......Striking back is never a really great way to go....Check out the entire world situation. C......And now Johhny, what have we got behind Door Number 3??? Spaw |
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Subject: RE: BS: What price friendship? From: MMario Date: 08 Apr 02 - 12:06 PM Not knowing detail I can't say. However your "B-1" option doesn't seem a good idea to me.
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Subject: RE: BS: What price friendship? From: GUEST,"Coll" Date: 08 Apr 02 - 12:06 PM Er, hang on, I've forgotten the question. Maybe (a)2. Or possibly 3(c) |
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Subject: RE: BS: What price friendship? From: KingBrilliant Date: 08 Apr 02 - 12:07 PM As regards A : Sometimes misunderstandings happen - and sometimes two different people will have a wildly different perspective on the same events. Is it possible that X didn't realise the damage they were causing - could they just not have realised what a big deal it was? Could it be a joke gone wrong? Could Y be over-reacting? It seems strange for a friend of that long standing to suddenly go bad! I think the length of the friendship makes it worth digging into the situation to try to understand how this has come about. If, after investigation, X has done this out of sheer mischief or bitchery then the friendship is probably not worth salvaging. Concentrate on Y instead. As regards B: Definitely option 2. Don't get involved in reprisals - it can turn into a vicious circle. You probably would be very unhappy if you were to act in the same way as X, so just don't do it (why make yourself more unhappy). Lead by example and do as you would be done by - despite having already been done to... Best of luck with repairing the damage. Kris |
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Subject: RE: BS: What price friendship? From: Wincing Devil Date: 08 Apr 02 - 12:26 PM TALK IT OUT!With both "X" and "Y" sepeartely, then hopefully, together.As to your dirt on "X", remember what my grandmother (and everybody's grandmother) always said: "If you can't say something nice, don't say anything at all.". |
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Subject: RE: BS: What price friendship? From: Amos Date: 08 Apr 02 - 12:32 PM 1. Forgiveness is the option that will get you the furthest and bring you the most peace. 2. Communication (combined with 1) is the option that will bring about the most understanding and make the problem shift for you. 3. Before either of the above will work effectively you have to resume your ownership of the situation to whatever degree you have decided it was "done to" you. 4. Getting even will get you nowhere. 5. It is totally understandable that you night have deep-seated protest, outrage and upset and a sense of great injustice. But you have to live with your own actions, which will be a lot harder if you yield tot he invitation to do harm. 6. If communication proves to be impossible because of extreme defensiveness, justification, rationalization, or hostility from your old friend X, then send her blessings of well-being an dhappiness and get on with your life. In the final analysis, continually creating and then living up to your own best standards of right conduct will be your sole proof against slander.
A |
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Subject: RE: BS: What price friendship? From: GUEST Date: 08 Apr 02 - 12:34 PM What the hell. get it off your chest. What's X been up to exactly? |
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Subject: RE: BS: What price friendship? From: Mrs.Duck Date: 08 Apr 02 - 12:37 PM Yes, talk seriously to X resisting the temptation to throtle him/her!!!! Hopefully Y is more understanding and will listen to you rather than X. Dishing the dirt on X isn't going to solve anything and it could hurt the innocent. If all else fails say sod 'em there are still 24 other letters!!!! |
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Subject: RE: BS: What price friendship? From: GUEST Date: 08 Apr 02 - 12:48 PM A(2)B(2). Give us a hard one. |
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Subject: RE: BS: What price friendship? From: katlaughing Date: 08 Apr 02 - 04:05 PM There is just enough good in the worst of us And just enough bad in the best of us That it hardly behooves any of us To talk about the rest of us! Try having it out with X if it can be done without a lot of emotinal upset. If not, write a letter to them, telling them everything, put it away for a few days. Get it out, re-read it; if it is still how you feel, burn it, not only to free yourself from the bad feelings, but also to send the message on. X will know on some level. Take the higher moral ground and say nothing, probably even if asked by another party involved. We never know exactly what goes on between two others and they each even see it differently one from another. Talk with Y - keep those lines open as long as there is progress and it is meaningful for both of you. If Y gets hung up on what X said, then leave them alone. Sometimes people need time to sift through all of the data coming at them, esp. when it is on an emotional level. Hope this helps! kat |
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Subject: RE: BS: What price friendship? From: GUEST,Les B. Date: 08 Apr 02 - 04:16 PM So are you all the same gender? - The dynamics can be different, depending. |
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Subject: RE: BS: What price friendship? From: SharonA Date: 08 Apr 02 - 04:50 PM If Y is believing what X says and is doubting what you say, you'd better have a talk with Y as well as with X. I notice that you say X spoke about your "alleged conduct", but you didn't exactly say that X was lying. If X wasn't lying, then perhaps Y is feeling as betrayed by you as you are feeling betrayed by X. If this is the case, be prepared to do a lot of work on your friendship with Y. Whether X was lying or not, it seems that she has already decided to ditch you, whether she's told you outright or not. If she's already expressed this level of disinterest in having a friendship with you, it would be pointless for you to try to "preserve" something that's already spoiled. My guess is that Y is feeling ambivalent about X as well (Y may be thinking, "Whether or not X is lying to me, she's not being a very good friend to Tiree, so how can I trust her to be a good friend to me?"). You can help convince Y that you can be trusted by resisting the temptation to reveal X's secrets to the world. The important thing here to remember is that it's more important not to damage Y's trust than it is to damage X's reputation (besides, if you tell tales about X, she can just as easily say that you are lying, thereby breeding even more distrust in Y and in others!). |
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Subject: RE: BS: What price friendship? From: GUEST,Guest, Summer Isle Date: 08 Apr 02 - 04:52 PM What a prat! For the second time you have been caught out telling different stories to different people. Do you really think that your friends don't speak to each other and compare the stories you have told them? Do you not read the threads which tell people where you are? Do you not think that people will naturally speculate as to why the stories differ? |
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Subject: RE: BS: What price friendship? From: greg stephens Date: 08 Apr 02 - 05:42 PM katlaughing: did your grandmother have that poem framed on the wall? Mine did |
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Subject: RE: BS: What price friendship? From: katlaughing Date: 08 Apr 02 - 05:46 PM greg, no...I read it somewhere and put it up on my blackboard for all to see. It's a good one, isn't it? |
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Subject: RE: BS: What price friendship? From: Mickey191 Date: 08 Apr 02 - 06:25 PM Is there any possibility that Y has made this up in order to break up your long standing friendship with X? Perhaps Y wants you solely as his (her) friend and has an axe to grind with X which you are unaware of. Happens on soap operas all the time! A 10 year friendship is bankable, and makes it doubly hard to fathom betrayal. Good LUck! |
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Subject: RE: BS: What price friendship? From: JudeL Date: 08 Apr 02 - 06:27 PM You posted that you'd known x a long time, you don't say how long you've known y. You also don't say how you found out or if what y is saying has upset her is the truth or has enough of the truth that you recognise it or if it sounds like a complete fabrication. If it is a complete fabrication, the question may then be who made it up? (who is more likely to lie to you?) or is it a case of what was intended not necessarily being the same as what was heard or understood. If on the other hand you recognise what was said - is friend x the only source, friend y could have got it from? If there is no doubt that friend x has betrayed a confidence - the question is then was it intentional, & why? |
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Subject: RE: BS: What price friendship? From: Clinton Hammond Date: 08 Apr 02 - 06:28 PM Tune in next week for the exciting conclusion, on "As The Stomach Turns" ;-)
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Subject: RE: BS: What price friendship? From: Amos Date: 08 Apr 02 - 08:11 PM Great advice, kat -- always been one of my favorites. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: What price friendship? From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull Date: 08 Apr 02 - 08:28 PM Tell them both to bugger off, then go and listen to some nice music and have a bear.john |
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Subject: RE: BS: What price friendship? From: Jerry Rasmussen Date: 08 Apr 02 - 09:58 PM Kat'nAmos have a handle on this one. There's also an old saying that you should be careful not to dig a ditch for someone else, lest you fall in it yourself. No one ever "gets even." Jerry |
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Subject: RE: BS: What price friendship? From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull Date: 08 Apr 02 - 10:10 PM Imean a beer, not a bear! (I spelled it wrong) |
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Subject: RE: BS: What price friendship? From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull Date: 08 Apr 02 - 10:11 PM Bears are dangerous and can bite you) |
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Subject: RE: BS: What price friendship? From: 53 Date: 08 Apr 02 - 10:27 PM My first wife ran off with my best friend. I am not angry with my X but I am hurt that she ran off with my so called best friend. He and I were good picking buddies since 1982, and now I don't have a best friend. Friends are a great thing to have especially when you're down and out. Bob |
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Subject: RE: BS: What price friendship? From: Jerry Rasmussen Date: 09 Apr 02 - 01:28 AM You're right, Bob: I've come through some very hard times with the loving support of friends. But, no matter how much I am thankful for the handful of really true friends I've had in my life and the ones I still have, as the song says, "God bless the child that's got his own." There are places we all have to go where no friend can come with us. That's certainly what all this X, Y,Z, 1,2, 3 discussion is all about. Reducing experiences to letters and numbers may protect the privacy of Guest, but it doesn't reflect the reality and pain of what has happened. Letters and numbers don't feel anything. They don't hurt...
The best that can come from all of this is that you realize that YOU are priceless, Guest, and that you are not the one who has lost everything. Whatever has happened, which is hard for us to know, keep your own integrity. That's something only you can destroy. No one else can take it from you. Jerry |
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Subject: RE: BS: What price friendship? From: Kim C Date: 09 Apr 02 - 09:53 AM I say first try to talk about it honestly and see what happens. I have a question. When you are hurt that a friend seemingly doesn't have time for you anymore, is it best just to accept it as the ebb and flow of things, and check back later to see how they're getting on? I know all relationships go through many phases. My brain says that's the best way, but my heart has trouble catching up sometimes. |
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Subject: RE: BS: What price friendship? From: GUEST,Truthtroller Date: 09 Apr 02 - 09:59 AM 53 serves you right. You should have had your wife as your best friend. Duh?! T.T. |
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Subject: RE: BS: What price friendship? From: Amos Date: 09 Apr 02 - 10:01 AM Friendships wither when they are not actively created at some level. If you have a friend who is busy with other things...even if that seems hard...you can either wish them happiness in their current activities, or do something they will find more rewarding than that. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: What price friendship? From: RichM Date: 09 Apr 02 - 10:06 AM TruthTroller, that's a cruel, unnecessary comment. What do you hope to achieve with it? |
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Subject: RE: BS: What price friendship? From: Amos Date: 09 Apr 02 - 11:32 AM Maybe truthteller is suffering from a Cassandra complex. But I would think it more likely that it is a shallow and uninformed gibe with little or no foundation. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: What price friendship? From: SharonA Date: 09 Apr 02 - 11:44 AM To 53: Wow, that must've been rough, Bob. At least things worked out so that you have Glenda now. I have to assume that, when you say "now I don't have a best friend", you mean you don't have a male good-buddy to do guy-stuff with. Still, if you don't want to spend the rest of your current marriage sleeping on the couch, you probably ought to mention what a good friend Glenda has been to you! :^) |
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Subject: RE: BS: What price friendship? From: GUEST,"Tiree" Date: 09 Apr 02 - 11:49 AM My thanks to all who have contributed, with the possible exception of Summer Isle who seems to be addressing something specific and not the issue of friendship outlined in my first post. The chances of reasonable meaningful conversation with X are not good just now, as the urge to "grasp them warmly by the throat" is very strong due to the distress that X has caused Y and that communication with Y is strained due to the climate of suspicion that has thus been created. I am trying to decide if X is just terminally stupid and unaware of the consequences of their actions, and therefore has no idea of the extent to which this action has hurt Y and myself, or is a vicious, nasty, vengeful, spiteful person lashing out because life is not treating them well just now and they want to share the hurt they feel around It is not the accuracy or veracity of the statements X has or is making with which I am taking issue as there is often an element of perception and point of view about these matters, that possession of the full facts by the parties involved might alter, but the backstabbing action towards a friend of long standing, who has shared and supported, and in their turn been supported, in good and bad times. If you like it is less about the detail of this particular set of circumstances and more about the nature of a friendship and expectations one may have of ones friends in delicate and confidential matters, and thus whether this one is damaged beyond repair or recovery. This ( the positive posts above) is why I sought help here and for which I am grateful. Sympathies to 53, and KimC sometimes things get busy in everyones life, real friends turn up again and renew contact, arent you ever "very busy with living" and have to frantically remake contacts after a (brief) lapse? |
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Subject: RE: BS: What price friendship? From: Kim C Date: 09 Apr 02 - 01:56 PM Yes, I am often very busy... part of my distress is I know I have probably been too hard on this particular person, and am beating myself up over it, for no really good reason. This is the same friend who tells me I worry too much. :-) This too shall pass. Is it possible all three of you could have a conversation? Granted, it would be most uncomfortable, but it might work. Then maybe you could find out why X has acted in such a way, and then act accordingly. Your idea that perhaps this person is miserable, and wants to make everyone else miserable, may be right. |
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Subject: RE: BS: What price friendship? From: SharonA Date: 09 Apr 02 - 02:04 PM Translation: "At least on some level, what X said to Y is true. It's true for X, at any rate." Is that accurate, Tiree? Without more specifics I can only speculate, but perhaps X considers this true thing to be part of the "issue of friendship" for her friendship with Y. Even so, betraying a confidence that you have shared with X, trusting that X would keep it to herself, is quite serious. If X was uncomfortable keeping your secret, for whatever reason, she should have told you that before leaking it. Oddly enough, over the last several months, I have been the "Y" party in a similar situation, where my friend the "X" party (not a friend of such long standing as your X) gave me several warnings about the party-with-secrets (let's call him "Z"), in whom I had a budding romantic interest. In my case, I took my "X" 's words under consideration but didn't mention them to "Z", and I didn't steer clear of "Z" until he had said and done some things on his own that caused me to think that any kind of relationship with such a person was not a good idea. My friend "X", being unaware of this, called me later and said, basically, "Forget what I said about 'Z'; it may not be true anymore; why don't you give him another chance?" By then, of course, I already had, and "Z" had already blown that chance! One of these days I'll have to talk to both my "X" and "Z" about it, but right now I'm still feeling that "grasp warmly about the throat" feeling toward both of them! |
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Subject: RE: BS: What price friendship? From: SharonA Date: 09 Apr 02 - 02:15 PM P.S. – By the way, in my case, the specific warnings that my [male] friend "X" gave me had nothing to do with the things my potential-boyfriend "Z" did and said that made me decide to avoid him. |
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Subject: RE: BS: What price friendship? From: Catherine Jayne Date: 09 Apr 02 - 02:35 PM Talking it out is probably the best way. However if X was a friend then they would not gossip. If they had a problem with your behaviour then they should (if they were a true friend) in theory talk to you about it. People like that are not worth having as friends they will only hurt you and the people around them. They will undoubtedly lose their friends and those who are close to them. Good luck Cat |
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Subject: RE: BS: What price friendship? From: GUEST,Guest: DW at work Date: 09 Apr 02 - 05:31 PM It looks like you're assuming several things. That X told Y malicously and deliberately to hurt either you or Y. That Y is gullable and stupid, or that X is stupid and suicidal. What is it that makes Y beleive X more readily than you? HAve you perhaps given Y cause for doubt already and X just filled in a few missing gaps unwittingly? If you know enough about X's activities to blackmail X (which is what B1 is, an intent to blackmail), then why would X deliberatley tell Y stuff to hurt you? Could it be that X has been hurt or let down by you in the past or made to chose between you and a hypothetical Z? MAybe you pushed them too hard. They are, after all only human and just as suseptible as you. If X has been a freind for so long (10+), then you must have some idea what they are like, have they done this sort of thing deliberatley before? Likewise, if you've been freinds for so long, maybe X knows you too well and doesn't want to see freind Y get hurt knowing that Y is less able to take it than you. Whatever, you have to talk to X and Y and the hypothetical Z if there is one. If you threaten X with telling all, are you sure there isn't something else they know that they might use against you? Or maybe, your consceince is telling you something you don't want to listen to. DW
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Subject: RE: BS: What price friendship? From: GUEST,with long hair smoking funny tobbacco Date: 09 Apr 02 - 06:01 PM Do you think that x wanted to stay with y as a friend or that y after sleeping with w then didn't want to know that b used to come around with c and x and them got it on before z turned up and said hey that's a f of a job to overlook guys why don't we.......... Wow!! What is that C.I.A.stash? ( Maybe I'm not getting good shit} |
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Subject: RE: BS: What price friendship? From: Amos Date: 09 Apr 02 - 09:49 PM The chances are to some degree that your friends are wearing costumes you have somehow designed for them. The filters make that aspect of them visible to your experience. Not to sound too much like a Granola bar. When you undo your own side fully, the things which you find distressing in them will also change. Until then, stand back and breathe deep and let it chill, man; communication will arrive when the communicator is ready, to paraphrase a saying. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: What price friendship? From: Celtic Soul Date: 09 Apr 02 - 10:01 PM Hoboy....Been there and done that. Sometimes people just see a thing the way they see it, and the hell with facts and reality. The hell with their own guilt, they're too busy concentrating on yours to be troubled to look at their own failings. Friend X may be completely blind to his/her own crimes in that same area. Many times, the thing with which we take the greatest issue is the thing of which we are ourselves most guilty. Talking might make a diff, if for no other reason than to get a better grasp on "why" friend X has done what he/she has done. Sometimes the answer is, however, not what we may want to hear. In any case, anyone who is willing to slander you behind your back to a mutual friend (or a total stranger, or common enemy for that matter) instead of coming and talking to you *as* a friend, is (in my opinion) *not* your friend. Just a thought... |
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Subject: RE: BS: What price friendship? From: GUEST Date: 10 Apr 02 - 05:46 AM You no doubt deserve the friendships you have.
With your twisted ideas they are probably the best you could come up with.
You are judged by the company you keep, and water seeks its own level. |
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Subject: RE: BS: What price friendship? From: KingBrilliant Date: 10 Apr 02 - 07:29 AM I was thinking about the friends thing overnight. I came to the conclusion that there is generally a lot of rubbish talked about whether people are "worth" your friendship, and whether they deserve to be deemed a friend. In my experience no one is all good or all bad - and its perfectly possible to have friends who are appalling in some aspects. The trick is to know the limitations of the friendship. Hence don't just expect a friend to keep your secrets, any more than you can just expect them to conform you your own moral codes and attitudes. You can't control your friends, but you can take the rough with the smooth - and try to see the best in people rather than dwell on the negatives. Kris |
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Subject: RE: BS: What price friendship? From: SharonA Date: 10 Apr 02 - 09:28 AM Kris says, "...don't just expect a friend to keep your secrets, any more than you can just expect them to conform you your own moral codes and attitudes." Good point! Tiree, you can save yourself a lot of grief by simply seeing this experience as a lesson in risk-taking: you're the one who took a risk by taking X into your confidence. Basically, you have only yourself to blame, so grasp yourself by the throat first before lashing out at X! |
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Subject: RE: BS: What price friendship? From: GUEST,Friend Date: 10 Apr 02 - 09:55 AM Its a hard lesson to learn - basically you cannot trust anyone with secrets. I found out that the hard way. I would suggest that you do nothing to X, but remember what X did and don't put yourself in that position again. I believe in Karma. KB is right, no one is all good or all bad, you though would have thought that after 10+ years, you would have an idea of X's loyalty. Perhaps X has gone mad, or deliberately wants you to break her/his confidence cos she/he is too chicken to do it. Anyway, I hope things get better for you and Y, my very best wishes to both of you your friend |
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Subject: RE: BS: What price friendship? From: GUEST,Mr Red Date: 10 Apr 02 - 10:23 AM Well the Moral high ground is satisfying but grubbing around in the dirt is more fun I personally would go for open-handed tactics - Tell X (symbol of love and friendship?) that you are aware and give X a chance to justify (and maybe shift the blame). Also suggest that you haven't dished the dirt in kind - let X figure the rest of the potential you have for Xselves. Oh! & I would state the open-handed tactics - if you have no more secrets you have all the aces (in spades!). Oh - and as the red devil's advocate can I remonstrate with you for moral torpitude? Is that OK? ***BG*** I have been known to write songs on such delicate subjects/scenarios and sing (in public) to the "interested" parties - with the right approach and sufficient detachment it can be very effective. Or clumsy - best of luck. |
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Subject: RE: BS: What price friendship? From: Morticia Date: 10 Apr 02 - 06:13 PM I'm curious about X.What on earth would make him/her do such a thing after the 10+ years you have been friends? And if indeed you know the nature of their "skeletons in the closet", why would they take the risk of alienating you in such a way? None of it makes any sense....unless X did not realise the potential harm in what they were saying.....or doesn't care, either for your confidentiality or theirs.Sorry either way, crap situation to be in. |
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Subject: RE: BS: What price friendship? From: GUEST,"Tiree" Date: 12 Apr 02 - 06:35 AM Thanks , all who have shown an interest in this, Morticia especially, Thanks for the thoughts, KingBrilliant and SharonA, you are of course, both right, no one is ALL good or Bad, but experience over such a long period ( well more than 10 years)of association has led one to believe that "secrets" were "safe" with this person, much and many highs and lows on both sides have been shared and survived, many of the significant occurrences of both lives have been lived and shared during the friendship, this is a very strange and unexpected break in the "pattern" of X's behaviour. |
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Subject: RE: BS: What price friendship? From: GUEST Date: 12 Apr 02 - 09:35 PM Ya know, on second thought you better save THIS friendship at all cost.
With your attitude you certainly won't find many more. |
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Subject: RE: BS: What price friendship? From: khandu Date: 12 Apr 02 - 10:37 PM Don't sink to a low level by revealing things you know in vengence. Gain wisdom in this. The snake bit you. Confront the snake. Forgive the snake (for your own well-being!)Do not strike out in vengence. But do not allow yourself to be put in position for the snake to bite you again. khandu |