Lord Lovel, lyrics query

Subject: Lord Lovel, lyrics query
From: Hilary
Date: 22 May 02 - 06:29 PM

Lyrics are in the database but sorry, machine can't do blickies. If you don't know the story, 'he' goes off to see strange counties, decides he misses 'her', so he comes back but she has died of sorrow, so he promptly dies too.

A couple of lines from Lord Lovel puzzle me :

Lady Nancy died as she might be today,

Lord Lovel he died [as]* tomorrow.

*included or not, depending on your source.

I think 'died as she might be yesterday' maybe means her body hasn't decomposed, suggesting purity/saintliness.

But what does 'died as tomorrow' mean ??? Just wordplay - yesterday v tomorrow. Literally - dying tomorrow means he hasn't actually died yet - so a prediction ? -how he feels ????

Any ideas ? It's bugging me, & I don't like singing a song if I'm not to give at least a reasonable explanation.

Much thanks, Hilary

Subject: RE: Lord Lovel, lyrics query
From: GUEST
Date: 22 May 02 - 06:35 PM

Oral tradition + misheard words, result in nonsense

tell them that...

Subject: RE: Lord Lovel, lyrics query
From: Stewie
Date: 22 May 02 - 07:22 PM

I believe Guest is right and what you have is a mishearing. Some examples:

Child A:

Lady Ouncebell died on the yesterday
Lord Lovell on the tomorrow

Child B:

Fair Nancybelle died, as it might be, this day
Lord Lavel he died tomorrow

Cox 12 A text:

Lady Nancy died as it might be today
Lord Lovel he died tomorrow

Cox 12 B text:

Nancy Belle died this one glad day
Lord Leven died tomorrow

Cox 12 C text:

Lady Ouncebell died as it were today
Lord Lovell he died tomorrow

--Stewie.

Subject: RE: Lord Lovel, lyrics query
From: GUEST,Hilary, not logged in
Date: 23 May 02 - 01:39 AM

... sounds about right,

Thank you

Hilary

Subject: RE: Lord Lovel, lyrics query
From: GUEST,chipinder
Date: 23 May 02 - 04:07 AM

Similar constructs appear elsewhere - eg Barbara Allen: "Sweet William died on yesterday And I shall die tomorrow"

Subject: RE: Lord Lovel, lyrics query
From: Noreen
Date: 23 May 02 - 04:22 AM

It just means that she died on the one day, and he died on the next- but a more poetic way of putting it.

It also allows tomorrow to rhyme with sorrow, as in

And one of them died as if on today
And the other as if on tomorrow
Queen Elizabella died out of true love
Lord Donegal he died out of sorrow.

Noreen

Subject: RE: Lord Lovel, lyrics query
From: Hilary
Date: 23 May 02 - 04:39 PM

Hmmm.

Thanks for the variations Stewie. Thinking about the drift theory overnight - if it was a mishearing/error- it must have been an early one as all the variants seem to have stuck with today/tomorrow.

Hi Noreen, it's a good rhyme- sounds like a solid technique - between sorrow/tomrrow today/tomorrow that's a verse written. Thanks.

Hilary

Subject: RE: Lord Lovel, lyrics query
From: Amos
Date: 23 May 02 - 05:12 PM

Frank Warner sings:

"Lord Lovell he died as it were today,
Lady Nancy died on the morrow";

which makes perfect sense in a relative time frame and adds to the immediacy of the song, even though it is staged hundreds of years past.

Regards,

A

Subject: RE: Lord Lovel, lyrics query
From: Dicho (Frank Staplin)
Date: 23 May 02 - 05:23 PM

Good Lord, what's the problem? "Tomorrow" is a hell of a lot better in the songs than "he died the next day." Good English it ain't, but it sounds OK. Tomorrow has a nice round sound to it.
Or, let's go whole hog and edit 57 (in Bronson)
Lady Nancy she died as it might be today (let's substitute "as the case may be," or "as it happens")
Lord Lovel he died tomorrow (substitute "on the very next day" or on the following day"), "On the morrow" would be better and would still permit the rhyme with sorrow.
Lady Nancy, she died of pure, pure grief,
Lord Lovel he died of sorrow, -row, -row, (change to unalloyed sorrow- the -row stuff is kitchy)
Lord Lovell he died of sorrow (too much sorrow here- substitute "He had no time to borrow." (doesn't make much sense but avoids repeating "sorrow."

These are old folk songs, full of old constructs, old dialect, sung by the common people, and have not been polished to perfection for inclusion in The Oxford Book of Child Verses for the Sophisticated Semioticist.

Subject: RE: Lord Lovel, lyrics query
From: GUEST,Sue
Date: 04 Mar 07 - 08:48 AM

Does anyone have a set of lyrics to "Lord Donegal"? Can't find one to save my life

Subject: RE: Lord Lovel, lyrics query
From: Noreen
Date: 04 Mar 07 - 10:04 AM

I'll tupe it out for you if no-one has one to hand- I sing the version from the Keane sisters.

Subject: Lyr Add: LORD DONEGAL
From: Noreen
Date: 04 Mar 07 - 11:21 AM

LORD DONEGAL
(Trad., from the singing of Rita and Sarah Keane of Caherlistrane, Co. Galway)

Lord Donegal he stood at his own hall door
Brushing his milk white steed
When he was addressed by his own queen Isabel
Who hastened to wish him God Speed.

Saying, "Where are you going, Lord Donegal?" she said
Saying, "Where are you going from me?"
"I am going to New England, my own Queen Isabel
Some other strange country to see."

"When will you return, Lord Donegal?" she said
"When will you return to me?"
"When a day and a year has all passed and gone
I'll return and get married to thee."

"That is too long, Lord Donegal" she said
"That is too long for me
For you might forget your own Queen Isabel
And pick up some other lady."

Well he had not been gone but a very short time
But a day and a half a year
When sorrow and sighing came in to his mind
In vain could he seek his own dear

And as he was returning all alone
Rushing his milk white steed
He heard the sound of a peaceful bell
And the ladies all mourning their being

Saying, "Who is this that is dead on today
And is going to be buried on tomorrow?"
"It's the king's only daughter," the ladies replied
"They called her Queen Elisabella."

Then he ordered the coffin right opened to be
And the shrouds to be turned down
And he fell a-kissing her cold, pale lips
As the tears came rolling down

Saying, "Now that I've kissed your cold pale lips
And you can never kiss mine
A vow and a promise I'll make unto thee
I'll never kiss any but thine."

Then one of them died as if on today
And the other as if on tomorrow
Queen Elisabella died out of true love
Lord Donegal he died out of sorrow

One was buried in Saint Mary's church
And the other in Mary's choir
Over Elisabel there grew a red rose
And over her lover a briar

They grew and they grew to the church steeple-top
Until they could grow no higher
Then they knotted together in a true-lover's-knot
For all the world to admire.

NMK 03/07

Subject: RE: Lord Lovel, lyrics query
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 04 Mar 07 - 08:34 PM

This appears to be the only known form of 'Lord Lovel' with that title. It's fairly close to the usual words, though the names have been changed. Do the Keanes give any information on their recording as to where they got it?

Subject: RE: Lord Lovel, lyrics query
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Mar 07 - 02:42 AM

There is no information on the sleeve notes of the album 'Once I Loved' as to where the Keane's got there version.
They pronounce the name "Don Eagle".
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Lord Lovel, lyrics query
From: leeneia
Date: 05 Mar 07 - 10:37 AM

Dicho, the problem is that someone has stuck an unnecessary and careless word into the line and made it nonsense.

"Lady Nancy died as she might be today" should be

Lady Nancy died as might be today.

I have seen the phrase "as might be" before in old literature. It seems to convey a cupful of "perhaps" mixed with a tablespoon of "so to speak."

Subject: RE: Lord Lovel, lyrics query
From: GUEST,Sue
Date: 09 Mar 07 - 09:25 AM

Noreen,

    Thank you so much!!! This is awesome! I am doing some research on the ballad "Lord Lovel". This piece is the missing link, that is, it represents the original folk tradition. In in other words, "Lord Lovel" is really "Lord Donegal" in terms of its storyline and so forth.

Viscount Lovel was a Yorkist sympathizer (mid-1600's) who dissappeared after the battle of Stokes and there is documentatiion that he went to Scotland where he was received by the king. Check out Childs manuscripts 75A and 75E. The "high chancel" or "high chappel" (tower) and "choir" as burial plots refer to the 1547 fire at St Mary's church, set by the English, in which all that remained was the tower and choir. None of the other copies of this "folk song" have these references. That is because "Lord Lovel" didn't start out as a folk song. It's an artful composition.

Subject: RE: Lord Lovel, lyrics query
From: GUEST,More info...
Date: 09 Mar 07 - 10:08 AM

I should specify that I am talking about St. Mary's Church in Dundee, Scotland. Note the response from the Presbyterian camp. (Keep in mind there was no "St Mary's kirk" per se until they rebuilt the church and so renamed it. It became the first reformed church in Dundee).

75B.11        Lord Lavel was buried in Mary's kirk,
        Nancybelle in Mary's quire;
        And out o the ane there grew a birk,
        Out the other a bonny brier.
75B.12        And ae they grew, and ae they threw,
        Until they twa did meet,
        That ilka ane might plainly see
        They war twa lovers sweet.

75I.16        The tane was buried in Mary's kirk,
        The tother in Mary's choir,
        And out of the tane there sprang a birch,
        And out of the tother a briar.
75I.17        The tops of them grew far sundry,
        But the roots of them grew neer,
        And ye may easy ken by that
        They were twa lovers dear.


Birk was chosen to replace the rose in the metaphor because it rhymes with kirk and also because it has the right symbolism for Calvinist sentiments- Druidic symbol for purification, used in brooms.

"Lord Lovel" has a rich history of parody. It has served as a medium for much religious/political dialogue. How about this?:

75G.9        'Deal well, deal well at Isabell's burial
        The biscuit and the beer,
        An gainst the morrow at this same time
        You'll aye deal mair and mair.
75G.10        'Deal well, deal well at Isabell's burial
        The white bread and the wine,
        An gainst the morn at this same time
        You'll deal the same at mine.'
75G.11        They dealt well, dealt weel at Isabell's burial
        The biscuit an the beer,
        And gainst the morn at that same time
        They dealt them mair an mair.
75G.12        They dealt weel, dealt weel at Isabell's burial
        The white bread an the wine,
        An gainst the morn at that same time
        They dealt the same again.

This is Romeo and Juliet, West Side Story stuff. It is obviously a plea for pleace amongst Scots despite differing religious traditional. This verse was actually borrowed from other related folk ballads but only in this one do we have the reciprocal thing going on and any mention at all of "biscuit and beer". It is traditionally the "white bread and the wine". Prety neat huh?