Lyr Req: Lakes of Pontchartrain - Irish Words

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Lakes of Ponchartrain - Irish Words
From: greg stephens
Date: 12 Jun 02 - 01:51 PM

Hey Declan, dont apologise, misunderstandings in the air, Sorry if I sounded stroppy, inadvertent.I was just repeating a quip by an Irish musician friend "Funny that the definitive Irish song was sung by a Scotsman (Andy I), learnt off a Yorkshieman, and it's about Louisiana". I'm not anti irish, honest: I just dont like Riverdance. And to prove it, come round and have a drink and go through my Irish record and book collection...you'll be here for weeks! (I've already typed this out once and itsseems to have vanished into the air...if it appears again..too bad) Cheers Greg

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Lakes of Ponchartrain - Irish Words
From: GUEST,Nerd
Date: 12 Jun 02 - 01:35 PM

BTW, Dicho, two separate posts in this thread have established that there ARE Irish words, translated from English by Francie Mooney. Whether they're "necessary" is anyone's call, I suppose, but they do exist! You should try to read the threads first; even if the discussions go on ad nausaeum, they do sometimes add new information...

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Lakes of Ponchartrain - Irish Words
From: GUEST,Nerd
Date: 12 Jun 02 - 01:32 PM

Ballyholme, I think you're right, there IS a version in Sam Henry. This may be what gave Mike Waterson the impression there were Irish connections.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Lakes of Ponchartrain - Irish Words
From: Ballyholme
Date: 12 Jun 02 - 01:29 PM

Christy did get The Lakes of Ponchartrain from Mike Waterson but something tells me that their is a version in the Sam Henry Collection. If John Moulden is online he can certainly tell me if I'm right or wrong.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Lakes of Ponchartrain - Irish Words
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 12 Jun 02 - 01:26 PM

So what is the Irish word for alligator?

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Lakes of Ponchartrain - Irish Words
From: Dicho (Frank Staplin)
Date: 12 Jun 02 - 01:26 PM

This song has been discussed ad nauseum; there are as many versions as there are people who have sung the song, but so far, no Irish words. I don't see why they would be necessary. The thread mentioned and given a clickie by Ian C (21105) has the most data. There are four versions in the DT. Many of the folksong books have a version or two. One in Randolph is called "The Ponsaw Train." The song may be based on an English ballad about a lass (see the thread mentioned above).
Definitive version? You may have a favorite, but why should one set of verses be declared definitive? Another version is in thread 7008: Lakes

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Lakes of Ponchartrain - Irish Words
From: GUEST,Nerd
Date: 12 Jun 02 - 01:26 PM

Indeed, Bill, I did not think you had suggested that Paul sang it on the album. I was just saying that, since it predated his being in the band, it was already in Planxty's repertoire when he joined. Therefore, he'd have to learn at least the guitar parts when he joined up, and that was a reasonable place to assume he first came in contact with it.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Lakes of Ponchartrain - Irish Words
From: GUEST,Nerd (again)
Date: 12 Jun 02 - 01:23 PM

Here's what Peanut Butter himself has to say!

"After the collapse of my previous band The Johnstons I was stuck in a going nowhere period in New York City in late 73 when I got a letter from my friend, the uileann piper Liam O'Flynn asking me to come home and join Planxty, the great Irish folk band of that era. It was a complete change of direction for me. Although I had recorded lots of traditional music and songs in the late 60's/ early 70's with the Johnstons, I was at that time moving in a contemporary songwriting direction. Arriving home in Ireland the following year, the Planxty album that was currently in the shops included a song sung by Christy Moore, 'The Lakes Of Pontchartrain'. I loved it.

Two or three years later when the band had broken up and I was touring with Andy Irvine, I drifted back to the song and eventually decided to do my own version when it came to recording my first solo album 'Welcome Here Kind Stranger' in 1978. It quickly became one of my most popular songs and for years later and to the present day people ask me to sing it."

--Paul Brady

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Lakes of Ponchartrain - Irish Words
From: GUEST,Bill Kennedy
Date: 12 Jun 02 - 01:23 PM

that info was found here BTW:

http://www.altan.ie/news/items/item-22.phtml

I thought I had implied that Paul was NOT the singer on the Planxty album cited, prob. Christy, but that Paul's WHKS version was derived and very similar.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Lakes of Ponchartrain - Irish Words
From: GUEST,Bill Kennedy
Date: 12 Jun 02 - 01:20 PM

found this info:

Trip to Galway Thu 27 Apr 2000

Francie Mooney television special.

Trip to Galway. One of the most popular progammes on TG4, Irelands Gaelic language television channel, is Sibin. The final programme of the current series featured Francie Mooney (Proinnsias O Maonaigh), Mairead's father and was a celebration of his achievements in the areas of teaching, music, drama and Gaelic football. We certainly enjoyed the great music on the show. Altan played and were joined by Francie and he led the band in some some tunes. Mairead and Triona Ni Dhomhnaill sang a song written by their father, Aodh, a friend of Francie's. Mairead's joined Gearoid and his son Ciaran for a brace of fiddle tunes. Paul Brady sang Francie's translation of The Lakes of Poncartrain, Ar Bhruach Loch Ponchartrain. Paul reminded us that it was Gleanntain Ghlas Gaoth Dobhair, a composition of Francie's that had helped launch his own career with The Johnstons. Paddy Glackin and Micheal O Domhnaill were there to play a set of three reels. We were remided of the long friendship between Paddy's own father, Tom Glackin, and Francie. Noel and Padraig Duggan, from Clannad, were joined by their friend Thomas Loeftke who plays the harp and they spoke about their early days on stage. Many of Francie's friends from the regular music session held in Tigh Hiudai Beags in Bunbeg came down to Galway for the recording of the show and they made sure there was no shortage of music until late into the night. Our thanks to Christy King and Carmel Ni Bhriain of Gaelmedia for the warmth of their welcome and their wonderful hospitality.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Lakes of Ponchartrain - Irish Words
From: An Pluiméir Ceolmhar
Date: 12 Jun 02 - 01:12 PM

Donegal mafia alert!

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Lakes of Ponchartrain - Irish Words
From: GUEST,Nerd (at work)
Date: 12 Jun 02 - 01:10 PM

Hooh! Lost of activity on this thread. here's what I know on this:

Firstly, Cold Blow is not Planxty's last album, just their third. This is important because it predates Paul Brady being in the band. I believe it's sung by Christy Moore there. Christy got it from Mike Waterson, who heard it and thought it had Irish connections. It is, obviously, an American song.

It's very likely that PB (which in my community means Peanut Butter, but which I guess means Paul Brady here) learned it at least in part from Christy, to sing with Planxty, since Planxty was rather like a pick-up band with rotating members for a while, and included both Christy and Paul.

The Irish words are a translation made by Proinnsias O Maonaigh, Francie Mooney, the Father of Altan's fiddler/frontwoman Mairead. PB has indeed sung them. I don't know if they've been published.

Nerd

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Lakes of Ponchartrain - Irish Words
From: Declan
Date: 12 Jun 02 - 12:58 PM

Making an awful prat of myself today. I think I'll go home soon ! Christy Moore recorded Pontchartain first with Planxty and he did learn it from Mike Waterson.

I now remember that Paul Brady always introduced the song as a song he learnt off a Planxty record (but from Christy rather than Andy).

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Lakes of Ponchartrain - Irish Words
From: GUEST,Bill Kennedy
Date: 12 Jun 02 - 12:54 PM

Planxty DID record 'Lakes of Ponchartrain', it's on their last album, Cold Blow & A Rainy Night, can't remember if it's in any way different lyrically from the PB version, from 'Welcome Here Kind Stranger'

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Lakes of Ponchartrain - Irish Words
From: An Pluiméir Ceolmhar
Date: 12 Jun 02 - 12:53 PM

Further afterthought (and now it's way past quittin' time!)which has been below conscious thought level and alligator-like has just broken the surface.

I was struck by the persistence of the alligators through the different versions which I glanced over in response to Declan's original enquiry. Could the song also have been lodged in the subconscious of the swimming coach referred to in the current SONG CHALLENGE!?

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Lakes of Ponchartrain - Irish Words
From: Declan
Date: 12 Jun 02 - 12:46 PM

greg,

Sorry for my intemperate opening to my last post. I got a bit carried away there.

Also it was Arthur McBride that Andy recorded with Planxty. I've never heard Andy singing the song except possibly as a backing vocalist to Paul Brady, who recorded it on the Welcome Here Kind Stranger album in 1978. I think my memory is right though when I say that Paul brought the song back from the states with him.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Lakes of Ponchartrain - Irish Words
From: IanC
Date: 12 Jun 02 - 12:45 PM

This older thread Lakes of Ponchartrain has quite a lot of useful information.

:-)
Ian

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Lakes of Ponchartrain - Irish Words
From: An Pluiméir Ceolmhar
Date: 12 Jun 02 - 12:43 PM

Decko,

The 1812 lead sounds quite plausible, given the use of the word "foreign". Maybe PB is fallible after all?

It didn't even occur to me that Jimmy C might be looking for words as gaeilge (pardon my html experimentation, I try to use it as a spurious justification for hitting mudcat from work!). I'd no idea that Andy Irvine (one of whose parents was/is Irish, I gather, so he comfortably qualifies to wear the green jersey) ever sang in the first official. What's the Coimisiún um Lugainmneacha official Irish translation of Pontchartrain? Droichead na gCartúsach?

And while I'm slaggin' PB (and by the way I do actually like his music), here's a stop press news item. I had agreed with Mooman that we should be ready to do the PB version of the rocks of bawn in time for the recent Brussels Mudcat gathering, but we never got round to doing it that weekend. So we tried it last night unrehearsed at our monthly pub session. I launched into it on my concert-pitch uilleann pipes, feeling altogether very Liam O'Flynn-like. Then Mooman joins in on the vocals and realises that he (unlike PB) is NOT your standard Irish tenor, and the song is just pitched three or four notes too high to sing in the same octave and about the same amount too low to sing the octave below. So it quickly turned into an instrumental solo. Suppose I'll just have to mortgage the wife, order a Bflat set from Geoff Woof and wait twelve or thirteen years before we try it again.

html fixed by mudelf

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Lakes of Ponchartrain - Irish Words
From: GUEST,Bill Kennedy
Date: 12 Jun 02 - 12:40 PM

don't know of any Irish words, though there is a version, #1 in DT, that is more common in Ireland than Paul Brady's version. Google search brings up dozens of websites with lyrics, some of which differ slightly or greatly with DT's 4 versions. Maybe time for a study thread on this song. I'd say, agreeing with many, that the song dates from after the Civil War, and don't know of any evidence at all, in the song or otherwise, that it involves an Irishman (though we get around, don't we!). It is most probably an older Creole song.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Lakes of Ponchartrain - Irish Words
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Jun 02 - 12:25 PM

Every song ever written, if ever performed by an Irish artist becomes Irish!

Cunning old Celts!

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Lakes of Ponchartrain - Irish Words
From: Declan
Date: 12 Jun 02 - 12:21 PM

greg,

Do you really find it necessary to react like that every time someone puts the word Irish into a thread name ?

The version that Jimmy C was looking for is in the Irish language, which as far as I know is neither Scotish nor English.

Andy recorded the song with Planxty before Paul Brady did. Paul found his version in the US, which is obviously where the song was written. From both the language in the song and the tune, I'd say the author was Irish, but that is neither here nor there.

I'm not sure if the song was set around the American Civil war although "foreign money" could be a clue to this as the confederacy issued their own currency, which would have been useless after the war was over. Might also date back to the time of the battle of New Orleans (about 1812 if my memory serves me right)- Louisiana being a French settlement may have had a different currency in those days ?

I think it was actually Paul Brady who recorded it on Eist aris. I'll check out the CD this evening and will post the words some time soon.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Lakes of Ponchartrain - Irish Words
From: Francy
Date: 12 Jun 02 - 12:06 PM

Whereever it came from, it's a wonderful song and thanks for those lyrics.... I really love to sing this song...Another song with similar melody and lyric line is the Lily Of The West..........Frank Of Toledo

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Lakes of Ponchartrain - Irish Words
From: An Pluiméir Ceolmhar
Date: 12 Jun 02 - 12:01 PM

Here's the Brady version. (I needed to refresh my blue clicky skills).

Funny, I thought the song had some association with the American Civil War (or whatever we're supposed to call it in politically correct terms), but I don't see any obvious internal evidence of this. Am I imperfectly remembering a rambling intro by PB? When I see the words written down it looks more like a plea for the Euro, disguised by geographical transposition.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Lakes of Ponchartrain - Irish Words
From: greg stephens
Date: 12 Jun 02 - 11:53 AM

IMHO the Best Song in the World. Bet Paul Brady got it from Andy Irvine though (speaking from memory, perhaps I ought to check dates on discograpies before opening my big mouth).

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Lakes of Ponchartrain - Irish Words
From: An Pluiméir Ceolmhar
Date: 12 Jun 02 - 11:49 AM

Is

this any use? I got it on a google search, but don't know if it's the version you're after.

The "definitive" rendering by dint of superstardom is Paul Brady's, so you might try putting his name into a search there and checking out webfanzines devoted to him.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Lakes of Ponchartrain - Irish Words
From: greg stephens
Date: 12 Jun 02 - 11:46 AM

sorry, cant do blue clickies,but I'm sure someone will in a minute so I wont type them out. And is Mudcat is the one place in the worldwhere everyone is allowed to be pedantic, Ithink I should point out that as far as I know Andy Irvine is Scottish and got the song of the Watersons who are English...though maybe it was Irish before that?

Subject: Lakes of Ponchartrain - Irish Words
From: Jimmy C
Date: 12 Jun 02 - 11:35 AM

I need the words to this song. It was recorded on a CD " Eist Aris". by Andy Irvine. Any help would be appreciated.

Thanks