BS: Who are the Terrorists? Part 114

Subject: Who are the Terrorists? Part 114
From: GUEST,Warren Webber
Date: 23 Jun 02 - 11:10 AM

Part 113 is up to 110 posts. Time for part 114.

In part 113, 32/110 or more than 29%, are from one person: CarolC.

Warren Webber in Milwaukee

Subject: RE: Who are the Terrorists? Part 114
From: CarolC
Date: 23 Jun 02 - 11:33 AM

Good morning Warren. How are you today? Are we going to have an attack campaign on CarolC now? I don't think you're doing Israel any favors with this sort of thing. Kind of makes them look bad by association, if you know what I mean. At least if you were speaking for me, I think I would probably ask you to stop. But it's up to you.

Subject: RE: Who are the Terrorists? Part 114
From: katlaughing
Date: 23 Jun 02 - 11:35 AM

Why don't you both stop! Go do something musical!

Subject: RE: Who are the Terrorists? Part 114
From: CarolC
Date: 23 Jun 02 - 11:37 AM

katlaughing, you're not helping.

Subject: RE: Who are the Terrorists? Part 114
From: CarolC
Date: 23 Jun 02 - 11:39 AM

And I'll make a deal with you, kat. I won't tell you what to do, and you don't tell me what to do. Deal?

Subject: RE: Who are the Terrorists? Part 114
From: GUEST,Warren Webber
Date: 23 Jun 02 - 11:49 AM

In Part 112, CarolC was responsible for 26/68 posts or almost 37%.

So far in Part 114, CarolC has made 50% of the posts.

BTW CarolC, I don't know why you think my statistical observations have anything to do with "doing any favors for Israel."

I have not made any personal attacks on you. I have merely pointed out easily verifiable Mudcat statistics.

Subject: RE: Who are the Terrorists? Part 114
From: CarolC
Date: 23 Jun 02 - 11:53 AM

Ok, Warren. If you say so.

Subject: RE: Who are the Terrorists? Part 114
From: GUEST,Barbara
Date: 23 Jun 02 - 01:21 PM

The often used "fact", that the Jews simply came and took the land away from the poor Palestinians is a red herring. It is simply not true.

There has always been a significant presence of Jews in the Middle East. Including, and especially around Jerusalem. And until the Jews decided to formally re-settle Israel, there were very few Arabs in that part of the Middle East, other than in Jerusalem. But; as Jews developed the land, Arabs immigrated to this area in large numbers. Finally there was work.

Another facetious "fact", is one of borders. Until the Europeans and Americans "imposed" borders in the Middle East, just after the Second World War; there were none. Present-day Middle Eastern countries with definable borders such as: Jordan, Syria, Lebanon, Saudi Arabia and others, were created.

And before the Europeans and Americans decided to carve up the Middle East, these were regions mostly ruled by Sheiks, war lords and the such.

As a matter of "fact", the original King of Jordan, King Abdullah, was an Arabian who was handed Trans Jordan by the British for his past service to the Crown. In "fact", the vast majority of the people living within Jordan (70%) are Palestinian, while the ruling minority are Hashemite.

So why don't we hear the Palestinians demanding Jordan as their state? Another "fact": they did. In September of 1970, Yasser Arafat and his PLO attempted to overthrow the Jordanian government. And for his troubles, Arafat was exiled from Jordan along with tens of thousands of other Palestinians. At least the ones which were not massacred by the Jordanians.

As a result of the attempted coup by Arafat, Syria became involved as an opportunist. The final body count after all the fighting was done, included: 5,000 Jordanians, 2,000 PLO and 3,000 Syrians. In all, more than 10,000 people lost their lives due to Yasser Arafat.

And from Jordan, Arafat and his Syrian buddies did the same thing to the Lebanese. But this time, with far more dire consequences. It took Israeli troops to get them out, finally driving Arafat into exile away from the Middle East. The Israelis would have done him in at that point. But like always, the world community saved his sorry ass.

This is a "fact" Arafat and the rest of the world seem to prefer to forget. This failed coup led to the formation of one of the most vicious terrorist groups ever. Black September; responsible for multiple airplane highjackings, assassinations, and the 1972 Munich Olympic slaughter of Israeli athletes.

The "Balfour Declaration" also guaranteed Jews, through the British Parliament in 1917, a State with recognizable borders. Here is the letter sent to Lord Rothschild from Lord Balfour confirming this:

Foreign Office November 2nd, 1917 Dear Lord Rothschild,

I have much pleasure in conveying to you, on behalf of His Majesty's Government, the following declaration of sympathy with Jewish Zionist aspirations which has been submitted to, and approved by, the Cabinet.

His Majesty's Government view with favour the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people, and will use their best endeavours to facilitate the achievement of this object, it being clearly understood that nothing shall be done which may prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine, or the rights and political status enjoyed by Jews in any other country."

I should be grateful if you would bring this declaration to the knowledge of the Zionist Federation.

Yours sincerely,

Arthur James Balfour

It must be noted as a matter of history, that not only did the British not fulfill their promise, they in fact did whatever they could to renege. And more than that, they put in place all form of roadblocks to the realization of the Zionist dream.

From 1901, more than a century past, the JNF (Jewish National Fund) purchased virtually all the land that is currently pre 1967 Israel. At that time, the land was useless rock, dust and weeds. Once developed however, the land became quite valuable.

With this new reality, some of the Arabs who sold, were infuriated and felt cheated. But not all Arabs sold. And as a result, there are more than 1 million Israeli Arabs who prosper with the same rights enjoyed by Israeli Jews.

For those who chose to sell. Tough luck. For those who deserted their land at the behest of the Arab League in 1948, to languish in Arab refugee camps of their own making. Tough luck.

Imagine selling a dilapidated home to your neighbor, believing that its only value is in firewood; when all of a sudden, your neighbor transforms it into a magnificent property by investing an enormous amount of time, effort and money. How would you feel? Well that's how the Arabs feel. But unlike you, they want it back.

For those who suggest that the Jews do not belong in Israel, specifically in Jerusalem and the West Bank, try this on for size as a Christian.

If that argument is right, then Christ was a fraud, the bible is a fantasy and Christianity is a hoax.

Christ lived in and around the city of Jerusalem, some 600 years before the advent of Islam. However; Christ was NOT a Christian, since Christianity followed in his footsteps. Christ was a Jew, and not just any Jew. He was a practicing Rabbi.

As a matter of "fact", Leonardo Da Vinci's painting of the Last Supper, was a depiction of Christ and his Apostles at a Passover Seder, just before Judas' treachery did him in. This was about 2,000 years ago.

Prior to Christ; King Herod constructed the Second Temple upon which the Islamic Dome Of The Rock, and the Al Aqsa Mosque were built more than 600 and 700 years later; respectfully. This is at least 600 years AFTER the Romans destroyed the Second Temple in 70 AD.

Prior to King Herod's Second Temple; the First Temple was built by King Solomon, son of King David in 1000 BC. That is 3,000 years ago. And prior to that, King David, the Jews' first King, made his capital in Hebron, which is part of the West Bank, and will be part of the "eventual" Palestinian State.

Therefore; the argument that Jews have no historical right to the "Holy Land" is both false and specious. Jews have been in the Middle East, specifically in and around Jerusalem far longer than the Christians and the Moslems combined. Three times longer.

As another matter of fact, in keeping with the concept that the group who has the longest continuos history in the land is the legitimate occupant, at least according to the UN when this comparison is convenient, the Moslems come in third after the Christians, and well after the Jews.

But that is not what this argument is all about. As an Atheist, albeit a Jewish Atheist, I find the significance of this history fascinating, not on a religious basis, but more-so on a basis which reflects the movement of world history. What happened in Israel (Middle East) during and before this period, has had an enormous impact on how we live our lives today, thousands of miles away in the 21st century.

Back to reality, and away from religious significance. The Jews were there for almost 6,000 years. They have a right to be there now. The Palestinians have been there for about 50 years; solely as a result of European and American tampering.

I kid you not. The Palestinians, are more or less a creation of the politically correct. In essence, Palestinians are Arabs, the same as the Jordanians, Syrians and Lebanese. But these Arabs want to convince the world that their national credibility exists in history. But in reality, this "history" is nothing more than smoke and mirrors.

There never was a country of Palestine, nor a Palestinian people. At least not before Europe and the USA created one.

After Roman Emperor Titus Flavius Sabinus Vespasianus destroyed the Second Temple in 70 AD, and had his Roman Legion crush the Jewish Zealots at Masada, he named the REGION Philistine, in honor of the Jew's most hated enemy, the Philistines. Remember little David and the giant Goliath? This is the REGION which the world has condensed into the territory we presently refer to as Palestine.

Ask yourself this question. Who was the last king, emperor, president, prime minister, governor; or any leader of PALESTINE before Yasser Arafat? Biblical or current? And if you can not answer; then how can there be Palestinians, and how can Palestine claim to have been stolen by the Jews?

Israel is an unbelievably successful Western Style Democracy that pisses off all the failed tyrannies in the Middle East. The success of the Israelis also seems to bother anti-Semitic Europe as well. It's not as if European anti-Semitism started with Adolf Hitler and died in his bunker.

The fact that so many European countries, including the USA, are so dependent for their energy and enormous wealth earned from the vast amounts of oil in the Middle East, is by and large the reason the world shows so much sympathy to an entire people they would otherwise never care less about.

After-all, the Middle East is the antithesis to everything the West has strived to become, in terms of multi-culturalism, modernity and democracy; where the rights of the individual are considered to be sacrosanct; especially in the USA.

Ehud Barak, Israel's Prime Minister prior to Ariel Sharon, offered Arafat the deal of a lifetime in terms of settling the debate over Palestine, and not only did Arafat turn it down, he never even attempted to make a counter offer. Arafat and the Palestinians, including the rest of the Arab "street", do not want a deal with Israel. They just don't want Israel.

As far as I am concerned, Israel should continue to build its massive security wall, keep the Palestinians out of Israel proper, and leave the Palestinian problem for the Arabs to work out. And if the Palestinians still want to continue murdering Jews, then let the Jews respond with all due prejudice.

And if the Palestinian Arabs finally decide to join the civilized and democratized 21st century, they will find no better friend and ally than Israel. The choice is; and has always been theirs.

Subject: RE: Who are the Terrorists? Part 114
From: GUEST,kiki
Date: 23 Jun 02 - 01:39 PM

Alone Among My Peers at My Yeshiva University High School Reunion
by Ronald Bleier

The following article, my political autobiography, explaining how I changed from a Zionist to an anti-Zionist, was printed (with minor changes) in the Nov. '92 edition of The Washington Report on Middle East Affairs under their "Seeing the Light" column.

In the spring of 1990 I was one of some forty men and a handful of spouses who attended the 30th reunion of the 75-man graduation class of Yeshiva University High School of Brooklyn.

---

Lengthy copy-paste article deleted. Click to find this article.
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: Who are the Terrorists? Part 114
From: GUEST,Phoebe
Date: 23 Jun 02 - 02:19 PM

Uri Avnery

15.9.01

THE DAY BARAK'S BUBBLE BURST

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Lengthy copy-paste article deleted. Click to find this article
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: Who are the Terrorists? Part 114
From: katlaughing
Date: 23 Jun 02 - 03:15 PM

Neither one of you are helping the Mudcat, either, Carol.

Subject: RE: Who are the Terrorists? Part 114
From: CarolC
Date: 23 Jun 02 - 03:51 PM

katlaughing, I don't know if you've been paying attention or not, but I'm not the one who is instigating this stuff. What I am doing is trying to get clear of it.

And I find this coming from you to be rather ironic to say the least...

Go do something musical!

Subject: RE: Who are the Terrorists? Part 114
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Jun 02 - 04:20 PM

Carol,
I'll gladly pay your air fare to Gaza or the West Bank, if it gets you the hell off of this forum. I'll even provide the final videographer for your taped deposition, and provide coordinates to a nice crowded area of civilians where you can detonate yourself and take a few Israelis with you. (Sounds like the type of contribution you'd like to make if only you could. Let me help you.)

You are a disgrace as an American and a human being. You naivete is laughable if only it weren't so pathetic. You disgust me and many other members of this forum.

Subject: RE: Who are the Terrorists? Part 114
From: CarolC
Date: 23 Jun 02 - 04:33 PM

I'm sorry you feel that way GUEST. I don't know why you and so many other people want to make this about me though. Are you so afraid of dialogue and of having your position challenged that you need to silence and/or demonize everyone who disagrees with you?

That kind of thing suggests to me a profound fear of the truth. People who aren't trying to hide from something can handle disagreement.

You would probably say that dissent costs the lives of Israelis. And I would answer that it is a lack of dissent that is costing Israeli lives, and Palestinians lives as well.

But ultimately, we all will have to take responsibility for the decisions we make. I'm prepared to take responsibility for mine.

Subject: RE: BS: Who are the Terrorists? Part 114
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Jun 02 - 04:56 PM

No it is people like you and your revisionist theories of lies masquerading as truth, that are in denial. I guess 6 million wasn't enough for you and that defending ones sovereign territory consititutes terrorism. You've got it all so ass backwards it boggles the mind. You'd make an excellent recruite for Al Quada. You obviously have a very bendable, impressionable and corruptable mind.

I guess when the next attack happens on our soil, you'll consider the FBI, CIA, Homeland Security, Police and Firefighters' collective responses - terrorists as well - by your definitions.

Subject: RE: BS: Who are the Terrorists? Part 114
From: CarolC
Date: 23 Jun 02 - 05:18 PM

Why so much hate, GUEST? What do you hope to accomplish with that? Who and what do you think you are serving with that? Clearly you don't know or understand anything about me if you would project those kinds of motives onto me. I think you are just using me as a mirror of yourself. You are projecting your own hate onto me and seeing it reflected back to you. But it's not my hate you're seeing. It is your own.

You won't be able to move forward as long as you are projecting your stuff onto other people. You can't fight your demons by trying to make me into one of them. These are not my demons. They are yours.

And chasing me off of an internet forum, or inciting hatred against me, or even making me feel bad, will not free you of your demons. Because they live within you. You can't run away from them, and you can't assign them to someone else. They are yours. You have to do the work of letting them go yourself.

Subject: RE: BS: Who are the Terrorists? Part 114
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Jun 02 - 05:38 PM

Here Carol. Your friends are calling you. Run along now.

Subject: RE: BS: Who are the Terrorists? Part 114
From: CarolC
Date: 23 Jun 02 - 05:44 PM

I don't know what would make you think I support al Qaeda. I thought we were discussing Israelis and Palestinians.

You don't hurt me with your hate, GUEST. You only hurt yourself.

Subject: RE: BS: Who are the Terrorists? Part 114
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 23 Jun 02 - 07:27 PM

No point in arguing with a shadow. No point in even reading what a shadow writes on a wall.

Subject: RE: BS: Who are the Terrorists? Part 114
From: CarolC
Date: 23 Jun 02 - 07:35 PM

I don't know McGrath. I still hold to the idea that we are all human beings. Even the GUESTS. That's how I choose to treat them, anyway.

Subject: RE: BS: Who are the Terrorists? Part 114
From: robomatic
Date: 23 Jun 02 - 09:49 PM

Of the three long posts, the one by Barbara is the only one that I think asserts real facts. In fact, she is taking three times as much space to make pretty much the same assertions I made in part 113 (of blessed memory)

The piece by Bleier, if it is legitimate, is firstly a long polemic introduced by someone else, so it is kind of unfair. I think if guest kiki has a point to make he/she should use their own words and provide a link. Of the piece itself it sounds like Bleier (again, assuming this is a real zionist who 'saw the light') is a person incapable of accepting the broad spectrum of human behavior. His apprach seems to be that the zionist cause is inscribed in holiness or it is nothing but lies. I think the article says more about the author's character than the actual events, which are misrepresented and taken out of context.

As for the third long post, a rendition of how reasonable Arafat has been over the years, it is also an imported polemic, basically an unfavorable review of someone else's work. It's a book review of a book I haven't read. I'd rather the guest had made his or her own points.

In general, people, speak for yourselves, treat the rest of the list with respect, make a link to your references, then stand clear!

I love you all, just not equally

Robo

Subject: RE: BS: Who are the Terrorists? Part 114
From: Bobert
Date: 23 Jun 02 - 11:06 PM

Hang in there, CarolC. I'd join in the fray but you're doing just fine.

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Who are the Terrorists? Part 114
From: CarolC
Date: 23 Jun 02 - 11:12 PM

You think, Bobert? I'm getting kind of frazzled. I think maybe I'll take a vote.

All in favor of me posting links that show the other side of robomatic's arguments, indicate your preference. If enough of the right people want me to, I will. But I reserve the right to say no if I think it will make me the target of more hate.

Subject: RE: BS: Who are the Terrorists? Part 114
From: GUEST,Barbara
Date: 24 Jun 02 - 09:35 AM

All in favor of me posting links that show the other side of robomatic's arguments, indicate your preference. If enough of the right people want me to, I will.

Calling for a vote and then basing your response on the votes of only the undefined right people sure sounds like the very model of Arafatian democracy.

Subject: RE: BS: Who are the Terrorists? Part 114
From: CarolC
Date: 24 Jun 02 - 11:54 AM

I get the impression that the people who are the most traumatized by the information I've been posting are Jewish. I would prefer not to post my rebuttal to robomatic's arguments unless I get a strong response from Jewish people saying that they want me to.

Just what, exactly, are you insinuating, anyway, Barbara?

Subject: RE: BS: Who are the Terrorists? Part 114
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Jun 02 - 12:15 PM

So now it's the Jews who are the "right people."

It's not bad enough that they control the big media, now the Jews will control what CarolC posts. How PC of you.

Subject: RE: BS: Who are the Terrorists? Part 114
From: CarolC
Date: 24 Jun 02 - 12:20 PM

Well, GUEST, I dont' enjoy being the target of so many people's hate.

However. Try as you might, you can't make me into something I'm not. Whatever demonic idea you have in your twisted mind about who I am will never bear any resemblance to who I actually am. And there's not a thing you can do to change that. So get over it.

Subject: RE: BS: Who are the Terrorists? Part 114
From: Bobert
Date: 24 Jun 02 - 01:56 PM

Sorry, CarolC, but it sounds like you might have a couple of mean spirited attorney-like thinkers messin' with ya'. They're not interested in the truth but picking apart your words in an attempt to tarnish you. Normal defense mechanisim for folks on the opposite side. Rather than deal in ideas painted a wide brush, they only think in tiny brush details. Don't let them get to you. It's obvious that some have allready created their Hell right here in their tiny little lives. Sad? Sure. But not your problem. Theirs.

But I will say that until we get a lot more folks seeing a vision painted with a larger brush, then yet-but detailers will keep man blowing up each other until one day someone messes up and blows up this little experiement that God has going here on earth. Yeah, they'll pull out that6 dreamer thing. "Ol' Bobert's just a dreamer". Haha. Or, "Ol' hillbilly don't know nuttin about the real world." Haha. Well, that may be true and it may not be. Afterall, most every comfort they enjoy today started off as a dream or vision.

So hang in there and don't let the little thinker's bother you. Hey, they think they are big thinker's, even if we know differently. Some folks are just plain mean-spirited. Right?

Peace

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Who are the Terrorists? Part 114
From: CarolC
Date: 24 Jun 02 - 02:05 PM

Thanks Bobert. But as long as people try to make the issue be about me instead of about information, I don't think much will be served by posting information that I figure will be very difficult for some people to absorb.

This is how I figure it. The information is there. Eventually it will become common knowlege. It's only a matter of time. The only question I see is how many Jews, Arabs, and Palestinians will have to get killed before people get real about it.

Subject: RE: BS: Who are the Terrorists? Part 114
From: robomatic
Date: 24 Jun 02 - 09:24 PM

Carol C:

You will either post your links and let people comment on them or not post your links and continue the existing shall I or shall I not post the links. This issue seems to be defining the 'debate' and eating up a lot of your posts. I don't particularly want you to be the topic, I'd rather wish to know what information you regard as your fountain of opinion.

robo

Subject: RE: BS: Who are the Terrorists? Part 114
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 24 Jun 02 - 09:42 PM

Personal attacks on people holding positions which we do not agree with are a drag, but there's no way of stopping them; some people seem to enjoy doing that, normally anonymously. Presumably that's part of the fun.

Does anybody think they are doing anything at all to encourage people to come down on their side in an argument? My feeling is that it's entirelyt the other way - if you are unsure about some issue, anonymous flames tend to make you sway towards the side of the person under attack.

But I imagine the idea is actually to try to bully people into shutting up.

Subject: RE: BS: Who are the Terrorists? Part 114
From: CarolC
Date: 24 Jun 02 - 10:05 PM

Well, since I'm the one who is being targeted for personal attacks by not only anonymous guests, but named members as well, I think I get to say under what conditions I'm going to post stuff that I know will make me the target of even worse attacks than before. I'm not enjoying it very much, especially when members like katlaughing suggest I'm hurting the Mudcat by posting. So unless I get enough people requesting the information to make me feel less exposed, I'm not posting it.

Subject: RE: BS: Who are the Terrorists? Part 114
From: GUEST,Warren Webber
Date: 24 Jun 02 - 10:53 PM

President Bush has now made it clear that the Palestinian terrorists, and Arafat himself, are the enemies of a peaceful solution and the obstacles to the establishment of a Palestinian state.

The president made it clear that it is up to the Palestinians to stop the terrorism and to democratically elect a non-terrorist government.

Of course, the goal of terrorist organizations like Hamas is to actually prolong the occupation for as many decades as it takes to establish a fundamentalist Muslim state. They send their suicide bombers in with the intent of drawing in the Israelis.

Subject: RE: BS: Who are the Terrorists? Part 114
From: Lepus Rex
Date: 24 Jun 02 - 11:02 PM

Well, if Bush says so... I guess it must have been wrong of me to blame the racist/zionist/genocidal policies of the Israeli govt. for the violence in Palestine today! Dang, thanks, Bush, for making it all so clear! And thank you, Warren, just for being you! :D

---Lepus Rex

Subject: RE: BS: Who are the Terrorists? Part 114
From: Bobert
Date: 24 Jun 02 - 11:07 PM

Ain't about sides. Ain't about yeah... buts. Ain't about what the world is being fed by the information managers. It's about reality. It's about failed policies that keep folks ay each other's throats. Those who are in power are failing mankind miserably. And for what? Profits and kickbacks at the expense of humanity!!! That's what. If this is all they have to offer, then it's time for a new world order....

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Who are the Terrorists? Part 114
From: GUEST,Warren Webber
Date: 24 Jun 02 - 11:11 PM

"I couldn't hate America any more."

-Lepus Rex, January 29, 2002

You must be a great comfort to the Osama Bin Ladens of this world.

Subject: RE: BS: Who are the Terrorists? Part 114
From: Lepus Rex
Date: 24 Jun 02 - 11:15 PM

I...I don't know what to say, Warreen. I'm speechless. No one has EVER attacked me with that before. I...I...give up. Seriously. You've beaten me into submission, you cruel, cruel man! Please, no more! Mercy!

Oh, and drink me. ;)

---Lepus Rex

Subject: RE: BS: Who are the Terrorists? Part 114
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Jun 02 - 11:29 PM

If you were as ugly as Lepus Rex, you'd hate America too.

Subject: RE: BS: Who are the Terrorists? Part 114
From: Lepus Rex
Date: 24 Jun 02 - 11:31 PM

Fool. That link doesn't even work. Try clicking here, and STOP making me cry, dammit!

---Lepus Rex

Subject: RE: BS: Who are the Terrorists? Part 114
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Jun 02 - 01:42 AM

Ahad Ha'Am

Subject: RE: BS: Who are the Terrorists? Part 114
From: GUEST,GWB
Date: 25 Jun 02 - 09:43 AM

For too long, the citizens of the Middle East have lived in the midst of death and fear. The hatred of a few holds the hopes of many hostage. The forces of extremism and terror are attempting to kill progress and peace by killing the innocent. And this casts a dark shadow over an entire region.

---

Lengthy copy-paste article deleted. Click here to find it.
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: BS: Who are the Terrorists? Part 114
From: GUEST,Barbara
Date: 25 Jun 02 - 09:48 AM

At a recent seminar on Islam at the University of Toronto, a woman shrouded in black spoke with a Canadian accent through the most all-encompassing yashmak I have ever seen, the opening for her eyes as narrow as a mail slot. The fact that she looked like a visitor from an ancient desert kingdom gave extra emphasis to her cool acceptance of random Palestinian killing. She introduced her views with the correct academic reference. "I'm coming from a Chomskyan perspective here," she announced, peeking out. She meant Noam Chomsky, the professor who finds an excuse for any atrocity against Israel.

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-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: BS: Who are the Terrorists? Part 114
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 25 Jun 02 - 01:01 PM

I read on the CBC website today that G8 Leaders want Bush to put pressure on both sides in this conflict. But I'm sure that Bush is right, in championing democracy while telling an elected leader to step down. He is also right in choosing sides, for that is certianly the way to mediate a compromise.

While we're at it, we should also rewrite the dictionary so that we all pronounce nuclear like him.

Subject: RE: BS: Who are the Terrorists? Part 114
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Jun 02 - 02:11 PM

hmmmm. Some of the champions of Israel on this thread sound like white supremacists and skinheads. Only in this case I guess they would be Jewish supremacists. Not really much difference, though, when you think about it.

Subject: RE: BS: Who are the Terrorists? Part 114
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Jun 02 - 03:20 PM

Sharon is the right man for the job
Gilad Atzmon

-- Gilad Atzmon
http://www.gilad.co.uk

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Lengthy copy-paste article deleted. Click to see this article.
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: BS: Who are the Terrorists? Part 114
From: Mike Regenstreif
Date: 25 Jun 02 - 03:46 PM

They turned the Jenin camp into a 'Palestinian Ground Zero'. Occupied houses were destroyed over their habitants. Sharon had committed a crime comparable to the Quibya massacre of 50 years earlier. Although the similarities are very obvious, there are slight differences that should be identified. In Quibya Sharon was a platoon commander, in Jenin he had become an elected prime minister and had committed his crime in the name of all Israeli people. As expected, as soon as international criticism was heard, Sharon defined the current battle as the 'existential war of the all Jewish nation'. According to Sharon, then, the massacre in Jenin was done not only in the name of the Israelis but in the name of all Jewish people.

Not a particularly good work of fiction. Jenin? The massacre that even the Palestinian Authority now admits never took place.

Subject: RE: BS: Who are the Terrorists? Part 114
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Jun 02 - 04:11 PM

Interesting point, Mike. I wonder what kinds of threats the governments of Israel and the US had to use on the Palestinian Authority to get them to agree to that one, considering how many eye witnesses there were from the international community who say otherwise.

Subject: RE: BS: Who are the Terrorists? Part 114
From: DougR
Date: 25 Jun 02 - 06:24 PM

I don't address replies to unidentified GUESTS, Mike, but were I to, I would ask Guest to inform us exactly how many Palenstinian lives were killed by the Israelis at Jenin, and while he/she was about it, provide proof to back up the figures.

Jack the Sailor, I'm sure you have a much better idea for settling the Israeli Palestinian problem than the one proposed by President Bush. Share your proposed solution with us, please.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Who are the Terrorists? Part 114
From: Donuel
Date: 25 Jun 02 - 07:11 PM

Thank you Barbara for your extensive posts.
Last time I checked in here CarolC was everyones darling and tongue in cheek nominee for President.
The current detractors have little to say except a dose of hatred and a desire to silence others. That these control freaks come out of the woodwork now is indicative of a fascist stench upon our homeland.

Subject: RE: BS: Who are the Terrorists? Part 114
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 25 Jun 02 - 07:28 PM

The Qibya massacre carried out by Sharon did take place. It was an appalling terrorist act against civilians of all ages. Unlike the Sabra and Shatilla massacres even, where the killings were done by third parties, Sharon was in direct command of the killers at Qibya. He claimed that when he killed 70 civilians hiding from his troops in the buildings he blew up, he didn't know they were there.

I think that prospects for peace would be far better if people on both sides refused to vote for people who have been involved in terrorism. But people have a nasty way of voting for the people they choose, and sometimes their choice isn't very pleasant, and you have to deal with them. Even Sharon, even Arafat.

I understand why people think that long articles and speeches are sometimes relevant. But if you put a short extract or summary with a link to a place where the whole thing can be read far more easily than on a Mudcat thread, it is probably a far better way of encouraging people to read the material, and it is what we have been repeatedly asked to do by the people who maintain the Mudcat. The best way to ensure that a politician gets re-elected is for an outside government to demand that they are thrown out. Maybe that's the idea.

Subject: RE: BS: Who are the Terrorists? Part 114
From: robomatic
Date: 25 Jun 02 - 07:42 PM

Gilad Atzmon appears to be an Israeli who is exercising his dissident views. That is his right in the democratic country of Israel. It doesn't mean that his conclusions are right. I'd like to see some shades of opinion come out of other countries in the Middle East that dare to disagree with their main governments.

Subject: RE: BS: Who are the Terrorists? Part 114
From: GUEST, Just Passing Through
Date: 25 Jun 02 - 08:13 PM

Hey, Donuel, hows it goin? It must be what..6 months?

Been wondering where you were, with all this discussion going on! Hows things under the bridge?

Subject: RE: BS: Who are the Terrorists? Part 114
From: Donuel
Date: 25 Jun 02 - 08:25 PM

You mean inside the beltway.
Things have been amazing
Which is a surefire indication something is about to go wrong. Such as http://www.angelfire.com/md2/customviolins/wtcx.html

Subject: RE: BS: Who are the Terrorists? Part 114
From: GUEST, Just Passing Through
Date: 25 Jun 02 - 08:57 PM

Well... if there was one sure-fire way to fuck up your own business, thats it, Donuel. You think you'll ever sell another instrument, after posting that bit of insensitive crap....

Get some treatment, huh? PLEASE?

Subject: RE: BS: Who are the Terrorists? Part 114
From: DougR
Date: 25 Jun 02 - 10:04 PM

Er, ah ...has this thread been kidsnatched, or what?

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Who are the Terrorists? Part 114
From: Bobert
Date: 25 Jun 02 - 10:14 PM

Same tune, different day. Too many, "yeah, but..." folks. There is no justification for blowing other folks up over differences of opinion.

The US holds the power to end this thing, but won't. It's profitable for those folks who are dictating policy from their corporate offices. After all, they bought their boy and they're gonna get their money's worth out of him.

Yeah, whatever happened to the Saudi Proposal? Well, got vetoed by the Masters of War, that's what happened to it.

We need a change...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Who are the Terrorists? Part 114
From: GUEST
Date: 26 Jun 02 - 12:31 AM

It looks like the Israeli government used an "incentive" rather than a threat to coerce the Palestinian Authority to go along with their denial of a massacre in Jenin.

"At this writing, the Israeli press is reporting that Prime Minister Ariel Sharon agreed to a deal releasing Palestinian leader Yasir Arafat from his monthslong siege in Ramallah only after US President George W. Bush promised to stand by Israel during the Jenin accounting. As a permanent member of the UN Security Council, which unanimously dispatched the fact-finding mission, the United States has considerable power to influence its mandate."

Investigating Jenin by Charmaine Seitz

Subject: RE: BS: Who are the Terrorists? Part 114
From: DougR
Date: 26 Jun 02 - 12:31 AM

Bobert: Most of the Arab states have lauded the president's plan.

What's your plan?

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Who are the Terrorists? Part 114
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 26 Jun 02 - 12:40 AM

DougR,

Don't be an such and ass. If Bush won't listen to the leaders of allied governments, what makes you think he'll listen to a few opinionated folkies?

Bush doesn't have a plan, he's simply being a bully. You can't mediate by choosing sides. Bush id simply showing how short sighted and stupid he can be.

Subject: RE: BS: Who are the Terrorists? Part 114
From: DougR
Date: 26 Jun 02 - 12:54 AM

Mebbe so, Jack the Sailor, but the question I posed is: what is your plan?

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Who are the Terrorists? Part 114
From: GUEST
Date: 26 Jun 02 - 01:19 AM

My plan would be to dismantle the aparthied Jewish State of Israel, and establish in its place a country where Jews, and Palestinian Arabs and Christians can live together in peace and equality.

Here you go Doug -

"In Israel, Jenin is perceived mainly as a public relations problem (called in Hebrew 'hasbara' -explaining). It appears even that the army and the government believe that Israel is winning the propaganda battle. After all, all relevant principles of this battle have been strictly adhered to"

JENIN - THE PROPAGANDA WAR

"Abstract: Aerial photographs were posted on the Israel Defenses Forces web site as evidence that the destruction in the Jenin refugee camp was on a small scale, incompatible with claims that there was a massacre. However, measurement of the area of destruction shown in the same photographs, compared with the population density of the camp, actually lends credibility to claims by Palestinians (and many international observers) that hundreds of people were killed."

What Happened in the Jenin Refugee Camp?

I'll have some more for you later.

Subject: RE: BS: Who are the Terrorists? Part 114
From: GUEST
Date: 26 Jun 02 - 01:54 AM

Here's a good one.

"There is full agreement between all those who were in the Jenin refugee camp on only one thing. A week after the end of the fighting, foreign journalists and IDF soldiers, UN representatives and hired hacks in the Israeli media, members of the welfare organizations and government propagandists all report that a terrible stench of decomposing bodies lingers everywhere."

Something Stinks

Subject: RE: BS: Who are the Terrorists? Part 114
From: GUEST
Date: 26 Jun 02 - 04:49 AM

446 Israeli officers announce refusal to serve in occupied territories
Ha'aretz.

We, reserve combat officers and soldiers of the Israel Defense Forces, who were raised upon the principles of Zionism, sacrifice and giving to the people of Israel and to the State of Israel, who have always served in the front lines, and who were the first to carry out any mission, light or heavy, in order to protect the State of Israel and strengthen it.

We, combat officers and soldiers who have served the State of Israel for long weeks every year, in spite of the dear cost to our personal lives, have been on reserve duty all over the Occupied Territories, and were issued commands and directives that had nothing to do with the security of our country, and that had the sole purpose of perpetuating our control over the Palestinian people. We, whose eyes have seen the bloody toll this Occupation exacts from both sides.

We, who sensed how the commands issued to us in the Territories, destroy all the values we had absorbed while growing up in this country.

We, who understand now that the price of Occupation is the loss of IDF's human character and the corruption of the entire Israeli society.

We, who know that the Territories are not Israel, and that all settlements are bound to be evacuated in the end.

We hereby declare that we shall not continue to fight this War of the Settlements.

We shall not continue to fight beyond the 1967 borders in order to dominate, expel, starve and humiliate an entire people.

We hereby declare that we shall continue serving in the Israel Defense Forces in any mission that serves Israel's defense. The missions of occupation and oppression do not serve this purpose – and we shall take no part in them.

Many signatures, specifying the signatories' reserve rank (ranging from first sergeant to major) and combat unit (paratroops, armour, engineers, artillery, navy, military intelligence, airforce, Golani brigade, Givati brigade, Nahal brigade).

For information and contributions, call [phone]

Israeli Resistance: Reservists Refuse to serve in Palestinian Territories

Subject: RE: BS: Who are the Terrorists? Part 114
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 26 Jun 02 - 05:27 AM

"A fatal mistake...a bloodbath can be expected"

Who commented on Bush's speech in those terms? Shimon Peres, foreign minister in Sharon's coalition.

Here's a link to an article today by Guardian columnist Jonathan Freedland. And here's a quote. If you want, more click on the clicky. (Rather than post it all here as "GUEST, Jonathan"): "Bush's fantasy Middle East plan is bound to fail. It will strengthen those who want war, not peace...Israelis committed to a political resolution of the conflict were heartbroken."

Subject: RE: BS: Who are the Terrorists? Part 114
From: GUEST
Date: 26 Jun 02 - 05:56 AM

Making the desert bloom

"Israel likes to boast about how it made the desert bloom, how the original inhabitants of Palestine were "wasting" the land. But far from wasting the land, the Arabs lived within its constraints, in harmony with it. By making parts of its desert bloom, Israel has simply turned parts of Arab land into desert, unable to provide its inhabitants with water, the most fundamental pre-requisite for human life."

Making the blooms desert

Subject: RE: BS: Who are the Terrorists? Part 114
From: GUEST
Date: 26 Jun 02 - 08:36 AM

More information about Israeli reservists refusing to serve in the occupied territories.

BBC News

Subject: RE: BS: Who are the Terrorists? Part 114
From: GUEST
Date: 26 Jun 02 - 08:37 AM

BBC News

http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/world/middle_east/newsid_1797000/1797637.stm

Subject: RE: BS: Who are the Terrorists? Part 114
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 26 Jun 02 - 10:57 AM

Doug,

You are still being an ass, but since this your third time asking for a plan, Here is what I have said in the form of a plan.

My plan would be for Bush to:

1. Stop being a hypocrite. i.e. Caliming to support democracy, then trying to bully a result in a foreign election. Arafat's mandate in Palestine is more legit than Bushes. At least Arafat's results weren't tainted by the obvious bias of one of his brother's flunkys.

2. Listen to EVERY OTHER WORLD LEADER (except Sharon) and take a more moderate stand.

3. Try, at least, not to constantly demonstrate obvious bias towards Israel.

4. With his finger on the button of the world's most powerful Nuclear Arsenal, he should learn to pronounce it.

These things may not bring peace in the middle east. But they will help the image of the United States in the community of nations.

Subject: RE: BS: Who are the Terrorists? Part 114
From: An Pluiméir Ceolmhar
Date: 26 Jun 02 - 11:31 AM

Afghanistan, Palestine, where next?

I give you the Bush Doctrine:

"We're not in the business of nation-building. But it's quite OK for us to dictate to other countries whom they may appoint as their leaders."

Subject: RE: BS: Who are the Terrorists? Part 114
From: GUEST,ta2...when bush realises he's been conned
Date: 26 Jun 02 - 01:30 PM

bush has been led up the garden path by sharon..........taken for a mug........the alternatives to arafat are hamas.....israel out of west bank, gaza and golan, palestinians recognise israel...............israel refuses to accept palestinian country and wants to occupy palestine

Subject: RE: BS: Who are the Terrorists? Part 114
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 26 Jun 02 - 02:50 PM

I think Bush is exactly right on this...I might be tempted to go further and outst Sharon while I was at it..but this is a good start. It is like if the Mafia took over a country..we might want to do business with the decent people but not with the Mafia. We can set limits and must. We also must account for any money that is sent to places like Palestine..so that it reaches the people and does not go into the coffers of the corrupt. mg

Subject: RE: BS: Who are the Terrorists? Part 114
From: GUEST
Date: 26 Jun 02 - 04:42 PM

Why only set limits on the Palestinians? Since it's the Israeli government's policies that are causing this mess, why don't we put some limits on them?

Like maybe, "Stop expanding the settlements or we'll stop sending you billions of dollars of military aid ever year". That would be a good start.

And then, how about, "Stop denying the Palestinians in the occupied territories access to water".

And then, "Stop using collective punishment as a way to crush the entire Palestinian people in order to 'persuade' them to flee their homes yet once again".

Or maybe "Stop practicing genocide and ethnic cleansing on the Palestinian people".

I bet setting limits like those would be a hell of a lot more effective in ending the bloodshed than getting rid of Arafat.

And besides, when we turn a blind eye to these kinds of atrocities committed by Israel, and focus only on blaming the victims of these atrocities, what kind of monsters does that make us?

Subject: RE: BS: Who are the Terrorists? Part 114
From: GUEST,Dennis
Date: 26 Jun 02 - 05:07 PM

Why does the left support the Palestinians against Israel?

---

Lengthy copy-paste article deleted. Click here to find it.
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: BS: Who are the Terrorists? Part 114
From: GUEST
Date: 26 Jun 02 - 05:21 PM

Bereaved Families' Forum Letter to Netzarim Settlers

B.H. Sukkot, Wednesday, 18th October 2000

To the Netzarim Residents,

Today at approximately 8 am I received a call from my beloved friend and colleague Roni Hirshenson informing me that his son El'ad committed suicide. El'ad left a letter in which he wrote that he cannot continue living after the death of his best friend David who fell in Netzarim a day before Rosh Hashanna.

Roni and Miri, El'ad's parents, buried a son Amir, killed in the Beit-Lid bombing, in January l995 and now they bury their second son El'ad.

Letter

Subject: RE: BS: Who are the Terrorists? Part 114
From: GUEST
Date: 26 Jun 02 - 05:40 PM

On the myth of Israeli democracy -

From the Hebrew Press

Israel's Discriminatory Practices Are Rooted in Jewish Religious Law

By Dr. Israel Shahak

(This is an abridged translation of an article by the author published in the Israeli newspaper Davar on March 15, 1995.)

The rabbis of Safad, joined by the Chief Rabbi Bakshi-Doron, recently issued a judgment prohibiting Jews living in the Land of Israel to lease or sell any real estate property to non-Jews. These rabbis are on the State of Israel's payroll. Yet all too clearly, their judgment contravenes Israeli state laws proscribing public expressions of racism and utterances hurtful to human dignity.1

Nonetheless, the rabbis of Safad did not invent this prohibition. The racist ruling is part and parcel of Jewish religious law (halacha). Furthermore, all the rulings of Jewish religious law concerning non-Jews, and incidentally, also Jewish women and some other Jewish sectors, are racist and discriminatory. Yet for years such rulings have been routinely invoked by rabbinical courts which are a recognized part of the State of Israel's judiciary.

Subject: RE: BS: Who are the Terrorists? Part 114
From: GUEST
Date: 26 Jun 02 - 05:44 PM

Wrong link

Israel's Discriminatory Practices Are Rooted in Jewish Religious Law

Subject: RE: BS: Who are the Terrorists? Part 114
From: DougR
Date: 26 Jun 02 - 05:45 PM

Excellent post, GUEST Dennis.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Who are the Terrorists? Part 114
From: GUEST
Date: 26 Jun 02 - 06:42 PM

Some more information on the late Dr. Israel Shahak (as of the time the article was written) -

"Israel Shahak, a Holocaust survivor and retired professor of chemistry at the Hebrew University in Jerusalem, is chairman of the Israeli League of Human Civil Rights."

More information on the myth of democracy in Israel from the Christian Science Monitor -

ANNALS OF DISCRIMINATION

Citizen Arabs: the neglected residents of Israel

A recent US report accuses Israel of systematic bias against Israeli Arabs...

Subject: RE: BS: Who are the Terrorists? Part 114
From: GUEST
Date: 26 Jun 02 - 07:46 PM

Jewish Fundamentalism In Israel

The fundamentalist wing of the Jewish religion, while certainly not representative of Judaism as a whole, is influential in Israel, and is the ideological basis of the settler movement in the West Bank and Gaza (except for "Greater Jerusalem" where many secular Jews have moved because of cheap, subsidized housing) The following quotes show the racism inherent in this world-view and why its influence should be opposed by all rational people.

Ideological basis of racism in Israel

"The Talmud states that...two contrary types of souls exist, a non-Jewish soul comes from the Satanic spheres, while the Jewish soul stems from holiness...Rabbi Kook, the Elder, the revered father of the messianic tendency of Jewish fundamentalism said, "The difference between a Jewish soul and the souls of non-Jews...is greater and deeper than the difference between a human soul and the souls of cattle.' "Israel Shahak and Norton Mezvinsky's "Jewish Fundamentalism in Israel"

Racism - continued

"Gush Emunim rabbis have continually reiterated that Jews who killed Arabs should not be punished, [e.g.]...Relying on the Code of Maimonides and the Halacha, Rabbi Ariel stated, 'A Jew who killed a non-Jew is exempt from human judgement and has not violated the [religious] prohibition of murder'..The significance here is most striking when the broad support, both direct and indirect, for Gush Emunim is considered. About one-half of Israel's Jewish population supports Gush Emunim." "Israel Shahak and Norton Mezvinsky's "Jewish Fundamentalism in Israel"

Jewish fundamentalist rationale for seizing Arab land

"They argue that what appears to be confiscation of Arab owned land for subsequent settlement by Jews is in reality not an act of stealing but one of sanctification. From their perspective the land is being redeemed by being transferred from the satanic to the divine sphere...To further this process, the use of force is permitted whenever necessary...Halacha permits Jews to rob non-Jews in those locales wherein Jews are stronger than non-Jews." "Israel Shahak and Norton Mezvinsky's "Jewish Fundamentalism in Israel"

Subject: RE: BS: Who are the Terrorists? Part 114
From: GUEST
Date: 26 Jun 02 - 07:53 PM

Answer to the slanders of Stefan Bialoguski against "Jewish Fundamentalism in Israel" by Israel Shahak and Norton Mezvinsky (Pluto Press, 1999 ISBN 0745312764)

Stefan Bialoguski thinks that intellectual and often public terror employed in the USA and other countries against Jews who speak the truth about Judaism, whether in form it took after the inception of Talmud or its continuation in Orthodox Judaism will succeed against an Israeli Jew like me.

Contrary to the great majority of American Jews, Israeli Jews enjoy three great advantages with regard to the freedom of expression on Jewish issues: they read Hebrew and can read Halacha and other Jewish documents in the original, and are not dependent on the falsehoods circulated about those by rabbis and Jewish organizations.

They see, with the help of their Hebrew press, whose behavior is much more honest when reporting Jewish issues than the American one, what Orthodox rabbis (almost all Israeli rabbis are Orthodox) do when they have political power, and many of them noted long ago the close resemblance the Orthodox rabbis bear to the Ayatollahs in their aims, and also the close resemblance between the Halacha and the religious law now established in Iran. I have no doubt that had the common Israeli slogans "Israel will not be an Iran" or "Israel will not be rules by Jewish Ayatollahs" ­ meaning the rabbis ­ been raised in the USA, American defenders of Jewish zealotry and discrimination if directed against non Jews, would have protested as strongly against such typical Israeli slogans as they do against "Jewish Fundamentalism in Israel".

More on Jewish Law from Dr. Israel Shahak

Subject: RE: BS: Who are the Terrorists? Part 114
From: Bobert
Date: 26 Jun 02 - 08:13 PM

Yo, GUEST Dennis. Exactly where did you come up with this idea that the left controls the western media? I mean, if you really think that then you are so far to the right that folks on the left can't see you thru the right wing controled media. The media is owned by rich corporate folks. The same rich corporate folks that bring us Enron and Worldcom. Hey, they have nothing, no make that absolutely nothing to gain, and every everything to loose by reporting the truth. Hey, when it was brought to their attention that Jeb Bush and Katleen Harris had illegally purged 57,000 voters, most of whom would have not voted for Jeb's brother, making Al Gore today's president, did they report that. Hell no, they didn't. So don't preach that left wing media stuff around here. There are way too many catfolk with intellegence that know that dog don't hunt. It's so far from reality, that it doesn't even warrent a chuckle...

But if you want to keep eating the media's steady diet of press releases and stuff the corporate PR folks invent, that's your business. Just don't report this pablem as being true, thank you...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Who are the Terrorists? Part 114
From: robomatic
Date: 26 Jun 02 - 08:43 PM

Again: If Israel is so terrible and full of all these religious restrictions and if Jews really believe all that crap about 'Jewish' souls versus non-Jewish souls, how come Israel has had religious freedom and substantial Muslim and Christian minorities which pursue their own religious destinies.

If you want to go quoting Talmud and various theories of Jews, at least admit that similar extreme religious views have been held among Christians (ever hear of the Crusades?) and Muslims (check out the Rock of Conversion Story in the travel book "A Short Walk in the Hindu Kush")

These are not real arguments against Israel and her actions.

A more appropriate model would be the genesis (if you will allow the word) of American Independence. About 1/3 of American colonists were for freedom in the 1750's, another 1/3 were opposed, and about 1/3 didn't wish to choose sides. After a protracted war with the mother country during many colonists fought on both sides, the Americans won. The Tories either accepted American rule or moved out on their own or were moved out. That is ethnic cleansing. That is also where Canada got their first main English speaking inhabitants.

It took time, but it all got settled eventually. But legally speaking, the State of Israel is on a moral equivalence with the United States of America.

Palestinians only need shift their right of return to Jordan, which has a very large Palestinian component (if not majority) already.

Subject: RE: BS: Who are the Terrorists? Part 114
From: GUEST
Date: 26 Jun 02 - 08:53 PM

I don't think anyone's suggesting that Judaism is the only religion that has problems with racism, discrimination and extremism. The main problem, as I see it, is that the most Jews haven't yet admitted that they are just as capable as anyone else of being motivated by these things.

But if you want to correct these problems and practices, you're not going to do it by defending them, or denying that they exist.

The only way to correct them is to speak out agains them, and to not participate in them yourself. And if you want Israel to move beyond these problems, you need to make your voice heard by the US government and the Israeli government. Unless you do that, you are complicit.

Subject: RE: BS: Who are the Terrorists? Part 114
From: GUEST
Date: 26 Jun 02 - 08:56 PM

Palestinians only need shift their right of return to Jordan, which has a very large Palestinian component (if not majority) already.

But I can clearly see that you are not yet ready to give up your own racism.

Subject: RE: BS: Who are the Terrorists? Part 114
From: GUEST
Date: 26 Jun 02 - 09:46 PM

And the other thing you may fail to realize is that as a non-Jew myself, according to Jewish law, it is not forbidden for a Jew to kill me. And that as a woman, simply by virtue of not being Jewish, according to Jewish law, I am a harlot.

So what motivation do you think I would have for wanting the Jewish fundamentalists to prevail in Israel, or anywhere else for that matter? Personally, that reality is no more palatable to me than Muslim fundamentalism.

Subject: RE: BS: Who are the Terrorists? Part 114
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 26 Jun 02 - 10:25 PM

Why would Palestinians want a right of return to Jordan if their land was elsewhere? They might want a right of citizenship. We will not understand this mess unless we understand the attachment that people have to their land. That is what they want. It doesn't mean they will get it but that is what they want. I think, I am not at all sure, that the concept of a state is secondary. mg

Subject: RE: BS: Who are the Terrorists? Part 114
From: GUEST
Date: 26 Jun 02 - 10:39 PM

They want the right to live like human beings in the land of their origin.

Subject: RE: BS: Who are the Terrorists? Part 114
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 26 Jun 02 - 10:46 PM

Guest Dennis wouldn't know the left, if it bit him in the ass. Bush is a centrist just like pretty much every head of state in the west. There is a difference between being conservative and selling out. There is a difference between being conservative and being dumb, but bush doesn't seem to realize that.

Subject: RE: BS: Who are the Terrorists? Part 114
From: GUEST,Gwen
Date: 26 Jun 02 - 11:48 PM

Again: If Israel is so terrible and full of all these religious restrictions and if Jews really believe all that crap about 'Jewish' souls versus non-Jewish souls, how come Israel has had religious freedom and substantial Muslim and Christian minorities which pursue their own religious destinies.

This is a riot! Sure! They can pursue any religion they want! They just can't have access to the same civil rights as Jews. What the hell good is that? Get real, Robomatic! Denying people equal rights because of religion is discrimination. How long would *you* put up with that sort of garbage in *your* country?

Subject: RE: BS: Who are the Terrorists? Part 114
From: GUEST,Arthur S.
Date: 27 Jun 02 - 02:05 AM

robomatic says:

"But legally speaking, the State of Israel is on a moral equivalence with the United States of America."

In modern times it's on a moral equivalence with Apartheid South Africa.

Subject: RE: BS: Who are the Terrorists? Part 114
From: GUEST,innocent bystander
Date: 27 Jun 02 - 03:18 AM

Please can I go back to the title of this thread - Who are the Terrorists?..... Seems to me that folks tend to bog down in explaining why their side isn't, and the others are, then we get historical excuses for it. Let's get back to basics. What do we accept as a general definition for terrorists?

Is a terrorist organisation any group whatsoever who, for whatever reason, is determined to use acts of violence on the general population of any state, or region, or district, for the purpose of imposing their will on the governing authority, or population of that territory?

If so, and other nations wish to stop them carrying out their murderous attacks, then maybe we should ALL take steps to do it, and not just talk about it and say tut-tut, how shameful. The UN (I know, I know, but it's the best thing we've got at the moment...) member nations could place peace-keeping forces into Israel to keep the Israelis and Palestinians from each other's throats, and then use international law to try peace-breakers and those responsible for artrocities. And yes, I do include Arafat AND Sharon and any of their associates who might be involved. Didn't something along those lines happen in europe a while back? Let's try it again... Some kind of positive action could also defuse an increasingly dangerous situation elsewhere if governments encouraging terrorists and extremists in neighbouring states were to be called to account and united military strength used to enforce a stand-down?

It's only a suggestion, folks. Now where's the nearest fox-hole.......

Subject: RE: BS: Who are the Terrorists? Part 114
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 27 Jun 02 - 12:12 PM

John Ashcroft is the terrorist. When they captured Padilla, the "Dirty Bomber". Ashcroft inplied that it was part of a huge conspiracy and said that a dirty bomb could kill thousands. He said this to justify the indefinate detention of a US citizen without a trial,due process or even a criminal charge. Both statements were patently untrue. Terrorizing the public to deny civil rights is terrorism.

Making subsequent terrorists much more effective by completely exaggerating the possible impact, may not technically be terrorism, but it is aiding and abetting. Instead of going after Palestine, maybe Bush should send the marines in to get his attorney general.

Subject: RE: BS: Who are the Terrorists? Part 114
From: Joe Offer
Date: 27 Jun 02 - 01:16 PM

Please remember that Mudcat is a Music Forum. We welcome discussion of all topics, but we give special emphasis to music.

If you wish to discuss other topics, you are welcome to post your own opinions. Please do not copy-paste the entire texts of lengthy non-music articles that are available elsewhere on the Internet - just post a link and summarize the article in your own words.
If you find music information you wish to share, particularly if it is about folk music, please DO post the entire text, plus a link to where you found it.
Thank you.
You people go way too far in this series of threads, and you know it. I note that that the people guilty of this abuse are primarily anonymous guests. I suppose a solution would be to prohibit non-music posts from unregistered guests. I don't want to have to do that.

-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: BS: Who are the Terrorists? Part 114
From: Jack The Lad
Date: 27 Jun 02 - 02:26 PM

My plan would be to dismantle the aparthied Jewish State of Israel, and establish in its place a country where Jews, and Palestinian Arabs and Christians can live together in peace and equality.>- Guest.

My wife and I have just come from a trip to Haifa- we spent some time in a big shopping mall. In spite of the strict security, and the terrorist alerts,we mingled with traditionally garbed Muslim women( and men,but they mostly dress just like anybody else-in jeans and shirts)- Israeli Arab citizens- going peacefully about their business.We enjoyed a meal,sitting alongside of other citizens- Arab & Jew, black, white and oriental. Israel is one of the most racially mixed societies there is. There is no apartheit here. There's plenty needs fixing- and much education to be done- but there is freedom of religion- and racial equality here. Peaceful people of all religious persuasions and racial backgrounds can live together here- in peace and equality.

The Halachic Laws referring to God given Jewish Supremacy over gentiles, are just archaic leftovers from biblical and medieval times. They are not applicable in Israel today. Israel is not a Halachic State-the vast majority of its citizens(including most of the religious ones) don't want it to be, and accordsing to rabbis I have heard, it would be impossible to make it so today. Israel is a democracy- War and terror don't make it easy for a democracy to shine brightly, but there are checks and balances here. Peace will come eventually. In the meantime the civil liberties of minorities here, ethnic, sexual or religious are still greater than in all the other countries of the Middle East. Jack The Lad- in Israel

Subject: RE: BS: Who are the Terrorists? Part 114
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Jun 02 - 06:32 PM

You can deny reality all you want Jack the Lad, but that won't make it go away. But if you choose to remain in denial, don't be surprised when people respond in ways you don't like to the flagrant abuses of human rights that are being committed by Israel on a daily basis.

Your words would have a lot more credibility if you had signed them "Jack The Lad- in the Palestinian Occupied Territories". It's easy to think things are peachy when you're one of the priveleged ones. Try spending some time in the shoes of the ones who aren't so lucky. I think then you would be singing a different tune.

There's plenty more proof of Israel's crimes against humanity available to post here. The problem isn't a lack of information. It's that there's just so much of it, it's difficult to pick and choose what to use in such a limited space.

And as far as Halachic law not being used in Israel's judicial processes, there are specific cases that can be posted here that prove that you are wrong.

Joe Offer, when the Mudcat is as diligent about deleting racist hate mongering toward Muslims, Arabs, and Palestinians, as it is about deleting racist hate mongering toward certain other groups of people, that's when threads like this one will stop being a problem.

Subject: RE: BS: Who are the Terrorists? Part 114
From: robomatic
Date: 28 Jun 02 - 02:27 PM

Dear Guest(s) (So brave of you to drop in!) I think you are exposing your own prejudices by simply calling everyone who disagrees with you racist. Calling Israel the Pa. Occu. Territs. is a merely denial of reality. And as for a Jew being permitted to kill a non-Jew by religious law, or being regarded a harlot because one is female and not Jewish, both those statements are categorically false. They are the same things you can find on any number of anti-semitic, i.e. Nazi websites. Why not just post a link?

Subject: RE: BS: Who are the Terrorists? Part 114
From: GUEST
Date: 28 Jun 02 - 03:36 PM

I did post the link. Why didn't you read it? Here it is again. Dr. Israel Shahak's rebuttal to the Nazi website line of BS. Maybe you'll read it this time.

http://www.cactus48.com/jewishlaw.html

Are you calling this Jewish Holocaust surviver a Nazi?

Subject: RE: BS: Who are the Terrorists? Part 114
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 28 Jun 02 - 04:06 PM

It sure is easy to call people names over this.

Does anyone have anthing but insults to share??

Subject: RE: BS: Who are the Terrorists? Part 114
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 28 Jun 02 - 08:02 PM

I do. First of all, I will go there when I have the money to go, and volunteer in a school or something for a while. Will anyone join me? At least theoretically. It is very important for there to be witnesses to all sorts of imposed compliances. It is important for there to be dialog to help get everyone out of their locked in thinking. It is important for everyone to understand that the world is not willing to die for this mess, so we have to straighten it out. Someone said what is keeping it going is not despair but hope. Everyone should realize there is no hope for all of what they want..not an infinite Israel with no borders and not much accountability, and not a Palestine as it was, a rural paradise in their collective memories. Once hopes have been realigned into reality, then I believe as Bush said, that progress can be made fairly rapidly.

I totally disagree with the naysayers..that Palestine first has to be better than say Denmark before there is a chance for anything...it will be a work in progress for some time, but there are times when the world has to set limits...as few as possible, as gently as possible..but this is one of the times. I will personally go if I am able; I will personally shoot any terrorists that cross my path and if all sorts of general tourists and people that are Habitat for Humanity types..the type that go to Honduras etc. now..go and help with education and sanitation etc..particularly vocational education..it will be o.k.

mg

Subject: RE: BS: Who are the Terrorists? Part 114
From: GUEST
Date: 28 Jun 02 - 10:23 PM

mg, I think you will do a lot of good if you go there. I hope you do go, and I hope you make a big difference. There are already a lot of people who are doing what you've said you want to do. I can get you some links for organizations you can contact if you want them.

These are the questions I would ask you: you say you would shoot any terrorist that crosses your path. How are you going to decide who is and who isn't a terrorist?

Sometimes Israeli settlers behave like terrorists and murder and kill innocent Palestinians in the occupied territories. If you saw an Israeli settler doing something like that, would you shoot him or her? What do you think would happen to you if you did that?

Subject: RE: BS: Who are the Terrorists? Part 114
From: GUEST
Date: 28 Jun 02 - 10:28 PM

I'd like to take my previous question a little further.

What if you saw a guard at a checkpoint not allowing a Palestinian woman in labor through so she could get to a hospital? What if it was obvious that either her life or the baby's life was in danger? These kinds of things happen quite often. Would you shoot the guard in such a case?

Subject: RE: BS: Who are the Terrorists? Part 114
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 28 Jun 02 - 11:44 PM

theoretically, yes. I would shoot a terrorist on either side. I would give the guard an order, having made sure that the woman was really in labor and not rigged with explosives. (that is why it is important to have women in these checkpoint situations.) I would transfer her to a neutral ambulance and not allow anyone to be with her. I would not permit any packages. If necessary, she would be removed of her clothing and put in neutral clothing. This all could be done very quickly with trained people. I am thinking in military mode, and it is highly unlikely that the military wants me to go but I stand ready.

mg

Subject: RE: BS: Who are the Terrorists? Part 114
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Jun 02 - 12:04 AM

I wish you were there now, mg.

Subject: RE: BS: Who are the Terrorists? Part 114
From: Jack The Lad
Date: 29 Jun 02 - 05:34 PM

Well Well Well, Here is a privileged Jew writing from occupied Palestine. I have just come back from a privileged weekend in a high class hotel in Haifa- ( subsidized, I must add, by the union of High School Teachers, of which I am a member) I must say that nearly all of the waiters were Arabs- privileged to serve us Ubermenchen- though the shackles did slow down the service a little. Still , I thought it was White of us to let them serve us, as they ARE the enemy, and might poison us. Some even gave them tips to send home to their starving pickaninies. Funny thing though, I noticed that many of the hotel guests too, were Arabs. Must be Quislings in the pay of their Zionist masters !

No , seriously now folks, a little reporting from Israel as it really is , perhaps wouldn't do too much damage- except perhaps to some folks' preconceived opinions- but then again perhaps not- as they never seem to let reality interfere with their platform. After relaxing by the poolside all day, we took a stroll in Haifa's Upper Carmel Area- an upbeat shopping area, full of cafes, restaurants and boutiques, There at the main intersection were two peaceful demonstrations- intermingling. The greater number- I am happy to say- were of the Peace Now camp- urging an end to the Occupation, and for establishing "Two States for Two Peoples" The opposition were urging "An End to Arafat" "Israel Be Strong" and other Patriotic sentiments. All this was in the middle of the Saturday night strollers and cafe goers. No one was shouting or upset- both sides were discussing peacably. Apparently this kind of thing goes on every Saturday night. I believe that the Peace movement is gaining momentum in Israel. Perhaps it will lead to reciprocity among the Palestinians too. Jack The Lad- in Israel- which is still Israel

P.S -Guest MG, The airlanes are open and people may live freely as volunteers on either side of the checkpoints- helping Palestinians or helping Israeli Arabs or Jews. Let me know when you plan to arrive and perhaps I can help you. I do hope though that you won't be shooting anybody. JTL

Subject: RE: BS: Who are the Terrorists? Part 114
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Jun 02 - 05:58 PM

Jack the Lad- in Israel, I'm really glad you're having a nice weekend and that there are people protesting the Israeli government as you say there are.

My main arguments with what you said before, and they are still my arguments with you, are this: "Peaceful people of all religious persuasions and racial backgrounds can live together here- in peace and equality."

And this: "The Halachic Laws referring to God given Jewish Supremacy over gentiles, are just archaic leftovers from biblical and medieval times. They are not applicable in Israel today."

As far as I can see, it's your word against a mountain of documentation from credible sources. Apparently the documentation I've already provided isn't enough for you, so I'll get busy gathering up some more. I can see that it will require a *lot* since your word obviously carries so much more weight than that of everybody else. No problem. It's all there. It'll just take me a day or two to get it all together.

However, what I said about you being one of the priveleged ones still stands. Just the fact that you don't know that Palestinian Israelis don't feel equal in your society demonstrates this. You are apparently blissfully unaware that there are Palestinian Israelis who do not feel as you do, that there are equal rights for all in Israel. Your ignorance of this fact shows how protected you are from the harsher realities of living in Israel as a non-Jew. (And I'm talking about Israel proper here, and not the occupied territories where the Palestinians have no rights at all.)

Subject: RE: BS: Who are the Terrorists? Part 114
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Jun 02 - 06:25 PM

And if by this: "except perhaps to some folks' preconceived opinions- but then again perhaps not- as they never seem to let reality interfere with their platform", you are refering to the GUEST posts in this thread that document Israeli human rights abuses and disrimination based on religion, I find that pretty laughable to the extent that this is being applied to what I have posted.

That's a psychological ploy that I have encountered a lot recently. I say "recently" because never in my life, prior to Israel's incursions into the occupied territories this past March, have I *ever* questioned anything Israel has done. In fact, I didn't really know anything about Israel (or the middle east) at all. So, having never disagreed with anyone about Israel, I have never encountered the myriad of psychological smear tactics that I'm now finding are used by people who want to silence any disagreement on the subject.

I must say, it's been quite an education these last few months. Kind of like getting plunged into a bucket of ice water. I'll provide documentation on the smear tactics, too, as I'm discovering that I'm far from being the only person who is experiencing this sort of thing. Would you believe people are actually using these psychological smear tactic on *Rabbi's* too? Hard to believe, I know, but it's true.

But I'm afraid any speculation on your part about any sort of pre-concieved opinions I may or may not have are misplaced, and are simply that: speculation.

Subject: RE: BS: Who are the Terrorists? Part 114
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Jun 02 - 06:56 AM

Jack the Lad- in Israel, here are a couple for you to read until I finish organizing the rest of the documentation I'm gathering for you on the subject of equality (or the lack of it) in Israel for non-Jews.

This is from the perspective of an American Jew who was living in Israel. I am posting the introduction and one paragraph from Rebecca's letter. The rest can be found at this site: http://www.nimn.org/.

"WHO ARE THESE PEOPLE, MY PEOPLE?"
by Rebecca Elswit

This is a powerful eye-witness report of the Israeli police riot and attack on Palestinians at the Al-Aqsa Mosque that occured on July 29, 2001. That day, Tisha B'av on the Jewish calendar, an ultra-nationalist group, the Temple Mount Faithful, led a provative march on the Mosque carrying banners that read, "The Temple Mount is Ours!" In anger, some Palestinians tossed about 30 stones down on some Jews praying at the Western Wall, below. This was all the excuse needed for the police in riot gear to charge up the hill firing rubber buttlets. Hundreds of Palestinains took refuge in the Mosque, from which they threw shoes at the police to prevent them from entering. Hours later most of them were able to run home. Many were arrested. Rebecca Eslwit posted this heart-felt email to the NIMN email list. We thank her for sharing her experience and her feelings with us.

"then they brought another kid. and they were twisting his arm (i dont know who 'they' is, the police or the army, everything is blurry), and they were twisting it and twisting it and he was screaming and they were twisting and then it broke. and it was like behind his back, up by the opposite side of his neck. and he stopped screaming. and i started. i screamed what the hell are you doing, like, really really loudly and then i screamed some more, just noise, because i could not stop. i did not mean to scream. it just came out. and then they pushed me away and yelled at me to get out of the area. crying, choking on my sobs. i calmed down a bit, and then a religious guy said to me, baruch hashem, ken?, which is like, thank god, yeah? and i just looked at him and said in hebrew 'they are also people' and then he yelled, she thinks they are also people. and a bunch of people stood around me yelling about how i could think that, and death to the arabs,and some other stuff that i didnt understand."

The following is from the Palestinian perspective (those happy Palestinian Israelis you mentioned who are enjoying equal rights with Jews in Israel proper):

The Palestinian citizens of Israel constitute a national, ethnic and religious minority and account for 20 percent of Israel's population: 1,057,800 out of a total population of 5,757,900. They are those Palestinians who were not exiled as a result of the 1948 war, but stayed within the borders of the new state of Israel. Between 1948 and 1966, the Palestinian citizens of Israel were subjected to military rule that applied only to them. Since 1948, Israel has maintained an officially declared state of emergency.

The vast majority of the 1948 Palestinians live in all-Palestinian towns and villages, which are located in three main areas: in the Galilee in the north, in the "little triangle" in the centre, and in the Negev in the south. There are also six mixed Jewish-Arab cities.

The 1948 Palestinians are subject to a wide variety of overt and more covert forms of discrimination in their individual rights, opportunities, and provision of services. Palestinians have the lowest socio-economic status of all groups in the state, and wide gaps exist between Jews and Arabs in among other things income, health provisions, education levels, employment and housing conditions.

Under the provisions of the International Covenant for Civil and Political Rights, to which Israel is a state party, Israel is obliged to offer effective protection against discrimination to all its citizens and special safeguards for the rights of minorities.

Despite the fact that the State of Israel was founded on Zionist principles as a "Jewish homeland", nearly one million citizens or about 20 precent of the State's population are Palestinians. This community identifies itself as an integral part of the Palestinian people, while at the same time are citizens of the State of Israel, however, they are not provided with the same rights as Jewish citizens of the State. Institutionalised inequality, discriminatory policies, and informal prejudice all combine to prevent Palestinian citizens in Israel from attaining social and economic equality.

At least twenty discriminatory laws are in place which work to disadvantage the Palestinian population in Israel. The existence of these discriminatory laws has been brought to light in an international arena because it is apparent that local legal measures, including attempts to utilise the Supreme Court, cannot be successful alone in achieving equality and minority rights protections.

By 1993, the Palestinian population had lost over 80 percent of its land through State expropriation, much which was taken under the Absentees' Property Law (1950). This law classifies the land left by the Palestinian refugees in 1948 as "absentee property", and also declares that those citizens who were compelled to leave their land but who remained within the State as "present absentees". Pursuant to this law, the population of tens of Palestinian villages became "uprooted" citizens, cut off from their land and often their livelihood. Moreover, before 1948, it was estimated that between 12 percent and 18 percent of agricultural law was Waqf property. After the establishment of Israel, the Waqf was deemed to be "absentee property", transferred to the Custodian for Absentees' Property and unavailable for use by the Palestinian community. The loss of Muslim Waqf sites caused further hardships as the income generated from this land had been used for schools, clinics and orphanages, and to administer a system of charity. As a result of these losses, the Palestinian community's economic base shifted from agriculture to wage-labor and service-oriented employment. Coupled with the lack of sufficient services and resources from the government, the Palestinian minority suffers from a disproportionate share of the country's economic, social, and health-related problems.

Israel has kept the situation of the 1948 Palestinians out of the international limelight for obvious reasons, as well as the State's particular sensitivity to international opinion. While Israel has signed most of international human rights treaties, it continues to violate or disregard provisions of these covenants. As a result of these violations, the Palestinian minority has legitimate reason to request that UN actors and other State Parties to these conventions take action to guarantee Israel's compliance, namely to repeatedly hold Israel accountable for violations of the rights of Palestinian citizens of the State.

http://hanthala.virtualave.net/48intro.html

Subject: RE: BS: Who are the Terrorists? Part 114
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Jun 02 - 07:20 AM

The first link in my last post (GUEST, 30-Jun-02 - 06:56 AM) doesn't work. Here's the correct link for those excerpted paragraphs:

http://www.nimn.org/jewishper/re1.html

Here's some documentation on the coersive tactics and the smear tactics that are being used to silence dissent within the Jewish community. I have posted only part of the speach. The rest can be found at this site http://www.nimn.org/jewishper/me1.html

On The Rabbis and the Future of Jewish Life
by Marc H. Ellis

Marc H. Ellis is a Professor of American and Jewish Studies, and Director of the Center for American and Jewish Studies at Baylor University. This is a lecture he delivered at The Montague Centre, London to the Rabbinic Conference of the Union of Liberal & Progressive Synagogues on June 5, 2001.

...I wonder now whether these rabbis would protest today what is surely the swiftest and strangest inversion of position and power in history. Certainly the rabbis I encounter at home and on the road have little if anything to say about the current situation, except to be silent, to be in unity, to strike at anyone, Jew or non-Jew, who speaks out at the abuse of Israeli power. Perhaps the rabbis with whom I studied, now long retired, escaped the moment of decision when victimisation turned to oppression and the role reversal called for resistance to our own power rather than the power of others.

I think here of Abraham Heschel and Leo Baeck, in ability well beyond my local rabbis, who, having experienced the Nazi era, were spared, at least consciously and critically, these last decades of Israel's life. What would they say about helicopter gunships? What would they say to the displacement of Palestinians that has continued long after the emergency years of the Holocaust?

Would Heschel and Baeck have spoken out against the settlements that continue to expand and erode the possibility of self-determination for Palestinians, with sophisticated by-pass roads and checkpoints that isolate Jews from Palestinians, encircle and enclose Palestinian life and create what many call an apartheid reality? If they spoke out what would they say? Would they then be pursued, as many Jews are, by the local rabbis, the Jewish Federation, the Anti-Defamation League, and Hillel chapters on university campuses? Would they be called traitors, self-hating Jews, "unabashedly pro-Palestinian", and among those who "create the context for another Holocaust"?

While we do not know what Heschel and Baeck would say, or for that matter, the local rabbis of my youth, or what would be said about them if they did speak out, we do know that few Jews in public life speak out today against the injustice of Israel's policies toward the Palestinians and that those who do are maligned and pursued. Death threats against dissenting Jews abound, but they are only the most extreme of the tactics used to silence Israel's critics.

What is more commonly used are visits to employers, statements in the press and gossip with local cultural and political elites about the authenticity and character of the Jewish dissenter. Ecumenical relationships that have been built up over many years are often used to signal a dissenting Jew as a troublemaker, one to be ostracised and even demeaned by religious leaders of another faith community...

Subject: RE: BS: Who are the Terrorists? Part 114
From: Celtic Soul
Date: 30 Jun 02 - 09:35 AM

GUEST pens: "While Israel has signed most of international human rights treaties, it continues to violate or disregard provisions of these covenants. As a result of these violations, the Palestinian minority has legitimate reason to request that UN actors and other State Parties to these conventions take action to guarantee Israel's compliance, namely to repeatedly hold Israel accountable for violations of the rights of Palestinian citizens of the State".

I add: When the UN quits appointing countries such as the Sudan, (a country with one of the worst human rights track records in the world today) to their "Human Rights Commission", then, perhaps, what the UN has to say might matter. Until then, they are no less the hypocrits you say Israel is. Take a look at *womens* rights in the majority of Islamic theocracies. Take a look at the rights of *anyone* who is not a practicing Muslim in the Sudan. Slavery. Not merely a lack of the same rights. They are being *sold* as property.

It's this huge global pot and kettle thing.

:::Donning my flame retardant knickers:::

Subject: RE: BS: Who are the Terrorists? Part 114
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Jun 02 - 02:30 PM

Except that I'm not the one who "penned" that CS. I quoted it from a source who penned it.

On the other hand, it does seem pretty aparent that some outside intervention is need, as mg has repeatedly said. Do you know of any organization that can help in this way other than the UN?

Subject: RE: BS: Who are the Terrorists? Part 114
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Jun 02 - 05:42 PM

Hello, I've deleted my cookie and I'm now an anonymous Guest.

However, don't confuse me with CarolC who also deleted her cookie and now posts ad nauseum as an anonymous guest in these threads in exactly the same way she did as CarolC.

BTW, I fully expect CarolC to reset her cookie and post a denial that all of these CarolC-type posts from an anonymous Guest were not from her. However, anyone who has read CarolC's posts and this anonymous Guest's posts can easily see that they're from the same person.

I'm going tp gp reset mu cookie now.

Subject: RE: BS: Who are the Terrorists? Part 114
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Jun 02 - 10:22 PM

GUEST, what does it really matter? When you consider the importance of what's being posted, it looks to me like this obsession with CarolC and what she might or might not be posting is indicative of some kind of cyber psychopathology. Someone used a really good term to refer to people like you recently. Techno-stalker, I think he said. Sounds about right.

I might be CarolC and I might not. That's the beauty of being able to post as GUEST. I can even get in on the fun and speculate on whom you might actually be. Hell, you could even be Max for all anyone knows. It's a funny old world innit?

Subject: RE: BS: Who are the Terrorists? Part 114
From: Bobert
Date: 30 Jun 02 - 10:45 PM

Danged, last time I visited here there was some serious discussion going on and now it some kind of Holoween Party. Well? Trick or Treat!

Sorry I didn't know that Iz was 'spozed to have a mask but I'z making a scarey face. Does that count?

Hey folks, seriously, ol bobert has said it before and gonna say it again. War is terror and anyone playin' war is a terrorist. I didn't say defense. I said "playin' war. A lot of folks can't seperate the two because of fualty wiring and too many years of taking in the military industrial complex's song and dance routine.

Let me suggest that if you are a "Yeah-But" thinker than you have problably been well programed by the hawks and need tro step back and reflect on the possibility of peaceful coexhistence. If all you are doing is writing reams and reams justifying your side then you have become part of the problem...

Bottom line. There is some pretty messed up human behavior in this world and as the single World's Super Power, the US can, if it wishes, to make folks behave civilly. Unfortuately, the US is controlled by folks who profit fom war, who are in themselves.... terrorist.

We need a change of thinking where folks are more concerned about the planet and each other than profits.

Think peace.

Vote Green for change...

still Bobert...

Subject: RE: BS: Who are the Terrorists? Part 114
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Jun 02 - 10:57 PM

Let's all take a really deep breath now, and repeat after me...

Ooooooohhhhhhmmmmmmmm...

I live in a state of peace and serenity.

Oooohhhhhmmmmmmm......

I don't need to know the identity of every GUEST poster.

Ooooooohhhhhhmmmm.....

I can be happy taking care of my own identity.

Oooooohhhhhhmmmmmm.....

Sometimes information is more important than personalities.

Oooooohhhhhhhhhmmmmmm....

I promise myself I will lose the need to silence those who post in an open forum things I find threatening to my safe little belief system.

Oooooooohhhhhhhmmmmm......

I am now going down to my basement to dismantle the CarolC shrine I've built there, and try to lose my obsession with CarolC and get on with my life. I know I'll feel better if I do.

Oooooohhhhhhhhmmmmmm.......

Subject: RE: BS: Who are the Terrorists? Part 114
From: TeriLu
Date: 01 Jul 02 - 02:22 AM

People (mostly men) who rape and batter and molest and torture women and children and animals, and make and enforce laws that give unequal (or no) rights to women and children, and who make t.v. shows and movies that feature rape and murder constantly, turning these crimes into entertainment. Companies that use advertising that promotes racism, sexism and agism, and sexualizes everything, including children. The School of the Americas, most of the leaders of countries (and militaries) with any military might, abusive police, psychos who stalk, obscene phone callers, and those idiots with landmines, bombs, and weapons used against non-military, unarmed ceatures and people. Peace, Terilu (I really prefer the music threads)

Subject: RE: BS: Who are the Terrorists? Part 114
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Jul 02 - 03:02 AM

Here you go, Jack the Lad- in Israel. Here's a few for starters. Let me know if this isn't enough for you. There's plenty more where this stuff came from.

The Janus Face of Israeli Democracy
by Michael Dahan

Michael Dahan is an Israeli political scientist and is currently conducting post doctoral research at the Political Science Department, University of Cincinnati.

http://www.nimn.org/jewishper/md1.html

War on Want: Campaigns/Palestine
A Palestinian Israeli civil rights organizaton

13 Palestinian citizens of Israel killed in demonstrations

Demands for equality with Jewish citizens

October 2000 – 13 killed in confrontations with police

Commission of Inquiry: Lawyers for the families of the victims are pursuing justice within the Israeli legal system. The Israeli government initially denied them the right to such a commission. Whatever the outcome of this inquiry the events of October have exposed the apartheid system at the heart of Israeli state and society. It is essential that the discrimination against Palestinians inside Israel is also challenged alongside the suppression of the rights of Palestinians in the rest of the world. The Parents Committee: will continue to work alongside NGOs and community activists to struggle for the recognition of the rights of Palestinian Arab citizens.

http://www.waronwant.org/palestine/families.htm

Israeli Repression and the Language of Liars
by Tim Wise

http://www.refuseandresist.org/normalcy/052102tjwise.html

Trade and FinanceEconomic Figures Tell Us the True Purpose of Israel's Impoverishment of the West Bank and Gaza By Colin MacKinnon

http://www.washington-report.org/backissues/1098/9810087.html

What Debate on Zionism is Really About The Boston Globe, August 30, 2001
Shibley Telhami, Nonresident Senior Fellow, Foreign Policy Studies

Shibley Telhami holds the Anwar Sadat Chair for Peace and Development at the University of Maryland.

http://www.brook.edu/dybdocroot/views/op-ed/telhami/20010830.htm

PovertyNet Library

Incorporation Without Integration: Palestinian Citizens in Israel's Labour Market
Ahmad Sa'di

http://poverty.worldbank.org/library/view/5933/

The Arab Association for Human Rights

http://www.arabhra.org/

http://www.arabhra.org/core/2conclud.htm

Discrimination in Israeli Law

http://www.arabhra.org/article26/factsheet1.htm

Here's some information on economic inequality that is engineered by Israel between Israel and the Occupied Territories

ISRAEL'S ECONOMIC WAR AGAINST THE PALESTINIANS
By Roger Riddel

http://www.nadir.org/nadir/initiativ/agp/new/struggles/palestine/0204Israel_Economic_War.htm

Subject: RE: BS: Who are the Terrorists? Part 114
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Jul 02 - 07:09 AM

Looks like Joe Offer forgot to include a link when he deleted the text of Phoebe's piece on Barak's generous offer. Here's the link, and a few others on the same subject:

Camp David: The Tragedy of Errors
By Hussein Agha, Robert Malley

http://www.nybooks.com/articles/14380

The Day Barak's Bubble Burst

http://www.gush-shalom.org/archives/benami_eng.html

Adviser: Clinton Exasperated With Barak During Peace Talks

By Alan Sipress

Washington Post

July 18, 2001

http://www.globalpolicy.org/security/issues/israel-palestine/2001/0718clint.htm

A Different Take on Camp David Collapse

Palestinian Disputes Conventional Wisdom on Breakdown of U.S.-Led Peace Talks

http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn?pagename=article&node=&contentId=A40781-2001Jul23¬Found=true

Subject: RE: BS: Who are the Terrorists? Part 114
From: Celtic Soul
Date: 01 Jul 02 - 05:45 PM

Whether or not it is CarolC...I will add one thing that she and I spoke of:

Brick wall-------> head. Repeat until point is gotten.

Subject: RE: BS: Who are the Terrorists? Part 114
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Jul 02 - 06:52 PM

What if they had given up on South Africa, CS? A lot of people had to sacrifice their heads agains that brick wall, but it made a big difference in the end.

Subject: RE: BS: Who are the Terrorists? Part 114
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 01 Jul 02 - 07:02 PM

Thump! Ouch!! Ya got it yet?? Thump! Ouch!! Ya got it yet?? Thump! Ouch!! Ya got it yet?? Thump! Ouch!! Ya got it yet?? Thump! Ouch!! Ya got it yet?? Thump! Ouch!! Ya got it yet?? Thump! Ouch!! Ya got it yet??