Lyr Req: Yeller Gals - Doodle or Do Not?

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Yeller Gals - Doodle or Do Not?
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 08 Dec 23 - 05:33 AM

Brathwaite, Percy A. and Serena Brathwaite. Folk Songs of Guyana: Queh-Queh, Chanties and Plantation Themes. Self-published, 1967.

YELLA GAL [“Queh-Queh also sung as Chanty”]
Refrain:
Do leh me lone, Lulu, do leh me lone,
        Hurray, me yella gal, do leh me lone
Do leh me lone, Lulu, do leh me lone,
        Hurray, me yella gal, do leh me lone

Solo: Put me face pon Lulu face, Lulu faint away, oh
Chorus: Hurray, me yella gal, Lulu faint away

Solo: Ah put me han’ pon Lulu head, Lulu faint away, oh.
Chorus: Hurray me yella gal, Lulu faint away.

Solo: Ah put me han’ roun’ Lulu neck / An’ she faint away, oh
Chorus: “then Refrain, etc.”

Solo: Ah put me han’ roun’ Lulu waist, “etc.”
Chorus: “then Refrain, etc.”

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Yeller Gals - Doodle or Do Not?
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 08 Dec 23 - 05:25 AM

Guiana Sings, Delaware, OH: Cooperative Recreation Service, 1959. Based on collecting work in Guyana (British Guiana) by (Miss) Vesta Lowe.

YALLA GAL

Chorus:
Do leh me lone, Lulu, Do leh me lone,
Lorah me yalla gal, Do leh me lone,
Do leh me lone, Lulu, Do leh me lone,
Lorah me yalla gal, Do leh me lone,

Verse 1:
Put me face pon Lulu face, Lulu faint away O
Harrah, me yalla gal, do lone

Chorus

Verse 2:
Put me han’ round Lulu waist, Lulu faint away O
Harrah, me yalla gal, do lone

“This is a boat race song. The term ‘yalla’ is not used in any derogatory sense.”

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Yeller Gals - Doodle or Do Not?
From: Catamariner
Date: 17 Jan 21 - 06:56 PM

"Dou Dou" is Haitian Creole for "Little Darling" and it can be a way to address a woman but it is also sometimes a nickname for a man. I think, given that they are Yellow (Creole) Girls working at Madame Gashee's, the Haitian endearment is probably the origin of sailors addressing them as "Doodle." Great song, anyway, good stamping rhythm for a capstan shanty.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Yeller Gals - Doodle or Do Not?
From: GUEST,guest nigel
Date: 09 May 17 - 03:58 PM

I always thought the song referred to yellow girls in the context of WW1 British munition workers. They took on a yellow colour from the chemicals involved in the explosives. They were the first working group of women who were comparatively well paid and so had an unheard of degree of independence. The dangerous nature of their work also gave them a more carefree attitude to life. All of which earned them a racey reputation. I realise if this is true it makes the song quite recent when it was collected in 1914. Any thoughts?

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Yeller Gals - Doodle or Do Not?
From: GUEST,Lighter
Date: 15 May 16 - 07:57 AM

The chantey was obviously written by British sailors taken prisoner by the Americans during the Revolutionary War.

Addressed to "Yankee Doodle."

(Yeah, right.)

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Yeller Gals - Doodle or Do Not?
From: Snuffy
Date: 15 May 16 - 05:48 AM

That version seems to derive much of the plot from the Tapscott/Yellow Meal family of songs and shanties.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Yeller Gals - Doodle or Do Not?
From: GUEST,Ray (currently in Utah)
Date: 15 May 16 - 04:37 AM

Clearly a few versions of this song, the one I am familiar with given to me by Dan Ferris from Kikeel Ireland is,

Do-a let me go me have a go at gals,
Do-a let me go
Hey-ro me yellow gals
a-do-a let me go at her

John boy was a rover and he's bound for Caddo (Wilson County)
Hey-ro, me yellow gals, a-do-a let me have a go at ya
John boy was a rover and to sea he's bound to go
Hey-ro, me yellow gals, a-do-a let me have a go at ya before I go

As I walked down the dusty trail all on a summer morn
Hey-ro, me yellow gals, a-do-a let me have a go at ya
I met an pretty Irish girl all red hair' all bosom
Hey-ro, me yellow gals, a-do-a let me have a go at ya

"Good mornin' sea captain , sir!" "Good mornin' you," says he
Hey-ro, me yellow gals, a-do-a want a go at her
"Oh have ya got a packin' ship all for Americ-kay?"
Hey-ro, me yellow gals, a-do-a let me have a go at her

"I've got the Sarah Jane, and she's bound around the horn,
Hey-ro, me yellow gals, a-do-a let me have a go at ya
With five-and-twenty paddies and a thousand sacks of wheat"
Hey-ro, me yellow gals, a-do-a let me have a go at her

"Bad luck to Gaelic sailing men , bad luck to them I say
Hey-ro, me yellow gals, a-do-a let me have a go at her

They all got drunk, broke in me trunk, and stole me clothes away!"
Hey-ro, me yellow gals, a-do-a so they all took turns at her and smiling sailed away.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Yeller Gals - Doodle or Do Not?
From: GUEST,Gerry
Date: 15 May 16 - 03:12 AM

Well, I think everyone's missing the boat here. Dudu is a common Israeli diminutive for David, as in Dudu Fisher, who performed as Jean Valjean in the Broadway production of Les Miserables, see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dudu_Fisher. Clearly, the line is "Dudu, let me go," and the song must be of Israeli origin. Perhaps it refers to King David.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Yeller Gals - Doodle or Do Not?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 15 May 16 - 12:09 AM

A 'doodle', as is well known, is an absent-minded abstract sketch made on a handy bit of paper, like the cover of the phone book, while being kept on interminable hold for one's extension, becoz 'Your call is valuable to us; please continue to hold; your call will be answered some time in the 22nd C'...

& hence the verb for creating same...

So the 'yeller gal' is obviously a blonde tattooist, whom the singer is requesting to inscribe "let me go" on an appropriate portion of his anatomy...

Surely this covers all interpretive potentialities?

≈M≈

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Yeller Gals - Doodle or Do Not?
From: GUEST,Androclese
Date: 14 May 16 - 10:40 AM

Doodling with a gal be her yeller black or white, refers to what sailors always seek after months at sea . A common usage phrase in Britain's West Country in the 18th century, though I won't argue the point. So "doodle let me go " would appear to be a desire to get away from Madam Gushee's(Duchene's) establishment.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Yeller Gals - Doodle or Do Not?
From: GUEST,Lighter
Date: 24 Jun 11 - 09:24 AM

Except that that kind of "due to" (expected to, about to) is so modern I can't even find it in the online OED.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Yeller Gals - Doodle or Do Not?
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 23 Jun 11 - 11:32 PM

Cornish Maid--

Funny, if I sing with my northeastern slur (America), the phrase you've given, "due to let", sounds exactly the same.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Yeller Gals - Doodle or Do Not?
From: GUEST,Cornish Maid
Date: 23 Jun 11 - 01:43 PM

Sea shanty - sung by sailors. needs to heard sung in Cornwall or Devon by a local shanty man.
'Hurrah, me Yeller girl's due to let me go' (local inflection causes this expression to be pronounced with a south-western slur which slides into 'doodle let me go'

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Yeller Gals - Doodle or Do Not?
From: doc.tom
Date: 05 Sep 10 - 12:21 PM

And Short did that in Ranzo Ray too: - 'Don't you hear the paddles rodelling', to quote Sharp. "Mr. Short always sang rolling that way."
Tom

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Yeller Gals - Doodle or Do Not?
From: Lighter
Date: 05 Sep 10 - 11:08 AM

Somebody (Grainger?) observed that some of his elderly singers (who'd learned their style in the mid 19th Century) liked to insert a "d" before double l's: "roadling" for "rolling," for example).

"Doodle" could have resulted from "do let." But I'm not going to lose any sleep over ir.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Yeller Gals - Doodle or Do Not?
From: Lighter
Date: 05 Sep 10 - 11:04 AM

I made that point obliquely in 2009.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Yeller Gals - Doodle or Do Not?
From: Dead Horse
Date: 05 Sep 10 - 10:58 AM

Quote: Doc Tom "And just for the record, the text Short sang was the folk song Blow The Candle Out!"
Just before he snuffed it, eh? :-)

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Yeller Gals - Doodle or Do Not?
From: doc.tom
Date: 05 Sep 10 - 08:27 AM

I've just come accross this thread too!

Sharp & Terry both collected this shanty from John Short of Watchet. No other version as far as I can discover (and neither Sharp nor Terry had heard it elsewhere) until our beloved Stan published a version he claims from the Caribbean and Harding the... etc. He did that so many times, pardon my cinicism.

Sharp and Terry collected and published under the title 'Do Let Me Go' - and Short (who came from Watchet in Somereset, UK) sang doodle let me go - nobody who has any familiarity with the Bristol channel and local accents will have any suprise with the introduction of extraneous consonants! Like the three daughters of the Bristol merchant who were named Adal,Idle,and Evil.

And just for the record, the text Short sang was the folk song Blow The Candle Out!

Heigh Ho!

TomB

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Yeller Gals - Doodle or Do Not?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 05 Sep 10 - 05:38 AM

>>> Does any 'cat out there know which one is right?? <<< asked the OP 8 years ago.

No-one thruout this long thread seems to have made the obvious point that that is the wrong question ~~ indeed, an absurd and meaningless question. Can there really be anyone on Mudcat who doesn't know that, when talking of versions of any traditional song [or other traditional artefact],

concepts of any one of them being "right" JUST DO NOT APPLY.
???

~Michael~

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Yeller Gals - Doodle or Do Not?
From: Dead Horse
Date: 05 Sep 10 - 04:18 AM

So you're learning shanties from a Polish group?
Should be interesting :-)

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Yeller Gals - Doodle or Do Not?
From: Pistachio
Date: 04 Sep 10 - 08:42 AM

Very glad to have come across this as I've just read sleeve notes from a Polish Group 'Sasiedzi' and was about to offer criticism - but find that it's me who isn't well informed!
Thanks Mudcat.

Hazel

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Yeller Gals - Doodle or Do Not?
From: GUEST,Lighter
Date: 15 Mar 09 - 03:55 PM

Without an original sheet music version of the song, preferably copyrighted and credited to a named composer, it is simply impossible to answer the original question with certainty.

As is usually the case.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Yeller Gals - Doodle or Do Not?
From: Santa
Date: 15 Mar 09 - 12:34 PM

Discussing this thread with my wife, she asked "What about Yankee Doodle Dandy? The same doodle or another one?"

then she suggested "dou-dou'll let me go" (shortened form of will, in case it isn't clear.)

and moved on to the Bristolian "added l" after a vowel.

So there's three more lines of thought to consider/discard.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Yeller Gals - Doodle or Do Not?
From: Barry Finn
Date: 12 Mar 09 - 06:46 PM

Azizi, I am in full agreement with your views on this. Noting that all there is to go one is, as you say;
"That which can be observed is evidence, including first-hand sightings and written/oral statements. However, one must treat statements critically, as you point out. Most importantly, evidence must be taken in context, and that might be what determines "credibility."'
And I would also say that expolring "all" possibilities is in keeping with having an open mind & a better view, thus having a better "feel".
As far as the mishearing, misinterpretation, ajusting of words, phrases or meaning of lines in songs was a natural occurance (both by accident & on purpose, just as in the evolution in sailor's langauge) with the sailors & singers of shanties, "espically between 'white', 'black', 'southern costal', 'northern deep water', 'whaler' & 'flying fish sailor'. The culture of the seafarer was made up from the culture of the melting pot & their had to be cross pollination happening at every turn. It's nice to be able to put a finger on when this actually happens but becasue it's not 'documented doesn't mean it didn't take place, though that leaves us to speculate about the possibilities. IMHO, Hugill did much of this but statemnting where he seems to believe the orgins of many of his undocumented songs originated. But who better to speculte than himself. Well, when Roger Abrahams comes up with a new collection from a area that might be considered to be a new sub group of shanties, is there not some who'd be knowledgable enough to do the same as Stan and add their theories (I say onlt a theory)? I don't go about saying 'no' but would rather say it's a possibility & if it's a matter of a different 'splices' on the same line, so be it.

Barry

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Yeller Gals - Doodle or Do Not?
From: Azizi
Date: 12 Mar 09 - 12:16 PM

Gibb, thanks for your response.

I appreciate what you said, and I'll let my previous statements speak for themselves.

Best wishes,

Azizi

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Yeller Gals - Doodle or Do Not?
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 12 Mar 09 - 11:25 AM

Hi Azizi,
I promised not to say anything more about the squiggly-doodle--well, not specifically--so I'll just address your question.

Do you also think that exploring possibilities about old subjects is anathema, even when there is old and contemporary information that appears to suggest that the new way of thinking about something old might be valid, at least some of the time?

No, absolutely not.

You also asked:
[Gibb], I'm wondering what kind of evidence you would consider to be credible.

That which can be observed is evidence, including first-hand sightings and written/oral statements. However, one must treat statements critically, as you point out. Most importantly, evidence must be taken in context, and that might be what determines "credibility."

If Hugill didn't provide any documentation that the phrase "do do" or "doodle" was the same as or could be the same as the phrase "dou dou", and if no other White collector at that time noted that, are you saying that means that the phrase could not have meant the same thing as "dou dou"?

Quite simply, Hugill never says "do do." He says that his Bajan "friend," Harding, used both "do" and "doodle" indiscriminately. I know your question was originally addressed to Q, but my answer is that no, I'm not saying it could not have not meant "dou dou." I think it's very unlikely however, and I've already stated why.

Coming back to this,
Do you also think that exploring possibilities about old subjects is anathema, even when there is old and contemporary information that appears to suggest that the new way of thinking about something old might be valid, at least some of the time?

I think I'm pretty much in 100% agreement with your attitude. That should be clear from the fact that, as I said, I re-opened the thread to add a new possibility to the mix.

Like it or not, and you'll forgive me for saying this, but there is nothing "older" and "Whiter" (if we're labeling schools of thought ethnically) than the de-contextualized comparative etymology approach (hence my subtle jab at 19th century philology). It is a completely valid methodology (which I use often), but there is absolutely nothing new about it, even if its focus happens to be on non-White areas-- which in fact it very often was (being the method par excellence of Orientalists). That approach assumes that the utterance has a declarative "meaning," and that somehow its meaning can be separated from its context (i.e so as to be compared with other "units"). This "old White" methodology (which of course I mean totally ironically) works best to analyze other mainstream "old White" texts; sometimes it yields nothing when dealing with culturally different texts that make up say 50% of sea chanteys.   

The best method? A combination of all methods, no holds barred.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Yeller Gals - Doodle or Do Not?
From: Azizi
Date: 12 Mar 09 - 06:19 AM

Correction to my last post:

I also believe that Hugill's informants could been misinformed about those particular lyrics (meaning "do do" or "doodle") in that particular song (meaning "Yeller Gals").

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Yeller Gals - Doodle or Do Not?
From: Azizi
Date: 12 Mar 09 - 06:07 AM

Q, I have believed for some time that you are a fundamentalist who worships at the feet of a few long dead White collectors of Black [and non-Black] folkloric material. May those collectors rest in peace. And I mean no disrespect to them or to you.

And by the way, Q, I've learned a lot from you since you invited me to check out Mudcat almost five years ago. But-unlike you-I prefer to keep an open mind when I'm thinking about old subjects and about new (to me as well as well as really new) subjects.

**

...Azizi researching the etymology of "dou dou," I think mainly because she is secretly a 19th century German philologist
-Gibb

Gibb, that was in another life, not this one. :o)

So Gibb, I'm asking you the same question that I asked Q in my post dated 11 Mar 09 - 10:49 PM. Is your answer the same as his?

Do you also think that exploring possibilities about old subjects is anathema, even when there is old and contemporary information that appears to suggest that the new way of thinking about something old might be valid, at least some of the time?

As I wrote in my 11 Mar 09 - 04:40 PM post to this thread, I think that we may never really know what the phrase "do do" meant in this particular song or what it meant in other songs from those times. I will amend that sentence to "We may never really know what "do do" always meant or usually meant in that particular song and in other similar songs of that time.

I'm definitely not proselytizing that the phrase "dou dou" should always or even should sometimes replace the phrase "do do" or "do let" or the word "doodle" in those shanteys that were lucky enough to have been collected way back then and be available now for all of us to enjoy and to pontificate about their meanings.

I hold to my position that there is a possibility that these sailors who were Hugill's informants could have meant the phrase "dou dou" or those sailors could have misheard that phrase. I also believe that Hugill's informants could been misinformed about all of the lyrics to that song. Hugill's informants could also have been jivin Mr. Charley. But I'll leave that possibility aside.

That's all I'm sayin about this matter.

-Azizi,
who-in this life-had a Bajan maternal grandmother and a Trinidadian maternal grandfather (May they also rest in peace.)

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Yeller Gals - Doodle or Do Not?
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 12 Mar 09 - 01:47 AM

I'm not sure if anyone besides Austin P gets what I was saying, why I reopened this thread (in which many of the ideas in recent posts were already covered). So I'll try to state in brief one more time, then I'll shut up ;)

As I said before, I think "dou dou", "do do", or anything else we might imagine is misheard is a red herring. As Q is now iterating, there is no strong reason to think the "doodle" means anything besides "do" or "doodle." In fact, why would Hugill not get it if it was "dou dou," a term he was very familiar with?
"Oh once I met a dou dou fair, belong to Mobile Bay
Hooraw, me yeller gals, doodle let me go." There, he just said it 10 words before!

Incidentally, "doodle let" doesn't sound exactly like "do do let." The quality of the second is different, like in "yodel"...when yodeling....

...which is very similar to what I argue is happening:

"doodle let" = "do let" ((the alternate form given by Hugill (via Harding) and Sharp (via Short)) with a particular, optional, customary style of ornamentation inserted.

I'd given evidence of this above, by way of other examples of this occurrence, all in the same phonemic environment, along with reasoning from the textual evidence. The response was (sorry for the rough paraphrase):

--Tom saying "Try singing 'do, do let'" OK, I did. Now what? Waiting for the Zen moment...
--Barry quoting chanteys with the term "dou dou" -- proving only that such a thing as "dou dou" exists in the world...
--Azizi researching the etymology of "dou dou," I think mainly because she is secretly a 19th century German philologist...

I agree with Q that the doodle "fills out the line." Where I differ is that I'm suggesting it is a meaningful word ("do") combined with such ADDED baggage to fill out the line/rhythm/melisma.

Gibb

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Yeller Gals - Doodle or Do Not?
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 11 Mar 09 - 11:33 PM

All I said, in brief, is that if there is no evidence, there is no point in writing at length about a supposition.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Yeller Gals - Doodle or Do Not?
From: Barry Finn
Date: 11 Mar 09 - 11:23 PM

So far all that's been documented is "Doodle" &/or "Do not".

Q, I was not saying there was a connection (espically to "louLou"), only that if people want to speculate away from the orgins of it always being the nosensical (?) "doodle" or "Do not let" then "Duo Duo" seems like a closer jump than the rest of the "speculation". Mind you there no back's up on it ever being anything other that what's been written down. "Duo Duo" (not "Do Do") is just a good a "GUESS" as any.

There's a lot that Hugill doesn't suggest about that was collected in the BWI & other places in the Caribbean. Remember he published his Bible prior to Roger's collecting in BWI. Roger did dicuss his findings with Lomax & they conversed also about Lomax's collecting in the same waters but as far as I know Hugill & Abrahams did not (though I wouldn't be privy to any of that unless it was documented somewhere where I heaven't come across it which is entirely possible & if anyone knows I hope they'll straighten me out on) which is a shame because there's so much overlap that I'm sure much more would've come about out of their 'crossings'.

Barry

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Yeller Gals - Doodle or Do Not?
From: Azizi
Date: 11 Mar 09 - 10:49 PM

Q, I'm wondering what kind of evidence you would consider to be credible.

If Hugill didn't provide any documentation that the phrase "do do" or "doodle" was the same as or could be the same as the phrase "dou dou", and if no other White collector at that time noted that, are you saying that means that the phrase could not have meant the same thing as "dou dou"?

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Yeller Gals - Doodle or Do Not?
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 11 Mar 09 - 09:04 PM

I see no relation between do do, loulou, and doodle in the "Do let me go-Yeller Gels-Doodle Let me go" chantey and the Creole word dou dou. Nor does it, as far as I can see, have any relation to 'do do' in the Nevis Fête song referred to by Barry Finn; "St. Peter Down at Courland Bay" (Abrahams, pp. 29-31).

Hugill did not suggest any relationship, nor can I find any, thus I see little point in discussing a 'relationship' unless some evidence can be brought forward that one exists.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Yeller Gals - Doodle or Do Not?
From: Azizi
Date: 11 Mar 09 - 07:38 PM

Thanks for that information, and for your link to your video, Barry.

Good job!

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Yeller Gals - Doodle or Do Not?
From: Barry Finn
Date: 11 Mar 09 - 06:19 PM

Try this link, sorry Finn & Haddie

Barry

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Yeller Gals - Doodle or Do Not?
From: Barry Finn
Date: 11 Mar 09 - 06:18 PM

You can hear both of those songs at the Finn & Haddie web site.
Azizi, I think you have the CD "Fathom This" check the notes, I think they're in there. I'll have to peek.

Barry

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Yeller Gals - Doodle or Do Not?
From: Barry Finn
Date: 11 Mar 09 - 06:16 PM

Hi Azizi
Hugil does list Dou Dou in his Glosary

DuoDuo - A West Indian Creole word meaning "sweetheart".

"Roller Bowler (p. 260) or "Good Morning Ladies All" from which comes the line I quoted
"As I roved out one morning
away you roller bowler
I met a duo dou fair"

Hugill says "Another shanty which the expression 'high-rig-a-jig' is the capstan song "Roller Bowler" which appears to me to be (notice that he says "appears"-my comment) another of the Negro-Irish type of sailor work-song. I picked up my version out in Trinidad. Sharp's version, the only one in print until now, seems to be a Liverpool shanty although he collected it in Bristol, I think. Anyhow it is definitely a shanty that was sung aboard of the West Indian Sugar & Rum Traders, since it was well known by most of my West Indian shipmates".
Hugil has 3 versions of "Good Morning Ladies All" all from West Indian sources.

"Darling do do I'm going to St Peter's"
Darling do do I'm taking you with me"

This verse comes from Roger Abrahams "Deep The Water Shallow The Shore"
(Roger collected from the Islands of Nevis, Tabago & St. Vincent in the early 60's)
During the 'Fishermen's Fete', (on) St Peter's day June 29, each of the beach singers feels that he must make up a song for the visiting fishermen who come from all over the island. They commonly sing of the beauties of the fete, using a traditional tune bit introducing topical subjects & an appropriate chorus line. Here is a pattern, for instance, which was improvised upon by one of the singers the year before we lived in Plymouth.

So "duo dou" was still in the common vocabularly at the time.

Now I don't say that "dou dou" & "doodle" were interchangable or that "doodle" came from "dou dou" but an ear not accustom to the local slang such as a transient sailor,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,?????????

Barry

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Yeller Gals - Doodle or Do Not?
From: Azizi
Date: 11 Mar 09 - 04:40 PM

Q, are you saying that Hugill gave a definite meaning for the phrase "do do" as it was used in the chantey as given by Barry Finn in his 10 Mar 09 - 12:49 AM post:

"As I roved out one morning
away you roller bowler
I met a duo dou fair"

"Darling do do I'm going to St Peter's"
Darling do do I'm taking you with me"

-snip-

Or are you saying that Hugil said he was told that the phrases "do do, loulou, doodle" filled out the line", and were used "indescriminately" and never had any other meanings in any songs?

If Hugill said that "do do" never had any meaning but nonsense words to fill in the line because his Bajan informants told him this, I wonder if any of his informants were from the French speaking Eastern Caribbean islands, or if they were aware of the use of the term "dou dou" in those islangs (and elsewhere?).
Maybe his informanats did know this, but they were jivin him, to use a word from this current thread)

If Hugill gave the specific meaning for this phrase in this particular song, I'd appreciate it if you would post that quotation.

It seems to me that it's possible that "do do", "doodle" and other similar phrases could have been used to mean nothing in some songs, and could have been used to mean something specific in other songs.

I think that we may never really know what "do do" means in this particular song or in some other songs from those times.

Regardless of what the meaning of "do do" really is in this song, I'm glad to have learned about the meaning of the phrase "dou dou" as it is (and was?) used in some contemporary folk based stories from the Caribbean and as it is still used in nick-naming practices by French speaking Black (and by non-Black?} people.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Yeller Gals - Doodle or Do Not?
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 11 Mar 09 - 03:30 PM

The speculation here about doodle reminds me of the posts about musha whatever and rigadoo whatever in old English and Irish songs-all without foundation.

Hugill related this chantey to "Do Let Me Lone, Susan (and other names)" or "Hooraw, me Loulou Boys (Gels)," sung on both British and American ships.
Both he attributes to Negro chanteymen and suggests a Spanish-American origin; he had it from a Barbadian, but the rhythm resembles that of "a Trinidadian calypso."

The do do, loulou, doodle fill out the line, and were used "indescriminately."

"Do Let Me Lone..." has many verses Hugill called "unprintable," referring to female anatomy or the sexual practices of the 'gels'. It does not seem to have entered Mudcat; I will put Hugill's cleaned-up version in a new thread.

Also see "Doo Me Ama," in W. B. Whall, Sea Songs and Shanties, in which the meaningless refrain is:
Doo me ama,
Dinghy ama,
Doo me ama day.

(Polly-woddle doodle...)

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Yeller Gals - Doodle or Do Not?
From: Paul Burke
Date: 10 Mar 09 - 06:41 PM

I go with Gentile Annie back in '02. Do na' let me go makes sense to me.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Yeller Gals - Doodle or Do Not?
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 10 Mar 09 - 10:23 AM

Austin P, thanks you very much for the excellent reference! It articulates the idea much more clearly than I ever could. I like this sentence:

"It was as if the singers felt an urge to break down melisma into more straight forward syllabic form yet would not do so at the cost of destroying the curvature of the melodies, so they invented or inserted textual additives."

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Yeller Gals - Doodle or Do Not?
From: Azizi
Date: 10 Mar 09 - 08:08 AM

I should have noted that Senegal, West Africa is one of the French speaking African nations because of its colonization by the French.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Yeller Gals - Doodle or Do Not?
From: Azizi
Date: 10 Mar 09 - 08:06 AM

"Dou-Dou" (pronounced "do do" is an Eastern Caribbean word meaning "sweetheart". In the context of that line, the English wrod "fair" means "(physically) attractive". Thus, in my opinion, the line "I met a duo dou fair" means "I met an attractive beautiful (or handsome if the gender is male) sweetheart." And I believe that the line "darling do do" means "darling sweetheart"

See this book review that includes information about this term
(I think this review is interesting in its own right)

Maureen Warner-Lewis
Launch of Curdella Forbes' A Permanent Freedom, Leeds: Peepal Tree Press, 2008, 195 pp.
The Undercroft, University of the West Indies, Mona
9th February 2009

..."The Jamaican grandmother of the technically accomplished story called "Say", speaks Jamaican Creole, but interlards it with the Eastern Caribbean word 'dou-dou' meaning 'sweetheart'. Her grand-daughter's father is from St. Lucia."

-snip-

http://dictionary.sensagent.com/doudou/fr-fr/ indicates that "dou dou" is a French term that means "ma cherie":

"definitions Magnifique,doudou ourson, de marque Comptine (1.0 EUR)
Commercial use of this term

doudou (n.f.)1.(familier)ma chérie, aux Antilles."

-snip-

And since this is a folk music forum, see this use of the term
"Dou Dou" as an add-on to a person's name (perhaps like "Honeyman" or "Honeyboy")

Dou Dou N'Diaye M'Bengue
Thiato Thiate
Dunya Records (www.felmay.it)

There is no doubting the origins of Dou Dou N'Diaye M'Bengue from the moment he begins to sing. Son of griot Bala Nar M'Bengue, and born in Dakar, this release is a collection of tracks by a singer steeped in the Senegalese traditions that have now become so familiar to us through the music of superstars Baaba Maal and Youssou N'Dour. Unlike a lot of his predecessors, Dou Dou here presents his songs and his voice in a simple, understated style, with minimal arrangement, accompaniment and instrumentation. He gives us a rare glimpse of what an authentic, village performance might sound like.

The outstanding song on the album, for me, is the title track, "Thiato Thiate". Extremely simple, with xalam, percussion and an underlying keyboard providing chordal support, it is immensely beautiful. The singing is simultaneously powerful and subtle, with the repetition weaving a kind of magic over the listener. There is hardly a better vehicle for Dou Dou's voice, and the sincerity and sensibility which he brings to a song such as this is intensely moving"...

http://www.rootsworld.com/reviews/mbengue.shtml

-snip-

I should also note Google hits also suggest that "Dou Dou" is a Chinese name or nickname, but that's a whole 'nuther etymology than the Caribbean use of the French term "dou dou".

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Yeller Gals - Doodle or Do Not?
From: Barry Finn
Date: 10 Mar 09 - 12:49 AM

"As I roved out one morning
away you roller bowler
I met a duo dou fair"

"Darling do do I'm going to St Peter's"
Darling do do I'm taking you with me"

Barry

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Yeller Gals - Doodle or Do Not?
From: Austin P
Date: 09 Mar 09 - 09:25 PM

Gibb Sahib could be right.

There is a tradition in English singing of inserting extra 'iddles' in words a.k.a. Joseph Taylor - 'a soft adenoidal -de- inserted'. See notes here

This could possibly be the origin ...

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Yeller Gals - Doodle or Do Not?
From: GUEST,Gerry
Date: 09 Mar 09 - 06:33 PM

There was a mention above of the Bob Fox & Stu Luckley recording on vinyl. A few years ago this came out on CD. I think it's a terrific album.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Yeller Gals - Doodle or Do Not?
From: curmudgeon
Date: 09 Mar 09 - 05:55 PM

Try singing it as "do, do let me go"

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Yeller Gals - Doodle or Do Not?
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 09 Mar 09 - 05:51 PM

Hi Tom,
"Do, do let," however much it may be pronounced like what is being rendered (roughly) "doodle", is not the same thing as it. We already know that it was sung as something like "doodle..." (however you want to spell it). I see the question as one of semantics, i.e. whether this "doodle" represents (and is a mis-hearing of) some meaningful phrase, like "do, do", "dou dou," "do not," etc.

What I am arguing is that "doodle" is an attempt to write a nonsense vocable / ornament / whatever, based on a regular pattern of adding /d/ before /l/ in certain contexts (e.g. after a vowel, on a weak beat).

It just so happens that unlike the words "haul" (HAU-D-L) and "roll" (RO-D-L), "do let" (DO-D-LET) ends of having two Ds in it-- hence the possibility of a red herring: "do, do" /"dou dou."

Hey, it's just an idea. It's likely that some words, that we don't really get the meaning of in folk songs, are merely transformations according to a similar process (which is why attempts to define them in the context of the lyrics usually ends up inconclusive).

Gibb

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Yeller Gals - Doodle or Do Not?
From: curmudgeon
Date: 09 Mar 09 - 05:20 PM

"This seems to be what happened to "do" -- or rather, to "do let" = do-d-let."

As Linn said earlier; "Do,do let me go."

Sometimes we have to relate what we think we hear to the English language - Tom

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Yeller Gals - Doodle or Do Not?
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 09 Mar 09 - 05:05 PM

My 2 cents on "doodle" in this chantey:

Stan Hugill notes an "old style of singing" where a /d/ was inserted before an /l/ in a word (pg 273 of the 1994 edition of SHANTIES FROM THE SEVEN SEAS). He cites two sources, one which renders "haul" as "haudle" (more like /haudul/) and one that turns "rolling" into "rodling."
(I messed around with this idea on a rendition I recorded )

This seems to be what happened to "do" -- or rather, to "do let" = do-d-let. The extra syllable, /d/, fits nicely to the rhythm and change to a new pitch that it coincides with.

So, in my opinion, there can be no "do not," "do tha," etc., nor do we need to search for an etymology of a word "doodle." It is just "do," transformed by a singing style/ornament.

Gibb