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Subject: The Flower of Scotland From: RonU Date: 11 May 98 - 11:51 PM The Flower of Scotland by Roy Williamson, such a beautiful tune. I'm sure there are interesting stories regarding the use of the song (such as by the Scotland MJ). |
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Subject: RE: The Flower of Scotland From: RonU Date: 12 May 98 - 01:27 PM I hope someone can increase my knowledge about this tune, the writer, the lyrics. |
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Subject: RE: The Flower of Scotland From: Sandro Date: 12 May 98 - 05:20 PM It is on the Corries in Concert Album. A ripping rendition. |
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Subject: RE: The Flower of Scotland From: Art Thieme Date: 13 May 98 - 04:15 PM The national flower here in the US is now the concrete cloverleaf! |
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Subject: RE: The Flower of Scotland From: John Nolan Date: 13 May 98 - 10:05 PM The most moving renditions of this song, for me at least, have always been when it is sung by 50,000+ Scottish football supporters on the terraces of Hampden Park. The worst renditions are when it is played through the tinny loudspeaker systems of Scottish National Party organisers combing the streets in vans on election day. Some would like F.O.S. to be Scotland's national anthem - others, particularly socialists, would prefer Hamish Henderson's Freedom Come All Ye. Almost everyone is agreed that Scotland The Brave stinks as an anthem. |
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Subject: RE: The Flower of Scotland From: RonU Date: 14 May 98 - 12:08 AM I'm looking to purchase "The Corries In Concert" here in the colonies but, so far, no one has a copy in stock. I will be happy to find it in any format though would prefer tape cassette. I'm sure it will turn up if I keep searching. Art, the tranquility of my small hometown is to be shattered by a Super Wal-Mart, and last week's newpaper said a ten-screen movie theatre will be built nearby. I guess we'll be needing a national flower soon to handle all the outlanders. |
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Subject: RE: The Flower of Scotland From: GUEST,Steve Date: 23 Sep 04 - 10:31 AM Can anyone conclusively clarify if The Flower of Scotland is about William Wallace or Robert the Bruce? Have been researching as I am writing a little about the subject but have read conflicting views. Cheers |
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Subject: RE: The Flower of Scotland From: John MacKenzie Date: 23 Sep 04 - 11:00 AM The Battle of Flodden Field was fought under James IV of Scotland on 9th September 1513. The words of the poem have been attributed to Lady Nairne, but were actually written by Jane {Jean} Elliot. I don't know who wrote the tune, but it certainly sends a shiver down my spine, when played on the pipes. Giok |
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Subject: RE: The Flower of Scotland From: Georgiansilver Date: 23 Sep 04 - 11:03 AM Flower of Scotland is very much an anti-English song and there are people who use it to that effect unfortunately...I went to a friends daughters wedding to a Scot, where it almost provoked an incident. Ah well, all turned out well in the end and the couple are still happily married. Best wishes. |
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Subject: RE: The Flower of Scotland From: John MacKenzie Date: 23 Sep 04 - 11:54 AM The battle in Flower of Scotland must be Bannockburn, where the Scots were lead by Robert the Bruce, as it mentions 'proud Edward's army' This was one of the few we won, so we tend to celebrate it a bit. McGonigle's Take Giok |
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Subject: RE: The Flower of Scotland From: Abby Sale Date: 23 Sep 04 - 11:54 AM Whoa, buck. Different Flower. The original thread & I assume GuestSteve's question is re "The Flower of Scotland," by Roy Williamson. See the two links above. Yes, I'm fairly confident that it is re Wallace defeating Edward's I army (Ed wasn't there) a few years earlier on Sept. 11, 1297 at Stirling. 'Bout the only Ed this could be about except my friend Ed who invaded Scotland to sing some folk songs four years ago. He didn't exactly have an army, just a few friends. The ansewers relate to "Floo'ers of the Forest" re Flodden. That was also a Fine Flower, though and I sang that one just this week to commemorate. |
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Subject: RE: The Flower of Scotland From: GUEST,Mingulay Date: 23 Sep 04 - 12:00 PM The Flour of Scotland is McDougalls. |
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Subject: RE: The Flower of Scotland From: John MacKenzie Date: 23 Sep 04 - 12:35 PM Please Mingulay, please resist this urge for rotten puns. We already have lorries from a Scottish flour company driving round with the legend 'The flour of Scotland' written on their cabs. I can't remember their name, but it isn't MacDougalls. Might be Chancelot Mills! Certainly incurs the cringe factor in me. Giok |
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Subject: RE: The Flower of Scotland From: kendall Date: 23 Sep 04 - 12:54 PM When I did my tour of Scotland back in 1990, I led a room full of local singers at the Black Bitch in Linlithgow. It was to be my last song for that night and there wasn't a dry eye in the house. |
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Subject: RE: The Flower of Scotland From: Rabbi-Sol Date: 23 Sep 04 - 02:39 PM I have this song by The WolfeTones. It is track #8 on their album "A Sense Of Freedom" SOL ZELLER |
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Subject: RE: The Flower of Scotland From: GUEST,Mingulay Date: 24 Sep 04 - 06:35 AM Sorry Giok, sometimes the urge overcomes me. |
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Subject: RE: The Flower of Scotland From: Dita Date: 24 Sep 04 - 07:39 AM Not one of my favourites, probably due to the brest bashing, I'm one of the Freedom come all ye, or A man's a man brigade. The Corries recorded this a number of times, (probably every time they changed record label). The very first recording, mid sixties on Fontana, was a lot slower, a lament like take, far different from it's later ranting style. On that recording Roy played some kind of long necked mandolin style instrument, (?bazooki, ?spelling). The whole thing was Incredible String Band like. The Corries recorded a number of ISB member Robin Williamson's (no relation) songs at this time, including October Song. Georgiansilver, while I also am uncomfortable with the anti sentiments of this song, I am even more upset when someone sings, God save the King/Queen. This is an anti Scots song from the Jacobite Rebellion, and well into the 1960s was still printed and sung by some, with the verse urging God to lay the vile Scots low and confound their politics. A number of the Corries albums have been rereleased on CD as twofers The Fonatna, EMI and their own Dara labels. They certainly turn up on ebay uk from time to time. Should be able to get them somewhere online. Dita. |
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Subject: RE: The Flower of Scotland From: GUEST,Mingulay Date: 24 Sep 04 - 09:05 AM It seems to me no wonder that Flower of Scotland contains anti English sentiments. When you consider what we have done to the country and its citizens over the years just so that some Surrey stockbroker can shoot at deer, those sentiments are quite mild. It also strikes me as rather odd that a bunch of German aristo's should latch so avidly on to things Scottish given the words of their recently adopted country's anthem snd the chronological closeness of the events referred to. However, none of this detracts from the song for me and,in fact, I would much rather sing F of S than God Save the Queen. |
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Subject: RE: The Flower of Scotland From: Georgiansilver Date: 24 Sep 04 - 09:33 AM I have a Corries live LP which ends with one of them saying "It is traditional to sing the National Anthem when ending a performance.....but we'll sing you another song anyway" and they sing F of S...much to the pleasure of the Scottish audience. Best wishes. |
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Subject: RE: The Flower of Scotland From: GUEST Date: 24 Sep 04 - 10:55 AM FoS is a great song. A mans A man isn't! This is of course why FoS wins hands down in the Scottish National Anthem stakes. Plus, like any good anthem, most people would be hard pressed to sing more than the first verse of FoS. |
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Subject: RE: The Flower of Scotland From: kendall Date: 24 Sep 04 - 02:59 PM It's a bit militant, but I also like SHEHALLION by Gordon Menzies of the duo, GABERLUNZIE. While painting the walls today it kept going through my mind. |
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Subject: RE: The Flower of Scotland From: Fliss Date: 24 Sep 04 - 06:16 PM http://www.corries.com/ Corries site is run by Gavin Browne, son of Ronnie Browne Site sells all their CDS and song books etc fliss |
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Subject: RE: The Flower of Scotland From: GUEST,Boab Date: 25 Sep 04 - 02:41 AM Just a wee remark--for the benefit of all "anti-nationalists" and those who see "anti-Englishness " in the Flower--try a check on the song which has been long accepted as the National anthem of Scotland---"Scots Wha Hae" by Robert Burns.Now THERE is anti-English sentiment! Not often criticised for it though.... |
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Subject: RE: The Flower of Scotland From: GUEST Date: 05 Dec 04 - 03:36 PM I need free sheet music...Can any1 suggest a link. |
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Subject: RE: The Flower of Scotland From: masato sakurai Date: 05 Dec 04 - 08:19 PM Try Google (Images) Search: flower of scotland. |
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Subject: RE: The Flower of Scotland From: open mike Date: 13 Jan 09 - 10:13 PM try here http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://breizhpartitions.free.fr/tf.php/312_Flower_of_Scotland.gif&imgrefurl=http://breizhpartitions.free.fr/en/download_score.php/160_Flower_of_Scotland&usg=__C045tbpz5EaGECMomBXVFftdtik=&h=438&w=813&sz=11&hl=en&start=2&tbnid=htngsxbM7uKfRM:&tbnh=78&tbnw=144&prev=/images%3Fq%3D%2522flower%2Bof%2Bscotland%2522%26hl%3Den%26sa%3DG |
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Subject: RE: The Flower of Scotland From: Bryn Pugh Date: 14 Jan 09 - 04:47 AM Yes, but do you 'google' this or knit it ? |
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Subject: RE: The Flower of Scotland From: GUEST,goatfell Date: 14 Jan 09 - 07:44 AM I got this from a website https://www.theballadeers.com/scots/cor_1990_flower.htm (sleeve notes from the Flower of Scotland album: We were resting between shots of a film I was making with The Corries, when Roy Williamson asked if I'd like to hear his new song Needing no answer to his question he launched the words into the clear air. The song was 'Flower Of Scotland'. The short tune had a fine dirl to it with rising skirls and cadences but also a hint of lamentation and bray of defiance. It was so authentically rooted in Scots tradition that it could have sprung from no other folk culture in the world. We filmed him singing it there and then. Some strange alchemy makes songs popular. As least a dozen ballads, turfed out of one musical or another, went on to become international standards, hymns, pub songs, music hall ditties, sea shanties however unlikely their provenance, they're all part of our musical heritage. If we knew what the magic was we'd all make a million. Sadly, Roy Wiiliamson died in August 1990. Over the years, as The Corries sang 'Flower Of Scotland at folk clubs and on national concert tours, it became their rallying cry and by that powerful osmosis of folk culture, caught the fancy of a nation looking for an anthem. By the time Roy's song started echoing round the football terraces of the world, whose choristers found in it something that their hearts desired, who rejoiced in the lyric's fervent patriotism. 'Flower Of Scotland' had become a phenomenon. It's rendering at Murrayfield, led lustily by every member of the 1990 Grand Slam Squad, probably put the Scots into the game against the English with phantom points already on the scoreboard! I was involved with The Comes from their professional beginnings in many broadcasting and theatrical adventures. It has been too easy over the years to dismiss their stage and television performances as rabble-rousing singsong. They certainly knew how to please the punters, yet every concert and recording session plucked other strings. Familiar ballads set in unfamiliar time, strange tuning on even stranger instruments, new melodies and harmonies seemingly woven into the web of musical antiquity. It was this musicianship, this sensitivity to the folk idiom, Roy's disciplined invention and craft coupled with Ronnie Brownes sweet lyric tenor voice and ebullient personality that set The Corries apart. This celebration of The Conies' contribution to Scottish Folk music is founded on the fame and popularity of 'Flower Of Scotland' but represents the broad sweep of their repertoire and instrumentation. There is a Jacobite song, of course, there are traditionally romantic ballads, a heightened emphasis of contemporary comedy, several sea shanties, a whiff of Scottish nationalism, a sleepy lullaby and Ronnie's powerful rendering of Judy Small's modem anti-war song 'Mothers, Daughters, Wives'. The moods swing from stirring march tempo to soulful pathos, from rousing polemic to social comment with a sting in its tail, from lovelorn longing to Flower Of Scotland's own compulsive mixture of lament and swagger. Throughout, as usual, the response of an audience is often there to remind you how much you should be enjoying yourself. W. Gordon Smith Edinburgh August 1990 |
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Subject: RE: The Flower of Scotland From: maple_leaf_boy Date: 02 Aug 10 - 01:47 PM I taught myself this tune on the pipes. I know the Gaelic lyrics for it, but I've been searching for a recording of someone singing it in Gaelic. Does anyone know who sings it, on youtube? Thanks. |
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Subject: RE: The Flower of Scotland From: Jack Campin Date: 02 Aug 10 - 02:16 PM You can find it on the web in Klingon, will that do? It was so authentically rooted in Scots tradition that it could have sprung from no other folk culture in the world. The tune is a variant of the Chorus of the Hebrew Slaves from Verdi's "Nabucco". It's hard to credit W. Gordon Smith's arselicking over this one when he'd written a much better song himself, "Come by the Hills". |
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Subject: RE: The Flower of Scotland From: BobKnight Date: 02 Aug 10 - 08:01 PM This song gets a bad name as being anti-English - it's NOT. It's pro-Scottish. It is most definitly about the battle of Bannockburn, which took place in 1314. Edward the Second came across the border with a huge English army, and was met by Robert The Bruce and the Scottish army, just outside the town of Stirling. The ground was very boggy, which didn't suit the English with their heavy horses. The Scots were outnumbers 3-4 to one, but because of the ground being so well chosen, the English couldn't bring the entire mass of their army to bear against the Scots. The Scots won, and routed the English. The victory finally re-established Scots independence, although it was quite a few years before the English acknowleged the fact. The meaning of the song is that these men were the flower of Scotland, and established Scottish independence, and as the lyrics say, "When will we see their like again?" It's disliked by the Unionist parties because of that message, so they try to piss on it, but the people of Scotland, generally speaking, love it. |
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Subject: RE: The Flower of Scotland From: GUEST,ActiusAquila Date: 11 Feb 19 - 07:32 PM There's several websites out there that seem to say that while Roy wrote the lyrics to "Flower of Scotland", someone named Peter Dodds McCormick was the song's composer, and that the melody actually existed since 1879 or so. I however can't find a single song that McCormick wrote that sounds like Flower of Scotland and it's often said that Roy wrote AND composed the song. But McCormick WAS a Scot and he did compose Australia's national anthem- not that it sounds like Flower of Scotland, though. Also, he apparently wrote a few Scottish folk songs and if Roy knew about his music I wouldn't be surprised. Can any mudcatters verify/ deny that Roy composed Flower of Scotland? Also, if he didn't write the music (the Corries apparently did not write music, according to Ronnie), what did McCormick call the melody? I can't find anything on the internet and I like to believe that Roy did the composing. |
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Subject: RE: The Flower of Scotland From: goatfell Date: 12 Feb 19 - 05:22 AM Freedom come all ye is about a reply to the Harold McMillian speech about South Africa and the winds of change and has nothing to with Scotland |
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Subject: RE: The Flower of Scotland From: GUEST,kenny Date: 12 Feb 19 - 06:36 AM I have an original copy of the commercially sold sheet music for "Flower Of Scotland" / "The Roses Of Prince Charlie" - I'm looking at it right now. "The Flower Of Scotland" Words AND MUSIC* : Roy Williamson. * [ my emphasis ] "The Roses Of Prince Charlie" : Author : R.G. Browne - Composer : R.G. Browne Th Corries certainly did compose music. I think possibly what Ronnie meant was that they maybe did not "write" music using staff notation - "the dots". |
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Subject: RE: The Flower of Scotland From: GUEST,Alan Date: 12 Feb 19 - 07:49 AM I can now see this information on McCormick several sites. Like Chinese whispers a viral piece with no source and no explanation of what the alleged earlier work is based on. If it is a derivation all fine, at least name they should name the source and alleged tune. Otherwise I find it extraordinary that people keep having to come up with earlier derivations of works, and can't accept that songwriters come up with an original popular tune and lyrics, or sometimes both separately, without it being directly taken from an earlier source. Someone has to have written a tune in the first place. If someone can name the alleged work fine, but otherwise these sites stating this about McCormick, are guilty of slurring the memory of a writer (though I don't actually like the words of 'Flower of Scotland', but you can't fault it for being an 'earworm' melody!) |
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Subject: RE: The Flower of Scotland From: GUEST,Alan Date: 12 Feb 19 - 07:51 AM Sorry, about the gibberish. Reading back, my words don't quite make sense.. but you'll get the gist |
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Subject: RE: The Flower of Scotland From: Dave Hanson Date: 12 Feb 19 - 09:57 AM Bob Knight, it is anti English, Dick Gaughan mentioned this many years ago when Flower Of Scotland was mooted as a possible Scottish National Anthem, he said it was wouldn't be a good choice because of it's anti English and negative sentiments. It is a fine song nonetheless. Dave H |
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Subject: RE: The Flower of Scotland From: GUEST,kenny Date: 12 Feb 19 - 10:09 AM That's Dick Gaughan's opinion, not worth any more than Bob's as far as I'm concerned. As far as I know, Roy Williamson never intended it to be anti-English. |
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Subject: RE: The Flower of Scotland From: GUEST Date: 12 Feb 19 - 10:57 AM I am sure Roy did not intend it to be anti-English. Nevertheless, it celebrates and sentimentalises (“wee bit hill and glen”) a long-ago military victory against England. Many of us pro-Indy Scots are very uncomfortable with that focus, and would rather seek songs that celebrate Scotland in its own right and its traditions of internationalism. It’s quite right to say that The Freedom Come-All-Ye was a response to Macmillan’s Winds of Change speech, but it is also thoroughly - on every line - about Scotland and about Scotland coming to terms with its past and finding a new place in a post-imperial world. |
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Subject: RE: The Flower of Scotland From: GUEST,Dave D Date: 12 Feb 19 - 10:58 AM Oops that last post was me |
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Subject: RE: The Flower of Scotland From: GUEST,kenny Date: 12 Feb 19 - 12:03 PM Nothing you've written there that I'd disagree with, Dave. |
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Subject: RE: The Flower of Scotland From: Dave Hanson Date: 12 Feb 19 - 02:54 PM Don't get wrong I still think it's a great song. Dave H |
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Subject: RE: The Flower of Scotland From: GUEST,Miranda Date: 13 Feb 19 - 09:46 AM Yeah I love Flower of Scotland too; it's the kind of song that makes your hair stand on end. As an anthem it's supposed to be a "this is Scotland, hear us roar" kind of song and it's great at doing that, especially when Ronnie Browne belts it out, but some people don't want it to be and I'm still not to sure why. So is it a lament? Is it a hymn? Is it anti-English? Anyhow, bringing this up because it's still not Scotland's anthem and I have no idea why not. Maybe it could be like Sweden where they agree that "Du Gamla Du Fria" shouldn't be an anthem by law and it's better if it were an anthem by tradition but why not just make Flower of Scotland the anthem already? (I'm sorry if this is a bit of a strange question, I'm not from the UK.) |
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Subject: RE: The Flower of Scotland From: GUEST,Allan Conn Date: 13 Feb 19 - 09:53 AM Miranda it is Scotland's anthem for most things. It is played before both football and rugby matches. The Commonwealth Games uses Scotland The Brave but that is more the exception. |
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Subject: RE: The Flower of Scotland From: GUEST,ActiusAquila Date: 13 Feb 19 - 09:55 AM I recall reading that it was Roy's personal composition and that he hadn't actually wanted to perform it until Ronnie asked him to, but I've forgotten where that was from. Anyway, the Corries were always pro-independence, and they obviously did a lot of the '45 songs- those are almost always anti English (but they are very, very catchy, just look at "Killiecrankie"). Ronnie was in an interview saying that Roy had been trying to antiquate the Flower of Scotland melody to make it sound more like their usual Jacobite repertoire, so if the lyrics were also very Jacobite-ish- aka anti-English- it's not actually surprising. Perhaps Roy half-accidentally-intended to make it anti English? He wanted the song to sound folkish, after all. |
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Subject: RE: The Flower of Scotland From: GUEST,Allan Conn Date: 13 Feb 19 - 12:59 PM I wouldn't say that Jacobite songs are almost always anti-English! Anti Hanovarian yes but that is a different thing. The example you give "Killiecrankie" isn't even not anti-English - it isn't even pro-Jacobite. It is purely descriptive. Lots of other Jacobite songs or supposed Jacobite songs or Jacobite period songs don't or hardly mention "the English" for instance Bonnie Dundee, Sound The Pibroch, Skye Boat Song, Highland Widow's Lament, Ye Jacobites By Name, Cam ye o'er Frae France, etc etc Yes there are some old Scottish songs that refer to conflict with England but that is because that is our history. You can't white wash it. Likewise even FOS is clear the conflict is in the past and should remain in the past. |
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Subject: RE: The Flower of Scotland From: GUEST,DTM Date: 13 Feb 19 - 02:09 PM Re. FoS being anti English. Just for the record, who was invading who? ;-) |
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Subject: RE: The Flower of Scotland From: Dave Hanson Date: 13 Feb 19 - 02:37 PM No one, it's a recently written song. Dave H |
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Subject: RE: The Flower of Scotland From: Tattie Bogle Date: 13 Feb 19 - 04:50 PM It didn't sound anti-English in its original form IMHO: more gentle and reflective, I thought. It has become more martial-sounding in its later reincarnations at big sporting events, perhaps, although you can still sit side by side with the other side's supporters at England v Scotland rugby internationals without anyone getting pugilistic over it. |
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Subject: RE: The Flower of Scotland From: GUEST,Allan Conn Date: 13 Feb 19 - 06:48 PM My better half, who hails from south of the border, once said to me that it shouldn't be sung at the rugby etc because it would offend the Queen and Princess Anne etc. It hadn't ever struck her that they are descended from Robert the Bruce who is celebrated in the song ?? |
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Subject: RE: The Flower of Scotland From: GUEST,Miranda Date: 13 Feb 19 - 09:05 PM If Scotland is a part of the UK, and the Queen is ruler of the UK, then how would it offend them exactly? Is there a larger preference towards England? Also I'm quite sure Edward II (Proud Edward) is related to Elizabeth as well. |
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Subject: RE: The Flower of Scotland From: GUEST,Allan Conn Date: 14 Feb 19 - 02:41 AM Well my point was that it of course wouldn't offend them. Not only are they descended from Bruce through James VI who became King of England too but as you say they are British rulers so why would singing about one of the national heroes of one part of Britain offend them. Re the Edward II yes of course there is a connection there too. I wasn't suggesting otherwise. The point was my better half only considered the connection between the present royal family and the English royal line. She didn't even know at the time that the Queen was dsecended from Bruce through the Scottish royal line. A very anglo-centric view on things which 30 odd years of living with me has mostly eradicated :-) I had another friend at our local club who said something the same as Actius Aquila. Basically that Scottish folk songs are mostly about hating the English etc etc etc. Fine saying that but when I asked him to list such songs it then becomes much harder. I produced the wee book 100 Great Scottish Songs produced by Soodlum with many of the better known Scottish folk songs and from that only two songs could be described as being about specifically conflict with the English. One is 'Scots Wha Hae' basically the Burns poem which is supposedly Bruce addressing his troops before Bannockburn. So it is about fighting the invader but the idea that you can't have a song about one of the defining moments of Scottish history is plainly absurd. The other is the song "Haughs of Cromdale" which introduces "the English" into something they weren't actually directly involved in. So yes that is one song which could be described as putting the English in as adversaries when they weren't historically - but that is one song out of 100 in total. I am not saying there are no other songs about fighting the English or in some way having a go at the English but the truth is that they are more conspicuous by their absence rather than their presence in the overall number of songs. And it would take someone of heightened paranoia to imagine every song dealing with historical conflict with the English is an anti-English song. For instance the Lammas-Tide is basically just the first few verses of the Battle Of Otterburn. Yes it deals with the subject of Scots fighting the English but it doesn't actually slag off or diss the English. It is simply a narrative of events as told according to the ballad. That isn't anti anything - it is only telling a story. And I have yet to understand why Killiecrankie was used as an example by the other poster. There is absolutely nothing anti-English about it and doesn't even mention the English or anything about England. Killiecrankie was a battle between Scottish Jacobites and the Scottish gvt army. The narrator in the song is a Scottish gvt soldier who has just been at the battle. He meets another soldier who wasn't at the battle and he tells him about the battle and how awful it was. It honestly takes a bit of a twisted turn of logic to suggest that is anti-English in any way! |
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Subject: RE: The Flower of Scotland From: GUEST Date: 14 Feb 19 - 05:09 AM "And I have yet to understand why Killiecrankie was used as an example by the other poster". In a word, ignorance. |
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Subject: RE: The Flower of Scotland From: GUEST,Dave D Date: 14 Feb 19 - 06:17 AM Always loved the gallows humour of Killiecrankie:
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Subject: RE: The Flower of Scotland From: Tattie Bogle Date: 14 Feb 19 - 06:55 AM To answer Miranda in short and gloss over reams of history, before 1707, England and Scotland were separate countries: and there are plenty of people hoping that they will be again! |
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Subject: RE: The Flower of Scotland From: GUEST,Observer Date: 14 Feb 19 - 08:02 AM Both "Lammas Tide" and "Lock the Door Lariston" are border ballads about Border raids in which neither the politics or national agendas of the Monarchs and Courts of either kingdom (Scotland or England) featured. The thread and ethics of loyalty along the Anglo-Scottish border between 1289 and 1653 ran family first, friends and allies second, King and Country came way, way down the pecking order, if it ever featured at all. |
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Subject: RE: The Flower of Scotland From: GUEST,ActiusAquila Date: 14 Feb 19 - 10:50 AM I used "Killiecrankie" as an example of how catchy Jacobite songs usually are. It wasn't meant to be an example of anti-Englishness. I guess I wasn't clear enough, and in that case, I apologize. Still, though lots of Jacobite songs are not directly anti-English, indirectly, in my honest opinion (you may disagree), they are. Allan mentioned "Sound the Pibroch", which if you think about it is a call to arms- against the English. It's evocative and a beautiful song, of course, but you do start to see ways in which songs may be anti-English when you apply some thought. Allan also mentioned the "The Skye Boat Song" and (the original version) has the line "baffled our foes"- if you ask me "foes" isn't very neutral a term at all. It's not downright offensive, sure, but it'd probably rankle a few people. I'm sure quite a few more songs are like that too (feel free to disagree and say I'm reading between the lines too much). The thing about Jacobite songs is that several of them are rooted in Scots vs English battles. Whenever that sort of thing comes up, though the song may not mention it, you sort of understand (if you know a tad bit of history) that part of the song's underlying themes are about a) Scots fighting the English, which I think doesn't have very positive connotations, b) Crushing the English (Haughs of Cromdale, Johnny Cope, Flower of Scotland, to a certain extent), or c) Scottish calls to arms against the English. It's the historical context that tends to bring about the Anti-Englishness in Jacobite songs (once again- my opinion), and not the lyrics. You don't have to explicitly say "the English" to get anti-Englishness in something. But Jacobite songs aside, I think FoS as Roy sang it wasn't problematic. I agree with Tattie, it just sounds gentle and reflective when Roy does it. When Ronnie and the crowd sing it of course it's going to sound martial (and to be honest, there IS a match to play, there's a pipe playing, and Ronnie is usually very... vocally agressive when it comes to getting the crowd to sing louder). The anti-Englishness of FoS really depends on how you sing it. |
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Subject: RE: The Flower of Scotland From: GUEST,Allan Conn Date: 14 Feb 19 - 12:48 PM You certainly are reading far too much into it - perhaps from not fully knowing what the Jacobite Wars were actually about. They were not England v Scotland. They were Jacobite v Hanovarian. Hence in the Skye Boat Song it is absurd to say that the word "foe" is anti-English. The song lyric was written by an Englishman and 'foe' here means the enemies of the Jacobites. There is no mention of the English!! It is about somone escaping from his enemies over the sea. The use of the word 'foe' hardly makes it a hate mongering lyric even if it was specifically about one nationality. It is simply stating he is fleeing from his enemies. Likewise with "Sound The Pibroch" - no it is not a call to arms against the English. It is a call to arms against the Hanovarians. Though it doesn't actually really mention the enemy at all. Clearly absurd to suggest either of these songs are anti-English. but if you really want to be offended by songs then you will find a way to be offended - that is clear. Yes there are some songs about 'crushing' the English but my point was they are the exception. There simply is not that many of them. For every "Black Douglas" or "Stirling Brig" there are a hundred songs which have nothing to do with crushing the English. |
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Subject: RE: The Flower of Scotland From: meself Date: 14 Feb 19 - 01:39 PM I would have thought that the singing of most of these Jacobite songs are understood today to be harmless excursions into the glories and drama of some misty romantic past that never quite was. Of course, I'm in North America - but if the singing of, say, Sound the Pibroch were to lead some old greybeard in his cups to start denouncing the English and weeping over the Stuarts, everyone would be laughing over it for days .... |
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Subject: RE: The Flower of Scotland From: Tattie Bogle Date: 14 Feb 19 - 05:07 PM Ronnie has not sung Flower of Scotland at Murrayfield for a long time! He said he found it too emotional the last time he did (thinking of Roy): what I find emotional now is that for several seasons we've had pipes leading the first verse, but then they stop playing and the crowd does the last verse a capella: we don't need any opera singers to lead it! (Oh, and I'm sure the Princess Royal who goes to the matches as patron, has been caught on camera joining in the singing - far from being offended!) |
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Subject: RE: The Flower of Scotland From: GUEST,Sol Date: 14 Feb 19 - 05:57 PM At Culloden in 1746(Jacobites v Duke of Cumberland's British Army), there were apparently more Scots (probably lowlanders)fighting with Cumberland than with Chairlie. If that was the case, it is misleading to describe the battle as a "Scotland v England" encounter. AFAIK, the '45 Rising was an attempt to reinstate a Catholic monarch on the throne of Scotland. |
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Subject: RE: The Flower of Scotland From: peteglasgow Date: 14 Feb 19 - 07:30 PM yes, i've heard that. the insult 'sassenach' actually referred to lowland scots fighting with - or for- the english. fulfilling the same role as unionists today in their sad battle against independent scotland. |
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Subject: RE: The Flower of Scotland From: GUEST,ActiusAquila Date: 14 Feb 19 - 08:00 PM OK, Allan, I apologize, you know what you're talking about more than I do here. But yes, people will find every way to be offended if they want to be offended. That's kinda part of what I wanted to say, hence my reading too much into it. I agree with Tattie 100%. It's amazing when the piper stops piping and the crowd sings without the pipe or a singer leading them on, because they don't need either of them. At that point FoS is just beautiful, though I sort of wish Ronnie would sing it again (he just sings as one of the crowd now, apparently), and it's so sad that Roy never got to lead the crowd in singing the song he wrote himself. At least he got to see them singing it in 1990, he was supposedly smiling all the way through! |
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Subject: RE: The Flower of Scotland From: Johnny J Date: 19 Jun 21 - 07:14 AM Just thought I'd revisit this thread after last night's glorious draw. ;-) I've read the comments with interest and, personally, I don't believe the song was intended to be anti English. At least, not towards the English people of today. While Roy was undoubtably a supporter of Independence, he wasn't advocating going to war with England or wishing them any ill will. While he wanted Scotland to rise, be strong, and a nation once again, I'm fairly sure he didn't mean that it should be at the expense or detriment or any other country. In fact, the lyrics actually state "These days are passed now and in the past they *must* remain".. If you listen to the original recording, you'll hear that it is actually a very reflective and thoughtful performance. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XiyLuv3GSs4 While it's not my favourite song, I feel that it has been much maligned by some but also hijacked by others who have misinterpreted its original concept. For that reason, I'm not sure it is best suited as a Scottish anthem but it seems to be the "de facto" choice. |
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Subject: RE: The Flower of Scotland From: Tattie Bogle Date: 19 Jun 21 - 07:12 PM I agree with much of what you say there, Johnny J: it has been a subject of much heated debate, not just on music forums but in Scottish newspapers and there have even been song-writing competitions to write a new anthem for Scotland. It doesn't sound its best when bellowed by a raucous melee of legless supporters after a football/rugby match! Incidentally, that video you posted shows Roy Williamson's original bouzouki, which sort of disappeared off the planet for many years, and has just recently been saved for the nation by a fundraising appeal: it is to be housed in future in Scotland's excellent museum collection of historic instruments at St Cecilia's Hall, just off the Cowgate in Edinburgh - well worth a visit if you are allowed into Scotland at present (and probably need to book an appointment! (Note St Cecilia is patron saint of music!) See: Roy Williamsons' Bouzouki |
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Subject: RE: The Flower of Scotland From: Jack Campin Date: 19 Jun 21 - 08:35 PM Surely our new national anthem is "Yes Sir, I Can Boogie"? |
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Subject: RE: The Flower of Scotland From: Johnny J Date: 20 Jun 21 - 04:31 AM Trish, I read about the bouzouki in the local Evening News. So, some of us read it after all. ;-) I'd like to see it for myself when possible. I'm surprised that the young footballers remember that song which came out in 1977 but they must still have played it in Spanish night clubs and the like. |
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Subject: RE: The Flower of Scotland From: Howard Jones Date: 21 Jun 21 - 04:28 AM As an Englishman I have no problem with the lyrics of 'Flower of Scotland' (although when I attended an England-Scotland match at Marrayfield I found the pre-match whipped-up agressive atmosphere disturbing). The problem with it as an anthem is that the tune with its distinctive flattened 7th doesn't fit into the scale of the bagpipes. Modifying the tune to fit the bagpipe scale greatly reduces its power (which is perhaps why the crowd keeps singing after the band stops). If it were to be officially adopted perhaps a key could be added to the GHP chanter to play the missing note? |
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Subject: RE: The Flower of Scotland From: GUEST Date: 21 Jun 21 - 05:10 AM I am Scottish and loathe "flower..." It is a horrible dirge but has a suitably repetitive and memorable hook- that can be sung by drunks and cranks everywhere. Like Covid it is impossible to eradicate, as it went viral. It is now a true folk song in entering consciousness with the little chanted word that people add. No matter if you come up with something else, it simply can't fall out of favour as its self-perpetuating down generations. It is also currently a copyright work, but full copyright in folk terms can never be controlled with football music. It embodies the retro nastiness of Bruce, Wallace (yawn) and all the centuries chip on our shoulder trash that Scotland won't let go of. All nationalist anthems have a superiority complex.. and this unofficial one certainly does - which is why it remains popular. The camp 'yes sir I can boogie' disco one is interesting as it breaks the mould, with no real connection to anything, but it is the viral football chant gone rogue! |
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Subject: RE: The Flower of Scotland From: Vic Smith Date: 21 Jun 21 - 08:47 AM I am also Scot-born and like the previous poster, I loathe Flower of Scotland finding it facile and without merit in melody or lyric. How can such dirge like words be regarded as having an appeal to the better parts of Scottish people when the only person mentioned in it is a foreign enemy? The appeal is to an outdated and outmoded bellicosity which has no place in an integrated and mutually dependant modern world. I knew that great songwriter, Michael Marra quite well and we shared out mutual disdain of the song. Not long after one of our conversations about it, Micheal sent me a copy of his recently completed song Hermless which he suggested as a suitable alternative candidate for a national anthem. In this live version, he says something about the song before singing it. https://youtu.be/QtB65M_ejbA |
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Subject: RE: The Flower of Scotland From: Tattie Bogle Date: 22 Jun 21 - 07:07 PM Yes, we all love “Hermless” in Scotland, but Michael Marra’s suggestion of it for an anthem for Scotland was hugely tongue in cheek! Can you seriously imagine it being sung at big state occasions, sporting fixtures and the like? Not in a million years, but still very happy to sing it in every pub session (whatever happened to them?) - a Scottish pub anthem but never a national anthem! Re Flower of Scotland and that thing about the pipe scale; we just get used to it! Not a big deal! |
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Subject: RE: The Flower of Scotland From: DonMeixner Date: 22 Jun 21 - 08:35 PM I find that I sing the song not as a "song for or against anyone kind of song" but a song wondering where all the people with guts have gone. In the US I am as anti-war as is possible to be. But I understand a call to duty that is felt so strong that a person will stand against a foe they have no hope of defeating. That how I hear Roy's song. Not a bar room full of brass rail athletes singing in various keys. Is it a good anthem? I don't know what makes a good anthem. Ours is poem which was set to a drinking hymn and it is too hard to sing by most folks. I have heard several others I would prefer to ours. At least Flower has the benefit of being easy to sing and with relative simplicity of lyric. Don |
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Subject: RE: The Flower of Scotland From: GUEST Date: 23 Jun 21 - 02:52 AM Re- the simplicity of the lyric and ease of singing - that is the problem with the like of 'Scotland the Brave'. It has a stirring tune - great on pipes and brass - but when fitted with words impossible for the public to assimilate and reproduce with vocals no matter what words are fitted. Flower has that simplicity for any drunk to chant and raucously belt out - even if it is dated turgid, slightly anti-English historical drivel. In reality no-one can rise up about very much these days as we live in a woke, police state, with governments of all persuasions who don't take kindly to that kind of thing. Plus there is really no such thing as a single nation, we are always divided into factions and always have been. It is always an irony to me that the words state that 'those days are past now and in the past they must remain' - then it contradicts itself by talking about rising etc.- whether that be metaphorical or real is left to the singer/listener. Certainly in football terms we really do need hope to rise again! |
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Subject: RE: The Flower of Scotland From: Allan Conn Date: 23 Jun 21 - 08:14 AM The lyric to me is not talking about 'rising' as in an actual 'rebellion' as it states the days of conflict are in the past and must remain in the past. Surely it is just talking about becoming an independent nation again? About standing alongside the other nations on your own right. I get it that some people don't like it but facts are it was the people's choice. It had become the anthem of both the football and rugby terraces before GSTQ was dropped. So it isn't a song foisted on folks from above. I agree sometimes during the anthem itself it doesn't always work - but actually the crowd just started singing it half way through the second half last night and it sounded great like that. Corries did a more uptempo version too - see link below. As to its quality well that is down to personal taste. It isn't something we do regularly at our pub session - but when we do it is usually because a tourist has requested it. It seems to be incredibly popular among French, Germans etc. So it must have something going for it when these folks have no axe to grind. I know some folk really like it because they believe in independence but equally it seems at least some are put off it because of their own unionist prejudices. One of these songs though that, yes when we do sing it, just about the whole place joins in. It obviously has its political message but I think it is pretty clear vast amounts of folks sing it while not sharing the same ideals as the composer. Murrayfield is hardly a bastion of ardent nationalists https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vyx1xeZo_tk |
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Subject: RE: The Flower of Scotland From: GUEST Date: 23 Jun 21 - 02:33 PM Through the prism of time.. some 1992 press pieces that illustrate the unsolvable FOS terrace anthem dilemma which still continues. It is all a circular debate. A FORMER BBC TV producer is mounting a solo campaign to get the rugby anthem Flower of Scotland banned from the terraces. Lifelong rugby fan Peter Whiteford (63), who thinks the song is racist and provocative, has taken up the issue in two national newspapers and may now extend his protest to the Scottish Rugby Union. Mr Whiteford, a Scot, said today; “That racist bar-room ballad responsible for an upsurge of nationalism and a decline in sportsmanship at Murrayfield.” SRU secretary Bill Hogg said: “We are delighted to play Flower of Scotland at Murrayfleld. Scotland is an individual country and as such, needs a separate tune.” Aberdeen Evening Express. ‘Brave’ choice SIR, Rugby Union gives us Flower of Scotland before matches, while football fans give us Scotland the Brave. Flower of Scotland is a dirge, appearing almost to be sorry for being a Scot, while Scotland the Brave is a delightful song, depicting people happy to be alive. Without a doubt, Scotland the Brave is easily the better of the two national songs and is more tuneful. The image of the dour, unhappy Scot is not a good one: the cheerful Scot is far more companionable. Is it not more beneficial for Scots to be seen as a cheerful people like our football supporters? Although an occasional moan is helpful, it is better if we were not to be seen as a nation always moaning about our lot. Peter G. Mitchell, 52 Fife Street, Keith. Aberdeen P & J "Tartan Army fine tuned -THE Tartan Army has no excuse for not being word perfect when Scotland’s “national anthem’’ is played before the World Cup tie In Switzerland tonight. For copies of the Scotland The; Brave lyrics have been flown out specially to the official Scotland travel club’s 4,000 members. No longer can they hum and haw when the band strikes up prior to Scotland’s World Cup opening tune in Berne. Martin Row, secretary of the Scottish Federation of Supporters Clubs, said yesterday: “We thought it was about time our lads on the terracing knew the words, even if It’s difficult keeping up with the tune. Most of them would actually prefer ‘Flower of Scotland’.’’ Aberdeen P & J |
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Subject: RE: The Flower of Scotland From: Vic Smith Date: 23 Jun 21 - 03:13 PM However badly I rate Flower of Scotland it cannot reach the drivelling doggerel heights of another anthem, especially the second verse which runs:- O Lord our God arise, In future when I watch any Scotland v. England international on the television and anthems are being sung at the start, I will just have to mute the volume and sing to myself: - Roch the wind in the clear day’s dawin |
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Subject: RE: The Flower of Scotland From: Tattie Bogle Date: 24 Jun 21 - 09:25 AM Well there’s another that has been proposed as a Scottish national anthem: written in broad Scots, so even tougher to learn than “Scotland the Brave”, even for they wha aye spik the leid. I have learned “Freedom Come All Ye” as have many of my folk friends,: it only took me about 5 years - but I would think it is little known outwith such circles. I believe Hamish Henderson himself said he intended it as an international anthem rather than a national one. |
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Subject: RE: The Flower of Scotland From: GUEST Date: 24 Jun 21 - 01:21 PM This is the problem when it comes to anthems.. we need to drop the chip on our shoulder ancient historical crap of 'flower...'. Drop the archaic language of Auld Scots, which nobody understands..or twee heather and haggis of Scotland the Brave, and have something that represents a modern and vibrant Scotland in its new multi-cultural form. We need to look forward (even if we are a bit rubbish at football). Kids need to be able to understand any anthem.. esoteric relatively dead language which appeals amongst a limited audience is not the answer, though folk singers may get it and need to preserve their end. It is really difficult to invent something to order.. and get it into consciousness.. the unified viral spread of songs among a mass audience that happened in the days when we all listened to radio, the same TV and theatre, when music itself crossed generations, is so difficult in this fragmented age. |
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Subject: RE: The Flower of Scotland From: Tattie Bogle Date: 24 Jun 21 - 05:25 PM Well, I agree with some of what you say, Guest, in that a good anthem must have popular appeal and be understood by the broad masses of the said country. And yes, there is a fragmentation in this era of a massive explosion of TV channels, Netflix and the like. Not so sure about the "esoteric relatively dead language" when so much effort is being put into to getting kids in school to understand and speak Scots, Doric, Gaelic, which have all been suppressed in the past. |
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Subject: RE: The Flower of Scotland From: Allan Conn Date: 24 Jun 21 - 05:51 PM Certainly not a dead language. I myself would regard myself as having Border Scots as my first tongue. Over a million Scots speak Scots to some degree. Fair do there is then the current spoken dialects and there is then the more literary version which uses the odd archaic word not much used in normal day to day use. |
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Subject: RE: The Flower of Scotland From: GUEST Date: 24 Jun 21 - 06:50 PM Going back,' Flower of Scotland' was written during the period when there was a need for the radical movement, and the the use of past history was a propaganda tool to promote the nationalist movement. We have moved past that, even if we don't have independence yet. We have the SNP in power.. and a devolved government We should stop using the past like the Bruce etc, stop singing and chanting about sending anyone home tae think again (England!!) and start promoting today's Scotland in modern common shared language. One of the reasons why Flower of Scotland has stood the test of time (even if I don't like it), and can be belted out by all, is that it does use ordinary common language which bypasses regional dialects. "Tae" is about the only use of Scots, and it is an easy word not much different to the word it replaces. |
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