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Lyr Add: Paddy's Lamentation

Related threads:
Tune Req: Paddy's Lamentation / By the Hush (14)
Chord Req: Paddy's Lamentation (14)
Req only: Paddy's Lamentation/Ships Are Sailing (3) (closed)
req only: Paddy's Lamentation / By the Hush (2) (closed)


Alice 12 May 98 - 12:57 PM
Jon W. 12 May 98 - 01:54 PM
Alice 12 May 98 - 02:17 PM
O'Boyle 13 May 98 - 03:14 AM
Alice 13 May 98 - 09:48 AM
Art Thieme 13 May 98 - 11:46 AM
Art Thieme 13 May 98 - 12:03 PM
Alice 13 May 98 - 12:29 PM
Jon W. 13 May 98 - 01:20 PM
McGrath 13 May 98 - 02:10 PM
McGrath 13 May 98 - 02:42 PM
Alice 01 Oct 98 - 02:03 PM
05 Oct 98 - 03:28 PM
Rex Rideout 12 Oct 98 - 08:23 AM
Liam's Brother 13 Oct 98 - 08:34 PM
tulletje 24 Oct 98 - 11:48 AM
dick greenhaus 24 Oct 98 - 02:27 PM
Liam's Brother 25 Oct 98 - 06:03 PM
Liam's Brother 26 Oct 98 - 10:18 PM
Paul Harty 26 Oct 98 - 11:08 PM
Rex Rideout 29 Oct 98 - 01:08 PM
Alice 16 Nov 98 - 04:47 PM
Alice 21 Apr 99 - 01:53 PM
mkaye 21 Apr 99 - 05:53 PM
Abby Sale 28 Sep 00 - 10:39 AM
GUEST,Martin Ryan 28 Sep 00 - 11:26 AM
Fiolar 28 Sep 00 - 01:42 PM
Alice 27 Mar 01 - 09:57 PM
radriano 28 Mar 01 - 11:27 AM
dick greenhaus 28 Mar 01 - 02:38 PM
beachcomber 28 Mar 01 - 03:21 PM
Alice 28 Mar 01 - 04:24 PM
Liam's Brother 28 Mar 01 - 04:34 PM
Brendy 28 Mar 01 - 06:02 PM
Brendy 28 Mar 01 - 06:05 PM
MartinRyan 28 Mar 01 - 06:46 PM
Alice 27 Mar 02 - 11:14 AM
Dicho (Frank Staplin) 27 Mar 02 - 10:25 PM
GUEST,guest - bigmon kentucky 08 Jun 02 - 09:29 PM
Brían 08 Jun 02 - 10:57 PM
GUEST,bigmon 31 Jul 02 - 11:54 PM
Alice 01 Aug 02 - 01:01 PM
Alice 31 Oct 02 - 12:17 PM
David Ingerson 01 Nov 02 - 12:29 PM
David Ingerson 04 Nov 02 - 11:58 AM
Declan 04 Nov 02 - 12:04 PM
GUEST,Ard Mhacha 04 Nov 02 - 12:25 PM
GUEST,pavlina 04 Nov 02 - 12:48 PM
Declan 04 Nov 02 - 01:05 PM
David Ingerson 04 Nov 02 - 06:00 PM
GUEST,francovation@aol.com 14 Mar 03 - 03:30 PM
Alice 14 Mar 03 - 03:57 PM
GUEST,russellbooks@ukonline.co.uk 10 Apr 03 - 08:38 PM
GUEST,whacker 11 Apr 03 - 08:18 PM
GUEST,Jim Maloney 20 Nov 03 - 01:43 AM
Desert Dancer 22 Apr 04 - 01:12 PM
Malcolm Douglas 22 Apr 04 - 02:46 PM
Desert Dancer 22 Apr 04 - 02:59 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 22 Apr 04 - 03:05 PM
Desert Dancer 22 Apr 04 - 03:49 PM
Malcolm Douglas 22 Apr 04 - 04:01 PM
Desert Dancer 22 Apr 04 - 04:08 PM
Malcolm Douglas 22 Apr 04 - 04:23 PM
Malcolm Douglas 22 Apr 04 - 05:11 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 22 Apr 04 - 08:04 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 22 Apr 04 - 08:40 PM
Malcolm Douglas 23 Apr 04 - 11:44 AM
Desert Dancer 23 Apr 04 - 01:16 PM
Malcolm Douglas 23 Apr 04 - 10:33 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 24 Apr 04 - 01:31 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 29 Jun 05 - 01:24 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 29 Jun 05 - 04:06 PM
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Severn 02 Sep 05 - 10:19 AM
Desert Dancer 18 Oct 11 - 04:18 PM
GUEST 20 May 18 - 11:25 AM
Lighter 20 May 18 - 12:21 PM
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GUEST,Mick Pearce (MCP) 20 May 18 - 03:31 PM
meself 20 May 18 - 09:03 PM
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Sean Fear 21 May 18 - 06:37 AM
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Subject: Lyr Add: PADDY'S LAMENTATION
From: Alice
Date: 12 May 98 - 12:57 PM

This song is on the soundtrack for 'Long Journey Home, The Irish in America', a film recently aired on American PBS stations. Mary Black sings Paddy's Lamentation. I have the lyrics for the version she sings in the CD notes, but when I looked in the database, I eventually found another version called 'By The Hush'. I was particularly drawn to this song because General Meagher played a role in Montana history. There is a Meagher county in Montana (we pronounce it Mar) and a Meagher Ave. in a new subdivision (with streets named after counties) of Bozeman. I have heard that houses being built on Meagher Ave. are harder to sell, because people moving here don't want to live on 'meager' street.

Anyway, a statue of General Meagher on his horse, brandishing a saber, stands in front of the state capitol building in Helena. Here is a bit about him quoted from a Montana history book by Michael Malone and Richard Roeder.

"Amidst the chaos of the closing months of the Civil War and the aftermath of Lincoln's assassination, faraway places like Montana were largely forgotten in Washington. Key federal positions in Montana remained unfilled for months. During its first 16 months, Montana had no territorial secretary. Since only the secretary could sign federal warrants, this meant that no federal funds could be spent. .... When a secretary, Thomas F. Meagher, finally arrived in late September 1865, Edgerton hurriedly turned over his duties to him as acting governor and left for the East.... thus after a brief and hectic term, Montana's first chief executive left the scene never to return.

Edgerton's absence led to one of the most chaotic periods in Montana's political history. At the center of the chaos and controversy stood the territorial secretary and acting governor, Thomas Francis Meagher. This colorful character, whose equestrian statue now stands before the state capitol, was a brash adventurer who came here with an international reputation and an appetite for even greater glories. Descended from a wealthy Irish family, young Meagher became a leading figure in the Irish independence movement, a noted orator, and an ally of the famous Daniel O'Connell. He narrowly escaped execution by the British because of his revolutionary activities and was banished instead to the penal colony of Tasmania. After escaping from Tasmania, Meagher came eventually to New York, and he soon rose to prominence there as a leader among the thousands of Irish immigrants in that city. During the Civil War, he became famous as the organizing commmander and general of the Irish Brigade. This hard charging outfit saw fierce action at such battles as Malvern Hill and Antietam...practically annihilated in the suicide charge at Fredericksburg...

During the spring of 1867, attacks by Sioux Indians along the Bozeman Rode touched off a classic panic in Montana. Especially in the well settled Gallatin Valley, the fear spread that the Sioux would sweep westward along Bozeman's route and terrorize the Montana settlements. Although groundless, public fears heightened when John Bozeman himself was killed, reportedly by Indians, along the Yellowstone River in April. Besieged by pleas for military protection, acting Governor Meagher asked for and finally received federal authority to raise a militia force to guard the Gallatin and surrounding areas.

Affairs quickly got out of hand, as they often did in such situations. Meagher raised an army of over six hundred volunteers, heavily staffed with high ranking officers. The army encamped in the Gallatin Valley and along the upper Yellowstone, but encountered very few Indians. By the time the "army" was finally disbanded, to the great anger of some of the troops, who wished to remain on the federal payroll, it had run up bills totalling $1,100,000! Realizing that local merchants had drastically overcharged the militia, the federal government refused to pay the full amount of the bills, and finally settled with local creditors for $513,000. It proved to be a senseless and very expensive "war".

... On July 1, 1867, while in Fort Benton awaiting the arrival of his wife and an arms shipment by steamboat, Meagher mysteriously disappeared from the docked boat on which he was staying. He apparently fell from the vessel during the night and drowned, but his body was never recovered. Whether accident, suicide, or even murder was involved, no one knows to this day. General Meagher remains a hero to the Irish of his homeland, and the thousands of Irish who came to the mining towns of Montana celebrated his memory with the impressive statue that now stands before the state capitol."

Paddy's Lamentation as recorded by Mary Black

chorus
Here's you boys, now take my advice
To America I'll have yous not be comin'
There is nothin' here but war where the murderin' cannons roar
And I wish I was at home in dear old Dublin.

1.Well, it's by the hush, me boys, and sure that's to hold your noise
And listen to poor Paddy's sad narration.
I was by hunger pressed and in poverty distressed
So I took a thought I'd leave the Irish nation.

chorus

2. Well, I sold me horse and cow, my little pigs and sow
My little plot of land I soon did part with
And me sweetheart Biddy McGee I'm afraid I'll never see
For I left her there that morning broken hearted.

chorus

3. Well, meself and a hundred more, to America sailed o'er
Our fortunes to be made we were thinkin'
When we got to Yankee land, they shoved a gun into our hands
Sayin', "Paddy, you must go and fight for Lincoln."

chorus

4. General Meagher to us he said, if you get shot or lose a leg
Every mother's son of yous will get a pension.
Well, myself I lost me leg, they gave me a wooden peg
And by God this is the truth to you I mention.

chorus
-------------

Another note about 'yous' instead of 'you'. In the little town of Walkerville at the Butte mines, people said 'yous' instead of 'you'. When I was in the 4th grade, we had a student teacher who was from Walkerville. He was quite a comic, and would say 'da big cheese' and 'yous' to make us laugh. Quite a break from the strict nuns.

Alice in Montana


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Subject: RE: Add: Paddy's Lamentation
From: Jon W.
Date: 12 May 98 - 01:54 PM

I've got a recording of "By the Hush" by the Woods Tea Co. which I like a lot. They have the first line of the fourth verse as "And one more to us was said, if you're shot or lose your head". I like your version better, Alic, it makes more sense. They also include one more verse, which is something like this:

Now I'd think myself in luck to be fed on Indian buck,
In old Ireland, the land that I delight in.
And the Devil I do say, thrice curse Americay,
For I'm sure I've had enough of your hard fightin'.


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Subject: RE: Add: Paddy's Lamentation
From: Alice
Date: 12 May 98 - 02:17 PM

That last verse you posted or something like it, Jon, I think is also part of the one I read last night in the DT database.

Alice in Montana


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Subject: RE: Add: Paddy's Lamentation
From: O'Boyle
Date: 13 May 98 - 03:14 AM

Alice, I don't like to give people orders, but you have to get a copy of David Kincaid's "The Irish Volunteer; Songs of the Irish Union Soldier 1861-1865" on Ryko. It was released a couple of months ago and features some great folk numbers including "Paddy's Lamentation". Most of the songs mentioning Meagher.

Slainte

Rick


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Subject: RE: Add: Paddy's Lamentation
From: Alice
Date: 13 May 98 - 09:48 AM

Thanks for the tip, Rick.

Alice


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Subject: RE: Add: Paddy's Lamentation
From: Art Thieme
Date: 13 May 98 - 11:46 AM

Folks, I first became aware of this song through the singing of O.J. Abbott of the Ottawa valley (Canada).See his wonderful Folkways LP (Smithsonian Folkways now). I believe that Edith Fowke was the collector who found Mr. Abbott. Ian Robb does it too, I've sung it for years with a banjo.

Art


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Subject: RE: Add: Paddy's Lamentation
From: Art Thieme
Date: 13 May 98 - 12:03 PM

Alice, There is a town in Wisconsin named Edgerton. Very close to Fort Atkinson, Wisconsin named for General Henry Atkinson of the BLACK HAWK WAR (1832) fame---and later in western history when another Fort Atkinson was named for him.

The Black Hawk War is the only war in American history that I know of to be named for an individual!


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Subject: RE: Add: Paddy's Lamentation
From: Alice
Date: 13 May 98 - 12:29 PM

Hi Art, I don't know if this is the same man as Wisconsin's Edgerton, but Sidney Edgerton, Montana's first territorial governor, was an abolitionist from Ohio. Alot of southerners (Democrats) settled in Montana, and the Irish mining immigrants and the Germans were mostly Democrats as well. Montana's first years were at the close of the Civil War, and there was conflict over loyalties as well as racism. When Edgerton, a Republican, won the first election, the legislature, went Unionist (republican) by one vote in the Council, and Democratic by one vote in the House. When Edgerton addressed the legislature, he offended the Confederate veterans and also called former Democratic president Buchanan an "imbecile". When General Meagher came on the scene, he confused matters even more by switching from being a Union Democrat to a Republican, and then back to being a Democrat. He saw that most of the Irish were Democrats, so he knew that was where his political future could be built. The Republicans felt betrayed, and they sent letters back to Washington complaining about Meagher. From the original letters they charged..." he has been in fact drunk nearly every day since coming to the territory" and "that the executive office is a place of rendezvous for the vilest prostitutes and they state the fact publickly [sic] and boast of their profitable intercourse with him" (italics in original letter).

And that is probably more about General Meagher than anyone here wants to know!

alice


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Subject: RE: Add: Paddy's Lamentation
From: Jon W.
Date: 13 May 98 - 01:20 PM

Sounds like Montana had as much trouble with her territorial governors as Utah had with hers. No wonder they wanted statehood.


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Subject: RE: Add: Paddy's Lamentation
From: McGrath
Date: 13 May 98 - 02:10 PM

Mighty stuff lads. It's great to know more about Meagher and his men.
I just love Mudcat and it's people.
Here is a very slightly different version of the same song which I got from the singing of Frank Harte. Full lyrics and a great rendition of the song are on his CD "Daybreak and a Candle-End"

Frank explains on the sleeve notes, "The title of the song is a corruption of an Irish phrase Bí i do thost or be quietwhich in fact is translated in the first line of the song......Well, it's by the hush, me boys and that's to make no noise".

By The Hush Me Boys

Chorus
Here's you boys, now take my advice
To America I'd have you not be comin'
For There's nothin' here but war
Where the murderin' cannons roar
And I wish I was at home in dear old Erin.

Well, it's by the hush, me boys
And that's to make no noise
And listen to poor Paddy's sad narration.
For I was by hunger pressed
And in poverty distressed
So I took a thought I'd leave the Irish nation.

chorus

Well, I sold me horse and plough
My little pig and sow
My father's farm of land and then I parted
And me sweetheart Biddy McGee
I'm afraid I'll ne'er more see
For I left her there in Ireland broken hearted.

chorus

Then, myself and a hundred more,
To America sailed o'er
Our fortunes to be madking we were thinkin'
When we landed in Yankee land
They stuck a gun into our hand
Sayin', "Paddy, you must go and fight for Lincoln."

chorus

General Meagher to us he said
If you get shot or lose your head
Every mother's son of yous will get a pension.
In the war I lost me leg
All I have now is a wooden peg
By my soul it is the truth to you I'll mention.

Now I'd think myself in luck
To be fed on Indian buck,
In old Ireland, the country I delight in.
And the Devil I do say,
God's curse on Americay,
For I'm sure I've had enough of your hard fightin'.

chorus

Thanks again for your wonderful thread contributions.

Frank McGrath
Nenagh Singers Circle


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Subject: Lyr Add: BY THE HUSH ME BOYS (from Frank Harte)
From: McGrath
Date: 13 May 98 - 02:42 PM

Sorry!
I made a right pigs bottom of that last posting. It Should look like this;

Here is a very slightly different version of the same song which I got from the singing of Frank Harte. Full lyrics and a great rendition of the song are on his CD "Daybreak and a Candle-End"

Frank explains on the sleeve notes "The title of the song is a corruption of an Irish phrase Bí i do thost or be quietwhich in fact is translated in the first line of the song......Well, it's by the hush, me boys and that's to make no noise.

By The Hush Me Boys

Well, it's by the hush, me boys
And that's to make no noise
And listen to poor Paddy's sad narration.
For I was by hunger pressed
And in poverty distressed
So I took a thought I'd leave the Irish nation.

Chorus
Here's you boys, now take my advice
To America I'd have you not be comin'
For There's nothin' here but war
Where the murderin' cannons roar
And I wish I was at home in dear old Erin.

Well, I sold me horse and plough
My little pig and sow
My father's farm of land and then I parted
And me sweetheart Biddy McGee
I'm afraid I'll ne'er more see
For I left her there in Ireland broken hearted.

chorus

Then, myself and a hundred more,
To America sailed o'er
Our fortunes to be making we were thinkin'
When we landed in Yankee land
They stuck a gun into our hand
Sayin', "Paddy, you must go and fight for Lincoln."

chorus

General Meagher to us he said
If you get shot or lose your head
Every mother's son of you will get a pension.
In the war I lost me leg
All I've now is a wooden peg
By my soul it is the truth to you I'll mention.

Now I'd think myself in luck
To be fed on Indian buck,
In old Ireland, the country I delight in.
And the Devil I do say,
God's curse on Americay,
For I'm sure I've had enough of your hard fightin'.

chorus

Thanks again for your wonderful thread contributions.

Frank McGrath
Nenagh Singers CircleBy The Hush Me Boys


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Subject: RE: Add: Paddy's Lamentation
From: Alice
Date: 01 Oct 98 - 02:03 PM

refreshing this thread in response to the thread titled "Civil War Ballads" started by Martin Ryan (click here)
Subject: Civil War Ballads
From: Martin Ryan
Date: 30-Sep-98 - 06:46 AM

alice in montana


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Subject: RE: Add: Paddy's Lamentation
From:
Date: 05 Oct 98 - 03:28 PM

Carrying on from Art Thieme's comments above, I think all will find that most versions of "By The Hush" sung today can ultimately be traced to Canadians: O.J. Abbott or Tom Brandon... certainly, they were they first to record it.

It occasionally happens that an exceptional song, on the edge of extinction, reappears and has renewed popularity. The best case in point? "The Leaving of Liverpool" was collected by William Main Doerflinger from Dick Maitland. MacColl & Lloyd got it from Shantymen and Shantyboys. Lou Killen got it from Ewan. Luke Kelly got it from Lou. The Clancys got it from Luke. Otherwise, we wouldn't have it.

Two great songs. Isn't life wonderful!


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Subject: RE: Add: Paddy's Lamentation
From: Rex Rideout
Date: 12 Oct 98 - 08:23 AM

I've been waiting for someone to say when this was written but I get the feeling that the date isn't known. It's a good song and I would like to be able to use it in some of the living history stuff I do.


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Subject: RE: Add: Paddy's Lamentation
From: Liam's Brother
Date: 13 Oct 98 - 08:34 PM

Hi Rex!

After the Civil War, veterans had difficulty in getting pensions. In fact, the special status of veterans in the U.S. dates to a movement which was started after the War by vets to get what they had been promised. In reading the song, I assume that "By The Hush" was written sometime within 10 years of the end of the War.

All the best.


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Subject: RE: Add: Paddy's Lamentation
From: tulletje
Date: 24 Oct 98 - 11:48 AM

Tank you all. I was just about to open a thread to find out the words of this song that I know from the singing of Mary Black on the Album Anthem of DeDanann (1985), but you helped me before I could. Alice, you know a hell of al lot about American history, I think you would make a perfect president of the USA (at least your not bothered by M.Lewinsky's the way she did Bill!)

Bye

Tulletje


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Subject: RE: Add: Paddy's Lamentation
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 24 Oct 98 - 02:27 PM

I've been looking for songs about the Irish in the Civil War, and the subsequent Fenian invasion of Canada (not very successful). Any contributions ecstatically accepted.


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Subject: RE: Add: Paddy's Lamentation
From: Liam's Brother
Date: 25 Oct 98 - 06:03 PM

Hi Dick!

Take a look at the Warner collection, Traditional American Folk Songs. See #14, "The Irish Sixty Ninth."

All the best, Dan Milner


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Subject: RE: Add: Paddy's Lamentation
From: Liam's Brother
Date: 26 Oct 98 - 10:18 PM

TO: DICK GREENHAUS

Hi Dick!

I believe you may have tried to send me a message today. If you did, it didn't work. Please try me at folkmusic@prodigy.net.

All the best, Dan


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Subject: RE: Add: Paddy's Lamentation
From: Paul Harty
Date: 26 Oct 98 - 11:08 PM

A printed version, entitled By the Hush is in the Penguin book of Canadian Folksongs, edited by Edith Fowke. The book cites the singing of O.J. Abbott who learned from a Mrs. O'Malley in the Orttwa valey in the 1880's. The song footnotes cooment that song was not found in tradition in the US and they mention Thomas Francis Meagher as being the leader of the Irish Brigade. The version I sing I got from the singing of Paul Brady on the compilation album, the Gathering.

And to Dick Greenhaus: the first song in the same book is titled A Fenian Song check it out. Bye, paul


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Subject: RE: Add: Paddy's Lamentation
From: Rex Rideout
Date: 29 Oct 98 - 01:08 PM

That was the info I was waiting for. Now I can put a "found" date on it. Thanks Paul

Rex


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Subject: RE: Add: Paddy's Lamentation
From: Alice
Date: 16 Nov 98 - 04:47 PM

refreshed to answer a question on 11/16/98

alice in montana


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Subject: RE: Add: Paddy's Lamentation
From: Alice
Date: 21 Apr 99 - 01:53 PM

refresh


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Subject: RE: Add: Paddy's Lamentation
From: mkaye
Date: 21 Apr 99 - 05:53 PM

In all these messages, I'm surprised noone mentioned the version by Andy M. Stewart. It's the title cut to his 1983 album. Stewart's version makes an interesting contrast with Mary Black's singing on De Danaan's album. He actually uses the lyrics in one of the versions in a previous post, while DeDanaan uses the other version posted.


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Subject: RE: Add: Paddy's Lamentation
From: Abby Sale
Date: 28 Sep 00 - 10:39 AM

Two questions about this fine song:

re the last verse,
Now I'd think myself in luck
To be fed on Indian buck,
In old Ireland, the country I delight in.


Has this any known reference to Irish food? Seems inconsistant for Narrator to be nostalgic for American food...

And, can any give a notion of about how to pronounce the suggested original first line,
Bí i do thost

Thanks


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Subject: RE: Add: Paddy's Lamentation
From: GUEST,Martin Ryan
Date: 28 Sep 00 - 11:26 AM

Try:

be-ih-duh-hust

On the "buck", the reference is proably to maize, used for famine relief. It's not nostalgia, I'm afraid - but resignation.

Regards


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Subject: RE: Add: Paddy's Lamentation
From: Fiolar
Date: 28 Sep 00 - 01:42 PM

A final word on Meagher - In a speech to the Repeal Association in Ireland in 1846 he hailed the sword as a sacred weapon. This lead William Makepeace Thackeray to call him "Meagher of the Sword." M


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Subject: RE: Add: Paddy's Lamentation
From: Alice
Date: 27 Mar 01 - 09:57 PM

Meagher, of the Sword, eh? More about the Irish Brigade is at the link next to General Meagher's picture, Raise The Colors.click here

I finally got around to making and uploading a recording of Paddy's Lamentation (By The Hush, sung by Alice)


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Subject: RE: Add: Paddy's Lamentation
From: radriano
Date: 28 Mar 01 - 11:27 AM

There's a nice version of this song on my band's first cassette recording, A Common Treasury, if I do say so myself. We called ourselves "Out of the Rain."

It's great to get more background information on this song. Go, Mudcat!

Richard


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Subject: RE: Add: Paddy's Lamentation
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 28 Mar 01 - 02:38 PM

An odd thing I've noticed in several songs is the non-rhyming versions that often seem to be the earliest found. In By the Hush, the non-rhyme of 'To America I'd have ye not be coming......stayed at home in dear old Erin" sounds to my urban present-day ears like a goof (should be "I'd have ye not be farin'". Similarly, in Leaving of Liverpool, the last line of the chorus seems that it should be "...my darling when I think of thee.." to rhyme with "...united we will be." It's a single-source song, though, and Maitland sang "....when I think of you."

Any thoughts on whether the collected versions are mis-remembered descendents of earlier ones, or if the song's composer wasn't as hung up on rhymes as some of us (including me) are?


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Subject: RE: Add: Paddy's Lamentation
From: beachcomber
Date: 28 Mar 01 - 03:21 PM

Yes , Meagher of the Sword, as he was known was a native of Waterford in Ireland. Funnily enough we are all quite proud of him hereabouts. Still we must accept that he "took a drink now and then"


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Subject: RE: Add: Paddy's Lamentation
From: Alice
Date: 28 Mar 01 - 04:24 PM

I can't remember where I heard or read this, but I recall someone saying that it was more common for immigrants to refer to their county or locality (Dublin) as home rather than the country of Ireland.


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Subject: RE: Add: Paddy's Lamentation
From: Liam's Brother
Date: 28 Mar 01 - 04:34 PM

When you read a bit about Thomas Francis Meagher (Mar-her), you come to realize that he was not the kind of person that people were ambivalent about - he elicited strong feelings, you either loved or hated the man. Therefore, it was written that he was drunk at Antietam and, conversely, that his horse was hit by enemy fire. Either, certainly could be true; perhaps both were the case. He was sending his men into slaughter and probably needed a drink, and it was common practice to shoot at officers in hope of disabling them and causing confusion in enemy ranks.

Similarly, when T. F. Meagher died in Benton, Montana after the war, there was more than one story. The official version is that he was suffering from a fever and fell overboard into the Missouri River from the riverboat on which he was staying. Opposing "true" stories say he was drunk and plunged overboard or that he was murdered by Southern sympathizers who were opposed to his governmental policies in Montana.

[I have a few broadsides about Meagher and will be doing a bit of a story on him for Irish Music magazine in the future. Two songs mentioning him are on the new Folk-Legacy CD, "Irish in America."]

Dick - What constitutes a rhyme in Ireland is different than what constitutes a rhyme in England (or the United States). Martin Ryan, John Moulden and many others could explain far better than I. As far as "The Leaving of Liverpool" is concerned, it was only collected from tradition by Bill Doerflinger so all the other versions you've heard are post-1951 and reflect a modern need to rhyme. Personally, a long conversation I had with Lou Killen on this topic leads me to suspect that Luke Kelly may have been the person who started using "thee" instead of "you." Also, an Irish emigration song, "The Leaving of Limerick" or "The Leaving of Ireland," collected rarely may have been the forerunner of "The Leaving of Liverpool." It uses "you" instead of "thee" as well. (Thanks to Tom Munnelly who put me in touch with that information.)

All the best,
Dan Milner


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Subject: RE: Add: Paddy's Lamentation
From: Brendy
Date: 28 Mar 01 - 06:02 PM

Hope this works!!!:
ã쳌"ã‚"ã쳌«ã쳌¡ã쳌¯ã쳌쳌ã쳌"ã쳌«ã쳌‚ã쳌ªã쳌Ÿã쳌®èµ°è¡Œã쳌®æ°'俗特派å"¡ã쳌‹ã‚‰ã쳌®äººã€…å쳌Šã쳌³å¤§ã쳌쳌 ã쳌„ã쳌"ã‚"ã쳌«ã쳌¡ã쳌¯ã€,

Recorded 'Paddy's Lament' a couple of times, in various guises and incarnations, one of which is here (among others)

The tuning is DAFDAD

B.


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Subject: RE: Add: Paddy's Lamentation
From: Brendy
Date: 28 Mar 01 - 06:05 PM

Didn't work (the text, that is) It was meant to say hello etc., in Chinese.

So much for that!!

B.


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Subject: RE: Add: Paddy's Lamentation
From: MartinRyan
Date: 28 Mar 01 - 06:46 PM

Liam's brother is on the right track, OK, as far as rhyming is concerned. To an Irish ear the war/mur/roar assonance in the chorus is probably more important than the end-of-line rhymes. Some of the Gaelic scholars among us can probably explain why (WRM - is Annraoi still about?).

Regards


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Subject: RE: Add: Paddy's Lamentation
From: Alice
Date: 27 Mar 02 - 11:14 AM


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Subject: Lyr Add: PADDY'S LAMENT
From: Dicho (Frank Staplin)
Date: 27 Mar 02 - 10:25 PM

Lyr. Add: PADDY'S LAMENT

I'm sitthin' on de stbile, Molly, wid a grape shot in my leg,
It's mighty bad de pain is, and I cannot sthir a peg!
Och! I wish I was at home now wid you in Killybig,
Along wid all de spalpeens and de owld cow and de pig!

When Dan O'Connell was alive I bellowed for Repale,
Of de UNION of owld Ireland- but we fought and we did fall,
Now FOR Union I am fighting, and what is my reward?
Why a grape shot Molly, in my calf, which is uncommon hard!

Och! de Rebels dey are savages to sarve poor Paddy so,
For I'm afraid on crutches I must hereafter go,
And when I come back, Molly, to you and to de pig,
I don't think I'll be able to dance the Irish jig!

I wish I was in Ireland and sitthing side by side,
With you. as gay and jolly as when you were my bride,
At home with a shillelagh in a scrimmage I'd delight,
But 'tis different when with bayonets and grape shot that I fight.

Well, goodbye, Molly darlin'- but when peace returns once more,
I'll gladly tread once more again owld Ireland's blessed shore,
And, if 'tis upon crutches I'll dance you a jig,
And we'll be happy wid fe cow and de spalpeens and de pig.

John Ross Dix, published 1864 by Ch. Magnus, New York. From American Memory: Memory
Click on search and enter "Paddy's Lament" to find the songsheet.


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Subject: RE: Add: Paddy's Lamentation
From: GUEST,guest - bigmon kentucky
Date: 08 Jun 02 - 09:29 PM

Hello, I heard this song on a radio broadcast from the 'Thistle and the Shamrock' back in the early-mid 80's. I have always been haunted by it, as the artist's name I did not catch. The arrangement started with a female a'capella, then one or two instruments were added on each chorus. Would anyone have any idea who might have had recorded that arrangement around that time? There was no harmony vocals, but I tell you that voice was beautiful and needed no music. Any help would be appreciated....

One more thing - The reference to Mary Black and the album Album Anthem of DeDanann (1985)... could this be the one I heard?


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Subject: RE: Add: Paddy's Lamentation
From: Brían
Date: 08 Jun 02 - 10:57 PM

There is a darn good chance that Mary Black was the version you heard, because that was the version I remember hearing on The Thistle & Shamrock way back in the 80's.

Brían


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Subject: RE: Add: Paddy's Lamentation
From: GUEST,bigmon
Date: 31 Jul 02 - 11:54 PM

anybody know where I can get a copy of DeDanann "Anthem" CD? Not able to find it so far...


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Subject: RE: Add: Paddy's Lamentation
From: Alice
Date: 01 Aug 02 - 01:01 PM

Bigmon, your description sounds like Mary Black's version. I recorded it all solo voice unaccompanied, the link to audio file is further back in this thread.

ALice


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Subject: RE: Add: Paddy's Lamentation
From: Alice
Date: 31 Oct 02 - 12:17 PM

refresh


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Subject: RE: Add: Paddy's Lamentation
From: David Ingerson
Date: 01 Nov 02 - 12:29 PM

A fine song it is. Now that I see the words for the first time I see I've included some mondagreens in my version. One of them I think I'll keep: Oh the devil I would say got his claws in Americay!

But my version, which I got--I'm at work now and depending totally on 15-year-old memory--from a guy who was some sort of archivist for the RTE folk collection (?)--I'll look up his name when I get home--has this line in it "...and all I've now is a wooden peg, and on my soul, it is the Devil's own invention." I can't see how it's a mondagreen. I'll listen to the tape again but in the meantime, anyone out there heard that line before? I rather like it, myself.

David


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Subject: RE: Add: Paddy's Lamentation
From: David Ingerson
Date: 04 Nov 02 - 11:58 AM

I got the song from Finbarr Boyle (sp?) at the Willie Clancey Festival in 1985. I listened to my tape again and for sure he sings "And on my soul it is the Devil's own invention."

I rarely go back to my notes, transcription, or tape once I have memorized a song and made it my own (stylistically speaking). I don't know if it's laziness or narcissism, but I often find I've folk-processed it in some way. In this case I folk-processed my mondagreen! My transcription reads "Oh the Devil I would say got his [instead of "God's"] curse on Americay." But now I sing "got his claws in A..." I have no idea how that happened or where it came from. curious and curiouser.

Has anyone else heard the "Devil's invention" line? Or is that Finbarr's invention?

David


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Subject: RE: Add: Paddy's Lamentation
From: Declan
Date: 04 Nov 02 - 12:04 PM

David,

You've spelled Finbarr's name correctly (but not Willy Clancy's!)

Finbarr is a great collector of songs and I'd say his version would be as authentic as anyone elses. Variants of many traditional and folk songs exist and this looks like a perfectly good one to me. As far as I know Franke Harte, who's version would have been the source for many of the other recordings mentioned here, including May Black's, sing "The truth to you I mention", but I think the "Devil's own invention" is every bit as good (if not even a better) line in this context.


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Subject: RE: Add: Paddy's Lamentation
From: GUEST,Ard Mhacha
Date: 04 Nov 02 - 12:25 PM

My nephew always one for a wee bit of sleggin`, dropped me in Sinead O`Connor`s new CD and knowing how an oul cynic like me is not overly fond of the O`Connor woman,but I have to houl my hands up and say, she sings "Paddys Lamentation" like an angel.
This CD although it sounds like it was recorded in the Aliwee Caves is good,so "Paddys Lamentation" by the Bishop O`Connor is well worth a listen. Ard Mhacha.


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Subject: RE: Add: Paddy's Lamentation
From: GUEST,pavlina
Date: 04 Nov 02 - 12:48 PM

hiya
   please do you know anybody correct guittar chords for paddy's lamentation?i just addore this song,but i'm not able to find the right chords.thank you for help
                                                 pavlina (prague)


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Subject: RE: Add: Paddy's Lamentation
From: Declan
Date: 04 Nov 02 - 01:05 PM

Pavlina

If you go to the top of this thread to the list of linked threads and click on the first one, and follow the links from there you'll find a set of chords for this song.


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Subject: RE: Add: Paddy's Lamentation
From: David Ingerson
Date: 04 Nov 02 - 06:00 PM

Thanks, Declan, for your added information and well-considered opinion (and for the gentle correction!). My spelling has always been attrocious atrotious atrocious whatever.

David


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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Paddy's Lamentation
From: GUEST,francovation@aol.com
Date: 14 Mar 03 - 03:30 PM

Hi there! do you know the GULF STREAM version?? i'd like to have the exact lyrics. Thanks for your help!


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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Paddy's Lamentation
From: Alice
Date: 14 Mar 03 - 03:57 PM

Just a note, my sound file of Paddy's Lamentation is now on themeadowlark.com where you don't have to sign up for anything or set cookies to hear it:

Click here


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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Paddy's Lamentation
From: GUEST,russellbooks@ukonline.co.uk
Date: 10 Apr 03 - 08:38 PM

does anyone know whether there is any piano accompaniment for this song -- rather than guitar chords?

evelyn kerr


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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Paddy's Lamentation
From: GUEST,whacker
Date: 11 Apr 03 - 08:18 PM

hope nobody minds me buttingin. i got here while tracking down the version by paul brady. i've here this song in a score of irish pubs and as they are usually noisy places it's lucky i already knew the words. but (and this relates to the irish in america thing) once in a pub in boston someone got up and sang a song called kilkelly, in seconds you could have heard a pin drop.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Paddy's Lamentation
From: GUEST,Jim Maloney
Date: 20 Nov 03 - 01:43 AM

I'm getting in late on this forum, but I just heard Mary Black's version on LiveIreland.com, and I thought I'd see what I could find on the web about it. I first heard the song about a year and a half ago, done by Gallowglass, a group from Las Cruces, New Mexico, of all places, and I found it very haunting. Then when I saw "The Gangs of New York," I recognized it in the soudtrack as Leo is watching the Irish men being loaded off a ship and having a gun shoved in their hands. Chilling. You can order the Callowglass version at: http://www.nastycactusmusic.com/gallowcd.htm
Their style ranges from haunting to hilarious, and no, I don't have any connection with them.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Paddy's Lamentation
From: Desert Dancer
Date: 22 Apr 04 - 01:12 PM

Of the various "versions" of By the Hush/Paddy's Lamentation (the variations mentioned are very minor, as far as I can see), are there any that come from tradition other than O.J. Abbott's version collected by Edith Fowke in the Ottawa Valley in Canada?

(The DT cites Ian Robb & Margaret Christl's note on their recording (The Barley Grain for Me, Folk-Legacy CD-62) that it wasn't found in the U.S. in this form, although as Dicho says above it looks like it evolved from a "Paddy's Lamentation" published in New York in 1864.)

Was it found in Ireland other than in recordings made after that (possibly starting with Frank Harte's, and when was that)?

The Canadian version was published on a recording in 1961 (Irish & British Songs of the Ottawa Valley on Folkways FM 4051; the print publication is Fowke, Edith. Traditional Singers and Songs from Ontario, Folklore Associates, Hatboro PA, 1965.

When was the original recording of Abbott made?

I see that only the DT is cited in the Ballad Index; that particular publication of Edith Fowkes's has not yet been indexed there.

~ Becky in Tucson


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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Paddy's Lamentation
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 22 Apr 04 - 02:46 PM

O J Abbott was recorded by Edith Fowke in August 1957. His set of the song also appeared in The Penguin Book of Canadian Folk songs (1973). Roud lists it under number 2314, with at present only one other example, recorded by John Howson from Roisin White (Co Armagh 1991). I don't know where she got it, but the first line quoted suggests perhaps the same source as Frank Harte; Roisin has learned songs both from traditional and revival singers, so it may be from Irish tradition or it may not.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Paddy's Lamentation
From: Desert Dancer
Date: 22 Apr 04 - 02:59 PM

Thanks, Malcolm.

~ Becky


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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Paddy's Lamentation
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 22 Apr 04 - 03:05 PM

Something seldom considered is that penny broadsides were sold on both sides of the Atlantic. Finding a song from Ireland or England in Canada or the States does not mean necessarily that the song was carried verbally by immigrants or sailors. It could have been learned from printed text, and adapted by the singer(s). A single copy could have gone through several hands until it was discarded.

The Bodley and other institutions have large collections, but these broadsides probably represent only a small fraction of the songs that were printed.


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Subject: By the Hush/Paddy's Lamentation distribution
From: Desert Dancer
Date: 22 Apr 04 - 03:49 PM

Well, I'm curious about the contemporary paths these things take (latter 20th century to present), as well as earlier in history. Back in the broadsheet days, a song might exist in tradition, then be put on a broadsheet and that version spread about more than others. Similarly, in the age of electronic media, a recorded version propagates much more rapidly than any other.

I'm wondering if the currently extant versions all arise from the one on the 1961 Canadian recording, that maybe reached Ireland via Frank Harte's recording of it (but I don't yet have the date of his Daybreak and a Candle-end). Is that too much of a stretch?

The "begats" exist, but actually tracing them is not always possible, liner notes being what they are. We do have the advantage of having a lot of those people still around though. :-)

On the older history, there's more in the notes for the 1997 or 1998 cd by Bruce Kincaid, THE IRISH VOLUNTEER, Songs Of The Irish Union Soldier 1861-65.

He says:
The air (melody) is called "Happy Land Of Erin," and the song is one of only two on the album ever previously recorded, therefore having withstood the test of time. This version may have been written post-war, when the government began cutting back on the veteran's pensions, as the lyric might suggest. I have come across another lyric, called "The Son Of Erin's Isle," which judging from the phrasing and the fact that some of passages are identical, is clearly a variant of the same song, yet decidedly more positive toward the Irish involvement in the war. Its chorus reads: "Cheer up, boys, the time will come again, When the sons of old Erin will be steering, And to the land will go o're, They call Columbia's shore, Where there's freedom for the jolly sons of Erin."

~ Becky


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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Paddy's Lamentation
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 22 Apr 04 - 04:01 PM

The song appeared on broadsides as Pat in America, and an edition can be found under that name at  Bodleian Library Broadside Ballads:

Pat in America ("Arragh, bidenahust my boys ..."). The tune prescribed was Happy Land of Erin, and there are examples of that song, too, at the Bodleian:

(A favourite song called) The happy land of Erin


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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Paddy's Lamentation
From: Desert Dancer
Date: 22 Apr 04 - 04:08 PM

Well, that's right on it, Malcolm. Cool. Doesn't eliminate my hypothesis (on the 20th century peregrinations) but weakens it, eh?

~ Becky


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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Paddy's Lamentation
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 22 Apr 04 - 04:23 PM

I'm unclear at the moment on the relationship between The Happy Land of Erin and The Happy Land of Canaan; the latter seems to be a Minstrel piece of the same period, and follows the same metre. Sheet music can be seen at Levy: whether or not it is essentially the same tune I'm not at all sure; nor do I have any real idea which was based on which. The fact that Kincaid identifies the Abbott tune as The Happy Land of Erin doesn't help much, as we don't know yet whether he knew it to be the same or had just assumed from the tune direction that it must be.

The Happy Land of Erin, incidentally, was the tune which Joe Wilson intended for his Sally Wheatley (he spelled it Thae Happy Land of Air-in), though it is usually sung these days to a different tune put to it by Alex Glasgow.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Paddy's Lamentation
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 22 Apr 04 - 05:11 PM

Having looked further at Happy Land of Canaan, I'm sure that it's a variant of the same tune; though very different in flavour from Paddy's Lamentation. I have no idea which is the older form.


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Subject: Lyr Add: PAT IN AMERICA
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 22 Apr 04 - 08:04 PM

Linked by Malcolm Douglas, but since it seems to be the earliest, sometime in the last 40 years of the 19th c, it should be posted.

Lyr. Add: PAT IN AMERICA
Air- Happy Land of Erin

Arragh, bidenahust my boys,
Sure and that is hould your noise,
'Till you hear a simple Paddy's oration;
When at home I was distressed,
And with poverty oppressed,
So I took a thought to leave the Irish nation.

Chorus:
Arragh, do boys, do take my advice,
To America I'd have you not be coming,
For there is nothing here but war,
And the murdering cannon's roar,
Faith I wish I was at home in dear old Erin.

Then I sold my horse and cow,
Sucking pigs and breeding sow,
And with my little farm of land I parted,
And my sweetheart Ann M'Gee,
I'm afraid I'll never see,
For I left her that morning broken hearted.

Then myself and hundreds more,
To America sailed o'er,
My fortune to make I was thinking,
When I reached the Yankee land,
They put a gun into my hand,
Saying Paddy we must go and fight like winking.

General Meagher to us said,
If you're shot or lose your head,
Every man and mother's son will get a pension.
In their war I've lost my leg,
And all I've got's a wooden peg,
Believe me, boys, it's truth to you I mention.

Now I think myself in luck,
To be fed on Indian buck,
In old Ireland the country I delight in,
And to the devil I would say,
With this cursed America,
For truth I've had my full of fighting.

Two copies in the Bodleian, one prined in London by T. Taylor, the other without data.

In an earlier post, it was suggested that the song was written probably within ten years of the end of the war in 1865 because of the talk of pension. A great grandfather of mine received requests for help from former soldiers and their widows long after the war; records were often incomplete and affidavits were needed from former officers of units in which the soldiers served. Without checking dates on the old papers, some were still trying for payments in the 1880s.


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Subject: Lyr/Chords Add: BY THE HUSH, ME BOYS
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 22 Apr 04 - 08:40 PM

Here are the lyrics from Edith Fowke, editor, "The Penguin Book of Canadian Folk Songs."

Lyr. Add: BY THE HUSH, ME BOYS

Oh, it's (Dm)by the hush, me boys,
I'm sure (C)that's to hold your noise,
And (D)listen to poor Paddy's nar(G)ra(A)tion.
I (D)was by hunger pressed and in (C)poverty distressed,
So I (Dm)took a thought I'd (Am)leave the Irish na(D)tion.

Chorus:
(D)Here's you, (D)boys, (F)do take my advice
(A)To A(D)mericay I'd (D)have you not be (G)com(A)ing.
There is (D)nothing here but war
where the (C)murdering cannons roar,
And I (Dm)wish I was at (A)home in dear old (A7)Er(D)eein.

Then I sold by horse and plow, me little pigs and cow,
And me little farm of land and I parted,
And me sweetheart Biddy Magee I'm afeared I'll never see,
For I left her that morning broken-hearted.

Then meself and a hundred more to Americay sailed o'er,
Our fortune to be making we were thinking.
When we landed in Yankee land, shoved a gun into our hand,
Saying, 'Paddy, you must go and fight for Lincoln.'

General Mahar to us said,'If you get shot or lose your head,
Every murdered soul of you will get a pension.'
In the war I lost me leg, all I've now is a wooden peg;
By my soul it is the truth to you I mention.

Now I think meself in luck to be fed upon Indian buck
In old Ireland, the country I delight in,
And with the devil I do say, 'Curse Americay,'
For I'm sure I've got enough of their hard fighting.

Fowke TSSO 52 (Folkways FM 4051)
"O. J. Abbott learned this song from Mrs. O'Malley, wife of an Ottawa Valley farmer for whom he worked back in the 1880s." Possibly learned imperfectly from a broadside of "Pat in America."

With music and chords, pp. 26-27, no. 6, in The Penguin Book of Canadian Folk Songs, ed. Edith Fowke, 1973.


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Subject: Tune Add: BY THE HUSH, ME BOYS
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 23 Apr 04 - 11:44 AM

Here is O J Abbott's tune. If Frank Harte's set derives from it, then it has been noticeably modified.

X:1
T:By the Hush, Me Boys
S:O J Abbott, Ontario, August 1957.
Z:Edith Fowke
B:Edith Fowke, The Penguin Book of Canadian Folk Songs, 1973, 26-27.
N:Roud 2314, Fowke TSSO 52
N:Appears on broadsides as Pat in America.
L:1/8
Q:1/4=100
M:4/4
K:D
D D|D3/2 A/ A A A2 =F A|G3/2 =F/ E D =C2 D2|
w:Oh, it's by the hush, me boys, I'm sure that's to hold your noise,
D F A A A Hd2 A|B A3 z2 (FG)|
w:And lis-ten to poor Pad-dy's nar-ra-tion. I_
A A A B A2 A F|G E E D =C2 D E|
w:was by hun-ger pressed and in po-ver-ty dis-tressed, So I
=F/ F/ F2 D E3/2 A/ A G|E D3 z4|
w:took a thought I'd leave the I-rish na-tion.
"Chorus" D2 D2 d4|A G A B =c2 z E/ E/|
w:Here's you, boys, do take my ad-vice, To A-
D D D D D F A d|B A3 z2 F G|
w:me-ri-cay I'd have you not be com-ing. There is
A/ A3/2 B B A2 A3/2 A/|G/ G/ E E D =C2 D E|
w:no-thing here but war where the mur-der-ing can-nons roar, And I
=F F E D E A A G|E4 D4|]
w:wish I was at home in dear old Er-eein.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Paddy's Lamentation
From: Desert Dancer
Date: 23 Apr 04 - 01:16 PM

Hmm! Interesting. Thanks, again. Makes me grateful once more to the magic of the 'net and the helpful people on it.

Now, I've not heard Frank Harte's rendition, but Ian Robb and Margaret Christl, who should know better, don't quite have the same notes as in that transcription from the Penguin book. (And then, I always wonder how a book transcription compares to the original.) The midi in the DT is also slightly different from either of them. Can anyone tell, is that from Frank Harte's version?

Here's an interesting comment from another thread on the song (Chord Req: Paddy's Lamentation)

From: lamarca
Date: 31 Oct 02 - 11:42 AM

The song (and tune) were collected from O. J. Abbott in the Ottawa Valley by Edith Foulk [sic]. The tune he used has some really neat twists and intervals that Irish revival musicians have sort of smoothed out. One of the better renditions that's close to Mr. Abbott's is by Frank Harte, a capella. Ian Robb and Margaret Christl perform it on their Folk Legacy album, but make the tempo entirely too bouncy for my taste.


She may be making assumptions about provenance, though.

All in all, we've lots more and better information assembled than we started with!

~ Becky in Tucson


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Subject: Tune Add: THE HAPPY LAND OF CANAAN
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 23 Apr 04 - 10:33 PM

Thanks to Elizabeth Hummel on the Ballad-L list, we now know that Roisin White learned the song from Frank Harte; where he got it remains to be seen.

There is another edition of Pat in America at the Bodleian, which I missed earlier as it didn't specify a tune; it was printed by T. Taylor of Spitalfields, London, "between 1859 and 1899":

Pat in America

The Happy Land of Canaan spawned a whole series of songs, apparently dealing mainly with the American Civil War, and very much in the Minstrel Show style. The earliest certain date I've found is 1860, and both Canaan and Erin show up in the same time-frame (the latter only in Irish and English broadsides so far), so I wouldn't like to guess at which was the earlier; though Canaan seems perhaps to have the edge at the moment. Here is the tune for the set at the  Lester Levy Sheet Music Collection. It's recognisably a close relative of O J Abbott's tune, but a great deal faster.


X:2
T:The Happy Land of Canaan
C:"William A. Wray of the Original Campbell Minstrels."
B:Sheetmusic. Campbell Publication: Cincinnati: John Church, Jr., 1860.
N:Levy Sheet Music Collection: Box 024 Item 032
N:Roud 7705
L:1/8
Q:1/4=100
M:2/4
K:F
F|F Hz/ c/ c/ c/ Hz/ A/|B3/4 A/4 F3/4 F/4 E3/2 c/|
w:White folks at-ten-tion a song I'll sing to you, 'Bout
c3/4 =B/4 c/ d/ _e G3/4 G/4|G/ F/ z z A/ B/|c/ c/ c/ c/ c c3/4 A/4|
w:matters and things that we are en-gag-ing, I will tell you in these times In a
B/ A/ G/ F/ (E/ C/) F/ G/|c c/ A/ G/ c/ B/ G/|
w:few and sim-ple rhymes,_ Caze I'm rite from de hap-py land of
F2 F2|"Chorus" F f f2|c c/ d/ _e3/2 E/|
w:Can-nan. Oh, oh, oh, ae. ae. ae, ah, the
E E/ E/ e/ e/ e/ d/|d/ c3/2 z A|c/ c/ c/ c/ c/ c/ A/ A/|
w:day ob de pen-ti-cost am com-ing, So neb-ber mind de wed-der, But get
B/ A/ G/ F/ E/ C/ F/ G/|A A/ F/ G/ c/ B/ G/|F2 F|]
w:ob-er doub-le troub-le, Caze I'm rite from de hap-py land of Can-nan.

Some of the Civil War buffs round here may be able to provide more information on Canaan and its various permutations. (There is a Trinidadian Spiritual Baptist song by the same name, but it appears to be entirely unrelated.)


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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Paddy's Lamentation
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 24 Apr 04 - 01:31 PM

The "Pat in America" I reproduced in a posting, above, from the Bodleian is the one linked by Malcolm Douglas in his last post. Sorry, I forgot to put the data- Harding B11 (2964), Taylor, Spitalfields, n. d.


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Subject: Lyr. Add: THE LAMENT OF THE IRISH IMIGRANT
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 29 Jun 05 - 01:24 PM

Lyr. Add: The Lament of the Irish Imigrant (1843)
Words Mrs. Price Blackwood, Music Wm. R. Dempster

I'm sitting on the stile Mary,
Where we sat side by side,
On a bright May morning long ago,
When first you were my bride.
The corn was springing fresh and green,
And the lark sang loud and high,
And the red was on thy lip Mary
and the love light in your eye.

The place is little chang'd, Mary
The day is bright as then;
The lark's loud song is in my ear,
And the corn is green again!
But I miss the soft clasp of your hand,
And your breath warm on my cheek,
And I still keep list'ning for the words,
You never more may speak,
And I still keep list'ning for the words
You never more may speak.

'Tis but a step down yonder lane,
And the little church stands near,
The church where we were wed, Mary,
I see the spire from here:
But the graveyard lies between, Mary,
And my step might break your rest,
For I've laid you darling down to sleep,
With your baby on your breast.
For I've laid you darling down to sleep,
With your baby on your breast.

I'm very lonely now, Mary,
For the poor make no new friends,
But Oh! they love them better far,
The few our father sends!
And you were all I had, Mary,
My blessing and my pride;
There's nothing left to care for now,
Since my poor Mary died,
There's nothing left to care for now,
Since my poor Mary died.

Your's was the brave good heart, Mary,
That still kept hoping on,
When the trust in God had left my soul,
And my arm's young strength had gone;
There was comfort ever on your lip,
And the kind look on your brow;
I bless you for that same, Mary,
Though you can't hear me now.

I thank you for that patient smile,
When your heart was fit to break,
When the hunger pain was gnawing there,
And you hid it, for my sake.
I bless you for the pleasant word,
When your heart was sad and sore;
Oh I'm thankful you are gone, Mary,
Where grief can't reach you more.

I'm bidding you a long farewell,
My Mary, kind and true,
But I'll not forget you darling,
In the land I'm going to,
They say there's bread and work for all,
And the sun shines always there;
But I'll not forget old Ireland,
Were* it fifty times as fair.

And often in these grand old woods,
I'll sit and shut my eyes,
And my heart will travel back again,
To the place where Mary lies,
And I'll think I see the little stile,
Where we sat side by side;
And the springing corn, and the bright May morn,
When first you were my bride.

Sheet music first published in America in 1843 by Geo. P. Reed, Boston. Reprinted in 1863 by Henry Tolman & Co., Boston *where in the sheet music).
Poetry by the Hon. Mrs Price Blackwood (Irish poet) and music by William R. Dempster, Scottish singer and poet.
See American Memory, Greatest Hits 1820-1860 (Variety Music Cavalcade), 1843- The Lament of the Irish Emigrant: Greatest Hits
Sheet music; Historic American Sheet Music, 8 pp.: http://scriptorium.lib.duke.edu/sheetmusic/a/a50/a5014/a5014-2-72dpi.html

This lament about the Irish famine is far superior to revisions and parodies published later at the time of the American Civil War (see "Paddy's Lament" by John Ross Dix, song sheet, in post by Dicho, 27 Mar 02). Also see the quite different Canadian and American song, "By the Hush, Me Boys," also posted above, 22 Apr 04).

Wm. R. Dempster performed in America; his singing was praised by John Greenleaf Whittier. He also composed music to Burn's "A Man's a Man for A' That."


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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Paddy's Lamentation
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 29 Jun 05 - 04:06 PM

Oh My! I always confuse the spellings of Immigrant and Emigrant. Of course the title of the song is "The Lament of the Irish EMIGRANT."

Mrs Price Blackwood, 1807-1867, (Selina Sheridan), author of "The Lament of the Irish Emigrant," was a granddaughter of R. B. Sheridan, the well-known author.
She married Commander Price Blackwood, afterwards Lord Dufferin and Clandeboy.
In addition to the "Irish Emigrant, she wrote other poems and the book, "By-Gone Hours," (also a song by the same name pub. by Chappell).

I apologise for my mis-spelling of 'EMIGRANT.'


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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Paddy's Lamentation
From: GUEST,mike maclellan
Date: 02 Sep 05 - 09:17 AM

i'm soo happy to have stumbled upon this site with its wealth of info on this song.i only heard it once before on cbc radio and was floored by its beauty.actually, i had heard it before if indeed it's featured in "the gangs of new york",one of my favorite movies.i'm looking to find it online so i can learn the air.i'm just jonesin' to learn it on my guitar.
thanks in advance for the help.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Paddy's Lamentation
From: Severn
Date: 02 Sep 05 - 10:19 AM

Some Civil War re-enactor campfire late night parody lines:

"...And to the women, I do say
Don't go sell for Mary Kay
For there'll be no making up
After the fighting."


"....General Meagher to us said,
'If you're sick, but short of dead,
Our physicians' staff will give you prompt attention.'
Now where my arm was, there's a leg,
And in my heart they've put a peg,
As any barbershop quartet will surely mention."


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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Paddy's Lamentation
From: Desert Dancer
Date: 18 Oct 11 - 04:18 PM

Regarding some of the events behind the song --

"Return of the 69th (Irish) Regiment, N.Y.S.M. From the Seat of War", a painting by Louis Lang, has recently been restored and will be on display starting November 11 (Veteran's Day) at the New York Historical Society Museum when it reopens.

The New York Times says about it: "Huge, detailed and colorful, it comes from an era when paintings were expressive and descriptive, tools not only to evoke emotions, but also to do the very real work of simply documenting and recounting history. "

"Early on the morning of July 27, 1861, the Irish brigade of New York's 69th Regiment returned From the First Battle of Bull Run, landing by steamboat at what is now Battery Park"

"The painting captures a moment in Civil War history, when the Irish rose to defend the Union and were lauded as heroes. Their joyful homecoming, however, was followed by the 1863 Draft Riots, blamed largely on the Irish."

Another site, with images that show detail from the painting.

"Endurance and pluck", an article from the Irish Times.

The NY Historical Society's eMuseum notes on the painting

NY Historical Society page on the exhibit that will include the painting: "Making American Taste: Narrative Art for a New Democracy"

~ Becky in Tucson


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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Paddy's Lamentation
From: GUEST
Date: 20 May 18 - 11:25 AM

Was looking for a setting closer to the one I learnt by ear many yrs ago from a recording.
Come and sigh and hush me boys
And be mournful tonight,
And listen to poor paddys lamentation
Etc
Does that ring a bell with anyone?


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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Paddy's Lamentation
From: Lighter
Date: 20 May 18 - 12:21 PM

The meaning of "Indian buck" came up earlier on the thread. A contributor suggested that maize was meant.

But the OED shows that "buck" was formerly a synonym for "buckwheat." It notes helpfully that while buckwheat cakes are eaten for breakfast in America, "The seed is in Europe used as food for horses, cattle, and poultry."

Perhaps the sense of the words is "I'd think myself lucky to be fed on animal fodder like buckwheat, as long as it was happening in Ireland (and not here)."

Just a guess, but I'm not at all sure of the relevance of "Indian." Did Ireland import buckwheat from India for use as fodder? (Reference to American Indians seems equally difficult to explain.)


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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Paddy's Lamentation
From: GUEST,Mick Pearce (MCP)
Date: 20 May 18 - 12:51 PM

See: Thomas Kineally Three Famines: Starvation and Politics - ch14. (go up one page from the link)

"They saw there would be a need for further government intervention above the Indian maize Peel had brought...By January 1846 the first of the Indian corn from North America, the same that in the southern United States produced the food called hominy, began to reach the Irish ports...Unlike the corn grown in Ireland, the Indian corn was so hard to crack that it should rightly have been chopped in steel mills, but there were no such mills in Ireland. It was very difficult to cook and, if not properly done, could cause bowel disorders... <section on pamphlet on preparation - days of work!>...This difficulty of its preparation and the inappropriateness of the food to the necessity derived from a belief that would be evident in the Bengal famine as well: relief food must be made troublesome and unsavoury to ensure that people did not lightly have recourse to it. It was tested with the inmates of some of the workhouses, who refused to touch it...The maize was sold to the Irish at cost price at first, and later for a little more than that...The Irish had various names for the corn - min deirce, beggar's meal, Indian buck, or, as previously described, 'Peel's brimstone'.

Mick


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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Paddy's Lamentation
From: Lighter
Date: 20 May 18 - 02:43 PM

Thanks, Mick, for another very helpful post.

However...

A search of the hundreds of millions of pages available through Google Books back to before 1800 shows only *one* example (aside from Abbott/Fowke) of "Indian buck" as some sort of food. Nor does it appear the HathiTrust Digital Library or in the various newspaper databases I've consulted, including one devoted to the Civil War.

Nor does "Indian buck" appear in either the OED or the English (including Hiberno-English) Dialect Dictionary.

And the *one* finadable example is Keneally's (writing in 2010)!

It *looks* as though he came upon "Indian buck" in the song and, puzzled, jumped to the conclusion that it meant "maize"; or that his source (not listed, so far as I can tell from Google Books) had jumped previously to that conclusion.

Of course, the song's writer, straining for a rhyme, might himself have invented "Indian buck" as an ad-hoc synonym for "Indian corn" or, in his own mind, "tough Indian venison taken from buck deer." Either would easily explain the dearth of other examples.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Paddy's Lamentation
From: GUEST,Mick Pearce (MCP)
Date: 20 May 18 - 03:31 PM

There are some other references, none early though.

Just The Way It Was: Tommy Dan Tims Derrinageer, Ballinaglera A true story of a traditional farm life in County Leitrim, Ireland - 2007 (according to amazon): The corn meal was called Indian buck. It was good for the chickens and we could also make porridge from it

A bit earlier is this 1940s publication quoting The Cornell Countryman of 1922 Corn in the development of the civilization of the Americas : a selected and annotated bibliography (p6)! The Indian 'Buck' corn was planted by the pioneer whites and became our 'York State Flint,' and it was the sight of this corn growing six feet high on the banks of the Susquehanna that induced the members of the Sullivan expedition to sell their military grants to enter what is now Tioga, Chemung, Broome, and Tompkins
Counties.


There's also a reference in the Ballad Index to an alternative title for Bad Luck Attend the Old Farmer, but again no idea how old the reference is. It was collected in 1980 in Fermanagh, Northern Ireland.

Nothing definite before the song era as you say.

Mick


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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Paddy's Lamentation
From: meself
Date: 20 May 18 - 09:03 PM

That's good enough for me!


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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Paddy's Lamentation
From: Lighter
Date: 20 May 18 - 09:35 PM

Mick, I can't understand why these references didn't appear to me when I searched Google Books. However, I've checked via the links, and they are perfectly legitimate. You have my gratitude

It's especially surprising to see "Indian 'Buck' corn" in use in the U.S. - even if the Irish song was made here.

It would now obviously be pedantic and perverse to insist that "Indian buck" in the song refers to anything other than cornmeal, even though the song is at least 60 years earlier than the next earliest example. To say that it does not would seem to be stretching coincidence beyond the breaking point.

Overall, though, it must have been a very rare regional term. It isn't in the multi-volume, seemingly exhaustive Dictionary of American Regional English either.

(For now, I'll stick with my suggestion that "buck" meant "buckwheat." Clearly it was meant figuratively when applied to (coarsely ground) cornmeal, presumably the Native American equivalent of animal fodder fed to people.)


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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Paddy's Lamentation
From: Lighter
Date: 20 May 18 - 09:38 PM

Of course I meant to write "to say that it does" (refer to something else).

Hasty last-minute editing.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Paddy's Lamentation
From: meself
Date: 20 May 18 - 11:09 PM

Of course, the 'Indian buck' in the song is in old Ireland, the country I delight in, and pointedly not in North America. But then, in at least one of Mick's quotes, it's associated with North America ....


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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Paddy's Lamentation
From: GUEST,Mick Pearce (MCP)
Date: 21 May 18 - 05:57 AM

Lighter

For the searches I used "Indian buck" food and "Indian buck" maize. Archive.org I often text search directly; it seems more reliable than google for the texts there.

It's still possible that the song is the origin of the term. The gap to the 1920s seems long to find no references. (There is a reference to Indian buckwheat from 1884 in A dictionary of English names of plants applied in England and among English-speaking people to cultivated and wild plants, trees, and shrubs" (p233). Maybe the writer just contracted Indian buckwheat for the rhyme).


There's another Irish reference to the term in some local recollections: Local Happenings. It's transcribed there "There was a plague of Cholera in this district, supposed to have happened after the Famine. The cause it is said was, that the people got nothing to eat except "indian mean porridge and the women didn't know how to cook it. It wasn't boiled enough. The old people call Indian meal porridge "Indian buck". I can't find a date for the document, but I think might be recent. The term does seem to be known in Ireland though.


I've now found an earlier reference to an Indian buck-bean. 1822: Curtis's Botanical Magazine, Volume 42 has the entry on p84:

June 198 Menianthes indica Indian Buck-bean

This appears to be a wetland flower of some kind, not maize, also known as bogbean. It appears to have some medicinal uses Bogbean-buckbean.

It's possible the writer of the song knew this term (again I haven't checked how popular it was) and found it a useful rhyme, though the context seems to indicate that a food was intended in the song.


The other song I mentioned, The Ingy Buck, has lyrics and the use of the term in this article on mustrad: The Hardy Sons Of Dan.


Mick


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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Paddy's Lamentation
From: Sean Fear
Date: 21 May 18 - 06:37 AM

“By the hush" is a corruption of the Irish "bí i do thost", or be in your silence "be quiet"
Indian buck refers to the corn Lord Trevelyan imported during the Great Hunger to feed starving Irish. It is what we now call field corn, animal fodder which is largely indigestible by humans.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Paddy's Lamentation
From: GUEST,Mick Pearce (MCP)
Date: 21 May 18 - 10:42 AM

Sean

We all know what Indian buck is in the time after the song. The question Lighter is exploring is did the term originate before the song. References to the term "Indian buck" (outside of the song) are few and far between.

Origin of phrase "By the hush" was posted above by McGrath in post of 13 May 98 - 02:10 PM.

Mick


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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Paddy's Lamentation
From: Lighter
Date: 21 May 18 - 04:31 PM

More great research, Mick.

But I do doubt that the phrase originated in the song, if for no other reason than the song seems not to have been very well known.

Further conjecture is probably not useful, but it may be that "Indian buck" was once far better known than it has been since the 1860s. While plenty of rural Irish words and phrases are recorded in earlier literature, there's no reason to assume that every last one appeared in print, or has been discovered if it did.

About all we can say is that "Indian buck" almost certainly meant "cornmeal" in Ireland in the 1860s, as it has more recently, but that one could easily have lived a long and productive life any time over the past 150 years without ever encountering it.

In other words, it is and was very rare.

The dialect dictionaries are filled with such terms. Neologisms don't always spread far..

The extreme case of "Boontling" in California is not entirely comparable, but you may find it diverting:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boontling


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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Paddy's Lamentation
From: meself
Date: 21 May 18 - 07:02 PM

Diverting?! Diverted me for about twenty minutes... ! Funny, I recognized a couple of those words as general slang - I wonder how many others were just slang terms they had picked up and incorporated into their Boontling ...


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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Paddy's Lamentation
From: michaelr
Date: 21 May 18 - 08:41 PM

Boontling? There's a term few Irish would know. I happen to live not far from Boonville, California, where that was a local, made-up language.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Paddy's Lamentation
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Jun 18 - 10:22 AM

Frank Harte explains on the sleeve notes, "The title of the song is a corruption of an Irish phrase Bí i do thost or be quiet which in fact is translated in the first line of the song......Well, it's by the hush, me boys and that's to make no noise".

I've been watching the Scandi-noir series "The Bridge". which is in Swedish with subtitles, and one of the characters said something very similar to "thost" for "be quiet". I've also noticed the Swedish word for good is "bra", which is the same word in Irish, as in "Erin go bra".
It got me thinking about the possible Scandinavian influence on the Irish language, which of course would have come from the Vikings. Does anyone have any other examples of this?


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