Help: Is Folk music in England Celtic?

Subject: RE: Help: Is Folk music in England Celtic?
From: pavane
Date: 30 Aug 02 - 11:42 AM

Guest, does this mean that a song set in China would be classed as Chinese, even if written by, say, a Dutchman? That puzzles me.

(By the way, I am not anti-Irish, and I really enjoy my occasional visits. And nor do I accuse anyone of CLAIMING songs. It is usually a matter of incorrect attribution by others)

Subject: RE: Help: Is Folk music in England Celtic?
From: Dicho (Frank Staplin)
Date: 29 Aug 02 - 06:01 PM

As ddw responded, you opened a can of worms. Just mention the word C--tic and everyone starts brandishing their celts. Rational responses not accepted!

Subject: RE: Help: Is Folk music in England Celtic?
From: jimmyt
Date: 29 Aug 02 - 04:56 PM

Boy do you people get distracted from the original intent. I asked a simple (apparently Stupid) question, and the flames of nationalism have been fanned by not only both sides of the Atlantic, but both sides of the Irish Sea.

Subject: RE: Help: Is Folk music in England Celtic?
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Aug 02 - 04:41 PM

i'd just like to clear a few things up....

1) pavane: the Curragh of Kildare was written by Robbie Burnes, a scottish poet and arranged into the version currently sung today. it was arranged by Donal Lunny, an irishman and Christy Moore, another irishman and talented irish musician/performer. it is about a man who is soldiering on the Curragh, a place in Ireland. so it is classified as an Irish song.

2) Orac: We do NOT try to ''claim ownership on everything'', and frankly i am quite disgusted with your narrow-minded comment. the reason that Irish music books are sold with lots of different types of music combined is because the music thats played in Irish pubs is about 70% irish 30% assorted! the books give a braodened array of music which is performed in Ireland!we do not claim to ''own'' any type of music!! secondly, most Irish songs are not written by Americans, they are passed on through Irish people.Ireland is a truly great country, which most people who have been here would agree. yes it has its faults, but you try tell me one place that doesnt??!!

and finaly would you like to explain to me what problem you seen to have with living in ireland??

Subject: RE: Help: Is Folk music in England Celtic?
From: Dicho (Frank Staplin)
Date: 29 Aug 02 - 04:34 PM

Oxford English Dictionary- Celtic: "A general name applied in modern times to people speaking languages akin to those of the ancient Galli, including the Bretons in France, the Cornish, Welsh, Irish, Manx and Gaelic of the British Isles."

Pronunciation according to the Oxford English Dictionary: "Celt (selt), also Kelt (kelt)." From Latin Celtae.

Now what should be the collective name for the music of these peoples? Ukranian??? Sino-Japanese??? Or just perhaps Celtic?

This thread is possibly number one hundred and ought six on this subject.

Subject: RE: Help: Is Folk music in England Celtic?
From: smallpiper
Date: 29 Aug 02 - 03:22 PM

Ah bugger well I'd just come back from the pub and my memory was somewhat sozzled but I take your correction. Thank you!

Subject: RE: Help: Is Folk music in England Celtic?
From: Don Firth
Date: 29 Aug 02 - 02:58 PM

Maybe that explains the "Boston Celtics" (SELL-ticks). When they come up in the sports news, that always sets my teeth on edge.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: Help: Is Folk music in England Celtic?
From: Nerd
Date: 29 Aug 02 - 02:43 PM

Pavane and Smallpiper:

A certain type of ancient stone axe is called a "celt," with a soft c (pronounced "selt") but I don't think it's named after the peoples, who were called "Keltoi" by the greeks, and hence the word.

Pottery has been used to define ancient peoples, but the "La Penne" referred to is actually La Tene, and it is an archaeological site in Switzerland characterized mainly by beautiful decorative metalwork. It is for this metalwork that the Celts of this period are now famous in archaeology circles.

Subject: RE: Help: Is Folk music in England Celtic?
From: Sibelius
Date: 29 Aug 02 - 02:37 PM

Given the centuries of cross-fertilisation that others have referred to, can it be possible to pinpoint the origins of a piece of traditional music in the British Isles any more precisely than Jane Bird's 'fair guess'? You might as well take a cubic yard of brine out of the Irish Sea and try to deduce where all the water molecules started out.

American Folkie/anon guest's stuff about "virulent nationalist sentiments among many English traditional folk" is unhelpful to say the least. I presume you're using the word 'folk' to mean 'people' in this context, AF? I'd be interested, in that case, to read your definition of "English traditional folk", given that this whole thread has failed (unsurprisingly) even to establish any agreement about what we mean by 'English', never mind 'Celtic'.

Are you saying, AF, that it's only English nationalists who attach themselves to what they perceive as their own music to make a political or racist statement? No Scot or Irishman ever did that?

I'd also be fascinated to read some of these on-line folk music forums you refer to, dominated by English nationalists. Name some sites, AF, please.

Now there's a thought; any of you virulent English nationalists ever come across the BNP trying to infiltrate your Morris side?

Subject: RE: Help: Is Folk music in England Celtic?
From: smallpiper
Date: 29 Aug 02 - 02:17 PM

Na it was pottery La penne II I believe

Subject: RE: Help: Is Folk music in England Celtic?
From: pavane
Date: 29 Aug 02 - 02:04 PM

To return to a previous point, here is a link to the 'Barking' version of Black Velvet Band, in the Bodleian Ballad library

Black velvet band

I had always understood that the Celts were named after a distinctive type of axe found at their sites, and by their language which has left traces in placenames throughout Europe.

Subject: RE: Help: Is Folk music in England Celtic?
From: greg stephens
Date: 29 Aug 02 - 01:54 PM

Dont bother about our familiar anonymous GUEST.He is only trying to derail an interesting discussion, so ignore it. A subject, incidentally, I would like to add to; but I'm jetlagged and sorting out post-holiday piled up business so I'll stay out of this (for once!)

Subject: RE: Help: Is Folk music in England Celtic?
From: smallpiper
Date: 29 Aug 02 - 01:45 PM

Now we should all duck as our revered guest is bound to throw something dangerous in response to that!

Subject: RE: Help: Is Folk music in England Celtic?
From: smallpiper
Date: 29 Aug 02 - 01:44 PM

I think Guest/american folkie that it is you that is being racist. You have consistantly demonstrated, in this and other threads, that in your opinion all other cultures are some what less than the Irish culture and do not in your opinion deserve space. Yes you dress it up as defense of Irish culture but what right do you, an American, have to make comments on the culture in the UK. Butt out as you colonials would say!

Subject: RE: Help: Is Folk music in England Celtic?
From: Desert Dancer
Date: 29 Aug 02 - 01:26 PM

jimmyt, there's plenty of Morris dancing on this side of the pond. NEFFA (the New England Folk Festival), in Natick, Mass. in April is a good spot to see some. I know there are other 'Catters who can offer more advice, or check the links here.

(Sorry for contributing to the drift...)

Subject: RE: Help: Is Folk music in England Celtic?
From: Noreen
Date: 29 Aug 02 - 01:20 PM

jimmyt,

come over in the festival season and spend a week at Whitby Folk Festival (just finished for this year)- you'll see all varieties of Morris and hear all varieties of music and song, and can take part in workshops to learn more about them. And you'll have a wonderful time!

At Whitby and at Sidmouth, the official events in the program included Irish music sesions and English music sessions, so yes, there is a recognised distinction in practice, though there will be some overlap.

Subject: RE: Help: Is Folk music in England Celtic?
From: Nerd
Date: 29 Aug 02 - 01:05 PM

I agree with JTT's summary of the Celts generally, but it's not the Basques who are often included in the category. It's the Galicians, from northwestern Spain. Galicia (like much of Europe) once had a Celtic-speaking population, and this can be seen in place names and other linguistic traces. But the language they now speak is basically a Latinate language close to Spanish and Portuguese (referred to as Gallego or Gallego-Portugues). I think it's silly to refer to Galicia as a Celtic province, otherwise most of Europe would be Celtic too.

Most scholars of modern Celtic cultures restrict the meaning of Celtic to a language group. If it refers to people, it refers to those who speak (or whose ancestors in last generation or two spoke) a Celtic language. Archaeologists looking at ancient sites will add certain styles of metalwork, burial practices, etc, to their meanings of Celtic. All scholars recognize that language and cultural forms can be passed among people not genetically related, so no scholar would argue that all speakers of Celtic language share genetic heritage. The DNA studies in this sense are kind of a red herring. BUT, at the same time, there is some probability that many of the people sharing these cultural traits also shared genetic traits, for all the obvious reasons.

As to Celtic Music, it is tempting to say, as Curmudgeon has said, that the idea of Celtic Music originated with record producers who wanted to market music. But this is untrue. People referred to music and culture as Celtic before records existed. In general, the term was first applied by nationalists of the various celtic countries (and their diasporas) making an argument that their cultures were different and valuable, using the word celtic to set them apart from the popular culture around them.

Does Celtic Music exist? Sure! It's a popular music style based on Irish, Scottish, Welsh, etc... folk music. Is English folk music different? Yes, but it's related because there has been a strong mutual influence going back hundreds of years. Is this politically controversial? I don't see why it should be; though of course the nature of the influence is tied to much political controversy, one can't deny the influence itself.

Subject: RE: Help: Is Folk music in England Celtic?
From: Mary Humphreys
Date: 29 Aug 02 - 12:42 PM

Kevin !

Eureka!

I always knew that I had heard the tune before, but couldn't put my finger on it. Another little niggle is cleared up.

By the way, did you know that Bert Lloyd - always a man with an ear for a good tune - used the Welsh tune for 'Lisa Lan' in his 'I am a hand-weaver to my trade' song- reconstructed from an Oldham broadside ballad, I believe. Maybe next time I'm at the Old R&C I will sing the Welsh version...

Subject: RE: Help: Is Folk music in England Celtic?
From: Don Firth
Date: 29 Aug 02 - 12:36 PM

Hmm. Sounds to me like the word "Celtic" in relation to music has gone the way of "Bluegrass," which, to a large number of people, has come to mean "anything with a banjo in it."

Don Firth

Subject: RE: Help: Is Folk music in England Celtic?
From: GUEST,Kevin Sheils
Date: 29 Aug 02 - 12:23 PM

And following Mary H's comment on the Norfolk (Harry Cox) songs, Another Norfolk link is with Sam Larner's song "Napoleon's Dream" clearly as sung an English song (I don't know of an Irish version) but the tune Sam simgs is strongly related to "The Minstrel Boy"

Kevin

Subject: RE: Help: Is Folk music in England Celtic?
From: GUEST,Jane Bird
Date: 29 Aug 02 - 12:20 PM

American Folkie/anon guest,

You say, "This thread shows just how deep and virulent the nationalist sentiments run among many English traditional folk."

Is that really what you believe, or are you being provocative? I think that this thread shows that a lot of people are somewhat clear on their ancient history (me included), not that lots of us who are interested in English traditional music are making unpleasant value judgements about people from areas of the Europe commonly refered to as Celtic.

The comments about different DNA strains and concrentrations in particular areas suggest an interest in human history, not necessarily a prejudice about "other" people.

Jane

Subject: RE: Help: Is Folk music in England Celtic?
From: Pied Piper
Date: 29 Aug 02 - 12:15 PM

Hi Jimmyt. I live in Manchester and if your in our neck of the woods you will find some friendly eclectic pub sessions. At the "Peveril of the peak" Great Bridgwater St(just round the corner from the Bridgwater Hall) you'll find a regular session on Tuesdays nights, starting at 8:00pm. The music we play depends to some extent who's there, but basically there is a nucleus of IRISH Jigs, Reels, Hornpipes and Polkas( quite allot of O'Caralan), SCOTTISH Strathspays and Reels, SHETLAND Fiddle stuff, ENGLISH country dance and Morris tunes, Northumberland smallpipe repertoire, AMERICAN old Time,CAJUN, FRENCH CANADIAN, KLEZMA, and even GREEK Palia rembetika. This looks like I just made it up but I assure you its the truth. All the best PP.

Subject: RE: Help: Is Folk music in England Celtic?
From: Ringer
Date: 29 Aug 02 - 12:02 PM

Just being picky, Mrs Duck, but I believe the Morris traditions are regional. That modern sides pick dances from a number of traditions means that modern Morris may not be regional, but the traditions are. IMHO, of course.

And don't forget the Lichfield tradition (whence, among others, Vandals of Hammerwich).

Subject: RE: Help: Is Folk music in England Celtic?
From: GUEST,Jane Bird
Date: 29 Aug 02 - 11:57 AM

Finding session when in England.

Get hold of a copy of the local folk magazine (Tykes News in Yorks, Univcorn in Herts, Beds, Cambs sort of area, Shire Folk in the South Midlands), and look up the sessions listings.

Better still, say where you're going, and ask some the Mudcatters.

Jane

Subject: RE: Help: Is Folk music in England Celtic?
From: jimmyt
Date: 29 Aug 02 - 11:45 AM

Mrs. Duck and others with session experience.

Thanks for the input, now how do I go about finding these sessions when I travel to England? I have always managed to find traditional music in Ireland, and lucked on a couple times in Scotland, but I have to say, never in England. I would love to experience Traditional musac as well as Morris Dancing( I promise not to join in in either case for you cross-over people from the "are sessions elitist" Thread!) I try to seek out folk music whereever I travel. This weekend I will be in Asheville North Carolina, and hope to find some music.

Subject: RE: Help: Is Folk music in England Celtic?
From: Mrs.Duck
Date: 29 Aug 02 - 11:34 AM

Well Jimmy just like music morris dancing is also different according to which tradition (originally regional but now not so) the dancers are using. There is Cotswold (probably what you will have seen in the magazines) North West, Border, Molly, Longsword, Rapper Plough stots and probably some I haven't tried yet but there are also regional differences within each type as well just to add to the fun!!

Subject: RE: Help: Is Folk music in England Celtic?
From: GUEST,jimmyt
Date: 29 Aug 02 - 10:15 AM

Yes, that clears up a lot, Jane. Thank you for your help. Now, if we, in the states , just knew what the heck Morris dancing was, We'd be all set! I have never encountered this art form in 10 trips to Britain, but I have seen photos in In Britain Magazine of Morris Dancers, and I will have to tell you ,it appears to be a rather strange phenomenon!

Subject: RE: Help: Is Folk music in England Celtic?
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Aug 02 - 09:59 AM

This thread is a wonderful example of what I (American Folkie/anon guest) have been saying in the "Are Sessions Elitist" thread. The ridiculous and outrageous claims about Celtic music, language, and culture being made by supporters of English traditional music isn't just nationalistic, but when you get down to the level of the DNA studies, it is downright racist.

This thread shows just how deep and virulent the nationalist sentiments run among many English traditional folk.

The term Celtic has been explained succinctly by Guest Bill Kennedy, Guest JTT, and Guest Boab. Celtic Studies enjoys widespread support for research in the most prestigious universities around the world, but is strongest in Britain. So how is it that the English nationalists who dominate so many folk music forums online can remain so ignorant of the basic facts of life about the neighbors they share their country, not to mention their music traditions with?

Subject: RE: Help: Is Folk music in England Celtic?
From: GUEST,Jane Bird
Date: 29 Aug 02 - 09:56 AM

To have a go at answering the original question: it varies depending on where you are, and which session you're playing in.

For instance, there's quite a strong Irish scene in certain parts of England, especially where there has historically been a lot of Irish immigration in the last century. London, Liverpool and Manchester spring to mind.

Around where I have lived in the past ten years (East Anglia, N Yorks and Bucks) I've been playing in sessions where it is predominantly English styles of music which are played (but then I have been hanging round with a bunch of morris dancers). But as has already been pointed out, over the past few hundred years, there has been a lot of cross fertilisation between styles found in the UK and Ireland. "Woodland Flowers", made so famous by Dartmoor melodeon player Bob Cann, is one of Jimmy Shand's tunes, I'm told!

There are musical styles which are considered characteristically English (not exclusively so), but there's a lot of regional variation. So yes, it is possible to walk into a session, listen to a few tunes, and have a fair guess at whether or not the tunes are mainly English in style.

Fair comment?

Jane

Subject: RE: Help: Is Folk music in England Celtic?
From: GUEST,Bill Kennedy
Date: 29 Aug 02 - 09:30 AM

Pardon me folks, but Irish, Cornish, Welsh & Manx are Celtic languages. The Celts were in the Islands long before the Teutonic and Norse peoples arrived. The bardic tradition, the druidic tradition all come from Celtic Europe. The Vikings had little actual influence on Irish culture, the Picts were in Scotland already, but largely subsumed by Celtic incursions. The Danes were much more prominent in England, and left a great deal of music and culture behind. And all would have been different if Alfred and his crew had harried William and the Normans from the get go. Imagine, no Elizabeth, no Cromwell, no plantations, no Church of England, no Northern Ireland... too bad. Forgive all the musings, and I can cite references if you wish. But English folk has a tradition, and Irish folk has a tradition, and Welsh, Cornish and Manx folk have a tradition. Today's common term Celtic Music may be as meaningless as the term Folk Music is in usage, but there is a reality behind it as well.

Subject: RE: Help: Is Folk music in England Celtic?
From: GUEST,jimmyt
Date: 29 Aug 02 - 09:17 AM

I think the original intent of the question (i asked it, I should know) was meant to be, could a person walk into a pub and identify either the style, rhythms, instrumentation, etc as either Scots, Irish, or English.No offence to the Manx, Bretagne, Welsh or Cornish, but just to simplify, Does it (English folk) sound different? I can tell Italian, German, and French music basically from the general rhythms and instrumentation. (at least I think I can, so I don't intend to start nationalistic sniping, just a simple question!)

Subject: RE: Help: Is Folk music in England Celtic?
From: Pied Piper
Date: 29 Aug 02 - 09:09 AM

Can I suggest that we avoid all this controversy by the simple expediancey of calling the music after where we're playing it at the time.This has at least 2 advantages in that it doesn't offend the locals, but does offend the pigeon holers. All the best PP.

Subject: RE: Help: Is Folk music in England Celtic?
From: manitas_at_work
Date: 29 Aug 02 - 08:24 AM

I think I first came on the reference to Black Velvet Band originating in Barking in a book by Dave Occomore. It isn't the song we know now but is recognisably the same. It is also the earliest recorded occurence. There may have been earlier versions.

Barking was a very important seaport although it has been eclipsed in size by it's suburb Ilford. I read somewhere that about 70% of England's fishing catch was landed in Barking during the middle ages.

Limehouse seems to have moved about a bit during my lifetime. When I was young it referred to the area just west of Poplar - ie. the old Chinatown. Now it seems to have moved further west no doubt due to renaming Stepney East station. Just south of this station is Ratcliffe which is hardly remembered as a separate area now - Ratcliffe Highway is now just The Highway.

Subject: RE: Help: Is Folk music in England Celtic?
From: GUEST,Mary Humphreys
Date: 29 Aug 02 - 08:21 AM

In response to Dave Bryant's posting: There are some surprising links to be found: - the song, ' Peth Mawr Ydy'r Cariad' , collected in Anglesey at the turn of the 1900s and in the archives at St Ffagan's has a nearly identical tune ( though not the refrain ) to Harry Cox's 'The Cunning Cobbler'. Admittedly the words bear no relationship to each other, and the mood of each song is totally unlike the other. Now, did a Welsh language song transfer all the way to Norfolk? Or did it travel from Norfolk to Wales? Was Harry Cox a Celtic singer....?

( ...ducks to avoid flying missiles from both sides of the border )

Subject: RE: Help: Is Folk music in England Celtic?
From: Dave Bryant
Date: 29 Aug 02 - 06:48 AM

I think the term "Celtic" tends to be a folk music category used mainly in the US. In UK folk clubs or festivals it is very rarely used. We tend mainly to describe songs or tunes as Traditional, or Contemporary and the main regional designations would tend to be Irish, Scottish, English, Welsh, American etc. Probably because of language problems, mainland Europe tends to be more represented on the tune side.

Songs and Tunes in British Isles have travelled and mixed so much that it is sometimes difficult, contentious, or impossible to determine their original roots. Most people would class "The Black Velvet Band" as an Irish Song, but as PAVANE said earlier, it seems to have come from London originally. A Broadsheet published by Catnach (Seven Dials) refers to places in the Limehouse (not Barking) area - Wapping Wall and Ratcliffe Highway.

What happens in practice is that we have differing versions of the same songs from all over the UK which adds even more interest and diversity to our song heritage.

Subject: RE: Help: Is Folk music in England Celtic?
From: BanjoRay
Date: 29 Aug 02 - 06:06 AM

Well, the sort of folk music we play in our Sheffield session in the Hallamshire Hotel most friday nights comes from celtic Appalachia - tunes like Shove The Pig's Foot a Little Further Into The Fire, Nail That Catfish To A Tree and Grey Cat On A Tennessee Farm.
Squeezebox players and Bodhran artists are welcome to come and just listen. Morris dancers welcome as long as they play clawhammer banjo, flat-picked guitar, cross-tuned fiddle or doghouse bass and leave their bells and ribbons at home, although they're welcome to try some flatfooting. English songs are fine as long as they've been living in the Smokey Mountains for a couple of hundred years.

Cheers
Ray

Subject: RE: Help: Is Folk music in England Celtic?
From: GUEST,JTT
Date: 29 Aug 02 - 05:45 AM

jimmyt, "Celtic" is generally taken to mean "of those who speak the p-Celtic and q-Celtic languages" (or "spoke") - in other words, Irish, Scots, Welsh, Cornish, Manx or Breton; the Basques speak an ancient language not apparently related to these, but are included in the definition by those who use it as a flag of convenience.

Some Irish songs are related to English traditional music; for instance a lot of music from Wexford, where many Englich craftworkers settled, sounds English - like "Come to the Bower".

Irish and Scots music are fashionable at the moment; in the 1950s English folk music was the thing. These trends come and go, and enrich other traditions as they move.

If there's going to be a quarrel about this, count me out. I'd sooner fight about something more important.

Subject: RE: Help: Is Folk music in England Celtic?
From: smallpiper
Date: 29 Aug 02 - 05:39 AM

I also have been told by scollars that the Celts never existed and what we refer to as Celtic stems from a neolithic type of pottery decoration found in France and subsequently accross europe. However, it now has a meaning, even if no one can actually agree what that meaning is, and tends to refer to the peoples and distinct cultural heritage of Ireland, Scotland, Wales, Cornwall, Britany and Manx. Thats okay I can live with that it. It could also be an explaination for the cross cultural influences inmusic and dance of the different regions (if I may for the sake of this thread refer to the areas as regions). But inorder to understand what makes English music and culture distinctly different we have first of all to know what English is and thats something I don't know - does anybody? I know Morris and the rythmic style that links morris and some folk songs is that it or is it more?

Answers on a postcard please

Subject: RE: Help: Is Folk music in England Celtic?
From: fogie
Date: 29 Aug 02 - 05:19 AM

My dear mate Pete is a purist, playing only that sort of music that has no Irish, or Scots feel to it, such as would be heard in morris dances, Playford, Apted, and the comparitively recent tunes such as performed by the New Victory Band, I personally go for much newer compositions such as found on "fusion " bands like Stocai,and Finality Jack's first CD, which shows just how vital the tune-writing is in England today. A great service was done by the Blowsabella band in revitalising the scene by introducing new rhythms to British dance music, and we still live in its wake.

Subject: RE: Help: Is Folk music in England Celtic?
From: Orac
Date: 29 Aug 02 - 04:07 AM

This seems to be returning to a thread that I started a while back complaining that the Irish seem to claim ownership of everything these days... particularly when the are flogging books of "Irish Music". I'm not sure what is meant by "Celtic" music either. If you listen to any "Celtic" music programme on the radio (such as The Celtic Fringe) you will find that most of it is the corniest and certainly the worst of American C&W music..with a smattering of smiling Daniel .. because thats what they listen to these days in Ireland. There is very little "folk" music at all. "Celtic music" is a commodity packaged to be sold to mainly ignorant tourists and doesn't actually exist. Most of the songs about how wonderful Ireland is are written by Americans but I note that they don't go and live there..... And there's forty shades of green.... la la

Subject: RE: Help: Is Folk music in England Celtic?
From: pavane
Date: 29 Aug 02 - 03:23 AM

1. Celtic race

A recent DNA survey showed that the Welsh from more remote areas were distinctly different to the English. The English in general were much more closely related to the Danes than to the Welsh.

1. Songs

Some songs which I understand to be English

Wild Rover (Norfolk)
Black Velvet Band (Barking, London)
Danny Boy (words by an Englishman)
Curragh of Kildare

Subject: RE: Help: Is Folk music in England Celtic?
From: GUEST,Boab
Date: 29 Aug 02 - 03:12 AM

My vote is with Andrew's posting. I would add that there is much sniping at Celtic tradition generated by [dare I say it---] jealousy of the impact that Celtic music has had in recent years. I strongly suspect , in some cases, collusion with so-called "researchers" at government level in an effort to douse the Celtic flame which does tend to be strongly nationalistic---in Scotland, Wales and Ireland. Those so-called "experts" have even gone as far as to state that no such genus as "Celt" ever existed. My own name [I'm a Scot] is Scandinavian/Norman, but my Mother's family are from the Hebrides, carrying a Celtic name, and Celtic traditions. Much of Scottish music is not Celtic. The same can be said of Ireland. That does not alter the fact that to deny the existence of Celtic tradition is patently ridiculous.

Subject: RE: Help: Is Folk music in England Celtic?
From: artbrooks
Date: 28 Aug 02 - 09:40 PM

Gee, that's all very interesting...but what's the REAL definition of "folk music" [ducks and runs for cover REAL fast!].

Subject: RE: Help: Is Folk music in England Celtic?
From: Sorcha
Date: 28 Aug 02 - 09:04 PM

"neither of the Irish or Scots were Celts"--I beg to differ--some of them were. The British Isles are still calle the Celtic Fringe by "Celtic" scholars. No, not all of them were. Danes, Jutes, Angles, Saxons, Normans, etc.

I would agree that there is no "Celtic" music but a lot of people call it that and most of us know what it is supposed to mean.

Other than that, yes, there is still English music out there (whatever you mean by English........Anglish maybe?) Brighton Camp/Girl I Left Behind is definitely not Irish etc.

Subject: RE: Help: Is Folk music in England Celtic?
From: awig
Date: 28 Aug 02 - 08:57 PM

woops... just in case anyone gets the wrong idea;

"But it cannot be denied that the character of the folk music of either England/Scotland/Wales would be radically diferent if any one of them was removed."

should read;

"But it cannot be denied that the character of the folk music of either England/Ireland/Scotland/Wales would be radically different if any one of them was removed."

Subject: RE: Help: Is Folk music in England Celtic?
From: awig
Date: 28 Aug 02 - 08:50 PM

Wooo..... (puts on tin hat for protection from the flak).

I'm going to have to question the very basis of this question.

"Celtic", in the way it used here (for the description of musical genres, historical purity...blah, blah, Cetitic mists and all that) is such a debased word as to be virtually meaningless.

There are plenty of Celtic traces in England, most Scots are not "Celtic" (ducks quickly), Dublin was founded by the Vikings, the Celts as a linguistic group lived in a massive area of Europe including parts of Switzerland, France, Germany, and England, Scotland, Wales, Ireland.

Also, the idea of a pure English tradition is a non-starter. There is a symbiotic relationship between all of the folk traditions of our islands. Just look at all of the places that a tune like "Brighton Camp" or many closely related song variants have been collected from.

There are parts of each tradition that can be described as more typically say English (some Morris tunes for example) or Irish (Sean nos singing maybe), some tunes are unique and styles of playing related tunes differ. But it cannot be denied that the character of the folk music of either England/Scotland/Wales would be radically different if any one of them was removed.

Having said that, there is one part of the tradition that is regularly ignored by the mass media, the general public and many performers and that is the English.

Want an example? Have a look at MP3.com and laugh (or weep) at the number of songs that were collected from England or were written by English people that are routinely categorised as "Celtic" or "Irish". Start by searching for the song usually listed as "The Blacksmith" (ie. "A backsmith courted me", or sometimes a shoemaker).

Others will undoubtedly disagree with me and probably put me right somewhere (we can all learn), but you've probably heard many more English songs and tunes than you've realised under the guise of "Celtic".

Andrew.

Subject: RE: Help: Is Folk music in England Celtic?
From: michaelr
Date: 28 Aug 02 - 08:50 PM

Clinton -- you're not saying they didn't leave any descendants?

Subject: RE: Help: Is Folk music in England Celtic?
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 28 Aug 02 - 08:42 PM

Ya... last time I read an historical document on the subject, it seemed to be of the opinion that the 'celts' have been extinct for hundreds of years...

Subject: RE: Help: Is Folk music in England Celtic?
From: michaelr
Date: 28 Aug 02 - 08:37 PM

Curmudgeon sez: "There is no such creature as Celtic music aside from the grasping minds of record producers. There is Scottish, Irish, Welsh, Manx, Cornish, Bretagne music all of which is Celtic. Then there is English folk song."

dds sez: "There's a lot of Irish and Scottish music around that lots of people call "Celtic" music, but neither the Irish or Scots were Celts."

Discuss!

Subject: RE: Help: Is Folk music in England Celtic?
From: jimmyt
Date: 28 Aug 02 - 08:31 PM

Thanks, Tom, very enlightening!