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911 Anniversary: Tearing Off the Scabs?

JedMarum 09 Sep 02 - 01:37 PM
Clinton Hammond 09 Sep 02 - 01:43 PM
MMario 09 Sep 02 - 01:47 PM
GUEST,mg 09 Sep 02 - 01:49 PM
Clinton Hammond 09 Sep 02 - 01:50 PM
Jeri 09 Sep 02 - 02:09 PM
katlaughing 09 Sep 02 - 02:22 PM
wysiwyg 09 Sep 02 - 02:22 PM
Amos 09 Sep 02 - 02:25 PM
Bobert 09 Sep 02 - 02:40 PM
Deda 09 Sep 02 - 02:50 PM
Clinton Hammond 09 Sep 02 - 03:01 PM
DougR 09 Sep 02 - 03:14 PM
GUEST,petr 09 Sep 02 - 03:41 PM
catspaw49 09 Sep 02 - 03:55 PM
Amos 09 Sep 02 - 03:56 PM
Clinton Hammond 09 Sep 02 - 04:05 PM
wysiwyg 09 Sep 02 - 04:09 PM
GUEST,mg 09 Sep 02 - 04:11 PM
Jeri 09 Sep 02 - 04:57 PM
GUEST,Taliesn 09 Sep 02 - 04:58 PM
Clinton Hammond 09 Sep 02 - 04:59 PM
GUEST,Taliesn 09 Sep 02 - 05:13 PM
McGrath of Harlow 09 Sep 02 - 05:44 PM
Burke 09 Sep 02 - 05:46 PM
Celtic Soul 09 Sep 02 - 05:50 PM
McGrath of Harlow 09 Sep 02 - 05:59 PM
JedMarum 09 Sep 02 - 06:02 PM
Clinton Hammond 09 Sep 02 - 06:10 PM
Bill D 09 Sep 02 - 08:03 PM
Bill D 09 Sep 02 - 08:10 PM
JedMarum 09 Sep 02 - 08:15 PM
wysiwyg 09 Sep 02 - 08:21 PM
Clinton Hammond 09 Sep 02 - 08:29 PM
Mudlark 09 Sep 02 - 09:43 PM
DonMeixner 10 Sep 02 - 12:00 AM
Big Mick 10 Sep 02 - 08:29 AM
Amos 10 Sep 02 - 11:27 AM
Clinton Hammond 10 Sep 02 - 11:34 AM
GUEST,Taliesn 10 Sep 02 - 12:58 PM
Amos 10 Sep 02 - 01:46 PM
katlaughing 10 Sep 02 - 01:49 PM
Clinton Hammond 10 Sep 02 - 02:12 PM
Mudlark 10 Sep 02 - 03:16 PM
McGrath of Harlow 10 Sep 02 - 05:24 PM
Greg F. 10 Sep 02 - 06:09 PM
GUEST,Taliesn 10 Sep 02 - 06:22 PM
Amos 10 Sep 02 - 06:50 PM
maire-aine 10 Sep 02 - 07:04 PM
Deda 10 Sep 02 - 07:07 PM
Deda 10 Sep 02 - 07:09 PM
catspaw49 10 Sep 02 - 07:15 PM
GUEST,Taliesn 10 Sep 02 - 11:33 PM
bob jr 11 Sep 02 - 12:19 AM
katlaughing 11 Sep 02 - 12:48 AM
Peg 11 Sep 02 - 01:24 AM
Venthony 11 Sep 02 - 01:28 AM
Escamillo 11 Sep 02 - 02:52 AM
McGrath of Harlow 11 Sep 02 - 06:07 AM
Peg 11 Sep 02 - 10:45 AM
Amos 11 Sep 02 - 11:13 AM
Bobert 11 Sep 02 - 11:41 AM
GUEST,Taliesn 11 Sep 02 - 01:29 PM
DougR 11 Sep 02 - 08:06 PM
Amos 11 Sep 02 - 08:09 PM
McGrath of Harlow 11 Sep 02 - 08:28 PM
Bobert 11 Sep 02 - 11:11 PM
Venthony 12 Sep 02 - 02:19 PM
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Subject: 911 Anniversary: Tearing Off the Scabs?
From: JedMarum
Date: 09 Sep 02 - 01:37 PM

I find the media's insistence on "heart felt, sensitive" rememberences of last year's attacks to be nothing less then a brutal ripping off the scabs - I will certainly refrain from viewing any of this crap!


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Subject: RE: 911 Anniversary: Tearing Off the Scabs?
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 09 Sep 02 - 01:43 PM

I will also refrain from viewing, but not for the above reason...


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Subject: RE: 911 Anniversary: Tearing Off the Scabs?
From: MMario
Date: 09 Sep 02 - 01:47 PM

I don't think I have seen media coverage of anything in the past 10 years that could be described as "sensitive".


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Subject: RE: 911 Anniversary: Tearing Off the Scabs?
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 09 Sep 02 - 01:49 PM

by all means refrain if that is what you wish to do. Just please everyone don't interrupt what could be healing for someone else to do.

mg


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Subject: RE: 911 Anniversary: Tearing Off the Scabs?
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 09 Sep 02 - 01:50 PM

"sensitive" isn't what media coverage is even FOR!

Since when did you ever thnk it was???


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Subject: RE: 911 Anniversary: Tearing Off the Scabs?
From: Jeri
Date: 09 Sep 02 - 02:09 PM

Jed, I don't know about tearing off scabs...maybe. I have this very strong sense that something's terribly wrong with all this hoopla. I can't say exactly WHAT the root of that wrongness is. The biggest thing is that it seems for some to be nothing more than an opportunity to get on their soap box. It's not a memorial, it's a rally. It's political, patriotic, it's making the folks who died into martyrs so we can feel right KICKING SOME ASS. In short, it's about manipulating emotions, and it's what the media do best.

I think memorials are good. The media seem to be doing something else.


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Subject: RE: 911 Anniversary: Tearing Off the Scabs?
From: katlaughing
Date: 09 Sep 02 - 02:22 PM

It's what sells advertising, too, which in turn keeps the consumerism up, which keep the oil and gas companies, etc. going, which keeps the excuse for war, in some minds, going, which....

I am sure there is some healing in various private and public ceremonies, but the media has made it meaningless in a general sense with over-the-top.

I have found some of the stuff on NPR interesting, but I don't understand the weeks long lead up to the day. Like Jeri, I think it's got a very wrong feel to it.


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Subject: RE: 911 Anniversary: Tearing Off the Scabs?
From: wysiwyg
Date: 09 Sep 02 - 02:22 PM

Maybe we will all get so mad all over again we will go with the next round of Bush plans. See?

~S~


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Subject: RE: 911 Anniversary: Tearing Off the Scabs?
From: Amos
Date: 09 Sep 02 - 02:25 PM

The wrongness, in my opinion, is not simply acknowledging the dead or the heroic. It is in re-running the loop, stirring up new waves of regret and mass anger in support of media sales or politicval agendae which have nothing to do with the actual hearts involved.

I'm sure I can find something more valuable to do with my time than maunder over the past and exercise my God-given right of free kneejerks.

A


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Subject: RE: 911 Anniversary: Tearing Off the Scabs?
From: Bobert
Date: 09 Sep 02 - 02:40 PM

Gotta agree with Jeri and Amos. Remember, Yeah. Become a card carrying, frothin-at-the-mouth "patriot" (ha...) willing to be blindlessly led into Bush's agenda, heck no.

This day should be a day or respect for those who died, and not a spectacle.

To use this day for more than quietly relecting on those victims and their families and friends, belittles their lives.

Bobert


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Subject: RE: 911 Anniversary: Tearing Off the Scabs?
From: Deda
Date: 09 Sep 02 - 02:50 PM

It's also offensive that the networks are using the horror of the day, one year after the fact, to jack up their ratings -- just as they did a year ago with endless, 24/7 reruns of the image of the planes hitting the towers. Turning it into a ratings football, using it to wrench out as many adv. dollars as possible. It's a sorry reflection on the corrosive influence of money in the good old USA.


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Subject: RE: 911 Anniversary: Tearing Off the Scabs?
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 09 Sep 02 - 03:01 PM

"endless, 24/7 reruns of the image of the planes hitting the towers"

2 words...

Challenger disaster...

They did exactly the same thing then... The overall effect it has on me is to desensitise the images, which is a good idea in my book... Get people to the point where they CAN look at the disaster without losing all control...

Otherwise, it's just another way the terrorists win...

It may sound callous of me to say it, but it's the truth...

For most, life goes on...


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Subject: RE: 911 Anniversary: Tearing Off the Scabs?
From: DougR
Date: 09 Sep 02 - 03:14 PM

A bit of over-kill I would say.

DougR


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Subject: RE: 911 Anniversary: Tearing Off the Scabs?
From: GUEST,petr
Date: 09 Sep 02 - 03:41 PM

the other night I saw a preview for some anniversary documentary of 911, with a logo caption of "911" and the 2 1's crumbling one by one like the towers, and wondered who thought that up. (and didnt they think it might come across as crass) petr


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Subject: RE: 911 Anniversary: Tearing Off the Scabs?
From: catspaw49
Date: 09 Sep 02 - 03:55 PM

But Dubya's boys are right on it ain't they? They knew the media blitz would come with the accompanying of renewed patriotic fervor.......and gee, what a fine time to put out your plans for creating a new parking lot in Iraq...........

Spaw


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Subject: RE: 911 Anniversary: Tearing Off the Scabs?
From: Amos
Date: 09 Sep 02 - 03:56 PM

No one ever accused the yellow press of good taste. Unfortunately, yellowness is infectious in the ranks of organizations whose survival depends on selling copies. From one viewpoint, a dime is a dime, whether you get it for thinking journalism or for muckraking.

A


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Subject: RE: 911 Anniversary: Tearing Off the Scabs?
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 09 Sep 02 - 04:05 PM

"thinking journalism"

Heh...

There's an oxymoron....

,-)


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Subject: RE: 911 Anniversary: Tearing Off the Scabs?
From: wysiwyg
Date: 09 Sep 02 - 04:09 PM

I just got an e-mail link to a memorial thingie flash page that actually is a pop-up ad and spambait generator.

~Susan


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Subject: RE: 911 Anniversary: Tearing Off the Scabs?
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 09 Sep 02 - 04:11 PM

I am amazed at that M&M commercial that shows people running in fear and looking up at buildings etc...plus they are Chinese I think...it is so odd they would air something like that..then a giant yellow M&M shows up.

mg


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Subject: RE: 911 Anniversary: Tearing Off the Scabs?
From: Jeri
Date: 09 Sep 02 - 04:57 PM

M&M-zilla?


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Subject: RE: 911 Anniversary: Tearing Off the Scabs?
From: GUEST,Taliesn
Date: 09 Sep 02 - 04:58 PM

(quote) "I am amazed at that M&M commercial that shows people running in fear and looking up at buildings etc...plus they are Chinese I think...it is so odd they would air something like that..then a giant yellow M&M shows up. "

A little culture shock correction is called for here. The commercial is a spoof on one of Japan's media macinery product; the bad "Godzilla ,Rodan, Mothra, whathaveya giant beastie gone beserk movies, Always had bad dubbing ,always had bad compositing ( then called "super-imposing" of real people in front of toy models of cities ). It's all campy parody which means *taste* couldn't be further from the point of it , it's aimed at pre-teens ,teens, and over-grown teens who still eat that garbage , and has zero to do with *9/11*.

Case dismissed. ;-)


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Subject: RE: 911 Anniversary: Tearing Off the Scabs?
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 09 Sep 02 - 04:59 PM

"over-grown teens who still eat that garbage"

HEY!! Dis ye not, the M&M's!!!!!

,-)


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Subject: RE: 911 Anniversary: Tearing Off the Scabs?
From: GUEST,Taliesn
Date: 09 Sep 02 - 05:13 PM

However ,if you really want bad taste parody to be shocked by , I once illustrated an apparently unprintable editorial cartoon showing 2 airline passenger jets; one with the logo "Enron Air" collasping one of the "Corporate Integrity Towers" with someone yelling in horror about a 2nd plane. You guessed it , "WorldCom Airlines".

It grew out of an earlier illustration I was inspired to do of the collapse of the famous Houston twin towers of Enron with the jetliners' logo being "Arthur Anderson Airways" , but that wasn't anymore publishable either.

With political cartoons, the sharper the bite the better I like it. It's one of my weaknesses and i've never known any of my Brit-wit friends to be shy about cutting satire.


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Subject: RE: 911 Anniversary: Tearing Off the Scabs?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 09 Sep 02 - 05:44 PM

Sometimes this kind of thing isn't so much sick as plain evil.

I just had a postal spam from some crooked "psychic astrologer prophet" -"Kevin, stand-by for a fantastic 98-days that may enrich you beyond your fondest dreams" and so forth - ending up, of course, with an invitation to send the mystic lady £19.95 to cover the costs of psychically assisting me.

Anyway, half way through the letter:

"I could tell you about many amazing predictions. Form instance, my visions of the awful Sep 11 tragedies in NYC and Washington DC...or of a strange tarot reading that predicted the wayward flights of three airplanes painted red, white and blue...or my sudden compulsion to phone one of the worlds most idolized women and urge her not to ride in a car if pursued by the paparazzi."


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Subject: RE: 911 Anniversary: Tearing Off the Scabs?
From: Burke
Date: 09 Sep 02 - 05:46 PM

I don't know what Bush & Pataki will say at the official commerative event. If the cheezy stuff for sale at the NY tourist site is an indication, I've very scared.

OTOH, as will many others in New York State, I will be attending a service at my church that evening. It will a memorial type service, not a patriotic one. Here's the anthem the choir may be singing to the tune of Finlandia:

This is my song, O God of all the nations,
A song of peace for lands afar and mine;
This is my home, the country where my heart is,
Here are my hopes, my holy shrine:
But other hearts in other lands are beating
With hopes and dreams as true and high as mine.

This is my prayer, O Lord of all earth's kingdoms,
thy kingdom come, on earth, thy will be done;
let peaced be lifted up 'til all embrace it,
and hearts united, learn to live as one:
O hear my prayer, thou God of all the nations,
myself I give thee -- let thy will be done.
(our anthem seems to be a pastice from several sources, I can't find our 2nd verse online) Here's one online source.


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Subject: RE: 911 Anniversary: Tearing Off the Scabs?
From: Celtic Soul
Date: 09 Sep 02 - 05:50 PM

I have yet to see the footage of the plane hitting the second tower. Or either of the towers going down. Or any of it for that matter.

I don't get TV.

Your options are wide open, m'friend. You can watch, or not watch. Your viewing is entirely in your own hands.


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Subject: RE: 911 Anniversary: Tearing Off the Scabs?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 09 Sep 02 - 05:59 PM

But as for the programmes - well, I imagine you in the States are getting more of them than we are, and we are getting plenty. The ones I've watched have kept on the right note, mostly. There was a very good one about the firefighters which didn't feel like it was exploiting anybody's feelings. And there have been others.

I suspect we in England have been getting a picked selection of the decent ones, and there's been no feeling of the retelling of the tragedy being used as a way of manipulating people for political purposes.


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Subject: RE: 911 Anniversary: Tearing Off the Scabs?
From: JedMarum
Date: 09 Sep 02 - 06:02 PM

The TV media, in particluar are turning the event into a "let's get the widows, widowers or orphans to cry on film, then we'll get glorious heart warming stories of individual heroisms" - its all formula shit because those pricks don't know how to make up anything new, and it's all aimed at generating 'feelings' in the veiwers - and it's all absolutely fucking wrong! I resent it in the highest.

And as for justification for war? What further justification do we need? We certainly have been doing the right thing in seeking out and destroying the al-Qaida terroristes, worldwide. I am not worried about starting a war. It has already started.

As President Bill Clinton said, "If we fail to respond today, Saddam and all those who would follow in his footsteps will be emboldened tomorrow. The stakes, he said, couldn't be higher. Some day, some way, I guarantee you he will use that arsenal."

In response to president Clinton's position on Iraq, Tom Daschle offered a resolution in the senate approving the use of military force against Iraq. The resolution was passed. This was in 1998, and things have obviously only gotten worse since then.


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Subject: RE: 911 Anniversary: Tearing Off the Scabs?
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 09 Sep 02 - 06:10 PM

"let's get the widows, widowers or orphans to cry on film, then we'll get glorious heart warming stories of individual heroisms"

But my point is, that's all they've EVER done... why are you so surprised now?

"I resent it in the highest."

So, take John Prine's advice, and shoot out your TV....

Ya know who'll care? Only you... but that's the best part!

,-)


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Subject: RE: 911 Anniversary: Tearing Off the Scabs?
From: Bill D
Date: 09 Sep 02 - 08:03 PM

I wonder if there is a school somewhere for journalists where they are taught to ask anyone who has had a tragedy, or been under stress....

"..but what were you feeeeeling
..?"

it seems that the media is convinced that dragging expressions of grief or emotion out of people for others to feed on is a cathartic process...POOH!


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Subject: RE: 911 Anniversary: Tearing Off the Scabs?
From: Bill D
Date: 09 Sep 02 - 08:10 PM

....and they are simply incapable of HAVING those tapes of the disaster without showing them, in slow-motion, over & over...usually interspersed with interviews describing "feeeeeling
".....

they have gone out and found NEW tapes and re-edited the old ones to heighten, (they suppose), the drama.... they are showing things now that they refused to show last year!

I do not understand why it is not enough to show memorials, or positive interviews about recovery and healing.....but there are a LOT of things I do not understand....


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Subject: RE: 911 Anniversary: Tearing Off the Scabs?
From: JedMarum
Date: 09 Sep 02 - 08:15 PM

Yer right Clinton. I don't why it upsets me now! You're right too Bill. I remember that Matt Lauher (sp) was interviewing someone one morning who'd lost their child in some terrible accident, and I jokingly said to my wife, mocking the interviewer, "and how did you feel about loosing your child?" - when, I promise you; he actually asked the question, almost word for word!


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Subject: RE: 911 Anniversary: Tearing Off the Scabs?
From: wysiwyg
Date: 09 Sep 02 - 08:21 PM

Bill, thanks for sharing your FEEEEEEEEEEEELings about that...

~S~


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Subject: RE: 911 Anniversary: Tearing Off the Scabs?
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 09 Sep 02 - 08:29 PM

"and how did you feel about loosing your child?"

Response... "I feel great! We're going to Vegas!!!"

LOL!!


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Subject: RE: 911 Anniversary: Tearing Off the Scabs?
From: Mudlark
Date: 09 Sep 02 - 09:43 PM

I agree with Clinton. I've thought for years that news media is strictly bread and circuses...something to feed the gullible to make them feel they 'know' what's going on in their world. 9/11 was an atrocity, to be sure, but there have been so many others, so MANY others, some perpetrated by....fill in the blank: the attack on the Africa Embassy, Nicaragua, Haiti, Chesnia (sp?), etc. etc., none of which elicted a big hooraw on US TV. In view of all that this endless feelie stuff the media is gushing out, like so much treacle, seems almost wantonly self-indulgent.

I'm going to commemorate 9/11 by meeting some new folks to play music with, Mudcat's Bev and Jerry, and looking forward to it. Good sess to us all...


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Subject: RE: 911 Anniversary: Tearing Off the Scabs?
From: DonMeixner
Date: 10 Sep 02 - 12:00 AM

I have become wondered by the use of the word patriot. I amazed at how often it is given over as a derisive term. As if to say being a patriot is a bad thing. The dictionary says a patriot is a person "who loves, supports and defends his country". It no wears mentions foreign policy or support of the party or the military. It is specific in its wording, defense of country. Defense can be with any weapon at hand. A rifle or a word can defend us against an attack. The song writer can have as telling an effect against an enemy as a sniper in a tree. Is one the greater patriot? One of the greatest patriots I can recall in my life time was Phil Ochs. He loved the country and the people there in. He wrote songs in defense of the country and the people and he never waivered in his love of the land. "Power and Glory" is one of the most patriotic songs I have ever heard. It is clearly about love of country. He never let his love of country detere him from fighting what he thought of as stupid foreign policy. For that he had "Cops of the World" and "White Boots Marching in a Yellow Land." I see nothing wrong with being a patriot.

Don


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Subject: RE: 911 Anniversary: Tearing Off the Scabs?
From: Big Mick
Date: 10 Sep 02 - 08:29 AM

Right dead on, Don. Excellent point and excellent post. One of the things I resent most about Newt Gingrich and his crowd is that they hijacked and redefined patriotism. Love of country and community DOES NOT equate with the "Love it or Leave it" mentality. In point of fact, in the American way of thinking, love of country often equates with flying in the face of popular opinion. It is the beauty of the American experiment.

My brother Jed, has started a great thread. But his predicate is only half right IMO. He lays it all at the feet of the media. In a capitalist society, the media is doing exactly what it should. They are playing to their market. And they are opportunistic, as they should be. If, in the event, it became more profitable to be critical, they would do that. Quit being so pissy about that, my Republican friend. It is the natural product of the laissez faire, "keep out of my business" attitude. I don't blame them, even though I don't like it. Whom I blame is very simple. I am disgusted by those who manipulate this event to justify their political ends. I am disgusted by those who are so damn quick to send our young men and women in harms way. Do I think Saddam is a threat and must be removed? Sure. But it never had to come to this. He is a two bit dictator who rules with the carrot and the stick. Remove either of those and he can't rule. We left the job undone. And then we encouraged the Kurds and others to resist, then we abandoned them. Our policies caused untold misery among those who wanted to carry the water to remove him.

Some scabs are worth picking.

Mick


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Subject: RE: 911 Anniversary: Tearing Off the Scabs?
From: Amos
Date: 10 Sep 02 - 11:27 AM

Mick,

Journalism was once thought of as a separate estate which played by a modified set of rules; the deal was, they would serve as the witness and sometimes the conscience of the country, reporting on things high and low with intelligence and integrity. When journalists sank to merely electrifying, slandering, spinning gossip or jerking emotions for the sake of emotion, they were called muck-rakers and yellow journalists. They were considered, in that time, the whores of the journalistic community, in the most derogatory sense of the word.

Now they are promoted to anchormen and women. The difference is that incredibly large amounts of bandwidth make up the vacuum that newsies have to fill each day. Where once a single front page was called for, we now have stations running 7 days a week, 24 hours a day, needing copy (or its video equivalent) to fill it. And it has to be copy that will attract viewers to attract sponsors in turn.

Rather than fill this bandwidth with a far richer array of stories, things that never would fit in a day's paper, they instead take the cheaper route of re-pumping and re-grinding the stories they already have -- it's cheaper!

This is one piece of several which in combination have produced a really awful self-reinforcing negative spiral. Broadcast crap, sell it to sponsors, sponsors see it works, it makes people stupid enough to accept it, broadcast more crap and repeat.

I doubt, for example, that a third of the intelligent analyses relating to the Mideast that have been written on the Cat would ever show up on broadcast television. Too analytical, doncha know.

Even in the first big expansion of television through the 50's and 60's, at least what people stared at at night had a few sparks of redeeming intelligence in it. Edward Murrow comes to mind. And Cronkite at least acted thoughtful.

We have a TV that has served for literally 18 years now, and we use it less than fifteen times a year. That's per YEAR, not per week. Why plug in to wholesale thoughtlessness? I can grow my own just fine! :>)

A


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Subject: RE: 911 Anniversary: Tearing Off the Scabs?
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 10 Sep 02 - 11:34 AM

"Journalism was once thought of as a separate estate which played by a modified set of rules"

Oh ya? when was that?

"Edward Murrow" who?

This sounds like another case of, "Oh whaaaa... things were so much better in MY day..." ???

My answer to that is, "Welcom to MY day..." Or rather it used to be... ever since I passed 30, I've dealt with the idea that it's not even MY day any more...

I am no longer the target audience...


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Subject: RE: 911 Anniversary: Tearing Off the Scabs?
From: GUEST,Taliesn
Date: 10 Sep 02 - 12:58 PM

(quote) "Where once a single front page was called for, we now have stations running 7 days a week, 24 hours a day, needing copy (or its video equivalent) to fill it. And it has to be copy that will attract viewers to attract sponsors in turn.

The one *bright shining exception* is C-Span and Brian Lamb has long replaced Walter Cronkite's former commodity as "the most trusted newscaster in America".

C-Span covers *all* opinions *uninterrupted* and without any network spin pure WYSIWYG coverage with *no* commercial sponsors to pander to. It is gets zero tax dollars directly ,but is financed by all of the commercial cable channels which means all cable subscribers. C-Span covers the range from the "Reparations for Slavery" rally to the every annual "National Rifle Assocaiton's 2nd Amendment Confabs" as well as the ultra-consevative radical "League of the South" making the cae for secession to Noam chomsky lectures and evrything inbetween.

They not only cover both house of congress on floor debates, but many of the key Congressional Investigations and Hearings; fr'instance the various Corproate Accountability hearings involving Enron,Arthur Anderson ,Global Crossing, and Worldcom. I was became a regular C-Span viewer ever since the uniterrupted, un-spun coverage of the "Iran contra Heraings" in 1987 and said goodbye forever to network news for 15 years now and never looked back . No need.

C-Span also covers the various Parliments of the U.K. ,Ireland, Canada,Austrailia as well as the EU in Brussels ,France , Isreal''s Knesset ,and even Russia's and China's gov't gatherings when key issues are in debate or the some grand Pubah is making a speech about some next great leap forward.

Add to this press conferences at any embassy when an issue warrants a public statement by the countries in question.

Add to this all manor of think tank conferences and lectures from Ralph Nadrer's Public Citizen to the CATO Institute and all shades inbetween; Council on Foreign Relations , American Enterprise Institute ,Brookings ,Center for Strategic & International Studies, Urban Institute, Greenpeace , World Economic Forum in Davos.

Add to this one of C-span's channels devoting the entire weekend to broadcasting lectures and interviews with authors discussing their predominantly *non-fiction* books ( history, biography, political scince, etc. )

So to just dismiss T.V. for all the *usual reasons* as the common excuse or writing of T.V. altogether is a kind laziness or even a kind of insular arrogance of *isolationism* not wanting or caring to know more than what I can see out my window, what I read in the Bible or Talmud or Quran or Upanishads or Book of Mormon,Scientology , Necronomicon ,Jedi or whathave you, or whatever I hear from folks I know.

I'm sorry , but this is the 21st century and the now *quaint* fiction of some idyllic self-imposed selectively aboriginal purity in a "what I don't know won't hurt me" atitude just ain't gonna cut it anymore.

So regardless of the followers of the Church of the Forrest Gumpites , Ignorance no longer translates as innocence. To choose to not know when so much alternative sources are avaialble is to try and absolve oneself of participation.

Put plainly ,to those of any spiritual tradition ,try and conront yer maker with " I didn't know " and consider how that will fly.......or not.


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Subject: RE: 911 Anniversary: Tearing Off the Scabs?
From: Amos
Date: 10 Sep 02 - 01:46 PM

Geeze, Tal, who put a bug up yer tail?

I didn't say anything about choosing not to know. If you're talking to me, which seems unlikely.

I said I don't get my information from the damn boobtube.

I am not arguing the virtues of CSpan. I was talking about the overall decay of mass-media-driven journalism.

If you knew anything about me, you'd understand how inappropriate your rant above is, as far as I am concerned.

Thanks for dictating my spiritual traditions, too, while you were shooting off your mouth. Maybe your own was out of the room when they were cranking out the humility part?

When I confront my maker, pal, I'll pat myself on the head for a job well done...mostly...and a kick in the butt for the really serious oversights.

:>)

Oh --and Clinton -- while you're up, mate ... go piss up a rope!! :>)

("GEEZE, wodda bunch of scrappy opinionated SOBs," he observed, looking in the mirror. LOL!!)


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Subject: RE: 911 Anniversary: Tearing Off the Scabs?
From: katlaughing
Date: 10 Sep 02 - 01:49 PM

One can access cspan without having cable tv: clickety


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Subject: RE: 911 Anniversary: Tearing Off the Scabs?
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 10 Sep 02 - 02:12 PM

Truth hurt a little there, Amos?

,-)


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Subject: RE: 911 Anniversary: Tearing Off the Scabs?
From: Mudlark
Date: 10 Sep 02 - 03:16 PM

I cant see any thoughtful, let alone mildly cynical person having much good to say about 98% of TV news. My feeling is, since I can't trust what is fed me thru these sources, I wont watch at all. However, I agree that C-Span does a great job of covering a vast amount of political goings-on, and I'm often glued to the Book Channel all weekend.

Even so, I can't ever remember seing someone like Noam Chomsky, for instance, on C-Span. Granted, I am NOT glued to the politial stuff, but I check in about as often as I listen to NPR. And I've been lucky enough to catch Chomsky on that a number of times. (And even NPR is no longer very public.)

I don't know about the good old days. To my shame I've never been very interested in politics and it's only been in recent years that I've tried to educate myself by exploring, outside US media, what is going on in the world. But I have to agree with Amos...at least Morrow and Cronkite *looked* creditable. The talking heads of today look like superficial puppets...and they sound even worse. (Tim Robbins did a wonderful send-up of them in his movie Bob Roberts.) Even Dan Rather has admitted that he cannot air stories like the deliberate official ignoring of pre-9/11 input, warning of probability of attack, without putting his neck in a noose.

In the face of the vast array of infotainment type news coverage from ABC, NBC, CBS, CNN, etc., packaged w/pazzazz and instant accessability, I think it's fair to say that TV fails us badly, despite the (often tedious) senate hearings, etc. that are broadcast on C-Span. Newspapers and magazines may not be a lot better, but I think they have less emotional impact than the "slice of life" reality of TV, even if one suspects it may be counterfit.


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Subject: RE: 911 Anniversary: Tearing Off the Scabs?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 10 Sep 02 - 05:24 PM

Now what they put on one of the main channels in England tonight (ITV), the eve of September 11th, was a bit strange.

The original Star Wars. And as I was watching it, the thought occurred to me that that must have been how the Al Qaida suicide hi-jackers must have seen what they were doing. A suicide mission by a dedicated elite of rebels fighting an underground war against a corrupt and overwhelmingly powerful Empire. Destroying the Death Star with a surprise attack from which noone expects to come out alive, which can only hope to succeed because the attacking force is so tiny compared with what they are up against.

I wonder if they watched it to hype themselves up for it?

And don't anybody think I'm saying anything at all along the lines of "Weren't they heroic ?", because I'm not. But I think it's important to be able to see how it could have been possible for them to persuade themselves that they were. And that is a terrible warning to us not to fall into the same trap.


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Subject: RE: 911 Anniversary: Tearing Off the Scabs?
From: Greg F.
Date: 10 Sep 02 - 06:09 PM

Spaw,

Its just the 21st century version of "Waving The Bloody Shirt", which kept the Republican Party in power for half a century after the (U.S.) Civil War.

Nothing new under the sun.

Best, Greg


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Subject: RE: 911 Anniversary: Tearing Off the Scabs?
From: GUEST,Taliesn
Date: 10 Sep 02 - 06:22 PM

Alright Amos, I know I went off on a tear ,but not specifically aimed at you . but at broad-brush generalizations of media journalism summed up by statements like the one that you just happened to express ;

(quote) " I was talking about the overall decay of mass-media-driven journalism."

Well , Duh ,...Yeah, so what else is new? Commercial driven mass media destroys everything it touches. Look at Sports ,movies , you name it. It's easy to rant at the obvious, but to then "suggest" that therefore TV as a legitimate source of knowledge is a complete write-off is just plain wrong and I just had to speak up for C-Span because it is the absolute antithesis of what you and countless others rave at.

I guess my position is "Stop beating a dead horse bitching at the obvious" because the alternatives are thriving and C-Span is the best mass-media source there is *bar none* . That is why i started out by calling it the *bright shining exception* that puts the lie to dismissing TV as if all its *news* ever is would be this mass media driven journalism.

Just presenting a solution into the mix instead of letting it go unmentioned. You may still not be interested , but others reading this thread might give it a try and see for themselves in psite of the now tired old argument about *all* mass media news makes TV not worth the effort. Sorry ,but that just ain't true anymore and I guess I'm more about spreading a little more light rather than just cursing the obvious darkness.

(quote) "Thanks for dictating my spiritual traditions, too, while you were shooting off your mouth. Maybe your own was out of the room when they were cranking out the humility part? "

OK, I ruffled some feathers climbing on my soapbox and my apologies, but humility has nuttin' to do with it. I rather rashly was trying to make the case that shutting oneself off from what's genuinely good because they've resigned themselves that the source is all bad is a wrong signal to send out and then perpetuate.

There's a lot going on in the world and if you're one of those who can't stand this or that media commnetator's *spin* then what's wrong with advocating one go to the source, hear *all* of what they actually said *in context*, really hear the counter points, and then one can make up their own mind .

I dunno. After the 2nd Oil Shock of 1989 I woke up to the fact that what I don't know *can* hurt me and now that we are well into Cold War II there's just too much available on alternative news that just does not get into print.

Anyway , sorry for the ruffled feathers. It's Savanarola-style hyperbole meant to make the point stick I s'pose.


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Subject: RE: 911 Anniversary: Tearing Off the Scabs?
From: Amos
Date: 10 Sep 02 - 06:50 PM

Savanarola? You mean Girolamo Savonarola? The mad moralist Florentine? The guy who said, "I am like the hail. Cover thyself lest it come down upon thee, and strike thee. And remember that I said unto thee, cover thy head with a helmet, that is, clothe thyself with virtue and no hail stone will touch thee."? The inventor of the "bonfire of the vanities"? That frog-sucking double-crossing ugly dude who invented the Morals Police? That Savonarola??

Sheeshe, T., cancha find yerself a kinder, gentler role model?? LOL!!! The world has enough fanatics!

NOI, NOT, buddy.

A


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Subject: RE: 911 Anniversary: Tearing Off the Scabs?
From: maire-aine
Date: 10 Sep 02 - 07:04 PM

I just ain't necessary. We all know what happened. One dignified service at each site, done with pool coverage, would be quite enough. I don't need to live with it all week. I don't need to hear the personal story of every family who lost a loved one. The stories I already know about first-hand are more that enough. TV people, leave me be.


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Subject: RE: 911 Anniversary: Tearing Off the Scabs?
From: Deda
Date: 10 Sep 02 - 07:07 PM

Here's a poem for the 9/11 victims, in Latin -- but it's all translated so don't freak out. I lifted it from my other chat group, which can be accessed at Latinteach.com. Having translated it, I thought it was too well done to keep to myself.
EPITAPHIUM INNUMERORUM INNOCENTIUM IN TURRIBUS GEMELLIS NOVI ABORACI ATROCITER INTERFECTORUM DIE 11TH SEPT AN. 2001.
(Eulogy for the many innocents killed in the Twin Towers of New York on Sept. 11, 2001)
Pepigit Alanus Van Dievoet
(Composed by Alan Van Dievoet; translated by Rebecca Jessup)
Ite viatores, et mundo dicite vasto
Nos hic innocuos mole iacere sub hac,
Nos cives placidos, patres matresque quietos.
Cordibus in nostris, nullum odium fuerat.
Nosque laborantes, rapuit mors invidiosa.
Nunc sumus heroes, nunc sumus astra poli.

Go, Travellers, and tell the wide world
That we innocents lie here beneath this great structure,
We were gentle citizens, quiet fathers and mothers.
There was no hatred in our hearts.
Jealous death snatched us while we worked.
Now we are heroes, now we are stars in the sky.


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Subject: RE: 911 Anniversary: Tearing Off the Scabs?
From: Deda
Date: 10 Sep 02 - 07:09 PM

PS I really don't mean to add to the excessive BS out there about this event. In general I agree with Marie-aine. I just really liked this particular piece.


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Subject: RE: 911 Anniversary: Tearing Off the Scabs?
From: catspaw49
Date: 10 Sep 02 - 07:15 PM

Hey Greg....Yeah, you're right....But don't you wish there were something new?

Spaw


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Subject: RE: 911 Anniversary: Tearing Off the Scabs?
From: GUEST,Taliesn
Date: 10 Sep 02 - 11:33 PM

(quote) "Sheeshe, T., cancha find yerself a kinder, gentler role model?? LOL!!! The world has enough fanatics! "

Noooooo, definitely *not* a Savonorole-model for cryin' out loud. Just throwing out an burlesque modifier to exaggerate the *effect* my hyperbole apparently had.

Perhaps I should go the more playful Marshal McLuhan route . He's more of a genuine role-model from my *understanding media* days at university.


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Subject: RE: 911 Anniversary: Tearing Off the Scabs?
From: bob jr
Date: 11 Sep 02 - 12:19 AM

It never ceases to amaze me. The "terrorists" were from Saudi arabia...there benafactors were mostly saudis..and America wants to invade Iraq? If it makes sense to Americans then the media has worked its magic and brainwashed you pretty well.


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Subject: RE: 911 Anniversary: Tearing Off the Scabs?
From: katlaughing
Date: 11 Sep 02 - 12:48 AM

In talking with someone who lost a loved one to violence (not that of Sept. 11), I find that perhaps we need to think about the families etc. who are left behind. Maybe they do need all of the stories, coverage, etc. to be shown on what must be a very important and sad anniversary for them. Grief can last a long time, even when people are moving on, trying to pick up the pieces.

Some may find validation in listening to the survivors talking about their feelings. So, even if I don't care for it, and even if I do feel cynical about it and the Self-serving shrub, perhaps there are people who need it and all I have to do is turn it off.


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Subject: RE: 911 Anniversary: Tearing Off the Scabs?
From: Peg
Date: 11 Sep 02 - 01:24 AM

I teach a media theory class, today was our first day. I barely mentioned it. Maybe I will have reason to mention it on Thursday. I watched Sunday Morning on CBS and they did a very good show on the events of last September, and I was moved and saddened all over again. I just can't sit through it again. I also think being bombarded with all this makes me LESS likely to remember in the way that counts. Not sure, tho. I know I was glued to Peter Jennings' glass face for a week until the commercials started again. And that was enough.


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Subject: RE: 911 Anniversary: Tearing Off the Scabs?
From: Venthony
Date: 11 Sep 02 - 01:28 AM

Two things:

First I voted for Ronald Regan twice and George Bush (the first) twice. Given those politics, I certainly support the current President Bush and believe that we're in a real war with a real ememy.

Simply put, Saddam, bin Laden and their cronies must be hunted down and killed like the animals they are, regardless of the price in diplomatic PR and even in innocent lives. War is a very ugly business, and there's no getting around it.

That's why the U.S. would like some help cleaning up a bloody mess not of our making. But if it's not forthcoming we'll do it ourselves.

The current Mr. Bush is a man of integrity and faith, principles which, unpleasant as the reality may be, radical Islam scorns. Theirs is a church that worships only at the altar of cowardice and hate. And they are a threat not only to peace but to the God-given rights of man. (I, like Orwell, eschew genderspeak.)

The Western, democratic ideal, which we -- the overwhelming majority of Americans -- belive in, and in which Muslim fundamentalists do not, must absolutely be the foundation upon which any future worth surviving to see is built. There is no other paradigm short of "a new heaven and a new earth."

Now then, as for all this silly stuff on TV:

I'm no stranger to mass media; for nearly 20 years I worked as a fairly succesful newspaperman before giving up the profession in disgust.

And here's the deal. Newspapers -- most of them anyway -- have become mere house organs for big media corporations whose sole aim is to exploit people.

Working for them as a writer, or in any other capacity, is just about a half-step above prostitution.

Given the low ethical standard of newspapering in general, I can only tell you that editors and reporters in the print world commonly refer to TV folks as "screen scum."

In my experience, this is an apt and accurate term.

Furthermore, almost all of the network/cable reporters and editors framing these exploitative sob stories you folks justifiably villify are liberals.

You can't have your cake and eat it too.

Tony


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Subject: RE: 911 Anniversary: Tearing Off the Scabs?
From: Escamillo
Date: 11 Sep 02 - 02:52 AM

Tonight in Buenos Aires an interesting phenomenon happened once again: literally millions of people went to the streets and peacefully, seriously, banged all kinds of metal devices, blowed horns and claxons for 10 minutes to protest AGAINST VIOLENCE in any form, with no political color and no nations'flags. No one was watching the TV at that time. The TV was probably following the groups, behind some expected act of violence which did not happen.

This was mainly because of the terrible situation of general safety (kidnaps, robbery, murder, police brutality), but extended to all forms of violence in the world.

That's what I would propose: a journey of worldwide TURNOFF for all the media, and solidarity with the victims. Religious or non religious meetings in the memory of those who died and in solidarity with those who miss them. And a wide-world NO to the presence of politicians in any meeting. Sorry, I know that they are human beings too, but they try very hard to demonstrate the contrary. Let's get them out of our mourning, perhaps thus they learn something.

Un abrazo, Andrés


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Subject: RE: 911 Anniversary: Tearing Off the Scabs?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 11 Sep 02 - 06:07 AM

Well, that's one way of putting it Tony. Or as someone else might have said: "The infidel capitalists and their cronies must be hunted down and killed like the animals they are, regardless of the price in diplomatic PR and even in innocent lives. War is a very ugly business, and there's no getting around it."

What relevance does domestic politics such as which person you voted for have to do with it? The division between your parties isn't the same as the division over this proposed war - it is clear there are Republicans who are against it, and Democrats who are for it.


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Subject: RE: 911 Anniversary: Tearing Off the Scabs?
From: Peg
Date: 11 Sep 02 - 10:45 AM

I think it is inappropriate for people who have no grasp of the history of journalism to offer a negative OR positive opinion of it. In fact, the cultural illiteracy this country is experiencing in epidemic proportions, although largely due to a turning away from the written word in favor of visually-oriented media, is also upheld by the shameless (or is it shameful) habit many people have of shooting their mouths off about things they know NOTHING about...

And a lot of them do it on the Internet.


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Subject: RE: 911 Anniversary: Tearing Off the Scabs?
From: Amos
Date: 11 Sep 02 - 11:13 AM

Well, it's handy, Peg...and even in our great country, no-one has ever made the case that ignorance wasn't a perfectly acceptable point of view! :>)

Maybe you could be more specific about those who are ignorant of the history of journalism??

A


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Subject: RE: 911 Anniversary: Tearing Off the Scabs?
From: Bobert
Date: 11 Sep 02 - 11:41 AM

Well, I ain't into rantin' today so I'll keep it short...

Tony: I thought we had a deal. You were gonna read Greg Palast's "The Best Democracy Money Can Buy" and I was gonna read one of your guys. Your guy is a crook and the evidence is there. Problem is that he's keeping the dog under the porch with his supposed War on Terriorism which is quickly becoming a war on anyone he and his diaddy happen not to like. History is not on his side, for in the Book of Mathew it is written that, "there are no secrets kept that won't day be common knowledge". His day will come.

Taliesn: Now please don't jump on the Reverand but, hey, if you'll mix in a little Pacifica Radio (Democracy Now), WPFW. 89.3 FM, you're gonna find that C-Span, while much more objective than the Big Three entertainment news folks, still has a way to go. Now, I will admit to not watching it, but I do listen to it on the radio and over the last month I have listened to one Republican after another. Maybe its just the time of day which is generally around 5 or 6;00 pm but if its not Donald Rumsfield, then it's Trent Lott or Ari Flesher... Just my observation....

Bobert


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Subject: RE: 911 Anniversary: Tearing Off the Scabs?
From: GUEST,Taliesn
Date: 11 Sep 02 - 01:29 PM

(quote) "Taliesn: Now please don't jump on the Reverand but, hey, if you'll mix in a little Pacifica Radio (Democracy Now), WPFW. 89.3 FM, you're gonna find that C-Span, while much more objective than the Big Three entertainment news folks, still has a way to go."

Aww shucks, I'm not gonna jump all over ya. I just don't get any decent radio reception in this below round den of a digital studio of mine; my "digital bunker" as I calls it. Even NPR is just plain static snowstorm , but I know of the Pacifica system of which you speak.

I well remember our Pacifica station in New York ; WBAI. I still miss my daily noon doses of the West Virginny native-born son become PhD.nutritionist , preventative medince & health advocate ,takes no lip from Big Pharmaceuticals and AMA lobbyists "give 'em hell" Gary Null. Only WBAI gave him the commercial-free forum necessary to build a more nutrition-minded conciousness raising.

As far as C-Span goes it doesn't have any regular programming per se except the morning call-ins and everything is driven by what's going on that week. Best to check in on their on-line schedule and cherry-pick what interests y'all. For example: Noam Chomsky's hundred minute "9/11" lecture from last year was rebroadcast over the weekend "in its entirety". That's Pacifica's style, right?


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Subject: RE: 911 Anniversary: Tearing Off the Scabs?
From: DougR
Date: 11 Sep 02 - 08:06 PM

Bryan Lamb has replace Walter Cronkite? Sez who? I like Bryan Lamb, but to me, he is no Walter Cronkite. Edward R. Murrow either. I don't know anyone who has replaced either one of them myself. We just have a lot more folks doing what they did.

Burke: glad you clarified that the service at your church would be a memorial not patriotic. Woudn't want to show patriotism in church would we? :>)

Spaw: I have it on pretty good authority (my hometown is only fifteen miles or so from Crawford, Texas) that we are not going to put a parking lot where Bagdad was. A Wal-Mart store is going in there, along with a hughe tower that will serve as a headquarters for Exxon-Mobil. *G*

DougR


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Subject: RE: 911 Anniversary: Tearing Off the Scabs?
From: Amos
Date: 11 Sep 02 - 08:09 PM

Hey, there's no law against being patriotic in church!! The "separation of church and state" is only mandatory on the State! One assumes that arbitrary commandments laid down by the Church dfon't impinge on the State as much as the other way around....

A


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Subject: RE: 911 Anniversary: Tearing Off the Scabs?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 11 Sep 02 - 08:28 PM

Patriotism means loving your country. And it should mean feeling a sense of solidarity with everyone else who loves their country, whichever country that is.

Any time hatred of other countries comes into the licture, it's not patriotism any more, because that kind of thing degrades a country, and no true patriot would want their country degraded.


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Subject: RE: 911 Anniversary: Tearing Off the Scabs?
From: Bobert
Date: 11 Sep 02 - 11:11 PM

Srop the presses! Get Ripley on the phone! DouGR and Bobert agree on something...

Yep, I'm with you on Walter Cronkite, Doug.

Bobert

p.s. And they said it would never happen...


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Subject: RE: 911 Anniversary: Tearing Off the Scabs?
From: Venthony
Date: 12 Sep 02 - 02:19 PM

Dear Bobert,

The only deal we have is to exchange books and ideas. There are five or six titles I'm still considering, and I'll pick one in a day or two.

Mr. Palast's book is available through the library here, and I've requested it.

By the way -- touche. I thought John Ashcroft gave a perfectly miserable interview the other day on the Today Show.

I've always liked him, and I can't believe he's as stupid and insensitive as his defensive and bureaucratic syntax would indicate.

As a conservative and Republican, I've never thought I need apologize to anyone for my principles. That, after all, is what the whole debate is about.

So you may be right. While I still think Mr. Ashcroft is a man of truth and integrity, his vision -- and, sadly, eduation -- may be too narrow for his current responsibilities.

Tony


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