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Origins: Sean South of Garryowen

Robin 04 Dec 02 - 07:33 PM
PeteBoom 05 Dec 02 - 08:25 AM
InOBU 05 Dec 02 - 08:33 AM
GUEST,Philippa 05 Dec 02 - 11:13 AM
Robin 05 Dec 02 - 11:21 AM
Big Tim 05 Dec 02 - 11:56 AM
GUEST 05 Dec 02 - 11:58 AM
An Pluiméir Ceolmhar 05 Dec 02 - 12:07 PM
Big Tim 05 Dec 02 - 12:19 PM
An Pluiméir Ceolmhar 05 Dec 02 - 12:20 PM
Big Tim 05 Dec 02 - 12:34 PM
Robin 05 Dec 02 - 12:50 PM
boglion 05 Dec 02 - 01:37 PM
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boglion 05 Dec 02 - 01:56 PM
Big Tim 05 Dec 02 - 04:30 PM
Brakn 05 Dec 02 - 04:36 PM
Big Tim 05 Dec 02 - 04:42 PM
GUEST,Ard Mhacha 06 Dec 02 - 05:57 AM
GUEST,Ard Mhacha 06 Dec 02 - 06:20 AM
Big Tim 06 Dec 02 - 06:57 AM
GUEST,Ard Mhacha 06 Dec 02 - 09:44 AM
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Subject: Origins: Sean South of Garryowen
From: Robin
Date: 04 Dec 02 - 07:33 PM

This just occured to me, but there's a citation of SEAN SOUTH in DT, and a few threads on it in the Discussion, but I don't think anyone ever mentions +this+.

Apparently Sean South was homosexual.

I had this drummed into me when I was working on a building-site with a particularly hard Glasgow Irish Catholic gang in the sixties, most of whose grand-daddies prolly got wasted alongside Sean South.

I dunno even how true this was ...

Robin.

Context:

THE DEAR GREEN PLACE

That building site ...

It was 1966, the summer between my first and second years as a student at Glasgow University, and I was working on the building site to make a bit of money. People there divided sharply between the over-forties, and kids my own age, and never the twain did meet. The kids were Catholic Glasgow Irish, which was pretty obvious from the start. What I only gradually came to realise was that they weren't just illiterate Glasgow Catholic bog-Irish (they'd all left school at sixteen), but that they were the core of a very hard Catholic gang (these were the years of Tongs and Cumbie -- they weren't Cumbie, but a smaller and tougher version thereof.) And there was me, privileged middle class Protestant university student who'd been to a grammar school (Hutchesons) and was working there for a bit to earn some pocket money while they were there for life.

What would you expect?

Closest I can come to describing their attitude towards me was protective -- "Hey, Robin, fuck off that wan, it's tae heavy fur ye, we're trained tae it."

[SNIP]

Only time I had anything remotely resembling trouble wasn't really my fault. I was (as one does, sometimes) humming "Sean South of Garryone" and they landed on me like a ton of bricks -- "Jeez, Robin, fur Christ sake stop that. Don't ye know he was a flaming poofter?"

(Well, +I+ thought he was a martyred hero of the Uprising. Most of their granddaddies had probably been wasted alongside him by the Black and Tans. Long memories in Glasgow.)

They forgave me for it -- as an Ignorant Protestant, how would I be expected to know something like that?

[SNIP]

One of the only two times in my life I ever felt completely at home.

{Actually, that particular [SNIP] cuts into what little sense this post is trying to make.}

[SNIP]

So that's the story of The Dear Green Place.

R2.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Sean South of Garryowen
From: PeteBoom
Date: 05 Dec 02 - 08:25 AM

Well, hmmm, for one thing, Sean South was killed in the '50's, not during the Anglo-Irish (Black & Tan) war. Depending on the age of your "Glasgow Irish Catholic" (not Ranger supporters, I'd wager) they could have been contemporaries...

Silly song, never particularly liked it. Part of the "another martyr for Ireland" genre. Ah well, just my not so humble opinion.

Cheers -

Pete


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Subject: RE: Origins: Sean South of Garryowen
From: InOBU
Date: 05 Dec 02 - 08:33 AM

Pete, you beat me to it... I knew an Englishman living in Ireland who was in the Ballybrooke barracks during the raid that killed South... in point of fact, many heros of many wars, as well as many heros who resisted war, and many cowards and many who stood on the side lines, and many who did what they could or little at all, had blond hair, brown hair, were tall - short, gay or straight, so what?
Cheers
Larry


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Subject: RE: Origins: Sean South of Garryowen
From: GUEST,Philippa
Date: 05 Dec 02 - 11:13 AM

There's a book in Irish about "Seán Sabhat".I haven't read it so I can't say whether it says anything about South's sexuality. I believe Dominic Behan's song The Patriot Game features South's paramilitary partner O'Hanlon.
previous Seán South thread
Dungannon


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Subject: RE: Origins: Sean South of Garryowen
From: Robin
Date: 05 Dec 02 - 11:21 AM

Pete,

They were much of an age with me, which would have them born in the late forties. So maybe their fathers ...

They surely didn't support Rangers. But then neither did I -- I had a lingering sentimental affection for Queens Park, but the team had already drifted into history by then so Glasgow football was totally polarised between Rangers and Celtic.

Thanks for pulling me up on the Black and Tans -- teach me to be sloppy. Now I have to work out how to change that in the full version of THE DEAR GREEN PLACE.

Larry --

I'd agree on the irrelevance of blond or brunette, gay or straight. Just something that's puzzled me for years as to the truth or otherwise of the matter. It seemed to matter to the kids though, judging by the way they jumped on me over it.

Somehow, it suddenly struck me last night, in my cups, that someone on Mudcat might know.

As it is, I've already learned something.

Thanks both.

Robin


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Subject: RE: Origins: Sean South of Garryowen
From: Big Tim
Date: 05 Dec 02 - 11:56 AM

Sean South was planning to announce his engagement to a Limerick girl, a teacher, but was killed on 1 January 1957 before he could do so.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Sean South of Garryowen
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Dec 02 - 11:58 AM

lots of gay people get married, so we are still none the wiser
if it really matters


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Subject: RE: Origins: Sean South of Garryowen
From: An Pluiméir Ceolmhar
Date: 05 Dec 02 - 12:07 PM

The book is "Maraíodh Seán Sabhat aréir". I think it was written by Cathal O Sandair. I read it about 1965-66, and I might read it differently now with hindsight, but there was no such claim in the book.

He is preented as a person of great integrity who was very committed to restoration of the Irish language as well as to the 32-county republic. He served in the FCA (~=National Guard/TAVR) and rose to the rank of 2nd Lieut. He apparently saw this as a way of learning military skills which he would put into practice in the IRA, and he resigned and joined the IRA, as not to have resigned would in his view have been to break his oath of allegiance sworn when commissioned.

The way he is portrayed in the book is in some senses as a successor to Pádraic Pearse, whom it became fashionable in subsequent decades to denigrate as a "mad queer" (in fact the resemblance even included a shared romantic military incompetence). There may well have been repressed homsexuality in either or both case, but the people making the claim about Seán South were probably just jumping on the revisionist bandwagon.

The Irish teacher who lent the book to various members of my class was careful to emphasise that he was not encouraging us to join the IRA, which surprised me at the time, when we were pretty much all "sneaking regarders". I believe that South was the sort of honest but naive "true believer" who wanted to wage a strictly military war on the British "occupying forces" and that he would have been appalled by the way things turned out in the 1970s and subsequently.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Sean South of Garryowen
From: Big Tim
Date: 05 Dec 02 - 12:19 PM

Gay, straight - who cares? However I do think the Sean South thing was a wind-up.

The book that Phillipa referred to is "Maraiodh Sean Sabhat Areir" ("Sean South Was Killed Last Night") by Seoighe Mainchin (Mannix Joyce). It was published in '64, now out of print, but don't worry folks BT has preserved a copy, even if he can't read it! Phillipa,would you be willing to translate it!?

The song was written by Sean Costello of Limerick and first published in the "Irish Catholic" on 10 January 1957, just nine days after SS died. Although I am very anti political violence I think it's a great song. Sean Costello died in 1991.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Sean South of Garryowen
From: An Pluiméir Ceolmhar
Date: 05 Dec 02 - 12:20 PM

Correction, I see from Robin's first post that he's reminiscing about 1966, which was before the major wave of revisionism. But I first heard the "mad queer" remark from a colleague whose father served in the British Army's Irish Guards Regiment, and that view of Pearse may have been current among Irish working-class Catholics in Glasgow who had family connections in the British Army.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Sean South of Garryowen
From: Big Tim
Date: 05 Dec 02 - 12:34 PM

Pearse never showed any interest in sex at all, as far as we know. A neighbour of mine is like that, now age 70. Does that make him, and Pearse, a repressed homosexual? And, can you be a homosexual if you have never had sex? Is asexuality possible? Come in Freud, or failing that, Ruth Dudley Edwards!


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Subject: RE: Origins: Sean South of Garryowen
From: Robin
Date: 05 Dec 02 - 12:50 PM

Big Tim writes:

"The song was written by Sean Costello of Limerick and first published in the "Irish Catholic" on 10 January 1957, just nine days after SS died."

In DT, there's no notice of Sean Costello's authorship of the lyric.

Could this be added? Prolly more important than Sean South's sexuality.

Robin


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Subject: RE: Origins: Sean South of Garryowen
From: boglion
Date: 05 Dec 02 - 01:37 PM

It's a good rousing tune especially when sung by Limerick folk. They did, of course, borrow the tune from the much earlier Roddy McClory.

Who cares about his sexuality - we're all asexual in the grave.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Sean South of Garryowen
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Dec 02 - 01:41 PM

Robin there is a Mudcat permathread for DT author attribution which anyone can add to... the organisers may refer to it next time they update the DT


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Subject: RE: Origins: Sean South of Garryowen
From: boglion
Date: 05 Dec 02 - 01:56 PM

Two things I've always wondered about with Sean South were

1) How did he get such a diverse band of men together? The song suggests there were men from every second county in Ireland! In my experience the Irish tend to be more parochial than this. A Kerryman for example would not trust a Corkman further than he could tip him with a hurley.

2) Was there really someone from Tyrone or was he invented to neatly rhyme with Garryowen?


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Subject: RE: Origins: Sean South of Garryowen
From: Big Tim
Date: 05 Dec 02 - 04:30 PM

Not sure about Tyrone. I've got the names and geog. origins of all 12 of the "lorry load of volunteers" and will check. I do though know that the "Patrick Pearse Flying Column" was, definitely, comprised of men from all 4 Provinces: so much for local rivalry.

Anybody know where Feargal O'Hanlon was from, within Co. Monaghan?


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Subject: RE: Origins: Sean South of Garryowen
From: Brakn
Date: 05 Dec 02 - 04:36 PM

Ballybay?


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Subject: RE: Origins: Sean South of Garryowen
From: Big Tim
Date: 05 Dec 02 - 04:42 PM

Good question!


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Subject: RE: Origins: Sean South of Garryowen
From: GUEST,Ard Mhacha
Date: 06 Dec 02 - 05:57 AM

Fergal O`Hanlon buried in Lathlurcan Cemetery, Co Monaghan, 1-1-1957. Ard Mhacha.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Sean South of Garryowen
From: GUEST,Ard Mhacha
Date: 06 Dec 02 - 06:20 AM

Milwall, I can assure you that the song is correct in the location of the men`s counties.
Cork v Kerry or any other county rivalries never applied. Ard Mhacha.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Sean South of Garryowen
From: Big Tim
Date: 06 Dec 02 - 06:57 AM

According to "Saoirse", the organ of Republican Sinn Fein, none of the men were from Tyrone. Armagh, Cork, Dublin,Fermanagh, Galway, Limerick,Monaghan and Wexford are listed.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Sean South of Garryowen
From: GUEST,Ard Mhacha
Date: 06 Dec 02 - 09:44 AM

Milwall, As you can see from Big Tims statistics, county rivalries didn`t apply. Ard Mhacha.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Sean South of Garryowen
From: Jimmy C
Date: 06 Dec 02 - 10:10 AM

Robin,

What makes you think your workmates were illerate?. just because they left school at 16 ?.

The education in Ireland and in most parts of England, Scotland and Wales at that time was very high. I left school 6 months before my 16th birthday and I guarantee I am better educated than a lot of high school and even university students.

Sean South may have been deemed to be gay, I doubt it, but so what.
He was bespeckled and had the studious nerdy look about him but that does not make him gay or even a sissy. For right or for wrong he did his part and unfortunately lost his life because iof it, like so many others, both gay and straight.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Sean South of Garryowen
From: Big Tim
Date: 06 Dec 02 - 10:14 AM

The song does contain one major innacuracy when it says "the leader was a Limerick man, Sean South of Garryowen". According to IRA histories the group was led by Sean Garland of Dublin, second in command was David O'Connell of Cork.                              

Garland was badly wounded and wanted to stay in the barn with South and O'Hanlon and shoot it out with the RUC to allow his men more time to get over the Border. However he was talked out of this and helped away. Earlier IRA histories say that about half the men were wounded but in the new book on Joe Cahill it says "another member of the Brokeborough raiding party revealed that all the volunteers on the operation had been wounded".


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Subject: RE: Origins: Sean South of Garryowen
From: Robin
Date: 06 Dec 02 - 11:35 AM

Jimmy C writes:

"
Robin,

What makes you think your workmates were illerate?. just because they left school at 16 ?.
"

That was a bit of a deliberate exaggeration -- the persona of (most of)the piece is meant to be a slightly smug and naive young middle-class Protestant. Which, alas, I was age eighteen.

It concludes (in a bit I didn't originally include as I was simply selecting the bits relevant to Sean South):

++
Then I left ...

One of the only two times in my life I ever felt completely at home.

The other thing that stuck with me was that two of the kids were brighter than me. Wasn't anything I could do about it at the time, but that was always in the back of my mind later when I looked over the apparently no-hopers whom I was interviewing for a university place. So I tended to make more than my quota of offers to underqualified applicants. Who more often than the norm ended up with good two ones or better.

So that's the story of The Dear Green Place.
++

But Glasgow split (still does?) three ways -- class/area/region. And you could stir in education, varieties thereof, the division between The Four Grammar Schools and the rest, which was money as much as anything else so in a way simply reflected class. Being (by the time I reached the site) middle-class Protestant West side [though I had earlier spent seven years living on the second floor of a Denniston tenement] all three divisions applied. Which made it all the odder we all got on so well.

"
The education in Ireland and in most parts of England, Scotland and Wales at that time was very high. I left school 6 months before my 16th birthday and I guarantee I am better educated than a lot of high school and even university students.
"

That's a factor, and I wouldn't go a bundle on the merits of "conventional" education. But that's maybe another story.

"
Sean South may have been deemed to be gay, I doubt it, but so what.
He was bespeckled and had the studious nerdy look about him but that does not make him gay or even a sissy. For right or for wrong he did his part and unfortunately lost his life because iof it, like so many others, both gay and straight.
"

I'm beginning to think that mibee the kids +were+ winding me up, as someone suggested. But I think more likely they were influenced by British black propaganda, a la Roger Casement. Dunno -- can't go back in time and ask.

Dunno if anyone would be interested in my posting the whole of The Dear Green Place? As it stands, I might try blaming the Black&Tan mistake on the ignorance of the eighteen-year old speaker [g].

Robin


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Subject: RE: Origins: Sean South of Garryowen
From: Big Tim
Date: 06 Dec 02 - 02:26 PM

Robin, what's all this about the Dear Green Place? Is this a reference to Archie Hind's 1966 novel of that name? If so, it's worth pointing out that "Glasgow" translates as "dear green place".

Ard: do you know where Lathlurcan is? I can't find it on any map.

Of course Casement WAS gay and a victim of the prejudice of the times (1916). The propaganda thing works both ways: I've heard some of the green contingent brand William of Orange as being homosexual!


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Subject: RE: Origins: Sean South of Garryowen
From: Robin
Date: 06 Dec 02 - 03:14 PM

Big Tim:

"
Robin, what's all this about the Dear Green Place? Is this a reference to Archie Hind's 1966 novel of that name? If so, it's worth pointing out that "Glasgow" translates as "dear green place".
"

Bit like -- I think I might have picked up on it initially from AH.

-- no, I think it's independent -- wasn't the Archie Hind novel Burns? So were're prolly independently ripping Glasgow's bird-that-never swam [etc.]

[There's many a true word spoken incest -- is this an Archie Hinds joke?]

But it goes drifty -- Tirn na Voig and the Arran Isles and Hy Brazil.

The Dear Green Place is not so much Paradise as a personal paradise --where you feel utterly at home.

Somewhere you're allowed for a time, but not allowed back.

It makes sense to me.

Robin


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Subject: RE: Origins: Sean South of Garryowen
From: Robin
Date: 06 Dec 02 - 03:47 PM

Oddly enough, the DT doesn't seem to have a text for a lyric of The Dear Green Place. Try this:

The Dear Green Place

It was a clear mornin' down near Bann
Where it meets and runs with the river Clyde
And they tell the tale of the holy one
Who was fishing down by the riverside
The holy man, from Fife he came
His name they say was Kentirgen
And by the spot where the fish was caught
The Dear Green Place was born

Though the salmon run through the river stream
And they salted them by the banks of Clyde
And their faces glow'd as the silver flow'd
And the place that rose by the riverside
There was cloth and dye and horse to buy
The traders came from all around
And they raised a glass to the Dear Green Place
The place that was a town

CHORUS: There is a town that once was green
And the river flowed to the sea
The river flows forever on
But the Dear Green Place is gone

When the furnaces came to fire the iron
And folk were thrown from foreign land
And the Irishman and the Heilan' man
And the hungry man came with willin' hands
They wanted work, a place to live
Their empty bellies needed filled
And the farmyard was another world
From the dirty overcrowded mill

Now you may have heard of the foreign trade
And fortunes made by tobacco lords
But the workin' man slaved his life away
And an early grave was his sole reward
A dreary room, a crowded slum
Disease and hunger everywhere
And the price to pay was another day
And fight the anger and despair

CHORUS:

A thousand years have been here and gone
Since Kentirgen saw the banks of Clyde
But how many dreams and how many tears
In the thousand years of a city's life
A city hard, a city proud
No mean city it has been
Perhaps tomorrow it yet may be
The Dear Green Place again. . . .

:-(

{vomit}

Robin

(Off to drown myself down the side of a bottle of Bells -- tomorrow, the VP an the cider.

R2.)

[Right, so I was wrong -- the Archie Hind novel doesn't mention Burns. So I was wrong. So sue me.

[g]

CP3O ]


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Subject: RE: Origins: Sean South of Garryowen
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 06 Dec 02 - 04:35 PM

Robin, I reckon you and I are just about contemporaneous, and I relate 100% to the attitude that you portray. What must be remembered however, is that myth/memory is selective and tales vary according to both geographical location, and in this case, politico/religious leanings. I am a 1942 vintage Glaswegian, and have for all my life been amazed, and repulsed by the songs, beliefs, and myths of both sides of the west of Scotland sectarian divide. The hatred and prejudice of my native heath, is the main reason that I left it many, many years ago.
Ceud mile failte.....Giok


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Subject: RE: Origins: Sean South of Garryowen
From: GUEST,Ard Mhacha
Date: 06 Dec 02 - 04:43 PM

Tim,the whereabouts of Lathlurcan I have been told is near Ballybay,I will find out and let you know. Ard Mhacha.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Sean South of Garryowen
From: Big Tim
Date: 06 Dec 02 - 05:53 PM

Ard: thanks. I've got a detailed map of Monaghan (inch to mile) but don't see it.

Robin, you've lost me. Try plain English! Like your attitude though.

Giok: what area of the dear green place, anywhere near Firhill?

An obit of SS says "shy, gentle-natured, even-tempered, a man above the ordinary, possessing fine qualities of mind and character".

He is still commemorated every year at the cemetery in Limerick where he is buried.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Sean South of Garryowen
From: Robin
Date: 06 Dec 02 - 06:03 PM

Attitude? Attitude!!

Split this thread, and we've got two horses running.

Was Sean South gay (and I agree, this is fairly nonsense), and Glasgow Sixties gang-handed [or not].

Eeep!!!!

[g]

Robin


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Subject: RE: Origins: Sean South of Garryowen
From: Robin
Date: 06 Dec 02 - 08:13 PM

An annecdote ....

I'd finally come through the sausage-machine and I was on a maybee three-year contract at Loughborough and they let me interview ...

So I was interviewing Mike Anderson.

Mike was a total fucking dead-head. He was a plumber, left school at fifteen, and was a con-man. We spent the interview batting around Dostoevesky.

Well ... par for the course.

Then, next day, we started horse-trading. I wasn't paying much attention, but in the backgound there was this running joke, "Who'd give HIM an offer?"

Amazingly enough, and this really does take +some+ doing, Mike had managed to insult absolutely bloody EVERYONE.

So after the laughter died down, they said: "Well, Robin you're first choice for an offer."

Ho, hum ... "Michael Anderson".

Well, to cut a story (and I'd been trained in Glasgow Student Politics) I got Mike a place at Loughborough.

Paid at the gate on that, and given i was on the bloody edge of tenture, the last thing i wanted to do was stir waves.

So (the trade-off was)"If you want him here, you teach him."

So I got lumbered with Mike.

First bloody thing he said to me was, "Robin, that was the most piss-awful lecture I've ever heard."

Well ...

It wouldn't have been that difficult to cut Mike down to size.

Thing was, he really didn't know how fucking offensive he could be.

Easy would be to chop him down.

I bloody TRAINED Mike, so when he was offensive, he was offensive deliberate, rather than accidental

[Ho boy, Mike on a bad day ...]

There were a lot of things, but Mike exited with a good 2:1 (surprise, surprise).

The one thing they'd never let me do was interview Head Girls of a Public School.

Well, I suppose this made sense, given that by the time I had mild tenure ...

The only applicants I liked were the ones who had this killer-reference: "This student is a Disruptive Influence." I had this odd assumption that any student who could manage to piss off their teachers enough ...

The only reason I got away with this was that the students, either mad public school or illiterate, who I picked, Did Well.

Wish I could work out how I did it ...

But there was this thing -- mostly, I couldn't give a flying fuck at the moon where they were coming from, all I cared about was where they were going to.

NOT how to get ahead in acedeme.

Robin


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Subject: RE: Origins: Sean South of Garryowen
From: Robin
Date: 07 Dec 02 - 12:40 AM

Big Tim said:

"Robin, you've lost me. Try plain English!"

Dunno what I'm sposed to explain.

There's the Glasgow bird/bush/bell:

"This is the bird that never sang,
This is the bell that never rang,
This is the fish that never swam"

The fish crops up in the lyric of "The Dear Green Place" I quoted earlier, but that's a literal salmon you could guddle for in the Clyde. As +if+. Try guddling for a salmon in the Clyde, and your hands would freeze off your wrists before you caught your supper.

... as to what the hell it means, +I+ could never work it out, but if you've a mind for puzzles and dirt ...

[g]

Robin


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Subject: RE: Origins: Sean South of Garryowen
From: Robin
Date: 07 Dec 02 - 12:51 AM

... stunningly irrelevant.

I was thinking around the ambiguities of the word "gang", either weaponed-up or simply the ones with the shovels -- the black gang.

But the heid yin was cawed the ganger.

"Ganger" doesn't seem to make it into _Survey of English Dialects_.

Odd that, but.

Robin


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Subject: RE: Origins: Sean South of Garryowen
From: Susanne (skw)
Date: 07 Dec 02 - 05:14 PM

Robin, I'd love to know how your workmates divined you were humming 'Sean South' rather than 'Roddy McCorley', which is its usual tune.

The Dear Green Place, which you post above, was written by Alan Reid of the Battlefield Band, and the lyrics can do with a little correcting in the first part. It probably has been posted elsewhere on Mudcat, but I'll put the corrections alongside this:

Line 1: It was by the clear Molendinar burn
Line 6: His name they say was Kentigern

Line 9: Now the salmon ran through the river stream
Line 13: There was cloth to dye and hose to buy

Line 18: And folk were thrown from the farmland

The Molendinar, IIRR, is the burn running through the oldest part of Glasgow, by the cathedral, and now mainly underground. Kentigern is St. Mungo, the legendary founder of the city. 'No mean city' in the last verse refers to another book, of this title, published by Alexander McArthur in 1935, which fixed Glasgow's image as a city of organised crime and hard men for a long time.

The song may be somewhat sentimental, but I don't think it's as bad as you make it! :-)

Apologies for not having anything to add on Sean South.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Sean South of Garryowen
From: Robin
Date: 07 Dec 02 - 06:48 PM

"
Robin, I'd love to know how your workmates divined you were humming 'Sean South' rather than 'Roddy McCorley', which is its usual tune.
"

Dunno to be honest, Susanne.

"
Line 1: It was by the clear Molendinar burn
"

Ah, that makes +much+ more sense ...

"
The song may be somewhat sentimental, but I don't think it's as bad as you make it! :-)
"

Yeah -- I was probably a bit too snappy about it. ;-)


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Subject: RE: Origins: Sean South of Garryowen
From: The Pooka
Date: 08 Dec 02 - 04:36 PM

Robin, *please* don't devolve yourself back down to the boring old "plain English"; yer much morebetter the other way. / An' speaking of the Other way as so we were: yeah, who cares? I canna' commentate upon "Glasgow Sixties gang-handed [or not]", never having had the pleasure (?) ("Eeep!!!", indeed); but Nun the less: Spot on, millwall: "Who cares about his sexuality - we're all asexual in the grave." Right Arm, man. Bold Sir Roger (Sodom & Begorrah) fought for freedom; what matter what else he did, or didn't? / 'In the Army Air Corps, my wingman was gay. I didn't give a damn. I didn't care whether he +was+ straight, as long as he could +shoot+ straight.' -- conservative Republican US Senator Barry Goldwater; RIP.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Sean South of Garryowen
From: Robin
Date: 08 Dec 02 - 06:44 PM

"
Robin, *please* don't devolve yourself back down to the boring old "plain English"; yer much morebetter the other way.
"

Don't encourage me, Pooka. (That an allusion tae Flann Whatsit?)

"
"Glasgow Sixties gang-handed [or not]", never having had the pleasure (?) ("Eeep!!!", indeed);
"

Wasn't that bad in the late sixties. Tongs and Cumbie, sure, but relatively civilised. When it blew apart to buggery was the early seventies, when the kids growing-up on the high-rise housing estates ('It looks like a jile, and it stinks') reached sixteen, with the nearest pub ten miles away. +Then+ it got bad, for a bit.

But (honest) I never was gang-handed -- Denniston was so deprived, it didn't even reach to a gang-structure. That was why the hard men came aw the wae frae Brigton tae try tae cop a lumber at the Denny Palais. Safer tae dae yir winchin at the Denny Palais than in the Gorbals.

Mind you, late on a Saturday night outside the Palais could be ... interesting. Studded belts were one thing, belts with the studs punched inwards and sharpened, something else. Nothing showed, but it took only seconds to get it out. Open razors in the sixties were well passe (Sillitoe had kicked them all down a stank long ago, and No Mean City was long in the past) but there were approximations. Amazing what you could create with five old pennies and a pencil ...

+Don't+ start me on this ...

But I was a mere wean when I lived in Denniston, so the only souvenier I have is a triangular scar on my left knee-cap (have I said this before?)

O tempora, o mores ...

Robin


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Subject: RE: Origins: Sean South of Garryowen
From: Big Tim
Date: 09 Dec 02 - 05:39 AM

My brother was stabbed by a gang of those morons while standing minding his own business outside the Halt Bar in Great Western Road (in the dear green place) in '66. He response wasn't sociological or literary. Don't let's romanticise mindless violence.

Hey Pook, whereyabeen!


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Subject: RE: Origins: Sean South of Garryowen
From: Jimmy C
Date: 09 Dec 02 - 10:06 AM

Robin, hope you like this little ditty on the Denistion Palais and it's patrons.?.

"Cod Liver Oil and the Orange Juice"



From out of the east there came a hard man
Ho, HO, Ho, all the way from Brigton
Ha, Ha, Ha Glory Hallelulah,
Cod Liver Oil and the Orange Juice.


He went into a pub and came out paralyetic
Ho, HO, Ho, Bells and Johnny Walker
Ha, Ha, Ha Glory Hallelulah,
Cod Liver Oil and the Orange Juice.


Does this bus go to the Deniston Palais ?
Ho, HO, Ho, I'm looking for a lumber
Ha, Ha, Ha Glory Hallelulah,
Cod Liver Oil and the Orange Juice.


He went into the dance and he met Hairy Mary
Ho, HO, Ho, The flue of the Gorbals
Ha, Ha, Ha Glory Hallelulah,
Cod Liver Oil and the Orange Juice.


He said Hi Mary, are you dancin?
Oh, No, No, it's just the way I'm standin
Ha, Ha, Ha Glory Hallelulah,
Cod Liver Oil and the Orange Juice.


They went down through the back close and into the dungy
Ho, HO, Ho, It wasnae for the first time
Ha, Ha, Ha Glory Hallelulah,
Cod Liver Oil and the Orange Juice.



Now Hairy Mary has had a little baby
Ho, HO, Ho, it's father's in the army
Ha, Ha, Ha Who do you think your kiddin
Cod Liver Oil and the Orange Juice.


Now Hairy Mary's brothers are lookin for the hard man
Ho, HO, Ho, He Joined the foreign legion
Ha, Ha, Ha Sahara under a camel, Cod Liver Oil and the Orange Juice.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Sean South of Garryowen
From: weerover
Date: 09 Dec 02 - 02:29 PM

If Big Tim can't place Feargal O'Hanlon then I don't have much chance of doing so, but I have definitely seen Ballybay given in some printed form.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Sean South of Garryowen
From: Robin
Date: 09 Dec 02 - 07:26 PM

Jimmy C:

"
Ho, HO, Ho, Bells and Johnny Walker
"

Of all the stunnning misreadings of this line, this bloody has to take the frelking biscuit ...

There are two echt-readings:

... the VP an the cider

or:

... the Lanliq and the cider.

Both readings turn on Fortified South African Wine.

There was a thing you could do with this, but ...

Both Bells and Johnny Walker were blended scotch whiskies -- NOT where the hardman frae Brigton wid be coming from.

Geeuz a break ...

The song was written by Carl McDougall (Hamish Imlach sang it but he didn't write it -- Carl McDougal did.)



Robin

{I once tried to chase-down all the versions of this.)

But NEVER in all my born days have I +ever+ encountered a version that switches from cheap sherry to blended scotch.

:-(

Robin

(Somewhere, I prolly have The Original, that might negociate between VP and Lanliq. As if.

R2.)

Oh ...

"
Ha Sahara under a camel
"

... it was "Sahara an ra camels"

I'm not sure whether anyone has ever pointed this out, but The Sunday Post in the early sixties was running a series of "I Was Tripped into the French Foreign Legion" stories.

So "Sahara an ra camels" is a DOUBLE fucking joke -- My da sneezed for furty eight hours fur the Post.

{double sigh}

Robin


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Subject: RE: Origins: Sean South of Garryowen
From: GUEST,Paul Burke
Date: 10 Dec 02 - 07:19 AM

Anyone got the rest of this?

It was on one beery New Year's Day
As the fifteenth pint went down,
A volunteer approached the bar
To buy another round.
But what he heard the landlord say,
It filled his heart with fear-
For the words that formed upon his lips
Were "The pub's run out of beer!"


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Subject: RE: Origins: Sean South of Garryowen
From: Big Tim
Date: 10 Dec 02 - 07:21 AM

Other slight corrections: should be,

"the flooer [flower] of the Gorbals",

"into the dunny" {the usually dark and deserted back stairs area of the tenement close).


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Subject: RE: Origins: Sean South of Garryowen
From: GUEST,Ard Mhacha.
Date: 10 Dec 02 - 02:11 PM

Talk about side-tracking,between discussing poofters, and Glasgow razor gangs, Robin why don`t you fly off to the nearest Christmas Card. Ard Mhacha.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Sean South of Garryowen
From: Jimmy C
Date: 10 Dec 02 - 08:18 PM

Robin. I just posted the words as I remember hearing them in Toronto, being sung by a Scottish Duo. Not being Scottish I probably didn't get the correct wording, but it is only a song after all, so don't have a seizure over it ?.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Sean South of Garryowen
From: ard mhacha
Date: 11 Dec 02 - 11:41 AM

No problem Jimmy, only codding. Ard Mhacha.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Sean South of Garryowen
From: Robin
Date: 11 Dec 02 - 07:31 PM

Jimmy:

Sorry to be so bad-tempered over this.

There's a bottom-line on "Cod Liver Oil and the Orange Juice."

It was written by Carl McDougal, it was sung by Hamish Imlach.

Sorry I went so snitty frit over "Bells and Johnny Walkers" -- if you too were looking down the wrong side of a bottle of Bells ...

I think I may have somewhere the echt-original.

I'll try and pull the stuff together -- crunch is you can easily gloss +any+ line in the pome +except+ "Cod liver oil and the orange juice."

This hoicks intae 1950s+ pregant Glasgow wimmen fed CLO&OJ in post-rationing fifties ...

Odd that, but ...

Manjana.

[Jeez, am I +so+ off the waw? that I get ma chops slapped over "irrelevancies"?

:-(

Robin

(off tae commit Unspeakable Acts on his Xmas 3.

3P3O.)


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Subject: RE: Origins: Sean South of Garryowen
From: Jimmy C
Date: 11 Dec 02 - 09:19 PM

Robin, Don't worry about it. I remember a part of another verse, (probably the 6th verse)

Come on now Mary, can I run ye Hame,
ho Ho Ho, I've got a pair of sand shoes ?
Ha Ha Ha, You're hell of a funny
CLO and the OJ.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Sean South of Garryowen
From: Robin
Date: 12 Dec 02 - 02:52 PM

"
Robin, Don't worry about it. I remember a part of another verse, (probably the 6th verse)
"

Thanks, Jimmy -- I really should remember not to post when I've been hitting the Bells.

"
Come on now Mary, can I run ye Hame,
ho Ho Ho, I've got a pair of sand shoes ?
Ha Ha Ha, You're hell of a funny
CLO and the OJ.

"

... it (well, one version) reads, "... got a pair o sannies".

Somewhere, I've what is purportedly the earliest version. Hamish Whyte (re)published it in Noise and Smoky Breath/Mungo's Tongues (an anthology of poems either closely or vaguely connected with Glasgow -- I had a poem in it where the +only+ connection with Glasgow was the title: 'The Girl I Met in Byres Road'. In the wake of that, I snailmailed Hamish to see what he had, and he sent me some stuff not included in the anthology.

If I have the energy, I'll try and put together what I've got (there's a long and funny glossing in Donald Saunders' _A Glasgow Diary_) and check it against the DigiTrad text.

Mostly, the references are pretty transparent (though as far as I know, I'm the only person ever to make the connection between the late fifties / early sixties Sunday Post obsession with the French Foreign Legion.

The major textual crux (heh, heh!) is whether it should read Lanliq or VP. I could look this up, I suppose. As Matt McGinn ...

... OUCH!! Freudian slip. Hamish Imlach. As far as I know, there isn't a recording of Matt McGinn singing it. Or am I wrong on this? Hope I am.

... sings it, it's VP, but then it was Carl McDougal what wrote it.

The obscure bit is the title itself -- Codliver Oil and the Orange Juice. Best bet on this is that these were provided free to expectant mothers (including Hairy Mary) in the fifties.

Off to drown my tendency to irrelevance in more Bells.

Hm ... See I already said all this, slightly drunkenly, earlier. Shows why I get ticked off for irrelevancy.

;-)

Robin

(Incidentally -- I'm too lazy to look this up -- is there a text of "Wee Johnny Lost his Johnny / Wae Doon the Broomilaw" lodged in DigiTrad?

R2.)


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Subject: RE: Origins: Sean South of Garryowen
From: Big Tim
Date: 12 Dec 02 - 03:12 PM

Robin, I think you're spot on re the origins of cod liver oil and the orange juice: that's the most interesting thing on this thread so far:I had never thought of it, or thought too much about it. Hey, Hamish Whyte: I used to know him well, worked together in the Mitchell Library. Jimmy: you did great job of rendering a song in a foreign language, and from memory too.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Sean South of Garryowen
From: Robin
Date: 12 Dec 02 - 04:52 PM

Big Tim:

"
Hey, Hamish Whyte: I used to know him well, worked together in the Mitchell Library.
"

Think he's still there (curator of the Rare MS Collection). Hamish and I were at school (Hutchie) thegither, but ... this is bloody odd ... nine year old entrants (me) and eleven year olds (him) didn't seem to mix.

Then we were at Uni thegither. BUT (again) ... This was at the height of The Glasgow Language Wars, and at that point, Hamish wasn't in the loop.

Then, of course, he turned into Eddie Morgan's Official Bibliographer, and started The Mariscat Press.

His latest poem is in the latest issue of _The Coffee House_. Last night, I was giving a joint reading with Debbie Tyler-Bennet (editor of The Coffee House)and she said, "You been in touch with Hamish recently?"

Answer is no, I have enough trouble remembering where my toes are located.

I'll see if I can at least dig out what Hamish sent me on the origins of CLO&OJ.

Bloody small world, i'n'tit?

Irrelevant Robin.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Sean South of Garryowen
From: Big Tim
Date: 12 Dec 02 - 04:57 PM

Robin: Hamish took early retirement about two years ago.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Sean South of Garryowen
From: Robin
Date: 12 Dec 02 - 06:34 PM

Tim:

"
Robin: Hamish took early retirement about two years ago.
"

Christ, whirligig o time -- Hamish is an age with me which makes him mid-fifties.

But is EVERYONE in the Whole Sick Crew going down that route?

Tom Allen (who was at Hutchie with the two of us) left his day-job to do sculpture.

God, in the sixties, you made a book on us, NOBODY (well, bar Tom and Hamish) would have their card marked, "survive".

Robin.

{Tim -- not codding -- ask Hamish.

R2.)


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Subject: RE: Origins: Sean South of Garryowen
From: GUEST,Moleskin Joe
Date: 13 Dec 02 - 05:36 AM

The VP v Lanliq question is a matter of chronology. Originally the words were VP(Virgin's Pish) but when Hamish sang it he updated it to Lanliq which had by that time superseded VP as the most popular form of electric soup.
There is also debate as to whether glaschu does translate as dear green place. It may just mean grey flat place or something like that.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Sean South of Garryowen
From: Big Tim
Date: 13 Dec 02 - 10:44 AM

Yes Joe, the place name is a bit of guess work: could also be "green hollow".


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Subject: RE: Origins: Sean South of Garryowen
From: GUEST,Moleskin Joe
Date: 13 Dec 02 - 10:44 AM

Wee Johnnie's lost his Jaury(or Jorry), not Johnny. If I get time at the weekend I will put in the words.
Good Luck.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Sean South of Garryowen
From: Robin
Date: 13 Dec 02 - 02:20 PM

Right. First. Carl MacDougall writing in _Chapbook_ in 1966:

"
HAIRY MARY

THIS song was written in George Square, Glasgow, one Friday morning some so years ago by Ron Clark and I after we had missed our late-night buses. At that time, many versions of "The Virgin Mary" were being sung around the West of Scotland clubs, and we had heard it once too often that night at Paisley. Though it may seem sacrilegious, the original &raft was on the back of a volume of Joe Corrie's poems.

Although Ron and I sang it, to mixed receptions, at one or two clubs, the song was soon by N CLARK & forgotten and it lay dormant until almost four months after CARL MacDOUGALL its inception, when we taught
it to Archie Fisher

WHAT happened after that anyone's guess. In the transcription Archie altered Some of the words and the song was picked up at various clubs around the country. Now 1 am told localised versions exist Perth and Dundee as well as Kirkcaldy where, apparently, the "Hard man" comes from Dysart [?] and goes to the Burnt—island Palais. Someone took the song to London and a version has also been heard in Dublin.

CHAPBOOK would be interested to hear from anyone who knows such versions or others we may have missed. Tell ue where you heard it, from whom and if you know who put it together. We will acknowledge all letters received and print as many as we can. If you any variants, please send them to: CHAPBOOK, 34 MONTAGUE STREET, GLASGOW C.4.

CM

Oot o' the East there cam' a hard man,
A', a', a' the way frae Brigton.

CHORUS;

Oh, oh, Glory Hallelujah,
Cod Liver Oil an' the Orange Juice.

He went intae a pub an' he cam' oct paralytic;
Aw haw, V.P. an' cider.

Does this bus go tae the Denny Palais,
"Aw haw, I'm lookin' fur a lumber."

In the Palais he met Hairy Mary,
Aw haw, the flo'er o' the Calton.

He says tae her: "Hey hen are ye dancin?"
"Naw, naw, it's just the way I'm staunin' .

He says tae her: "Yir wan in a million."
"Aw haw, so's yer chances."

"Can I run ye hame, I've got a pair o' sannies,"
"Aw haw, ye're helluva funny."

Up the back close an' doon the dunny,
Naw, naw, it wisnae for the first time.

Her Maw came oot tae go tae the didgy,
Aw haw, he buggered off sharpish.

She tried the find the hard man,
He'd jined the Foreign Legion;
Aw haw, Sahara an' the camels.

So Hairy Mary had a little baby,
Haw, haw, its faither's in the Army.
"

Right. So the FIRST version reads VP an the cider and Hairy Mary is the floor o the Carlton.

Jump to that piss-artist, Cliff Hanley:

This is pretty-much the original version, so i won't transcribe it -- she's still the floor o the Calton.

Then _A Glasgow Diary_, which gives a few glosses:

"
Carl MacDougall is born just in time to get himself an income tax rebate. Hard to believe this smiling babe will one day so far forget himself as to be irrevocably connected with that disreputable street-ballad, greatly relished by the vulgar element, known as "Cod Liver Oil and Orange Juice". Indeed, many believe it to be a folksong of hazy and ancient origin;* however, we confirm it is wholly the handcrafted work of the aforesaid and present it here, as it were, from the horse's mouth:

COD LIVER OIL AND THE ORANGE JUICE

It was oot o the east' there came a hard man,2
Aw haw, aa the way fae Brigton.3

Chorus

Ah-ha, Glory Hallelujah,
The cod liver oil and the orange juice.4

He went intae a pub and he came oot paraletic,5
Aw haw, the VP6 and the cider.

Does this bus go tae the Denny Palais?7
Aw haw, Ah'm lookin fur a lumber.

In the Palais he met Hairy8 Mairy.
Aw haw, the flooer o the Calton.

He says tae her, Tell me hen9 are ye dancin?
Aw naw, it's just the wey Ah'm staunin.

He says tae her, You're wan in a million,'0
Aw haw, so's your chances.

Can Ah run ye hame? Ah've got a pair of sannies,'11
Aw haw, you're helluva funny.

Up the back close and doon the dunny,'12
Aw haw, it wisnae for the first time.

Oot came her maw tae go tae the didgy,"'
Aw haw, he buggered off sharpish.

She's - tried tae find the hard man,
he's jined the Foreign Legion,
Aw haw, Sahara and the camels.

So Hairy Mairy had a little baby,
Aw haw, its faither's in the army.

The theme does owe something to the American Spiritual "The Virgin Mary had a Little Baby".

Glossary of Terms:

        1        "East" — The percipient reader will note that our hero, in order to travel west from Brigton to the "Denny Palais" must first go west by north-west, veering north-easterly round about the Gallowgate. Such an indirect approach is frequently adopted by the "hard man" on a "Saturday night".

        2        "hard man" — One insensitive to the claims of heart and conscience, as distinct from the demands of the genitals and belly.
        3        "Brigton" — Site of the Battle of the Boyne.
        4        "cod liver oil and the orange juice" see 6.
        5        "paraletic" (a) 1. affected with, suffering from, or subject to paralysis; palsied: 2, of the nature pertaining to paralysis: 3, deprived or destitute of energy or power of         action; powerless; ineffective; characterised by impotence or powerlessness. (b) Drunk.
        6        "VP" — Whether of the ruby, white or tawny variety this reasonably priced colonial wine is at all times robust,congenial and well rounded, making up in hearty good spirits what it lacks in pedigree. Slight aftertaste but considerable after effect. Should be served straight from the pocket, slightly chambre, or alfresco with chips. Here it is imbibed contrapuntally with a "chaser" of wood-        alcohol "cider" in what has become a classic combination Some connoisseurs would argue, however, that the only accompaniment necessary is a good boke and "Same again, Jimmy".
        7        "Palais" — From "Palais de Danse Macabre". Dennis        MacAbre was its first manager.
        8        "Hairy" — Not hirsute as such but female. (Pron: Herry.)
        9        "hen" — Form of address used towards the fair sex. N.B "hairy" may be a "hen" but a "hen" cannot be "hairy" only "feathery" or in some instances, "plucked".
        10        "one in a million" — The complex mathematical equation contained in this stanza can be expressed as follows: where
                Y"Hairy Mairy" and X"your chances":
                               Y=l/1 ,000,000
                                  x>.Y
                          Therefore X>1/1 ,000,000.
        11        "sannies" — gutties.
        12        "dunny" — The communal stairs serving the Glasgow tenement rises from a communal passage called the "close" linking the street entrance with a rear entrance to the communal drying green or back. Where this yard or back is on a lower level than the street, the close will have steps descending to a sunken area anterior to the rear 13 entrance. This is the dunny. "it" — Signifies a characteristic delicacy of nuance, whereby any event of particular physicality and/or emotional intensity is not so much explicated within the texture of meaning of the verse, as alluded to with the obliquity of suggestion, like a fart in a thunderstorm.

"didgy" — midden.
"

Robin.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Sean South of Garryowen
From: GUEST,Moleskin Joe
Date: 17 Dec 02 - 04:18 AM

I have just remembered that Eddie Chisnall in his book The Bird In The Tree gives the meaning as Mungo's Church. Glas for church and chu for the second syllable of Mungo's name. I don't know what the scholars would make of it but it certainly makes sense as a place name.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Sean South of Garryowen
From: Big Tim
Date: 17 Dec 02 - 03:01 PM

From "Collins Encyclopaedia of Scotland", edited by John and Julia Keay, 1994.

"The etymology of the name of Scotland's largest city is warmly disputed. It's derivation is surely Celtic and probably Gaelic; but with anglicized spellings varying widely from "glas-chu" to "glas-cun", the component words are uncertain, let alone their precise meaning. In the heyday of 19th cent. industrialisation "glas" was taken to mean "grey", leading to such seemingly appropriate translations as "the grey blacksmith" ("gow" suggesting "gobha", a smith)or "the grey hound ferry" ("cu", a dog).

Currently the favoured derivations are more pastoral and cultural with "glas" taken to indicate "green" or a "church". Hence the popular "dear green place", "green hollow", "dear stream", "green cloister", "dear cloister", "church within the enclosed space", "church of Cun(tigernus) [Kentigern], etc".

A gift to the imagemakers, such uncertainty also accords well with the City's occasional need to reinvent itself."

That seems to cover most bases but it's a long, long way from Garryowen to here!


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Subject: RE: Origins: Sean South of Garryowen
From: Robin
Date: 17 Dec 02 - 06:03 PM

The Dear Green Place ...

Been mooching around this, and the best I can get is:

"
glas

grey, Irish glas, green, pale, Early Irish glass, Welsh, Old Welsh, Breton glas, green: *glasto-, green; German glast, sheen (Bez.), root glas, to which German glass, English glass, are probably
"

... so the Gaelic has as the first element Gaelic "green".

(Where the fuck "dear" comes frae, god only knows.)

As for "cu" -- someone else wi better Gaelic than me can chase this. I'm totally bamjacked on it.

So the friggin "Dear [sic] Green Place" seems tae be a late nineteenth-century coignage.

Anyboy got a better call on this ... ?

:-(

Robin


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Subject: RE: Origins: Sean South of Garryowen
From: Jimmy C
Date: 18 Dec 02 - 08:54 AM

Hi Big Tim, looking at the definitions given by Robin, and some previous postings from the late LJC it sure does appear to be a foreign language indeed. It's wonderful how a simple posting about Sean South can end up discussing the origins of Glasgow and Hard Men etc. You were right when you said I recited what I knew about the song from memory, unfortunately my memory from those days is very cloudy indeed.The duo who sang the song in Toronto also had another one about the Glasgow gangs, maybe Robin or someone else will be able to supply the complete correct version. What I do remember went something like -
To the tune of Botany Bay



You've heard of the Billy and Sally
?????????????????????????

Here's some others to add to your tally
The Derry and the Cumberland boys


Now the Derry Boys are Roman Catholic
To Chapel they've been once or twice
And Parkhead is their new Jerusalem
And Jock Stein the latter days Christ


When asked what they think of religion
They say Och religions all right
But the only time they are religios
Is when they want an excuse for a fight



Anybody know this song ?.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Sean South of Garryowen
From: Big Tim
Date: 18 Dec 02 - 09:24 AM

I used to know that song. The Clutha sometimes sang it live. I recall some of your missing line Jimmy: "the Billy Boys? and the San Toi (or Toy, another gang)". A guy called James? Patrick wrote a book called "A Glasgow Gang Remembered" c. 1970. (He was a scholar, not a gangster). Anyone got that?                                                               

It seems that an authoritative definition of the meaning of "Glasgow" is probably now beyond us. The "dear" bit does seem to be an invention.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Sean South of Garryowen
From: GUEST,Moleskin Joe
Date: 18 Dec 02 - 10:17 AM

This is another song Hamish Imlach used to sing. It's on his first LP I think. It's Billys and Sallys and the second line is Norman Conks and San Tois. All Glasgow gangs. It ends up So don't wear a green scarf in Brigton or a blue scarf in Cumberland Street unless you're a heavyweight champion, or hell of a quick on your feet.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Sean South of Garryowen
From: Jimmy C
Date: 18 Dec 02 - 03:24 PM

Thanks Tim and Moleskin Joe, can anyone remember any more ?. I think I may have it on an old LP by the " Bonny Scots" but can't lay my hands on it at the minute.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: The Derry and Cumberland Boys
From: Susanne (skw)
Date: 19 Dec 02 - 06:19 PM

There's another Glesga thread with the lyrics: Click here


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Subject: RE: Origins: Sean South of Garryowen
From: Big Tim
Date: 20 Dec 02 - 09:50 AM

Thanks Suannne, you German gem you! Here's another Glasgow "street song" from that era, nothing to do with gangs tho:

Last night there was a murder in the chip shop,
When a wee dug stole a haddie bone,
An' a big dug tried tae take it aff it,
So I hit it wi a tattie scone.

I went roon tae see ma Auntie Sarah,
Ma Auntie Sarah wisnae in,
So I peeped through a hole in the windae,
An I shouted "Auntie Sarah, are ye in"?

Her false teeth were lying on the table,
Her curly wig was lying on the bed,
An I nearly burst ma sides wi laughin,
When I saw her screwin aff her widden leg!

That's all I can recall, funtunately!


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Subject: RE: Origins: Sean South of Garryowen
From: GUEST,JTT
Date: 21 Dec 02 - 03:08 PM

From all I've heard of Sean South, he was a terribly serious, rather humourless young man who was killed in a hideous ambush in an operation that went horribly wrong.

He was a cousin, as it happens, of Gregory Peck. First cousin, I think, but I'm not sure, might be second cousin.

But if you want gay, look to the Irish Guards - according to a recent biography of Anthony Blunt, they were the gay prostitutes favoured by the crowd of upper-class British homosexuals Blunt hung out with - you went to a pub, can't remember the name, and chose an Irish Guardsman, and put a folded ten-bob note in his boot - if he accepted, he went round the back of the pub with you...


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Subject: RE: Origins: Sean South of Garryowen
From: Big Tim
Date: 21 Dec 02 - 04:33 PM

JTT: where did you hear all that about SS?


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Subject: RE: Origins: Sean South of Garryowen
From: Big Tim
Date: 21 Dec 02 - 04:45 PM

PS re Greg Peck; you're confusing SS with Thomas Ashe who died on hunger strike in 1918, ten years before SS was born.

Seriousness is surely no bad thing anyway: "deeply agreeable to the heart" according to Leonard Cohen.

Re "want gay": Me, I want people, who have some idea what they are talking about.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Sean South of Garryowen
From: Big Tim
Date: 21 Dec 02 - 05:33 PM

My mistake: Thomas Ashe died in 1917. SS was born on 8 February 1928.

Jimmy C: have you seen the 2001 NI census figures?


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Subject: RE: Origins: Sean South of Garryowen
From: Jimmy C
Date: 21 Dec 02 - 06:20 PM

Tim,
I just got a glimpse of the headlines, approx (54% protestant and 44% Catholic). I am still amazed that some unionists politicians feel that this is good news for them. Their majority has been steadily declining year after year, but they still insist that they have nothing to fear regarding an united Ireland.


The numbers are not what I expected to be sure, I was figuring on maybe 51% protestant and 47 % catholic. It does not really matter, the important thing is it shows a declining majority and hopefully this will be enough to make them realize that the best road open to them is the road to peace and reconciliation with their catholic neighbours, (before it's too late).
The numbers also could be a little suspect as people who declined to answer the religous question were assumed to be protestant or catholic based on their address.
It does show a much younger catholic population compared to the protestants, so it's only a matter of time really until the catholics have the majority, Whether this leads to a united country or not will I suppose depend on many factors at that time.
I'm just delighted to see that their bigoted, unjust and corrupt system is finally nearing it's end.
If only the hoops could come up with a string of victories life would be so much sweeter. Hail Hail.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Sean South of Garryowen
From: Big Tim
Date: 22 Dec 02 - 05:50 AM

According to the bbc (which I trust!), the figures are 53.1% Protestant, 43.8% Catholic. The projection is 50/50 in 20 years.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Sean South of Garryowen
From: iRiShBaBe
Date: 22 Dec 02 - 04:11 PM

The story of Sean South is that himself, and a 15 year old boy went to take the english on and lost. He thought it would be seen as heroic....


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Subject: RE: Origins: Sean South of Garryowen
From: ard mhacha
Date: 25 Dec 02 - 07:18 AM

A Monaghan friend informs me that Lathlurcan Cemetery is just a short walking distance from Monaghan Town, on the Dublin Road. Ard Mhacha.


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Subject: Sean South of Garryowen
From: GUEST,Vonny
Date: 07 Jan 03 - 03:22 PM

Hi folks
I just came across this thread. I am from Limerick and grew up knowing a lot about this fellow. I just returned from Limerick where on Sunday I went to a Sean South Commemoration march through Limerick City to the Republican Plot where he is buried.
Sean South was a friend of my grandfather also called Sean, though grandad was a lot older than South. My grandfather was one of the "Lorry Load" they were ambushed at Brookeborough county Fermanagh on New Years Day 1957. Granda later escorted souths body back to Limerick to be buried. I visited Brookeborough several years ago, its a small tidy town with a huge Orange Order Hall, I have the original IRA obits of both South and O'Hanlon framed on my wall, they were handed down to me from grandad. It gives Souths age as 28 but grandad always said he was 31 and O'Hanlans age as 20.I also have a picture of them marching in '56 up William Street in Limerick to the Limerick Prison with an "End Partition" banner. According to the old man, who died in 1991, they were a part of the "Border Campaigns" where they attacked border posts to try and end the partition that devided the 6 counties in the north from the rest of the country. It was said by my grandmother, but I have no proof, that O'Hanlons relative was dating a british soldier and pillow talk gave away the plans for the attack and so they were ambushed. South and O'Hanlon were shot dead. South was an ardent Irish Speaker and would insist that anyone he talked to at least tried to speak in Irish. He was not a homosexual as far as I know. He was about to marry a teacher. I know her name, she taught me in second grade and again in fifth, she is still alive so I will not give her name out here. She never married anyone else.
These poems appear below the photos on the mens obits.
South : Rest on. embalmed and sainted dead, dear as the blood ye gave! No impious footstep here shall tread the herbage of your grave. Nor shall your glory be forgot while fame her record keeps.
or Honour points the hallowed spot where valour proudly sleeps.
O'Hanlon : This muffled drums sad roll has beat the soldiers last tatoo:
No more on lifes parade shall meet that brave and fallen few.
On Fames eternal camping ground their silent tents are spread,
And glory gaurds, with solemn round, the bivouac of the dead. Both poems by O HARA
In Loving Memory of Seán Sabat agus Feargal O h-Annluaín
"In proud memory of two brave Irishmen who gave their lives for Ireland at Brookeborough, County Fermanagh on new Years Day 1957. Their Nobel sacrifice and herioc death in battle against the British Occupation Forces, will continue to shine as a star to guide the youth of Ireland along the true path to Freedom. May they rest in peace."
There is another poem "Sean agus Feargal" by Libhin Nic Gabhann on the back that is too long to post here. and some quotes from Padraic Mac Pairais and Robert Emmet.
I went along to the march to take photos and listen to a great Fife and Drum band from Youghal county Cork. There was a large crowd of young and old, so south is still a popular hero around Limerick it seems. I never met him, he died before I was born. If anyone would like to know the larger poem you can email me at ireland@capital.net
I hope this helps. Slainte!
Von


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Subject: RE: Origins: Sean South of Garryowen
From: Susanne (skw)
Date: 07 Jan 03 - 09:08 PM

Definitely a Mudcat moment! Thanks, Vonny.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Sean South of Garryowen
From: ard mhacha
Date: 08 Jan 03 - 07:41 AM

Thanks Vonny for putting a lot of nonsense to rest about Sean South. Ard Mhacha.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Sean South of Garryowen
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Apr 04 - 09:16 AM

There is a great account of sean south's life and death in 'Milestones in Murder' by Hugh Jordan. The author is from Glasgow, but lives in Ireland. He claims the Brookeborough raid in which South and O'Hanlon were killed was betrayed by an informer called George Poyntz. Poyntz survived as a police mole inside the IRA for 40 years until he was pulled out in the 1990's.

Gorbals Boy


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Subject: RE: Origins: Sean South of Garryowen
From: GUEST,Seamus Brogan
Date: 04 Apr 04 - 01:10 PM

Last year at the All Ireland Fleadh Cheoil in Clonmel, I sung a song about Feargal O Hanlon and a lady in the audience came up to me and said that she had worked with O Hanlon in Monaghan Town Hall.She told me she had known with him for many years and worked with him for 2 years. She had never heard the song before and asked me for the words.She had first hand information on the raid on Brookborough Barracks. To reply to boglion, there was definately a man from Wexford on thet lorry load because he was a neighbour and good friend of mine.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Sean South of Garryowen
From: Big Tim
Date: 04 Apr 04 - 03:43 PM

I published the names of all the men in my book last year. It's not secret as they were published in "Saoirse" the organ of RSF February 2001. http://rsf.ie According to this the Wexford man is now dead.

I've orderd Hugh Jordan's book and look forward to reading it, but I can't see that if the men had been betrayed by an informer, why there was only one policeman in the station, and how the men all managed to escape over the border, about 12 miles away, in a clapped out lorry. Any ideas?


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Subject: RE: Origins: Sean South of Garryowen
From: Big Tim
Date: 04 Apr 04 - 03:48 PM

Seamus, I forgot to say: do you know the song "Feargal O'Hanlon"? It starts "O hark to the tale of young Feargal O'Hanlon, who died in Brookeborough to make Ireland free..."


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Subject: RE: Origins: Sean South of Garryowen
From: Dave Bryant
Date: 05 Apr 04 - 10:41 AM

I agree with Susanne, if Robin's friends just heard him whistling the tune, they's have probably assumed it was "Roddy MaCauley" - so was there any chance that he was the one that Robin's colleagues thought was "a poofter". On the other hand, if South was a rather detached, accademic type, that might have been the sort of opinion that a building site "Mick" would have had of him.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Sean South of Garryowen
From: GUEST,Seamus Brogan
Date: 05 Apr 04 - 02:30 PM

The Wexford man is now dead God rest his soul, but he has 3 sons living in the same area around Enniscorthy. Yes to Big Tim, I have been singing this song for some years now. I first heard my mother sing it nearly forty years ago. I later learned the song from the late Frank Bryson (ar dheis De go raibh a anam usail) well known ballad singer from South Armagh and Dublin.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Sean South of Garryowen
From: Big Tim
Date: 05 Apr 04 - 03:56 PM

FEARGAL O'HANLON

Oh! Hark to the tale of young Feargal O'Hanlon,
Who died in Brookeborough to make Ireland free,
For his heart he had pledged to the cause of his country,
And he took to the hills like a bold rapparee.

And he feared not to walk to the walls of the Barracks,
A volley of death poured from window and door,
Alas for young Feargal, his life's blood for freedom,
On Brookeborough's pavements profusely did pour.

When the smoke and the din of the battle were over,
And Feargal was borne by his comrades away,
He asked them to fly from that place and take cover,
But he died in the hands of the foe on that day.

God strike from your hands, all you hirelings and traitors,
The weapons that murdered our brave volunteer,
God grant to us freedom, the dream of O'Hanlon,
And take from our valleys, all sorrow and fear.

Died 1 January 1957.
"rapparee" = outlaw, rebel.
Tune: "Teddy O'Neill"?
Any amendments or more verses?


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Subject: RE: Origins: Sean South of Garryowen
From: GUEST,Sean MacDiarmada
Date: 05 Apr 04 - 08:34 PM

Thanks for giving us that Big Tim. I never heard this song about Fergal O'Hanlon before.
But when I worked in London in the 80's a friend of mine from Glasgow used to sing an "extra" verse at the beginning of Sean South. Not the usual spoken intro but another verse. I can't remember it as all that period is lost in a haze but if anyone has it I'd like to see it again.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Sean South of Garryowen
From: Big Tim
Date: 06 Apr 04 - 06:18 AM

It wasn't this one, was it?

May God be with those noble hearts,
May heaven be their home,
They never feared the RUC,                                          Or B-Specials on patrol,
In Brookeborough town, they were shot down,
In a cabin they lay cold,
O'Hanlon from old Monaghan town,
Sean South of Garryowen.

By Pat McManus, died in Cavan in 1958.

Source; "Saoirse"


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Subject: RE: Origins: Sean South of Garryowen
From: GUEST,Seamus Brogan
Date: 06 Apr 04 - 01:41 PM

Big Tim: That's the song as I know it word for word. It's sung to the air of Teddy O Neill. Do you know who wrote it.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Sean South of Garryowen
From: Big Tim
Date: 06 Apr 04 - 03:50 PM

No Seamus: no idea. These things are, understandably, kept quiet to outsiders, unfortunately for historians. I found it on an anon "rebel" compilation. Sounds like Declan Hunt singing it. Thanks for confirming the melody, my musical ear is not very good.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Sean South of Garryowen
From: GUEST,Sean MacDiarmada
Date: 06 Apr 04 - 10:17 PM

Thanks Big Tim but that's not the extra verse I'm thinking of. I have heard that one before. I'll have to try to dredge up a few words of the one I'm thinking of.
Sean


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Subject: RE: Origins: Sean South of Garryowen
From: GUEST,elvis
Date: 02 Aug 04 - 11:35 PM

hello
My name is elvis. I am an american film student. I have heard the song Patriot Game and was very intreaged by the srory. I do not want to affend anyone but for such a good song to be written there must be a good story behind it. Please do not get upset with me. I don't know the irish history but I have to admit that one song has prompted me to learn more. Is'nt that what it's all about? If anyone can give a history leason on O'hannlon I would be forever thankful.

Elvis


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Subject: RE: Origins: Sean South of Garryowen
From: MartinRyan
Date: 07 Aug 04 - 05:06 AM

BigTim

With that opening line, I would have expected "Bard of Armagh" as the tune! Haven't heard the song.

Regards

p.s. Never did get to Hughes' that night - you still owe me a drink!


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Subject: RE: Origins: Sean South of Garryowen
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 07 Aug 04 - 04:34 PM

My father served in the Irish Guards during the 39-45 unpleasantness. he was in the guards armoured division driving a tank . He died in February this year and he always had nightmares about the stuff he went through as a tank driver. His regiment went into action 2 days after D-Day and he would never discuss what he saw and did, but he always said that only way to describe it was wholesale slaughter.

I suppose he would have been described in modern parlance as homophobic. I think it very unlikely he would have been happy in a gang of homosexuals - even as Isherwood would have said - homosexual for commercial reasons: and he had a great affection for his old regiment - even to my mother's horror (she was a Quaker) thinking it would be an okay place for me to serve when I was about four. Still I'm glad Blunt got lucky one night at least.

he did say that none of Irish comrades dared go home in uniform when they had a furlough - not wearing an English uniform. And from the Enniskillen bombing at the memorial, I suppose that attitude must still prevail in places. I think those men who fought against Hitler did their nation a favour. Hitler wouldn't have been any nicer to the Celtic nations than he was to the Slavic ones.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Sean South of Garryowen
From: GUEST,James
Date: 22 Oct 04 - 12:28 AM


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Subject: RE: Origins: Sean South of Garryowen
From: GUEST,sean og
Date: 25 Aug 05 - 12:31 PM

just a good tune


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Subject: RE: Origins: Sean South of Garryowen
From: GUEST,Guest, Big Tim
Date: 25 Aug 05 - 01:20 PM

The only biography of Sean South is "Maraíodh Sean Sabhat Aréir" (Sean South Died Last Night?) by Mainchín Seoighe (Mannix Joyce), born in 1920, still alive but frail. Published in 1964. It's never been translated. Still available occasionally second-hand. It includes many interesting photos including one of the barn where Sean South died.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Sean South of Garryowen
From: GUEST,jonsul
Date: 25 Nov 05 - 05:10 AM

Big Tim you say you published the names in your book..How do I get the book?


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Subject: RE: Origins: Sean South of Garryowen
From: GUEST,jonsul
Date: 25 Nov 05 - 07:26 AM

By the way I got Seoige's book in the local library and can do a chapter by chapter synopsis (in English) for anyone who's interested.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Sean South of Garryowen
From: Susanne (skw)
Date: 26 Nov 05 - 08:14 PM

Jonsul, if you became a member of Mudcat (at no cost) you could send Big Tim a personal message. I'm not sure the book is available through booksellers, but it's well worth buying.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Sean South of Garryowen
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Nov 05 - 05:31 AM

Thanks for that Suzanne..I'll join now.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Sean South of Garryowen
From: GUEST,Nuala
Date: 27 Nov 05 - 12:07 PM

Hi, I have been searching for a recording of the Ballad of Fergal O'Hanlon which Big Tim wrote out the words of in this thread. Does anyone know where I can get this and also a copy of the book Milestones in Murder by Hugh Jordan?


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Subject: RE: Origins: Sean South of Garryowen
From: GUEST,Guest, Big Tim
Date: 28 Nov 05 - 06:33 AM

My Mudcat membership has lapsed. My book can be obtained direct from the publisher's website: Beyond the Pale Publications. Cost incl p+p = 11.99 sterling.

The Feargal O'Hanlon song is on various "rebel" compilations. Availability will depend on what part of the world you are in. I got mine in Tower in Glasgow many years ago. The tune is "Teddy O'Neill", so you can sing it yourself!

I haven't checked, but I'd be amazed if Hugh Jordan's book isn't available on Amazon. Used copies should also be readily and cheaply available on the ABE site.

(Hi Susanne).


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Subject: RE: Origins: Sean South of Garryowen
From: Susanne (skw)
Date: 28 Nov 05 - 05:26 PM

Hi John, what do you mean, lapsed? Seems the PM got through all right! Thanks for looking in on us anyway :-)


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Subject: RE: Origins: Sean South of Garryowen
From: GUEST,Guest, Big Tim
Date: 29 Nov 05 - 04:16 AM

Susanne, I got a new PC about six months ago and chose not to transfer my Mudcat membership on to it. So, I haven't seen any PMs since then. If any have been sent, they must be floating around somewhere in cyberspace!

btw Hugh Jordan's book is available on Amazon (UK).


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Subject: RE: Origins: Sean South of Garryowen
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 30 Nov 05 - 02:18 AM

Regarding that slur on the name of Volunteer Sean Sabhat. Sean remained faithful to his childhood sweetheart Catherine Gallagher.The stone barn in which both he and Volunteer O'Hanlon died was razed by the British Army in 1985 the night before a planned anniversary.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Sean South of Garryowen
From: jonsul
Date: 30 Nov 05 - 04:11 AM

Isn't that so typical of the Brits and their lackeys in our country. And with the situation as it is we can include some big name politicians in that.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Sean South of Garryowen
From: GUEST,Chris B (Born Again Scouser)
Date: 30 Nov 05 - 04:17 AM

Weelittledrummer,

Well said. I think that the many thousands of Irish men and women (including those from the Republic) who fought against Nazi Germany did more for Irish freedom than a thousand Sean Souths (or Bobby Sands' or Gerry Adamses). Are they honoured or remembered in Ireland?


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Subject: RE: Origins: Sean South of Garryowen
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 30 Nov 05 - 04:32 AM

Very true, Winston Churchill offered Eamon De Valera Irish unity behind the backs of the Unionists if he joined him in the fight against the German forces !


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Subject: RE: Origins: Sean South of Garryowen
From: IanC
Date: 30 Nov 05 - 04:54 AM

Jonsul

I see you're new here. Was your comment in the nature of a sweeping racist statement or did you have acloser definition of what you mean by "Brits"?

Just asking
Ian


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Subject: RE: Origins: Sean South of Garryowen
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 30 Nov 05 - 05:05 AM

I wrote that a while back. I wasn't trying to dis the IRA or the republican movement. They're entitled to their heroes.

I was just saying something about the Irishmen who fought with my Dad. they did something good for the world (including Ireland) when they helped to see off Hitler - whatever uniform they were wearing at the time.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Sean South of Garryowen
From: GUEST,Chris B (Born Again Scouser)
Date: 30 Nov 05 - 05:10 AM

Divis,

Very true. And De Valera turned Churchill down because he didn't want a million protestants in his precious catholic republic.

Talking about Irishmen who fought in the British forces during World War 2, here's an interesting link about James Magennis, a catholic from West Belfast who was Northern Ireland's only VC of the war:

http://www.victoriacross.net/forum_topic.asp?topics=30&tid=1736


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Subject: RE: Origins: Sean South of Garryowen
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 30 Nov 05 - 05:21 AM

Chris if you were not a born again scouser, but a natural heir to this devils brew of religious nonsense - you would not be stirring it!


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Subject: RE: Origins: Sean South of Garryowen
From: GUEST,Chris B (Born Again Scouser)
Date: 30 Nov 05 - 05:55 AM

Weelittledrummer,

Check out your history and then tell me I'm wrong. Have you looked at the link I suggested? Perhaps you should do so before you waste my time.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Sean South of Garryowen
From: GUEST,Chris B (Born Again Scouser)
Date: 30 Nov 05 - 06:30 AM

Mind you, Divis, De Valera may also have turned Churchill down because he simply didn't trust him. I probably wouldn't have in Dev's position.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Sean South of Garryowen
From: jonsul
Date: 30 Nov 05 - 07:11 AM

Ian you take it anyway you like, after 800 years its hard to be non judgemental of a particular race.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Sean South of Garryowen
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 30 Nov 05 - 07:49 AM

No ones arguing with the facts, just the wisdom of dragging them up.

And let's face it, we know those who are judgemental are thick as shite.

Christy Moore sang:-

Only the very safe, can talk about wrong and right
Of those who are forced to choose, some will choose to fight.

Judging by that, I think we have been infiltrated by the Provisional Wing of the Tumbridge Wells (very safe) Young Conservatives, and they want to break the current uneasy ceasefire on Mudcat.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Sean South of Garryowen
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 30 Nov 05 - 08:31 AM

As a Republican myself I may not honour those Irishmen that fought in two World Wars, but I still respect them. Everyone is entitled to their traditions and respect should be given to all. My fathers two brothers were both officers in the Air Force during the last war, they held their view as I hold mine.Regarding Jim Magennis, even Unionists here in Belfast acknowledge the fact he wasn't honoured in the city until two years ago was Sectarian. Jimmy Magennis never had a problem with this himself, he had grown up with it.On the other hand, Blair Mayne another Ulsterman who won the D.S.O.and several bars to it in World War two was held in very high esteem, until he killed himself whilst drunk at the wheel of his car.Had he won the V.C. I imagine he would of been a public figure.So as it was then, lets hope it's to become history.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Sean South of Garryowen
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 30 Nov 05 - 09:02 AM

well said


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Subject: RE: Origins: Sean South of Garryowen
From: GUEST,Chris B (Born Again Scouser)
Date: 30 Nov 05 - 09:04 AM

weelittledrummer,

Ah well. If Christy says it it must be right. Thanks for putting me straight. And there's me wasting all this time reading books.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Sean South of Garryowen
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 30 Nov 05 - 01:15 PM

any time


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Subject: RE: Origins: Sean South of Garryowen
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Jul 06 - 12:30 PM


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Subject: RE: Origins: Sean South of Garryowen
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Jul 06 - 12:49 PM

Guest of 21st july, I wouldn`t be too sure, you could tryagain.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Sean South of Garryowen
From: GUEST,terry
Date: 29 Oct 06 - 03:48 AM

sean south was killed on new years eve not first of jan


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Subject: RE: Origins: Sean South of Garryowen
From: GUEST,kevin mcgowan
Date: 03 Nov 07 - 10:22 PM

THE RAIDING PARTY   THAT ATTACKED BROOKBOROUGH R U C BARRACKS    IN JANUARY 1957   WAS NOT AMBUSHED OR INFORMED ON.       THEY PARKED THEIR BEDFORD TRUCK ON THE OPPOSITE SIDE OF THE STREET FROM THE BARRACKS   WITH THE ARMED GUNMEN IN THE BACK AND SET UP TWO BOMBS AGAINST THE BARRACK WALL.   WITH THE HOPE OF DEMOLISHING THE BUILDING AND KILLING ALL INSIDE,      IT WAS ONLY AFTER THIS GREAT BALLSUP OCCURED THAT THE STATION SARGENT DISCOVERED WHAT WAS HAPPENING .    A BRENGUN HAD BEEN ADDED TO THE   RUC ARMS A FEW DAYS EARLIER.   THE REST IS HISTORY.    WHAT A TRAGIC LOSS OF YOUNG IRISH LIVES, RED HEADED SOUTH   AND HIS MATE O'HANLON.          GIVE PEACE IN IRELAND A GO AND PUT THE PAST BEHIND US


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Subject: RE: Origins: Sean South of Garryowen
From: GUEST,Ger Costelloe
Date: 21 Dec 07 - 09:58 AM

Just to clear up one aspect of this discussion.
My Father Sean Costelloe did in fact write the lyrics for the song.
And is the published writer of the works.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Sean South of Garryowen
From: An Buachaill Caol Dubh
Date: 21 Dec 07 - 11:44 AM

Further to Robin on 7th Dec five years ago; the fish that never swam, bell that never rand and bird that never flew;

these all appear on the Coat of Arms of Glasgow; a wee bird perched atop a tree, this tree having an open book in its branches on one side and a bell hingin' on the other, with below it a salmon wi' a gowd ring in its mooth. This last alludes to Kentigern's finding some princess' lost ring in the salmon he caught in the Clyde, or maybe Molendinar (this kind of story is found everywhere).


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Subject: RE: Origins: Sean South of Garryowen
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 22 Dec 07 - 05:11 AM

Very interesting Ger. Woud you like to tell us a little about the man who wrote this famous song, and maybe the feelings that inspired it? I have heard various stories. One was about the train being honoured carrying the bodies, and there being a memorial service outside the GPO in Dublin.

On the other hand I know several people who were living in Dublin at the time and they all say they can't remember anything about it particularly.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Sean South of Garryowen
From: gnu
Date: 22 Dec 07 - 11:41 AM

Yes, indeed. Please do.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Sean South of Garryowen
From: GUEST,Angie South
Date: 28 May 08 - 05:56 PM

Hello, I came across your post while doing research for a paper that I'm writing on, Sean South. I am a direct decendant of Seans'. My Father is named after him, Sean South. We live in the United States, however, my Father goes to Ireland once a year and is highly regarded as the Great-Great Nephew of Sean South of Garryowen.

I would like to know more about my Great-Great-Great Uncle. Should anyone have additional information, I would surely appreciate knowing.
You may send it directly to my e-mail address: asouth262@aol.com

Thank you.....


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Subject: RE: Origins: Sean South of Garryowen
From: trevek
Date: 29 May 08 - 07:44 AM

weelittle drummer, on the matter of wearing uniforms to go home, when I was in the army in 1980's the Irish lads who were due leave used to get permission to grow their hair longer than regulation length so as not to show they were squaddies.

An earlier post asked about a book "Glasgow Gangs Remembered". I haven't read that one but I used to have a recent one "Tongs Ya Bas!".

Interesting info but writtn in an incredibly stupid manner which kind of negated a lot of the positive aspects.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Sean South of Garryowen
From: GUEST,Terence Saunders
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 09:37 AM

Having just visited this site for the first time I am interested in the debate on origin of "Sean South of Garryowen" and the claim of 5th December 2002 that this may in someway be connected to Cathal Ó Sándair seems to be adequately challenged. I knew Cathal ó Sándair well and proud to say I am his eldest son so why wouldn't I ? Cathal was indeed a wonderful father and very gifted writer though I doubt if he would even claim the remotest credit for a connection with this song. I believe I am aware of most or all of my late father's writing endeavours - if anyone has any further "pearls of wisdom" to offer me about my Dad or his writings I would be happy to hear ! Terence Saunders (Moscow)


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Subject: RE: Origins: Sean South of Garryowen
From: MartinRyan
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 09:59 AM

Terence

Is maith is cuimhin liom an sult a bhaineas as scríobhnóireacht d'athair agus mé im óige! Beir bua!

Regards


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Subject: RE: Origins: Sean South of Garryowen
From: GUEST
Date: 08 Oct 08 - 04:26 PM

im doing my project on sean sabhat now for school....he was actually quite a selfless man.... ye should all read ''séan south'' by des fogarty and get yer facts ironed out! some of ye are talkin absolute shite.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Sean South of Garryowen
From: MartinRyan
Date: 08 Oct 08 - 04:35 PM

Thank you for that, GUEST. Good luck with the project - don't believe everything you read in books!

Regards


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Subject: RE: Origins: Sean South of Garryowen
From: GUEST,Joseph Mc Mahon
Date: 15 Sep 10 - 09:20 PM

The writer of this son sean costelloe is my father's uncle. his sister agnes costelloe was my father's mother who married john mc mahon!


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Subject: RE: Origins: Sean South of Garryowen
From: GUEST,al
Date: 11 Oct 10 - 08:59 PM

Hi all,
just to let every one know sean south wasnt from garryown but the oconnell ave henry st area of limerick,garryown was only used for the song as it was easier to rhyme,my late grand father also fought along side sean and his uniform was in his family home until information he recieved that the gardai (irish police) were going to raid his home it was then moved to clare st at the edge of garryowen,i would like to find its where abouts now so if any could help i would be grateful thanks.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Sean South of Garryowen
From: Bron-yr-Aur
Date: 09 Jan 11 - 03:17 PM

Malachy McCourt refers to this song in his book "A Monk Swimming." On page 127, he reveals that the author of the song, Sean Costelloe, was in fact his next door neighbour. Malachy had a party at his Mother's (Angela, of "Angela's Ashes") Limerick Council House where a few friends, including Ger South, who was Sean South's brother, were.


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