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Subject: BS: About the Good King Wenceslas!!!!!READ From: *#1 PEASANT* Date: 31 Dec 02 - 06:25 PM A little something from the Telegraph Wenceslas caper exposed by a wassail-blower December 21 2002 Oliver Pritchett applies the fearless techniques of tabloid journalism to a familiar story. The Good King's attempt to "draw a line in the snow" under the Feast of Stephen Affair will, sadly, fail to satisfy his critics. It was a bold ploy to come out with an emotional carol giving his version of events, but, until he is entirely frank, he will not persuade us that everything on that night was as deep and crisp and even as has been made out. These are the issues the Monarch still needs to clarify: 1.Why did Wenceslas look out? We are asked to believe that this was pure coincidence, that he happened to look out and yonder peasant just happened to be passing. But you don't just casually glance through the narrow slits in a castle wall; you have to actively make a decision to peer. To say the least, this is odd behaviour for a busy royal. 2.Just how "yonder" was the peasant? We have not been told where the fuel-gathering activities were taking place, but they cannot have been all that yonder from the royal residence because the page was able to identify the peasant by the light of the moon which brightly shone that night. 3.How was the peasant known to the page? The carol completely fails to deal with this issue, which has come to be seen as "the smoking pine log". The page knew the peasant's exact address but, then, as if to cover up this fact, added vaguely that it was "a good league hence". Was he instructed to use this form of words? 4.Why no sleigh? It is quite clear from the transcript of the carol that Wenceslas ordered the page to bring him wine, flesh and pine logs "hither" so that they could then take them "thither" - ie to yonder peasant. Would it not have been simpler to transport these bulky items in a one-horse open sleigh? Or was Wenceslas worried that the jingling of bells might attract attention? 5.What sort of winter fu-el was yonder peasant gathering? Until we have some sort of clarification there can be no end to the media frenzy. Even now, a poll of the people of Bohemia shows 76 per cent believe the peasant was not gathering fu-el, but coming a-wassailing, and 68 per cent believe that Wenceslas was involved in wassailing processes in spite of the strict anti-wassailing clampdown that was in force. 6.What were the precise weather conditions? The core of the case against Wenceslas is contained in what has been called the page's "killer solo". The king's trusted manservant and "rock" sings: "Sire, the night is darker now", which is directly at odds with the earlier statement that brightly shone the moon that night. This is the "lunar discrepancy issue" that has been much commented on. Meanwhile, the spin from the Wenceslas court specifically mentions the rude wind's wild lament, which surely would have made the page's frail treble inaudible to the king, who was allegedly marching ahead loaded with flesh, wine, etc. 7.What lies behind the footprints story? The whole Wenceslas case rests on the claim that "forth they went together". The suggestion that the page trod boldly in his master's steps sounds like a story dreamt up afterwards to fit the facts. Until we have a definitive statement the suspicion remains that Wenceslas was acting as a lone philanthropist. 8.Had Wenceslas met the peasant before? In his carol he specifically asked: "Yonder peasant, who is he?" So why would he trudge out alone in the snow to meet him? 9.Where is the peasant now? Callers to the dwelling right against the forest fence yesterday found the place deserted. This inevitably leads people to wonder if he has been nobbled by Wenceslas Castle. Why can't he be produced to give his side of the story? Until he does so, the tabloids' "merry gentlemen" story still has legs, as we say in this business. We sympathise with Wenceslas, who has to keep a lot of pine logs in the air, and we are ready to believe it may have been an error of judgement and a case of a bored monarch who wanted to wassail, but we need to know the facts. It's a matter of trust. The Telegraph, London |
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Subject: RE: BS: About the Good King Wenceslas!!!!!READ From: rea Date: 31 Dec 02 - 11:08 PM veryvery silly. really. Wenceslas was a bohemian King. He did things in a very Bohemian manner. What more do you need to know? Of course these English make no sense of him - he is a medieval Boheme! *grin* |
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Subject: RE: BS: About the Good King Wenceslas!!!!!READ From: GUEST,Q Date: 31 Dec 02 - 11:26 PM Seems to me you could take any historical or fictional character and do the same thing. The poor man was martyred at the age of 27, after being Duke (not king) for five years. |
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Subject: RE: BS: About the Good King Wenceslas!!!!!READ From: GUEST,leeneia Date: 01 Jan 03 - 12:11 AM Thank you for posting that, #1 Peasant. I enjoyed it a lot. As I type, I am gritting my teeth in irritation at the "music" pummeling my house from the lads next door. They are celebrating the New Year with loud rock music. A new feature of rock music seems to be a drummer or drummer-substitute which doesn't even have rhythm. I will probably locate and set up a fan to drown it out. My point is that that your posting is a random act of friendliness which I much appreciate when contrasted with the behavior of my neighbors. |
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Subject: RE: BS: About the Good King Wenceslas!!!!!READ From: Jeanie Date: 01 Jan 03 - 06:26 AM Royals... footmen... passing on unwanted gifts...secret trysts with peasants...where have I heard that somewhere before ? - jeanie |
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Subject: RE: BS: About the Good King Wenceslas!!!!!READ From: C-flat Date: 01 Jan 03 - 06:33 AM It seems there were latter-day spin doctors at work even then! |
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Subject: RE: BS: About the Good King Wenceslas!!!!!READ From: Jeanie Date: 01 Jan 03 - 06:34 AM ...but, as Rea said, all this happened a long time ago in Bohemia. Such things would be totally unthinkable in jolly old England (even in Twillingsgate). - jeanie |
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Subject: RE: BS: About the Good King Wenceslas!!!!!READ From: *#1 PEASANT* Date: 01 Jan 03 - 10:02 AM Thanks! Thats the trouble with excess sobriety- turns folk to rockers. I am always sort of amused by folk telling the story of their new years eve outings. Generally these are folk who never go out or drink all that much. They describe complex efforts to obtain reservations or tickets for events which are basically fancy places to go to drink to excess. I have no trouble doing that at home. The ideal set up is to visit a few neighbors. Trouble is that all my neighbors are suburbanite louts who if visited would poison me with lite beer and yellow plastic no milk added cheese. (I think I shall make a sign: ENABLER WANTED APPLY WITHIN) The same is true of those solstice concert things. Sort of like the silly group the Pirates Royal do around here. People actually pay money to see people on stage do pretend festiviites- the Christmas Revels etc....Shit....get rid of the tickets and the electronic amplification, pick up some drinkables and a joint of ham wheel of cheese and a good bread and take over the nearst parking lot. Folk musicians should be condenmed for encouraging the perpetuation of this custom. For the same money all could eat and drink well. Instead the suburbanite louts are taken advantage of and only the band eats and drinks....We need to educate the public concerning proper celebration and not simply pick their pockets. Another problem with pop folk music is that it likes to hype the bawdy. The only reason for this is to get the sexual organs of the audience members to expand which tightens the pants and forces the wallet out on the floor making pocket picking much less difficult. For many one must realize, hyping the bawdy aspects is like cheering on the olde Yellow Bittern who regardless of the size of its pecker will never get through the ice. Conrad |
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Subject: RE: BS: About the Good King Wenceslas!!!!!READ From: Dave the Gnome Date: 01 Jan 03 - 08:31 PM But of course good king Wenslaslas was king of Bohemia. He took a lot of stick for helping that peasant and decided that he needed to make up for it by doing things for himself more. Hence the later song... Bohemian rap? So! DIY Oh dear. I think I'll go to bed... DtG |
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Subject: RE: BS: About the Good King Wenceslas!!!!!READ From: Dave Bryant Date: 02 Jan 03 - 12:20 PM I thought that a league was seven miles - the king and page would have had to have good eyesight to see the peasant at that distance in the daylight, let alone moonlight. Perhaps they were using some sort of infra-red telescope. Could the peasant have been employed in espionage actvities for Wenceslas and did he need an urgent report from his agent ? Perhaps the "logs" were those drawn up from the peasant's previous reports. |
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Subject: RE: BS: About the Good King Wenceslas!!!!!READ From: Hollowfox Date: 02 Jan 03 - 12:26 PM Leenia, a set of good speakers aimed at their house and some bagpipe recordings might do the trick. Remember though, timing is everything. *evil grin* Hollowfox |
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Subject: RE: BS: About the Good King Wenceslas!!!!!READ From: GUEST,leeneia Date: 02 Jan 03 - 12:58 PM You're on the right track, Hollowfox, but mere bagpipes aren't evil enough. Have you ever heard a bowed psaltery? It'll vibrate the fillings right out of your teeth. |
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Subject: RE: BS: About the Good King Wenceslas!!!!!READ From: Schantieman Date: 03 Jan 03 - 11:46 AM Can you get at their electricity supply? |
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Subject: RE: BS: About the Good King Wenceslas!!!!!READ From: TheBigPinkLad Date: 03 Jan 03 - 04:29 PM But was the carol written in a language other than English? If an Englishman asks you if you "fancy a look out" he doesn't want you to peep through the window, he wants you to come out and play. |
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Subject: RE: BS: About the Good King Wenceslas!!!!!READ From: GUEST,Q Date: 03 Jan 03 - 05:16 PM Good King Wenceslas was written in English by John M. Neale (printed in 1853). There was an earlier carol to the same tune. Masato discussed this in another thread; I believe some editions of the Oxford book of carols referred to Neale's effort as doggerel. I will try and find the thread. "Fancy a look out" is dialect. |
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Subject: RE: BS: About the Good King Wenceslas!!!!!READ From: GUEST,Q Date: 03 Jan 03 - 05:20 PM See thread 42524, posts by Masato at 03 Jan 02, 10:35 AM, and Kytrad, 03 Jan 02, 0317 PM. Earlier tunes --- |
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Subject: RE: BS: About the Good King Wenceslas!!!!!READ From: TheBigPinkLad Date: 03 Jan 03 - 05:31 PM Dialect? I can't think of any region of England where 'fancy a look out' would not be a common expression. |
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Subject: RE: BS: About the Good King Wenceslas!!!!!READ From: GUEST,Q Date: 03 Jan 03 - 06:04 PM Sorry, should have said slang. |
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Subject: RE: BS: About the Good King Wenceslas!!!!!READ From: Dead Horse Date: 03 Jan 03 - 06:12 PM "Fancy a look-out?" has an entirely (some would say unsavoury) different meaning to an old sea-dog! |
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Subject: RE: BS: About the Good King Wenceslas!!!!!READ From: GUEST,petr Date: 03 Jan 03 - 06:20 PM Good King Wenceslas (or Vaclav) was never a king but died a prince over a 1000 years ago. He was assassinated (by his brother) on his way to prayer. |
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Subject: RE: BS: About the Good King Wenceslas!!!!!READ From: *#1 PEASANT* Date: 03 Jan 03 - 06:33 PM Good King Wenceslas (An article for the December 1992 Deep Cove Crier) Source:http://www3.bc.sympatico.ca/st_simons/cr9212.htm One of the best loved Christmas Carols is the 129-year-old carol: Good King Wenceslas. In 1853, John Mason Neale chose Wenceslas as the subject for a children's song to exemplify generosity. It quickly became a Christmas favorite, even though its words clearly indicate that Wenceslas 'looked out' on St. Stephen's Day, the day after Christmas. So Good King Wenceslas is actually a Boxing Day carol! For a tune, Neale picked up a spring carol, originally sung with the Latin text 'Tempus adest floridum' or 'Spring has unwrapped her flowers'. This original spring tune was first published in 1582 in a collection of Swedish church and school songs. Jolly Old St. Wenceslas Who was King Wenceslas anyway? Wenceslas was the Duke of Bohemia who was murdered in 929 AD by his wicked younger brother, Boleslav. As the song indicates, he was a good, honest, and strongly principled man. The song expresses his high moral character in describing King Wenceslas braving a fierce storm in order to help feed a poor neighbour. Wenceslas believed that his Christian faith needed to be put into action in practical ways. Wenceslas was brought up with a strong Christian faith by his grandmother St. Ludmila. Wenceslas' own mother Drahomira, however, joined forces with an anti-Christian group that murdered Wenceslas' grandmother, and seized power in Bohemia. Two years later in 922 AD, the evil Drahomira was deposed, and Good King Wenceslas became the ruler. He became Bohemia's most famous martyr and patron saint. His picture appeared on Bohemian coins, and the Crown of Wenceslas became the symbol of Czech independence. Intergenerational Appeal Even as a young child, I remember feeling moved as I sung this unusual carol. Why does Good King Wenceslas have such a deep and lasting impact on its hearers? Perhaps it is because there are so many levels of meaning to this carol. A child may hear one thing, an adult may hear another. I find that I can sing it again and again, and new meaning continues to pour forth from the carol. Recently the phrase 'Fails my heart, I know not how, I can go no longer' really spoke to me. It reminded me that sometimes there are times in our lives when life and its stresses seem to overwhelm us, and we feel that 'we can go no longer.' The response of Good King Wenceslas was most interesting. He said: 'Mark my footsteps, my good page, Tread thou in them boldly: Thou shalt find the winter's rage freeze thy blood less coldly.' Wenceslas reminds us that when we are all alone, life can feel very bleak. It is at such times that solidarity with another human being can help 'our blood freeze less coldly'. Wenceslas affirms that we are not alone, and subtly points to the basic Christmas message that Jesus our Master will never leave us in the cold. In His Master's Steps In the last verse are the memorable words: 'In his master's steps he trod, where the snow lay dinted.' The author John Neale, an Anglican priest, shows us here that the essence of true living is learning to walk in our Master's steps. All of us need a Higher Power to help guide us along our journey. Jesus said: "If anyone would come after me (and tread in my steps), he must deny himself and take up his cross and follow me." Our challenge each Christmas is to look beyond the toys and tinsel, to see 'the Master's steps.' The Reverend Ed Hird Rector, St. Simon's Anglican Church, North Vancouver ed_hird@telus.net |
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Subject: RE: BS: About the Good King Wenceslas!!!!!READ From: *#1 PEASANT* Date: 03 Jan 03 - 06:37 PM And more about the author: t is by these and similar hymns that most of us know Neale, if we know him at all. But Neale's achievements in other areas as well deserve our recognition. Neale was born in London, England, the son of a clergyman, his father dying when he was five years old. At Cambridge (1836-1840), Neale became a High Churchman, and developed a fascination with church architecture. Even at this youthful age, Neale participated in the catholic revival of the Established Church, as he and some friends founded the Cambridge Camden Society of antiquarians. Their periodical promptly addressed itself to the dilapidated condition of many English church buildings; their recommendations were very influential in the Victorian campaign of church construction, and they came to have many supporters in Church ranks. Americans apt to think affectionately of the tastefulness and charm of English churches will be impressed by the descriptions of ruinous buildings encountered by Neale and his contemporaries. Neale also crusaded against the ugly stoves that were placed in some churches to heat them. One issue of The Ecclesiologist, for example, recorded "a large Arnott stove" in the middle of the chancel, whose flue rose to the height of the priest and crossed his face before exiting the building via a hole in the glass of the north window. Neale especially raged against the high walled box pews—"pues" or "pens," the Society called them—where wealthy families sequestered themselves in the midst of the common people. In their pews, they might recline at their ease upon sofas, and one local aristocrat even ate lunch during the service. The Cambridge Society championed the cause of "Victorian Gothic." The edition of a medieval text on ecclesiastical symbolism that Neale and a friend prepared set forth their convictions about architectural details. Neale's health prevented his remaining a parish priest (he was ordained in May 1842), but, in his semi-invalidism, he had much time for antiquarian and scholarly endeavor. From May 1846 on, he was Warden of Sackville College, an institution resembling that of a fictional Victorian clergyman, Anthony Trollope's "Warden," Septimus Harding. Like Harding, Neale gave much thought to church music. Neale held that the hymns of Isaac Watts and other popular composers imparted erroneous doctrine, as well as offending against taste. So in 1842, for example, Neale produced Hymns for Children. However, aside from his carol Good King Wenceslas, it is not Neale's original compositions that are most widely recognized, but his translations and adaptations of ancient and medieval works, which he worked on throughout his life. The various editions of the annotated hymnal he and his associates prepared—the Hymnal Noted—and his hymns of the Orthodox churches have contributed hymns such as those listed above. It is estimated Neale and his collaborators produced over 400 hymns, sequences and carols. Another object of Neale's interest was the history of the Eastern Churches. In 1847, Neale's book on the Patriarchate of Alexandria appeared. In 1850, it was followed by a General Introduction to the Orthodox church of the East. A third volume, edited by George Williams, appeared in 1873. One aspect of Neale's outlook not dwelt upon much by his biographers is his conviction that divine judgment was the lot of those who appropriated property that had been consecrated. With an associate, in 1846 he published, anonymously, an updated edition of Sir Henry Spelman's History of Sacrilege. The book shows how disasters, the failure of the male line, and/or great excesses of moral depravity came upon persons who took land that had been given to the Church, or their successors. When such lands had belonged to the Church, revenues from these lands had been employed to feed the hungry as well as to support the sometimes luxurious way of life of certain clergymen. Here we see the antiquarian and the man of Christian compassion united. Such a union is very evident in Neale's foundation of the Society of St. Margaret, one of the first Anglican conventual sisterhoods (1855). As Warden of Sackville College at East Grinstead, Neale came to know the poverty of some of the nearby villagers. Fever victims might die unattended. So his sisters of charity began their work, with Neale as their pastor-confessor-administrator. However, the sisterhood was verbally and even physically attacked as a wedge of "Romanism" in the English Church. In 1857, the "Lewes Riot" occurred, instigated by an Evangelical clergyman whose daughter had been one of the Sisters, and who had died of scarlet fever, bequeathing 400 pounds to the Society. Neale was used to opposition by then. Years before the Society's foundation, Neale had been inhibited by the Bishop of Chichester from exercising his priestly duties in the village, evidently on account of the bishop's resentment of Neale's church furnishings, etc., at Sackville College. John Mason Neale had his lighter side, too, as evidenced by a joke he once played on John Keble. As related by Neale's associate G. Moultrie and quoted in A. G. Lough, The Influence of John Mason Neale (London, SPCK 1962, p. 95): [Neale] was invited by Mr. Keble and the Bishop of Salisbury to assist them with their new Hymnal, and for this reason he paid a visit to Hursley Parsonage [Keble's residence]...[Keble] related that having to go to another room to find some papers he was detained a short time. On his return, Dr. Neale said, "Why Keble! I thought you told me that the Christian Year was entirely original!" "Yes," he answered, "it certainly is." "Then how comes this?" And Dr. Neale placed before him the Latin of one of Keble's hymns for a Saint's day—I think it was for St. Luke's. Keble professed himself utterly confounded. There was the English, which he knew that he had made, and there too no less certainly was the Latin, with far too unpleasant a resemblance to his own to be fortuitous. He protested that he had never seen this "original," no, not in all his life! etc. etc. After a few minutes, Neale relieved him by owning that he had just turned it into Latin in his absence. Never in his lifetime was Neale adequately appreciated in his own church. Neale's Doctor of Divinity degree was conferred by Trinity College, Hartford, Connecticut, in 1860. At Neale's funeral the highest ranking clergymen were Orthodox. Neale could never have guessed how much he accomplished for the church and for generations of Christians who would sing the hymns he gave Source:http://www.cyberhymnal.org/bio/n/e/neale_jm.htm |
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