Help with Spanish translation

Subject: Help with Spanish translation
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 23 Jan 03 - 06:12 PM

Today I'm working on a cantiga, a song in about the Virgin Mary from 13th-century Spain. Here's what is written above the song. Would someone who speaks Spanish please tell me what it means?

"Como Santa Maria levou a alma d'un frade que pintou o seu nome de tres coores"

Thanks.

Subject: RE: Help with Spanish translation
From:
Date: 23 Jan 03 - 06:27 PM

Well, it looks like the Babelfish translation kicks back on a few of the words.

Like Santa Maria levou to soul d'un frade that pintou or seu nome of three you copray

Subject: RE: Help with Spanish translation
From: GUEST,ClaireBear
Date: 23 Jan 03 - 06:36 PM

I recalled that cantigas are often in Portuguese, so I tried that translation and it did only a little better:

As Saint Maria d'un took the soul frade that it painted its name of tres coores

Good luck with the rest!

Subject: RE: Help with Spanish translation
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 23 Jan 03 - 06:44 PM

I'm not even sure it's Spanish.

Subject: RE: Help with Spanish translation
From: GUEST,Taunus
Date: 23 Jan 03 - 06:45 PM

As the Holly Mary raised the soul of a priest that painted her name in three colours...
Taunus.

Subject: RE: Help with Spanish translation
From: Allan C.
Date: 23 Jan 03 - 07:08 PM

Yep, Taunus has it right.

Subject: RE: Help with Spanish translation
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 23 Jan 03 - 10:53 PM

Thank you, Taunus. Now that you've translated it, I can see the relationships. I suppose that "coores" was supposed to be "colores."

Subject: RE: Help with Spanish translation
From: Sorcha
Date: 23 Jan 03 - 11:15 PM

And Taunus' "Holly" should be "Holy".......

Subject: RE: Help with Spanish translation
From: open mike
Date: 24 Jan 03 - 04:11 AM

or else she was drinking coors

Subject: RE: Help with Spanish translation
From: leprechaun
Date: 24 Jan 03 - 05:37 AM

That looks more like Portuguese to me, unless it's an earlier form of Spanish. Olde Spanish?

Subject: RE: Help with Spanish translation
From: artbrooks
Date: 24 Jan 03 - 08:38 AM

If it's 13th Century, it could be any of a number of vernaculars (proto-Portuguese, Galician, Cantabrian, Catalonian, Castilian, etc), none of which are exactly "Spanish."

Subject: RE: Help with Spanish translation
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 24 Jan 03 - 08:45 PM

Now, Sorcha, we all knew that holly should be holy. It's no big deal.

The quotation above isn't from the cantiga itself, it is an explanatory line written above the cantiga to tell what it is about. I'm sure it's in some modern language.

I wish there was a way that I could easily share music with fellow mudcatters. I have put the music into Noteworthy and have added drones and chords. My husband reached for a drum while I was still working it out at the piano.

I got it from a Spaniard at the early music workshop in Magdalena, New Mexico. Here are a few words from the text:

A que por muygran fremosura este chamada Fror das frores, mut mais lie praz quando lle loam seu nome que d'outras loores.

I guess if they can have the word "loores" they can have the word "coores." Perhaps they based their paints on beer in the olden days.   

Or maybe it's early German. Isn't "das" German for "the"? :)

Subject: RE: Help with Spanish translation
From: Allan C.
Date: 24 Jan 03 - 11:10 PM

"das" is has evolved from the contraction of two words, "de" and "as" which are "of" and "the" (pl, f). The quotation in your first post is, as far as my limited knowledge of Portuguese can attest, current-day Portuguese. I feel sure that the other one is from a more ancient form. A guess at some of the first part is that "r"'s are sometimes used instead of "l"'s. Thus, "este chamada Fror das frores" becomes, "este chamada Flor das flores" or "it is (or possibly you are) called Flower of flowers".

Subject: RE: Help with Spanish translation
From: GUEST,Q
Date: 24 Jan 03 - 11:34 PM

Some Old Timers in New Mexico can still speak some of the medieval Spanish of their far distant immigrant ancestors, as leeneia probably can attest.
I have one cd of these old cantigas, but wouldn't attempt translation without knowledgeable help. Some have Galician influences, others are Asturian, Catalan, Euskari etc. (noted by Artbrooks, above).
The intricacies of Spanish medieval religion (Catholicism in Europe at that time not as uniform as it is today) will affect the translation as well. Far different from modern Spanish. (Just remember your struggles with Chaucer in school).
Some of the cds put out by Alia Vox have translations.